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#54824 - 05/21/11 06:35 AM ONA original and authentic sources required
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
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I am beginning a major study of ONA which I will then write up.

I require official sources of information which I can quote as a basis of authority on ONA:

1. academic journals or studies that have been published.
2. books or essays by the original founder Myatt or Long.

I have been in the past given many sources, but I only wish to zero into the official versions. These versions must be available as a permanent record for third parties to check up. I am looking at the core works not secondary material, that which was adapted by some individual nexion. They must be primary sources created by the individual who gave birth to the ONA Mythos and will be credited to that author : Myatt/Long.
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Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54825 - 05/21/11 07:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Oh boy, I sure hope your study of the ONA will be as splendid as that of Satanism you did.

Breathe Mabon, let out the hot air from time to time.

D.

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#54826 - 05/21/11 07:53 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
I am beginning a major study of ONA which I will then write up.

Book or internet? If book, mainstream publisher?

 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
academic journals or studies that have been published.


To date, those few that make mention of the ONA - with two exceptions - are unscholarly and biased.

Here's one example -

http://pointyhat.wordpress.com/scholars-of-mundaneness/

The two exceptions are the papers presented by Senholt and George Sieg at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology Conference 'Satanism in the Modern World' (November 2009CE).

But even they contain some factual errors.

 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
books or essays by the original founder Myatt or Long.


A good pdf which includes a facsimile copy of Naos as circulated by the ONA in 1991CE - and all the texts required to understand the seven fold way - is available at

http://darkimperium.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/the-requisite-ona/

Nearly all the texts in that pdf are by Anton Long. Some of his other texts are on his blog at

http://antonlong.wordpress.com/

which contains only material written by him.

Almost all the material on the ONA main site at

http://www.nineangles.info/

is written by Long.

If you have academic credentials, then perhaps Professor Kaplan might help as he has a microfilm of some very early ONA material given to him by Long in the 90's.

 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
They must be primary sources created by the individual who gave birth to the ONA Mythos and will be credited to that author : Myatt/Long.


If you have a query about authorship, then PM me and I'll find out if it's by AL or not.

So, perhaps you could outline your research credentials? If not here, then PM me.

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#54827 - 05/21/11 08:11 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ SinisterMoon
1. David Myatt is the original founder of ONA, has he written any books or essays?
a. if so what are they called.
b. where can I source them.

2. Anton Long. I am under the impression that Anton Long is David Myatt. Am I wrong?
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#54828 - 05/21/11 08:54 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
ONA PARADIGM
WHY? (PURPOSE)
Why does the paradigm exist?

WHAT? (KNOWLEDGE)
The Why brings about the What.
What is the paradigm?
PRIMARY KNOWLEDGE (Original sources)
SECONDARY KNOWLEDGE (Secondary sources based on original sources)
All other sources rejected.

HOW? (UNDERSTANDING)
The What brings about the How.
How does the paradigm manifest?
Process from Cause (What) to Effect (Where).

WHERE? (ACTION)
The motion of the paradigm in action and effect.
The manifestation of the paradigm into reality.
Case studies.

APPROACH
Deductive: A,B,C... therefore X.
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#54829 - 05/21/11 08:59 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
David Myatt is the original founder of ONA

Myatt is the alleged founder of the ONA, or is alleged to have taken it over in or around 1971 CE.

There is no evidence to substantiate these allegations. Myatt has always denied being Anton Long and being involved with the ONA.

 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
has he written any books or essays?

Thousands upon thousands of essays and pamphlets over some 40 years - from neo-nazism, to Jihadism, and also about his 'numinous way' and pre-Socratic philosophy.

Books? Translations of Sophocles and Aeschylus. Collections of poetry (as DW Myatt). Blah blah

Funnily enough, one of Myatt's collections of poems was mentioned in a recent novel (Power Down) by Ben Coes, who worked in the White House under two presidents.

 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
where can I source them.

His website and blog at

http://www.davidmyatt.info/

http://davidmyatt.wordpress.com/

His 'numinous way' philosophy at -

http://www.davidmyatt.info/numen/index.html

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#54831 - 05/21/11 09:37 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
Diavolo Offline
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Our dear friend Mabon will not as much study ONA as it will be another exercise in pomposity. I find it strange he doesn't know where to find the information while this obvious lack clearly didn't hinder him from sharing his views about ONA before. The question this raises is how much of what he says is to be taken serious at all since research and information don't seem to have much importance upon the formation of his opinions?

A quick search would provide all information he desires within mere seconds so one can wonder if the intention of this post doesn't serve another purpose.

I admit I'm curious about the conclusions of his "study" and if, will they be as hilarious as his conclusions about Satanism.

D.

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#54832 - 05/21/11 09:38 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
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@ Sinister Moon
Thank you for these sources.

Anton Long and David Myatt will be jointly attributed to the foundation of the ONA paradigm. I will "allege" that Long and Myatt may be the same person based on the book by the journalist Nick Ryan, "Into a World of Hate".
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#54834 - 05/21/11 09:44 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
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@ Diavolo

I admit ONA have got me interested and I am now taking more than just a casual interest in the paradigm. I am a mere outsider looking into the ONA and I am sure to make errors, I am also sure you and those associated with the ONA will be quick to point out any errors.

What I would like to do is ask questions and source original and error free material to reduce the errors. There is a lot of junk and incorrect material on the internet so I thought it better to ask the experts where the quality authentic material would be found.
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Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54836 - 05/21/11 10:10 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
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OF DAVID MYATT

I refer to the following:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070305140910/http://www.dwmyatt.info/jstatement_new.html

JOURNALISTS
I have dealt with and do deal with journalists, and I identify with Mr Myatts issues about them.

ORIGINAL SOURCE
I always try to go to the original source.

ESSENCE
Myatt will know about the Plato Theory of Forms. I am interested in the Form rather than the Particular of the Form. In the same way I am interested in the Essence of ONA not the outer shell like nazism or other nexion expressions. I am however interested in how the ONA paradigm expresses as an "effect" or an "action" upon the external world.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/21/11 10:11 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#54840 - 05/21/11 12:54 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida

 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Myatt will know about the Plato Theory of Forms

Yep, and in his role as philosopher of 'the numinous way' he's very critical of it, citing Heraclitus, as in -

http://davidmyatt.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/the-abstraction-of-change-as-opposites-and-dialectic/

http://davidmyatt.wordpress.com/2010/12/01/on-the-nature-of-abstractions/

But this is OT re Satanism surely.

 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
I am interested in the Essence of ONA not the outer shell


The essence is - in ONA language - to Presence The Dark. By nexions - whether human beings, whether some causal form (like sinister tribes, gangs, politics, religion), whether by sorcery, blah blah

Like Anton Long said recently -

 Quote:
"We shapeshift because we are sinister shapeshifters. We are both practical and esoteric. We see forms as causal forms, as a means. If they are useful, and work, fine. If they do not work for us, we try something else.... Being practical and esoteric, we can and will use and will develope whatever means are suitable to achieve our aims and goals." http://antonlong.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/ethnicity-tribes-and-the-sinister-aeon/


To presence = to manifest in our causal continuum.

The Dark = the sinister numen of the acausal (aka *evil*) one aspect of which is Satan.

Why? To disrupt, cause chaos, to have fun, to experience exeatic joy, to develop (evolve) ourselves, to be like Satan, blah blah blah

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#54848 - 05/21/11 02:54 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ SinisterMoon

Yes, Mr Myatt has uncovered a major flaw in the Theory of Forms. Plato would say a Form is eternal and unchanging. Heraclitus would say that all things are in constant change, including the Forms. By induction I would say Heraclitus is correct, since:

1. What is seen in the world is a shadow of a Form, a particular.

2. If the particular is dependent upon the Form to change, as like we move, our shadow moves, it would not be able to change if the Form does not change.

3. The particulars are noted to be in motion and change in the world.

4. Therefore the Form must be changing.
_________________________
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#54854 - 05/21/11 06:01 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Zophos Offline
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Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
mabon2010:

 Quote:
Yes, Mr Myatt has uncovered a major flaw in the Theory of Forms. Plato would say a Form is eternal and unchanging. Heraclitus would say that all things are in constant change, including the Forms. By induction I would say Heraclitus is correct, since:

1. What is seen in the world is a shadow of a Form, a particular.

2. If the particular is dependent upon the Form to change, as like we move, our shadow moves, it would not be able to change if the Form does not change.

3. The particulars are noted to be in motion and change in the world.

4. Therefore the Form must be changing.

Completely ignoring your absurd misrepresentation of Plato and historically unverifiable (but probably false) claim that Heraclitus even accepted the existence of Forms, there is one very simple point which may throw a kink into your impenetrable reasoning: conclusions are only as strong as their premises. In this case, your fundamental premise is that "[w]hat is seen in the world is a shadow of a Form, a particular." For the rest of your argument (and it is deductive, not inductive) to be convincing, you must first show that the above claim is true.

Good luck. Plato developed the Theory of Forms approximately 2,500 years ago, and neither he nor anyone since has been able to show that they are likely to exist. Who knows, perhaps the individual with no understanding of Platonic philosophy will surprise us all. Personally, I doubt it.


Z.
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#54866 - 05/22/11 12:46 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
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@ Zophos

I reject your argument.

1. I am dealing with ancient Greek philosophy not scientific method which had yet to be standardised at the time of Plato.

2. Heraclitus and Plato are in two different time periods. Plato reacted to Heraclitus with his Theory of Forms.

3. It is Myatt, and now I, that run Heraclitus and Plato's philosophies against each other two thousand years later.

4. If a Form exists or not, and what a Form is, is irrelevant in this instance of comparison of two ancient philosophies.
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Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54868 - 05/22/11 04:23 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Zophos Offline
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Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
mabon2010:

 Quote:
1. I am dealing with ancient Greek philosophy not scientific method which had yet to be standardised at the time of Plato.

The scientific method is irrelevant to this discussion since, by definition, the Forms are neither spatial nor material. Any debate on the issue is therefore non-scientific.

In your own words, "By induction [sic] I would say Heraclitus is correct." To whatever extent your analysis is properly historical, the fact remains that you took a philosophical position of your own by affirming and attempting to defend the correctness of Heraclitus's view (the fact notwithstanding that your representation thereof is incorrect). As such, the onus falls on you, not Plato, to prove the more foundational claim that Forms are likely to exist at all, which you have yet to do.


 Quote:
2. Heraclitus and Plato are in two different time periods.

Scholarly estimates (in this case relatively good ones) place Heraclitus's death approximately 47 years before Plato was born. While not contemporaneous, the two of them hardly lived in "different time periods."


 Quote:
3. It is Myatt, and now I, that run Heraclitus and Plato's philosophies against each other two thousand years later.

And?


 Quote:
4. If a Form exists or not, and what a Form is, is irrelevant in this instance of comparison of two ancient philosophies.

The alleged irrelevance of defining a Form is not only ridiculous—it would be impossible to make a meaningful comparison of Plato and Heraclitus without having an advanced philosophical and textual knowledge of what Plato believed about the Forms—but also self-contradictory for you to assert, since in your own posts you have attempted to define both what a Form is according to Plato and what a Form must be according to Myatt's bogus understanding of Heraclitus. (In fact, that was the entire point of the first post I quoted!) Again, you did not merely compare two philosophies, but advocated one over the other, which obligates you either to give reasons for your conclusion or to discard your claim.

Before dispensing more verbal diarrhea on your blog and YouTube channel, it might first be wise for the Exalted Poobah X° of Monadic Luciferianism to gain a more accurate and thorough understanding of basic Western philosophy.


Z.
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Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#54870 - 05/22/11 05:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Zophos
Myatt's bogus understanding of Heraclitus.

Bogus?

Your evidence for this opinion of yours is what precisely?

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#54871 - 05/22/11 06:07 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Zophos
Again, you fall into the trap of applying science to philosophy. Philosophy goes beyond science because it has the freedom to take positions and ideas without any limitations that science must create to be valid.

You suppose Forms do not exist, but to Plato they did exist, and since this debate is about Plato's philosophy against that of another philosophy about the Forms, if they exist or do not exist is not relevant to the topic in hand.

Plato applied properties to Forms, one that they were unchanging, thus running against the idea of Heraclitus that all the Universe is changing.

It is relevant to the discussion to consider that if a Particular of an object in the Universe is dependent upon its Form but is changing it must logically be influenced by the Form, thus the Form must be changing to cause the Particular to change, thus raising an issue of the validity of the property of a Form being a constant unchanging thing.
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#54876 - 05/22/11 09:47 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Holy shit mabon, do you EVER know wtf you are talking about? I am starting to think you must get sexual pleasure from the sound your keyboard makes, and migraines from devoting any thought at all to anything, ever.

Philosophy is 'the love of knowledge'

Science MEANS 'knowledge', etymologically speaking.

Collections of unsupported, baseless assertions such as your usual fare are by no means 'philosophy'. Plato isn't like 'luciferianism', you can't just make him up as you go along.

Just thought it would be fun to point that out, which really has nothing to do with anything other than to show you missed the entire point and context of the post you were responding to.
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#54878 - 05/22/11 09:52 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Dan_Dread]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Dan_Dread

Both Luciferianism and Plato are philosophies.

If you require me to debate you the difference between science and philosophy I am game.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54880 - 05/22/11 10:00 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Mabon my friend, there is a step between information and conclusion which is called understanding. I've mentioned many times before you seem to skip this quite essential step and rush toward conclusions.

What you fail to see is that it doesn't improve your credibility nor the actual worth of your conclusions.

D.

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#54881 - 05/22/11 10:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Looks like philosophy can be added to the list of words mabon doesn't understand, right along with 'axiom', 'thinking' and 'introspection'

Here's a hint mabon - Philosophy, like science, must be rational and internally coherent, by definition. You are anything but a philosopher, and the incoherent mess you describe as 'luciferianism' is anything but a philosophy.

Now you may return to misunderstanding the on topic posts, because this isn't going anywhere.
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ideological vandal

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#54885 - 05/22/11 11:58 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Dan_Dread]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo
I know the steps Knowledge ... Understanding ... Conclusion.
I dealt with this via a video that was talked about at 600Club on a previous occasion..

@ Dan_Dread
Originally this topic was about ONA sources then dealt with Plato and Heraclitus, not Luciferianism.

If you want to debate difference between science and philosophy then create a new topic and I am game for a debate with you.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/22/11 12:01 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54886 - 05/22/11 12:15 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3075
You know the steps but simply don't take them.

Your behaviour is quite disturbing, posting links from something you just learned is not displaying an understanding and certainly not conclusive.

Do me a favour and read every fucking text you came to post and try to GET them instead of getting in endless discussion where you'll surely draw the shortest straw.

Take a break and do some actual study, go read a book.
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#54888 - 05/22/11 12:27 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Dimitri]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Dimitri
Which brings me back to the original purpose of this topic.
I asked for original sources for the ONA so I can read them.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/22/11 12:28 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54890 - 05/22/11 01:06 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
As long as the subject of ONA source material has been raised, I would ask the same question today that I first posed [without an answer] to Myatt/Long/Brown back in the '80s: What is your source for the "Nine Angles" other than my "Ceremony of the Nine Angles" in the Satanic Rituals, and what is your explanation of the significance of those angles?

Back then M/L/B fell all over himself denying any ripping-off from the "C9A", but as I recall never cited any other source, nor explained why "nine angles" should have any particular other significance.

So does the "ONA" name have any actual significance original to it, and if so what?
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#54892 - 05/22/11 01:47 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3075
 Quote:
Which brings me back to the original purpose of this topic.
I asked for original sources for the ONA so I can read them.

Already given by Sinistermoon, retrace your steps.
It is also in my experience that most of their material can be easily found when you search them on the internet. With a little luck (and if you manage your own act..which I pretty much doubt), you might be able to come in contact with a few interesting people from ONA.


 Quote:
As long as the subject of ONA source material has been raised, I would ask the same question today that I first posed [without an answer] to Myatt/Long/Brown back in the '80s: What is your source for the "Nine Angles" other than my "Ceremony of the Nine Angles" in the Satanic Rituals, and what is your explanation of the significance of those angles?

Back then M/L/B fell all over himself denying any ripping-off from the "C9A", but as I recall never cited any other source, nor explained why "nine angles" should have any particular other significance.

So does the "ONA" name have any actual significance original to it, and if so what?

As far as I'm concerned, the message is far more interesting/important than the "original" source. You might disagree with it, but does it really matter that the composing of the message was somewhere in a café or some dark cellar?

Perhaps it is needed to get a better understanding of its history and message. Why would you care?


Edited by Dimitri (05/22/11 01:56 PM)
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#54893 - 05/22/11 02:01 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
What is your source for the "Nine Angles" other than my "Ceremony of the Nine Angles" in the Satanic Rituals, and what is your explanation of the significance of those angles?

Good question, and thanks for bringing it up - since it's a matter which has been raised many times in the past two decades. There is a whole section on the ONA website devoted to this, under the heading (surprise, surprise) The Nine Angles.

http://www.nineangles.info/o9a-nine-angles-notes.html

http://www.nineangles.info/nine-angles-texts-part1.pdf

http://www.nineangles.info/nine-angles-texts-part2.pdf

The answer - or answers - are given in various ONA texts there and elsewhere, from one of which this is a quote -

 Quote:
My actual reason for first using the term Nine Angles, some time before this discovery in Arabic texts, to describe the traditional “order” I had inherited from my Lady Master, was essentially to do with my other research – since my late teenage years - into tensorial mathematical representations of Space-Time, for I had already, due to my own Occult researches, concluded that in order to rationally understand magick, one must posit a bifurcation of Time itself, something I rudimentary described in the first section of early editions of my Emanations of Urania MS, coining the term Cliology to describe this rational apprehension. After my initiation – and after about two weeks of learning and study with my Lady Master and her daughter – I sensed a similarity between this research of mine, and their aural traditions regarding the Septenary System and the Tree of Wyrd (described by a double tetrahedron), and it seemed to me then that I might be able to find some mathematical connection between the seven plus two emanations of the Septenary (described in one short traditional MS by a double tetrahedron, each of which had nine mathematical angles), and the Tensor which had nine non-zero symmetric components and which formed one part of an equation I had used to connect normal (causal) Space-Time with that new type of non-causal Space which I then had tentatively called the acausal.

Hence the descriptive name I choose for the tradition I had been Initiated into and which traditions I had inherited: the Order of Nine Angles, signifying as that name did not only the basic, and inherited tradition of seven plus two emanations (the Septenary), but also my own theory regarding causal and acausal Space and Time.”


Myatt here refers to a tensorial representation of space-time - a nexion - which has nine non-zero elements.

The Arabic text is Al-Kitab al-Aflak and the explanation is that the nine angles represent what Arabic philosophy referred to as Azal, Dhar and Zamal.

That is, that Arabic alchemy and Arabic mystical philosophy - which Myatt (oops, I meant Anton Long) was familiar with - has a nine fold system. Nine emanations of the one, the one (the unity) described as Allah.

Also, it should be remembered that *angles* refers to *dimensions* as explained thus,

 Quote:
the term "angle" as used by the ONA esoterically and fundamentally means one type of, one particular species of, a Cosmic dimension – as opposed to the ordinary type of dimension we are familiar with in the causal continuum, and which causal dimensions can be re-presented mathematically and which causal dimensions form the basis for the causal science of Physics.

In causal terms, an angle is simply a convenient geometric construct – an abstraction based upon the linearity of causal Time, on the simplicity of causal cause-and-effect, and an abstraction which can be re-presented in Euclidean (two-dimensional causal) geometry by the meeting or intersection of two lines, and also re-presented in spherical (three-dimensional causal) geometry, and Riemannian-type (four-dimensional causal, or metrical) geometry. All these types of causal "angles" are inert; mere causal abstractions, even when we are describing that causal-angle which re-presents causal Time, because this type of Time (the causal type) is simply a physical (lifeless, un-numinous) cause-and-effect.

In complete contrast, an acausal "angle" is some-thing that lives, that has or which can be imbued with, life: that is, it has or it can be imbued with acausal energy. Or expressed another way, an acausal "angle" re-presents or can be used to re-present, acausal energy, and thus also re-presents the very essence of Life, of what animates physical matter and makes that matter "alive".

Source - http://antonlong.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/the-nine-angles-beyond-the-causal-continuum/


But no doubt this is mythos to many.

As for the Arabic text mentioned, I quote a recent reply on a forum for ONA members -

 Quote:
" There are hundreds of thousands of untranslated Arabic manuscripts in libraries, mosques and Islamic schools all over the world. There are prolly an equal number of printed Arabic books never translated never mind cataloged in the west.

One library - in Cairo (Al Azhar) - visited by my source contained tens of thousands of Islamic manuscripts and a much vaster number of books almost unknown in the west.

According to this (reliable) source - there are libraries in India and Pakistan and Iran which also contain tens of thousands of Islamic manuscripts never translated from the Arabic, with many of these never having been cataloged in book form with the catalog published in *the west*."


Here's another quote about the origin of the ONA use of the term nine angles -

 Quote:
Can we talk about the origin of the term the Order of Nine Angles? Was that taken from another, pre-existing, American based, group, as some people have surmised and claimed?

Not to my knowledge. According to my sources, the term was taken from a medieval alchemical manuscript, written in Arabic, and entitled Al-Kitab al-Aflak. What many of those involved with esoteric matters outside the ONA do not know is that many of the Arab alchemists, from whom many of the Western alchemists learned their trade or gained their knowledge from, considered there were nine emanations, or angles, and that there were different forms of Time – azal and dhar and zamal – for example. Myatt studied such matters, and developed, extended, these ideas, and gave them a modern slant. Hence causal, acausal, nine angles, and so on.

Source - Questions About David Myatt – An Interview with Richard Stirling


Edited by SinisterMoon (05/22/11 02:21 PM)
Edit Reason: added quote

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#54894 - 05/22/11 02:10 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
You suppose Forms do not exist, but to Plato they did exist...


No, they didn't. The Platonic Forms are the perfect, non-material representations of things - i.e. Platonic Form of cat, Platonic Form of stupid etc. etc. I will admit that I am no expert on Plato and/or his philosophy but I do know that he never claimed or believed the Forms actually existed.

 Quote:
...and since this debate is about Plato's philosophy against that of another philosophy about the Forms, if they exist or do not exist is not relevant to the topic in hand.


Actually, it is relevant. If you don't understand the philosohpy of one of the people you are contrasting philosophies with then you really have no business doing it in the first place.


_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#54896 - 05/22/11 02:24 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Side note.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORDER-NINE-ANGLES-Sa...=item255f5443a3

Seems that Aquino has been giving us valuable information in various posts for free.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GROCERY-GURU-ANTON-L...=item588de18c55

The seller is selling a bunch of LaVey's artwork. I forgot who wondered/asked what happened to it.

M

ps. I was wrong upon further inquiry it is just Stanton coping the original of LaVey's work.


Edited by Morgan (05/22/11 02:26 PM)
Edit Reason: added ps
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#54897 - 05/22/11 02:43 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Morgan]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Ah, where's volume 2? Didn't they have time to fake that as well? \:\)

It's possibly interesting that such *ONA items* are now not only being advertised but also seem to sell. Suckers!

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#54898 - 05/22/11 03:13 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Morgan]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Mugs pay through the nose for Ixaxaar on Ebay like they do for anything Occult orientated, you see, the materialists like to collect leather bound books and order them on their posh bookshelves in OCD fashion.

The Order of Nine Angles books are free online but Lulu.com sells them in hardback and paperback, but at extortionate prices. The Heresy Press is back now I think, and it is best to buy ONA books and the excellent Musick from there methinks, I have Naos and Codex Særus and I'm keeping those, cost me about forty quid for both including delivery, but that was from Lulu.com when The Heresy Press was down.

I thought about it and invested in an electronic pdf. reader. Hence, I am selling most all my books except the Nietzsche ones.

I have ONA literature on mine as well as Ixaxaar, and other naughtiness. You can go anywhere with a pdf. reader, you can even read in the dark, in any comfortable position you like, or go to the woods late and read as many pdf. as you liek without having to choose beforehand and lugging your expensive books around that could get wet or otherwise ruined, if nocturnal hermeticism your thing that is.

I recommend Mabon read the old 80's MS, they aren't hard to come by and there isn't even major faults in the supposed "mutated" versions, because it's not doctrine but something to let you figure things out for yourself. Observing the effects of the ONA in Nexions is another way to view the cause as when an idea moves from one to the minds of others, it evolves and this is why change is a good thing and why the current state is the only state of the ONA. I am not speaking for others but there you go. My opinion.

Surely others got the same eye opener as I did insofar as The Order of Nine Angles advocating, in a sinister way, "how to think" rather than any kind of "what to think" which is what I got, and still get from it as a whole. Quite different than a religious memetic virus and instead something which forces one to think for oneself, because, as far as I have realised, every ONA MS has a MS that is it's opposite.
_________________________


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#54899 - 05/22/11 03:53 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ 6Satan6Archist6
Theory of Forms was created by Plato. The famous Allegory of the Cave to support his idea of the Forms was also by Plato. If Plato did not think the Forms existed then he would not have put forward his theory, and we would not be talking about them.

RE: ONA sources
Thanks to those that provided them.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/22/11 03:55 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54901 - 05/22/11 04:42 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Morgan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Morgan

The seller is selling a bunch of LaVey's artwork. I forgot who wondered/asked what happened to it.

M

ps. I was wrong upon further inquiry it is just Stanton coping the original of LaVey's work.


Yeah... Stanton's been busy again.

LaVey doodled A LOT. He and I would sit in restaurants waiting for dinner to be served and doodle. We were at he McArthur Park restaurant in San Francisco one night with him, me, Tari and Cookie all doodling on our place settings, just having a good time. The manager came over when they delivered our food and asked if we would sign the doodles and if he could have them. We thought nothing of it, so we gave them to him.

Next time we came in, he had them framed and hanging on the wall. I dunno how long they stayed there. I haven't been back there since.

The artwork of Dr. LaVey's that I was wondering about were his wonderful oil paintings that were hanging throughout the house. Some of them were quite bizarre and stunning. I'd hate to think they're just sitting in an attic somewhere.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#54903 - 05/22/11 04:46 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Theory of Forms was created by Plato.


Really?! Well thanks for the enlightenment, professor.

 Quote:
The famous Allegory of the Cave to support his idea of the Forms was also by Plato.


You need to slow down so I can take better notes. So, you're telling me that Plato also wrote The Allegory of the Cave? Wow, your knowledge of philosophy (that is in no way rudimentary) astounds me.

 Quote:
If Plato did not think the Forms existed then he would not have put forward his theory, and we would not be talking about them.


They exist as an idea much in the same way that beauty "exists".

In order to see exactly what a form is and how it differs from a material object, we need to look at the first two of the properties that characterize the forms. The forms are transcendent. This means that they do not exist in space and time. A material object, a basketball, exists at a particular place at a particular time. A form, roundness, does not exist at any place or time...

And just because we can talk about something doesn't speak to the existance of what we are discussing. I can talk about a magical kangaroo that flies around via a rocket that fires out its asshole and hands out free cans tuna to all who ask but that doesn't make it real. Nor does it mean that I think it actually exists.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#54904 - 05/22/11 04:55 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
So, you're telling me that Plato also wrote The Allegory of the Cave? Wow, your knowledge of philosophy (that is in no way rudimentary) astounds me.


Err 6, you might want to double-check your information. Hint: it's also called Plato's Cave.

D.

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#54906 - 05/22/11 05:04 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
@Hegesias

It really irks me to see profane materialists buying up limited edition occult hardbacks and trying to peddle them off at extortionate prices on auction sites. I honestly don't expect anything less, but I would much prefer it if they showed more respect to the authors and publishers.

I once attempted to produce my own personal, illustrated, nicely-formatted book version of several ONA documents due to the lack of decent print versions. I re-rendered all of the NAOS sigils in high-definition but stopped in the middle of 'fixing' the Greek and Latin in BBS when I realized I was simply making too many changes. I have facsimile printouts in a big binder with texts from other LHP groups, so I decided to just stick with the originals.

I am admittedly a rabid bibliophile. If I had the time and money I would render my own versions of every occult book I and get them all bound in obscenely decorative leather binding.

@mabon

By dividing 'science' and 'philosophy' you seem to belie a modern prejudice of what constitutes both. By 'science' you probably mean postmodern empiricism-- a 'science' proper is a systematic approach to knowledge. For instance, materialistic rationalism is a science. Hermeticism is also science. They are both scientific because they posit a method of obtaining objective knowledge, despite being radically different.

Furthermore, I recommend you study the ONA at face value before you try to dissect it, instead of attempting to compare it to other ideas as you go along.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#54907 - 05/22/11 05:07 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
SinisterMoon:

 Quote:
Your evidence for this opinion of yours is what precisely?

Admittedly, my conclusion is dependent on the presumed accuracy of mabon2010's representation of David Myatt, which was probably a mistake in itself. To whatever degree, however, that mabon's line of deduction is in fact similar to that of Myatt (whose articles on the subject strike me as an unoriginal pastiche of Heidegger, Critical Theory, and postmodernism liberally peppered with Greek terminology), both are totally unconvincing.



mabon2010:

 Quote:
Again, you fall into the trap of applying science to philosophy.

Oh no, not an application of science to philosophy! People might get the impression that the two were virtually synonymous throughout most of Western history! (The term "scientist" wasn't even invented as a separate designation until the mid-nineteenth century, and didn't fully eclipse the term "natural philosopher" until a relatively short time after that.)

Can you name any area of philosophy that has not been thoroughly permeated by the discoveries and methodology of science?


 Quote:
Philosophy goes beyond science because it has the freedom to take positions and ideas without any limitations that science must create to be valid.

Christian clergy hold the same position about theology. Indeed, your above statement reminds me greatly of the early medieval view that science could only serve as a "handmaiden of theology."

As Dan_Dread noted, "Philosophy, like science, must be rational and internally coherent, by definition." I would add as a corollary that any body of thought (and I use that word loosely) built upon claims which are totally unverifiable even in principle is a faith-based ideology, not a philosophy. Asserting that philosophy transcends all scientific investigation by fiat simply because it allows one to take positions without limitation (a falsehood, as already said) is asinine, and belies your impoverished understanding of the demands placed on anyone who expects to have his claims taken with less than a salt mine, let alone accepted by other thinking people.


 Quote:
Plato applied properties to Forms, one that they were unchanging, thus running against the idea of Heraclitus that all the Universe is changing.

A superfluous excerpt from Philosophy 101. What is your point?


 Quote:
You suppose Forms do not exist, but to Plato they did exist, and since this debate is about Plato's philosophy against that of another philosophy about the Forms, if they exist or do not exist is not relevant to the topic in hand.

I can do little better than to cite Dan_Dread once more: "Holy shit mabon, do you EVER know wtf you are talking about?"

This is the last time I will clarify: you explicitly took a position on Plato's Theory of Forms, moving your analysis from the purely comparative and historical domain to one requiring philosophical justification of your own claims—namely, that you "would say Heraclitus is correct" and that "[w]hat is seen in the world is a shadow of a Form, a particular." If you are unable or unwilling to provide this, don't (given your acumen and argumentative capacity thus far, silence might be worth considering), but don't expect anyone with a high standard of proof to take your ideas or claims seriously. Life is short, and people have better things to do than ponder the minutiae a pseudo-philosophy promulgated by someone who can't even formulate his thoughts or views coherently.


 Quote:
It is relevant to the discussion to consider that if a Particular of an object in the Universe is dependent upon its Form but is changing it must logically be influenced by the Form, thus the Form must be changing to cause the Particular to change, thus raising an issue of the validity of the property of a Form being a constant unchanging thing.

This portion alone shows that you have absolutely no grasp of Platonic philosophy. I am not a Platonist by any means, but philosophical and historical analysis require that their topic be correctly represented in points of fact. That you are oblivious to the ontological reasons for the immutability of the Forms, to mention only one crux of ignorance in your above conjecture, tells me yet again that you very simply have no idea what you're talking about. Read and learn.

Plato on Knowledge and Forms: Selected Essays

On Ideas: Aristotle's Criticism of Plato's Theory of Forms

Plato's Introduction of Forms



Dan_Dread:

 Quote:
Looks like philosophy can be added to the list of words mabon doesn't understand, right along with 'axiom', 'thinking' and 'introspection'

Agreed. His, like those of so many other would-be Magi, poobahs, "innovators," and spiritual gurus, is little more than a solitary language game in which evidential reasoning is displaced by a web of jargon whose meanings must first be tacitly accepted for the remainder to amount to anything more than sophomoric regurgitation and flimsy assertion.



Diavolo:

 Quote:
Err 6, you might want to double-check your information. Hint: it's also called Plato's Cave.

I think 6Satan6Archist6's remark was intended to deflate mabon's compulsive need to demonstrate his knowledge of basic philosophical concepts.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#54908 - 05/22/11 05:19 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I don't see what I need to double-check. The statement(s) you quoted of mine were sarcastic.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#54909 - 05/22/11 05:22 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Morgan]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Wicked Wanda
Side note.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORDER-NINE-ANGLES-Sa...=item255f5443a3

Seems that Aquino has been giving us valuable information in various posts for free.

Good grief! Those were just a few routine letters of no especial significance, at least not to me. The stuff I've spent some time on is all there on my webpage for free, of course.

I've repeatedly seen the same thing happen to old printed editions of my Church of Satan - up there on eBay for big bucks, when the most updated/extensive edition is once again free as an ebook.

 Originally Posted By: WW
it is just Stanton coping the original of LaVey's work.

Someone will doubtless pay his price.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#54911 - 05/22/11 05:49 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
I don't see what I need to double-check. The statement(s) you quoted of mine were sarcastic.


Oh sarcasm, that's a relief, I feared for a minute you were Mabonized.

D.

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#54913 - 05/22/11 06:04 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
LMFAO! Not a chance in hell. If that ever happens, please, break my legs. ;\)
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#54916 - 05/22/11 06:15 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
My appreciation to Sinister Moon for the detailed response concerning Myatt's use of "Nine Angles", but all it does is refer to some [undated] interest in nine "emanations" or "dimensions", both occultfuzzy terms which are clearly not the same thing as geometric angles. [As a sidebar, where do these "emanations"/dimensions" fit into the ONA's philosophy, e.g. as tools?]

The Nine Angles of the Church of Satan's Order of the Trapezoid were quite simple and straightforward: the Pentagram and the trapezoid conjoined. Anton discussed 9's significance in "The Unknown Known" of the Satanic Rituals, of course; and my "CNA" was written correspondingly. To my knowledge the "CNA" is the first time the term "Nine Angles" has appeared published in a magical context.

Anton's interest in angles per se came from two principal inspirations: Frank Belknap Long's The Hounds of Tindalos and William Mortensen's The Command to Look. Concerning the "CNA" I discussed the Nine Angles in my 1977 Nyctalops article (Appendix #74 of The Church of Satan), and later went into them in further detail in the Order of the Trapezoid's Runes:

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A.
COMMENTARY ON THE SEAL OF THE NINE ANGLES
- by Michael A. Aquino VI°, GME.Tr.

Generally speaking, some of these angles were taken from Pythagoras, who talked in terms of the significance of "numbers" rather than "angles." From my readings on the subject, I am convinced that Plato's discourses upon geometry and the significance of the various "Platonic solids" are essentially taken from Pythagoras' work, just as Pythagoras cam up with these notions following his lengthy stay in Egypt as a priesthood initiate. Fascinating how these "trails" just keep going backward until they vanish into the mists of pre-recorded history.

Bear in mind that the Ceremony of the Nine Angles was composed within the conceptual and iconographic limits of the Age of Satan. Nor was it intended to be an extensive, exhaustive "last word" on the angles or other included concepts; it was conceived as a nœtic vision and GBM expression. The following comments pertain to my ideas at that time and deliberately avoid embellishing the CNA with the more sophisticated concepts to which I have since been sensitized through my own work and the many brilliant examinations by other Setians.

FIRST ANGLE: Unity. The concept of the Universe as the totality of existence. Note that this does not admit to monotheism (except in the sense of Deism), because there is no room for conceptual distance between a God and a worshipper. The "laughing one" is Azathoth, who is "blind" and an "idiot" because in a condition of perfect unity there is naught else to see, not any knowledge of anything else possible. [Understand, of course, that I was taking H.P. Lovecraft's gods rather beyond his story-telling version of them. I don't in the least represent these as Lovecraft's own ideas, although I rather think that he would not have found fault with such elaborations.] In geometry a singularity identifies a locus only; there is no extension in any direction. Even the locus is "both there and not", since it has no dimensions at all. Hence there are an infinite number of loci, for example on a one-inch-long line: an interesting mathemagical paradox.

SECOND ANGLE: Duality. The profound and necessarily total change of unity into symmetry and polarity (and its symbolic representations: Horus and Set, Yang and Yin, etc.) The "orderer of the planes and angles" is Yog-Sothoth, who is, as the shaper of energy and matter, described as the author of Earth in its matter/energy/evolutionary configuration. Note that in pure duality there is no room for judgment between the two; there is only one or the other. In duality geometry creates a single extension (a line).

THIRD ANGLE: This is a very critical stage, because the existence of a third element introduces the notion of choice between the two opposites, either absolutely or relatively (Aristotelian system) or of choice to aspire or not to aspire to universal perfections (= Platonic/Pythagorean system). This is Nyarlathotep, otherwise Set, otherwise Lucifer/Satan, otherwise Prometheus, otherwise Thoth, who has created the power of perspective and the independent psyche of judgment. Here "knowledge" becomes possible. In geometry we now have the triangle, which is the most rigid of figures and also creates a two-dimensional plane. Note that, per the Book of Coming Forth by Night, the Horus/Set relationship actually fits into a threefold matrix rather than a twofold one. Set is an independent Intelligence with perspective upon the non-conscious objective universe on one hand and the chaos of the anti-objective universe (HarWer) on the other. The simple Horus/Set duality results from primitive Aristotelian thinking.

FOURTH ANGLE: The Ram of the Sun (Shub-Niggurath/Amon) is a manifestation of the "awakened" human psyche as energized by the Messenger. It is thus that "Satan" is known to humanity: a personalized reflection, as it were, of the results of the Messenger's Working. Satan's other name (Lucifer) is that of light and enlightenment, hence the "brilliance" of the Nine Angles. With the number four we have geometrically a three-dimensional displacement in space. Hence existence of matter and energy becomes possible. Hence time becomes possible, as the measurement of change in matter and energy.

FIFTH ANGLE: Humanity as the physical vehicle for the expression of the Satanic psyche as discussed in the Fourth Angle. Concept of the body as a necessary medium for the self-realization of the psyche, at least in its early stage. Translation of this into physical representation of supra-energy/matter Forms such as Set via the creation of images, building to temples, etc. A temple with five trihedrons is a four-faced pyramid (as Giza), the 4/5/9 seal is the seal of the Order of the Trapezoid: a marvel of integrated, interrelated 4/5/9 values. As noted elsewhere, even the addition of 4+5+9 = 18, which takes you into the "returning" qualities of 9 as expounded upon in Anton LaVey's "Unknown Known" in The Satanic Rituals. In geometry 5 creates the Pentagram, hence the Golden Section, hence the concept of perfection. this is why to Pythagoras (and his priestly mentors) 5 was the most sublime of numbers, and why the Pentagram was used as the seal of the Pythagorean Brotherhood.

SIXTH ANGLE: If Crowley considered his Tenth Æthyr to be accursed, then this would be the accursed (or should I say "hexed"!) of the Nine Angles. It is the hexagon and hexagram (also the seal of the Jews, authors and proponents of the world's most nihilistic and self-hating monotheism.) The hexagon corrupts the Golden Rectangle; it adds an angle and a line to the Pentagram and pentagon, thus destroying them. Six is symmetry obese and unnecessary (two and four are quite adequate for the principle). The seeds of the destruction of the hexagonal forms are carried within them, however, for they necessarily embrace two trapezoids (the four) and the pentagrams defined by those trapezoids (the five); hence 4+5 (the nine).

SEVENTH ANGLE: the destruction of the status of monotheism by the addition of a line/angle to the hex. The legacy of the First Beast of Revelation and his sevenfold Seal and Star of Babalon (A.'.A.'.). The forces of the Æon of Horus overcoming those of the Æon of Osiris. Yet the only thing that can be said of seven is that it is an effective destroyer of six. It has no creative properties of its own; it has neither the strength of symmetry nor the magical powers of its asymmetrical predecessors (1,3,5). Proponents of six-isms instinctively fear seven: They warn about such things as the seventh son of a seventh son, of the Seven Towers of Satan in Yezidi legend, of the Seventh Seal, of the Jewel of the Seven Stars. Seven is thus a harbinger of doom to six: a shadowing-forth of the Apocalypse to come. Geometrically and numerically, like the Æon of Horus, seven has an "identity crisis". Additions or multiplications or powers of seven yield all sorts of random values and relationships.

EIGHTH ANGLE: The temple containing the trihedral angles is a truncated pyramid: the power of the trapezoid perfectly manifest in a Golden Section-based three-dimensional structure. Thus its architects are the Masters of the Realm (the all-embracing term for the IV*+ in the original Church of Satan): the Sorcerers who beam from their towers the Powers of Darkness to rebuild the world corrupted by six and shattered by the seven, and their seal is the Seal of the Order of the Trapezoid (seal of the Priesthood of the original Church of Satan).

NINTH ANGLE: the culmination of this dynamic process: the Black Flame in its perfection: the "will to power" of Nietzsche in a glory of desire: the extension of the Enlightened Will and Initiated Psyche throughout all dimensions of space, time, and thought: what in the Æon of Set would be Uttered as Xeper.

Since the Church of Satan & Temple of Set, there have been a great many appropriations of their terminology, and I would have to see something more than a tortured jamming of "Arabic emanations" into an Angled glass slipper to be convinced that Myatt wasn't just one more.

Does this keep me awake nights? Nope.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#54917 - 05/22/11 06:32 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
LaVey doodled A LOT. He and I would sit in restaurants waiting for dinner to be served and doodle. We were at he McArthur Park restaurant in San Francisco one night with him, me, Tari and Cookie all doodling on our place settings, just having a good time. The manager came over when they delivered our food and asked if we would sign the doodles and if he could have them. We thought nothing of it, so we gave them to him.

Next time we came in, he had them framed and hanging on the wall. I dunno how long they stayed there. I haven't been back there since.

The MAP in SF is long-gone, but reappeared in Palo Alto in 1981. Don't know if your doodles made the trip too ...

 Quote:
The artwork of Dr. LaVey's that I was wondering about were his wonderful oil paintings that were hanging throughout the house. Some of them were quite bizarre and stunning. I'd hate to think they're just sitting in an attic somewhere.

You can see some of them in the plates of my Church of Satan, some in Burton Wolfe's The Black Pope, and some in Satanis on YouTube. If I'd had any idea that 1975 was going to happen, I would have made my amateur photographic tour of 6114 (originally done for the Grottos around the country) much more detailed, including direct shots of all those oils. I would also have chained Anton to the big organ in the RC and not let him loose until I got some recordings of him playing his really wonderful classical stuff - nothing at all like that rinky-dink synthesizer crap on the Barton-era records.]
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#54919 - 05/22/11 06:40 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
6Satan6Archist6
Okay, so we have established that Forms do exist to Plato, and that it would be rather silly to assume that Plato would put forward his Theory of Forms if he did not consider they existed. This would be as silly as Einstein putting forward his Theory or Relativity and then telling the world at the same time he did not believe in his theory.

You have made a reasonable position to say that using the scientific method we would be unable to pin down the Forms, which is where philosophy comes in, for philosophy goes the extra mile with ideas that science is unable to.

Forms exist indeed outside of the material universe, which means they cannot be seen by our senses, and that was a drawback that Plato did note, and philosophers have been working on since.

As an idea Forms exist, since you have thought about them. Take your example of Time and Space, you made an assumption that Time and Space exists whilst you were rejecting Forms. Think about it when I say Time and Space do not exist "out there" but are mere human inventions existing only in our minds.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/22/11 06:43 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54922 - 05/22/11 07:08 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Zophos
Question: What is it like to be a bat?

Science would never be able to answer that question. Philosophy deals with questions like this, and shows the limits of how far any method can go. Nobody will ever be able to answer that question of what it is like to be a bat with any certainty unless they are a bat.

Of the comparison of Plato and Heraclitus over the question of if Forms change or do not I would like to see you do better than me. If you think you are better than me lets see you try.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54923 - 05/22/11 07:10 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: The Zebu]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
The only Ixaxaar books I am keeping are PanParadox and Gullveigarbok by Vexior. I'm after Liber Azerate in English. And then no more! Too much money, it's not practical for my income and as I end up reading ONA MS on pdf. the most, it's even more illogical to buy hardbacks like I do. Yes I like my collection, it feels foolish, I have a way about keeping my flat empty. I seem to dislike having things and don't like anything to accumulate.

I like what Bruce Lee's Tao says “Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless," I have a limited income and with the money I get from selling guess what I always buy with my money? More books. Just not ridiculously expensive ones anymore!
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#54927 - 05/22/11 07:47 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
. I would also have chained Anton to the big organ in the RC and not let him loose until I got some recordings of him playing his really wonderful classical stuff - nothing at all like that rinky-dink synthesizer crap on the Barton-era records.]


You know... it's remarkable. I spent night after night at the Black House, listening to the wonderful music he could just reel off from memory pouring out of the organ and keyboards and be mesmerized, thinking "this should be recorded." WHY DIDN'T I RECORD IT???? And some of his after work table-talk, when we were just sitting and chatting... and pictures. DAMN it... WHY DID I NOT TAKE MORE PICTURES FOR MYSELF? I did rolls of pics for him... just handed them over... never thought I might want copies... WHY?

Sorry... this has nothing to do with ONA shit... hell, who'll notice in the 20000 pages of the stuff over and over again anyway? It's like KUDZU.

But I know what you mean. It seemed there would always be time to do it. And time just has a way of slipping out and away from us. Carpe diem... hell, carpe secunda!
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#54937 - 05/22/11 11:01 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Hegesias]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
In regards to the "influences" of the ONA, even the most cursory glance at their system will show similarities with many different occult currents. The "Tree of Wyrd" and associated tarot paths, for instance, are patterned off of modern Qabalah. Their chants are derived from Gregorian hymns. The whole of NAOS simply screams "70's Chaos Magick", and the book's explanation of Aeonics might as well have been lifted from Liber Null.

Now some ONA initiates (I'm looking at you, SinisterMoon), might instinctively refute these claims, asserting the ideological purity of the Hebdomadry as an "Aural Tradition", and make some mentions of "acausal empathy"-- perhaps garnished with a quote from "The Septenary, Crowley, and The Origins of The ONA".

However, my intention is not to denigrate the ONA's esoteric integrity, but rather emphasize that it is not the symbolic/causal aspects that are important, but the method by which these aspects were synthesized by Long to produce an effective and frankly sinister manifestation of Satanism. Indeed, too many people confuse the origin of the symbols with the origin of the essential ideas that these symbols are intended to convey, which is the fundamental mistake that is responsible for most common misconceptions about the ONA.

I believe that the ONA is more influenced by their defiance of the CoS rather than any common origin. For instance, early editions of the Black Mass (such as those ascribed to the Temple of the Sun in the BBoS) include use of the Enochian Keys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Long may have deliberately excised this element from his final drafts to deliberately distance himself from LaVey and avoid accusations of derivativeness, regardless of whether or not the original context was influenced by the CoS. Again, just a suspicion.


Edited by The Zebu (05/22/11 11:02 PM)
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#54939 - 05/23/11 12:48 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Zophos
Admittedly, my conclusion is dependent on the presumed accuracy of mabon2010's representation of David Myatt, which was probably a mistake in itself. To whatever degree, however, that mabon's line of deduction is in fact similar to that of Myatt (whose articles on the subject strike me as an unoriginal pastiche of Heidegger, Critical Theory, and postmodernism liberally peppered with Greek terminology), both are totally unconvincing.

AFAIK Myatt has so far translated some of the fragments of Heraclitus, arguing that polemos is not the kampf of Heidegger. He also disagress with Heidegger about logos.

His central thesis relates to pathei mathos and the balance between arete and hubris, which he illustrates with examples from Aeschylus and Sophocles et al. Which brings him to empathy and the numinous. For Myatt, the numinous is what predisposes us not to commit hubris, with a knowing of the numinous often arising because of pathei mathos.

Now, just how is this "an unoriginal pastiche of Heidegger, Critical Theory, and postmodernism"? Where are pathei mathos, arete, hubris, empathy, and the numinous, in them?

As for Plato, Myatt is critical of him for reasons I admit I don't fully understand - quoting Plato and Diogenes Laërtius and then Heraclitus in Greek. But so far as I can tell, it's a criticism based more on philology than on some philosophical discussion of some 'theory of forms'.

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#54941 - 05/23/11 01:13 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
all it does is refer to some [undated] interest in nine "emanations" or "dimensions", both occultfuzzy terms which are clearly not the same thing as geometric angles.


Quite so - they're not geometric angles. It's good to have this cleared up at least.

As for them being "occultfuzzy terms" (a term which BTW I like!) I think I'll have to disagree with you.

The use of the term derives, like I think I mentioned, from Myatt's work which he called cliology, first circulated in the early 1970's, and his 'star game' which he developed when in jail in '72-73. The nine are the nine basic alchemical changes from the three fundamental alchemical substances, sulphur, mercury, salt - those familiar with Myatt's Star Game will know how the pieces change and move, as representations of the nexion that is 'the tree of wyrd' with its seven spheres/boards. In one of his early works (70's vintage) he links these nine with Jungian personality types as well.

So maybe they should be called 'occultmindfuck' terms as they lead to a complex labyrinth where the seeker comes across alchemy (Arabic and western), Jung, sorcery, mathematical reps of causal space-time, nexions, and last but not least the acausal.

As for being 'undated' - Myatt constructed a large version of his star game while in a monastery (76-78), where it languished for years in a corner of the carpentry workshop. Heck, it might even still be there! I've also been told a copy of one of his cliology works, distributed in the 70's, is in the British Library.

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#54942 - 05/23/11 01:43 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: The Zebu]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
my intention is not to denigrate the ONA's esoteric integrity, but rather emphasize that it is not the symbolic/causal aspects that are important, but the method by which these aspects were synthesized by Long to produce an effective and frankly sinister manifestation of Satanism. Indeed, too many people confuse the origin of the symbols with the origin of the essential ideas that these symbols are intended to convey, which is the fundamental mistake that is responsible for most common misconceptions about the ONA.

I agree, and that's the essence, really, which is why I quote it first. The ONA system works - especially the grade rituals and the practical sinister stuff - in producing/guiding sinister individuals who're very different from Setians, CoS members, and so on.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Now some ONA initiates (I'm looking at you, SinisterMoon), might instinctively refute these claims,

But yes, some of us sometimes take exception to claims that the ONA ripped off Crowley, Lovecraft, qabalah blah blah - and all of which claims have been dealt with elsewhere over the decades, and in some ONA texts, so I won't go into details here.

Anyone interested - and that's not many, if any - can find these ONA texts and make their own mind up. Which at the end of the day is what matters - that they find out for themselves and make their own judgement.

Personally, I've always found the *why* more interesting - *why* some seek to or may need to denigrate the ONA by claiming it's unoriginal; *why* many/most of those making such claims never present any evidence for their opinion; and *why* they have come to regard such stuff as the qabalah and Crowley and CoS as part of the western Occult tradition.

But I will say this - which I think you and some others understand - manufacturing a whole working effective esoteric mythos, however derived, is a work of magick in itself, and something few people have done, over the centuries. For often such a mythos is more effective and inspiring than what might be *the bland truth*.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I believe that the ONA is more influenced by their defiance of the CoS rather than any common origin. For instance, early editions of the Black Mass (such as those ascribed to the Temple of the Sun in the BBoS) include use of the Enochian Keys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Long may have deliberately excised this element from his final drafts to deliberately distance himself from LaVey and avoid accusations of derivativeness, regardless of whether or not the original context was influenced by the CoS. Again, just a suspicion.

Could be - but using Enochian made it into Naos, which is still around and still a basic text for them as follows the traditional seven fold way.

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#54944 - 05/23/11 03:26 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Clarence Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 61
Mabon,

I don't believe anyone has mentioned it in this thread, but the British Library holds some ONA goodies for anyone interested.

A friend of a friend informs me that permission from the author may be necessary to reproduce some of these works if you happen to reside outside of the UK. Which begs the question: how exactly do you gain consent from a fictitious entity? Hint - be creative.

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#54949 - 05/23/11 07:18 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Clarence]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Clarence
That is interesting information. So if I looked under the names of Long or Myatt would I find this information in the British Library?

I am unsure if Mr Myatt reads these 600Club boards but I may think of tracking him down and speaking to him in person since I live in Britain.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54951 - 05/23/11 08:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
may think of tracking him down and speaking to him in person since I live in Britain.

Good luck! Or should that be - *May the Dark Force be with you* \:\)

Given Myatt's association (past or otherwise) with Jihadi Islam, his praise of the Taliban, his association with Hamas, his visits to Iran - not to mention his alleged influence on Copeland et al - you can bet he's under surveillance by the security services, of not only the UK but I guess by the CIA as well.

Not to mention he's rumored to go around with an armed bodyguard (who, so the story goes, is/are recruited from the AoB brotherhood).

Loathe as I am to mention Tubby Woodentop (aka Blackwood) - he tried to find Myatt a year or so back and even offered a US$ 10,000 reward for Myatt's whereabouts. There we no takers.



Edited by SinisterMoon (05/23/11 08:23 AM)

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#54952 - 05/23/11 08:39 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ SinisterMoon
Yes, that "Dark Force" may be needed \:\)

It will be months before I do search for Myatt, if indeed I decide to do. At the moment I am just doing lots of reading. I move as fast as a snail at times.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54954 - 05/23/11 09:11 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I apologise if I am appearing to assume the ONA is "merely" Chaos Magic but that's all it ever was to me, a concept to tap my own potential rather than a fixed system to "follow", because ones preference of paradigm and actions has no rules, the ONA being the most intense expression of sinister potential (I still preference the MLO but it's part of a path to self mastery). People seem to think they can find something darker than Chaos Magic whilst missing the point that Chaos Magic is a lawless concept to get you there, by discarding a concept which is about synthesis one is bound to be bound to a fixation.

In a similar way Myatt and Pete Carroll, although differently, have done a similar thing with the dark arts as what Bruce Lee did with the martial arts. Synthesised a formless concept, progressive for the unique individual. Just my conjecture.

The only downside I can see about Chaos Magic is that some may require an absolute belief rather than to be the artisan of a cold dark reality where nothing is stable. The ONA explains this by expressing that all outward causal forms are only that.

Myatt's involvement with extremism under any guise is just that, he's a bad ass and will use anything, he's a sophisticated psychopath who is beyond the experience of the majority of people and their mundane fixations.

Blackwood and those he champions are cowardly shit stirrers, who puts a price on somebodies head out of envy? Blackwood does, he covets Myatt's achievements, I know people like this. Not only does he threaten Myatt in a cowardly way but bribes with money over honour, this defines Blackwood as suitable for conclusion.
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#54957 - 05/23/11 09:42 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Hegesias]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
Out of curiosity...
Why did Blackwood want to pay money to have Myatt tracked down? What purpose did Blackwood wish to achieve even if he did track Myatt down?

Strategy...
Useful to business and politics, like Sun Tzu, the ONA offers to me some useful strategy.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/23/11 09:42 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54960 - 05/23/11 11:15 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
Reporters and such can find Myatt every now and then-- it's not like he's the Yeti or something (despite some facial resemblance)-- but don't expect him to be receptive. Mentioning the ONA directly will probably bring no fruit; he's been denying any involvement with them for decades regardless of the evidence presented, and probably won't change his tune.

And unless you're packing some academic credentials or something, I'm guessing you'll be needing one hell of an excuse in case the authorities decide to question why you're seeking out someone considered to be a terrorist ideologue.

----

I'm assuming Blackwood wanted to track Myatt down so he could have some sort of face-to-face confrontation, from which Blackwood would obviously emerge victorious because he is the true founder of the ONA, and Myatt would grovel before his feet weeping and wishing he were as awesome as Blackwood. He would then write a blog about it and everyone on the internet would proceed to agree with him and join his e-Church, and then SATAN'S DOOMSDAY ARMY WILL FINALLY BE COMPLETE!

...mmm, sorry, got carried away there.


Edited by The Zebu (05/23/11 11:21 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#54962 - 05/23/11 11:23 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Strategy...
Useful to business and politics, like Sun Tzu, the ONA offers to me some useful strategy.


Apparently you did skip the step "study" too this time. Or did you really read and understood all which is provided already?

D.

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#54966 - 05/23/11 12:14 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: The Zebu]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I'm assuming Blackwood wanted to track Myatt down so he could have some sort of face-to-face confrontation

Here's what Woodentop wrote on his blog last year - tho' I won't pollute this forum with a link to his gibberish, so if anyone wants it, PM me for it or for a screenshot.

 Quote:
Woodentop wrote: "The Temples of Satan ups it’s ante to 10k for information leading to the whereabouts of Myatt in the United States or Great Britain, after verification of addresses by Temples of Satan members in Great Britain they found the letter Blackwood purchased to be a address used by a person knowing Myatt and not his personal address, after a visit by a Temples of Satan Reverend his location was discovered and we will be providing photographs of the apartment complex and of course photographs of the recently purchased letter from Myatt and perhaps a actual address, so those inclined to visit him can visit him or even perhaps better."


At the time he was crowing about some Myatt letter he said he gotten and was going to publish but never has. No surprise there then. He also was ranting about Myatt as terrorist and as enemy of America and enemy of every patriotic citizen or some BS like that.

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#54968 - 05/23/11 12:52 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo
"Study" is the same as "reading" to me, the process is in motion and will take many months. I see the potential of ONA ideas being applied to business and political situations.

KNOWLEDGE... UNDERSTANDING... ACTION : thats the stage by stage process for me.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54970 - 05/23/11 01:46 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
mabon2010:

 Quote:
You have made a reasonable position to say that using the scientific method we would be unable to pin down the Forms, which is where philosophy comes in, for philosophy goes the extra mile with ideas that science is unable to.

Bare assertion fallacy. You have neither countered my objections nor defended your own position.


 Quote:
Forms exist indeed outside of the material universe...

Your claim is syntactically meaningless on two accounts.

(1.) A non-spatial, atemporal entity by definition cannot exist anywhere.

(2.) To say that an entity exists "outside" the universe may be akin to saying that an entity exists five minutes before the beginning of time: the latter word ceases to have any meaning when ensconced in a frame of reference that logically precludes it. I say that this may be the case because we don't yet know whether or not there are other universes. (Interestingly, if a definitive answer to that question ever appears, it will be science, not philosophy, which provides it.) If Forms exist, however, your position would seem to entail that they exist outside of all physical universes, making your claim susceptible to both of my objections regardless.


 Quote:
...which means they cannot be seen by our senses, and that was a drawback that Plato did note, and philosophers have been working on since.

Notably, professional academic philosophers overwhelmingly reject Plato's Theory of Forms. Isn't that interesting?


 Quote:
As an idea Forms exist, since you have thought about them.

Are you seriously attempting to conflate the mind's ability to conceive a worldview with the facticity of that worldview?

As an idea the phlogiston theory of combustion exists, but that doesn't make it a factual description of reality.


 Quote:
Take your example of Time and Space, you made an assumption that Time and Space exists whilst you were rejecting Forms. Think about it when I say Time and Space do not exist "out there" but are mere human inventions existing only in our minds.

Astounding! Do you realize that you could initiate the Copernican turn in Western thought by revealing the philosophical implications of this idea?

Unfortunately someone just beat you to the punch—by 230 years.


 Quote:
Question: What is it like to be a bat?

Science would never be able to answer that question. Philosophy deals with questions like this, and shows the limits of how far any method can go. Nobody will ever be able to answer that question of what it is like to be a bat with any certainty unless they are a bat.

One of my degrees is in Philosophy; I know what it is and isn't, you condescending prick.

The logical errors and layers of unjustified assumption in your division are sufficiently numerous that I flatly refuse to address them all. As if you hadn't shown yourself to be pompous and laughable enough already, you now bring forward a famous tagline from Thomas Nagel under the delusion that an appeal to subjectivity as such will save your pathetic ideology. Not so.


 Quote:
Of the comparison of Plato and Heraclitus over the question of if Forms change or do not I would like to see you do better than me. If you think you are better than me lets see you try.

Quite frankly, there is nothing for me to do; my posts have already elucidated far more concerning Greek philosophy than yours have.

As a case in point, consider the simple fact that you have again restated a false claim concerning Heraclitus (namely, that he believed in changing Forms), despite being roundly criticized and refuted by yours truly. Even you acknowledged in a prior post that the Theory of Forms began with Plato. How, then, could Heraclitus have postulated that Forms change if he didn't accept their existence? If you can't speak with logical consistency on something that basic and simple, I certainly have no reason to believe that you are prepared for more advanced philosophical debate.

_____________________________


This is my last response to you. I among others have posed counter-arguments to your claims, and none have been met with even meagerly satisfying rebuttal. You have been amply shown to lack the capacity for sustained critical thought, and I have the utmost confidence that 600 Club members who read this thread will easily recognize your ineptitude in attempting to debate cogently. You have nothing of importance to say, and I am content in knowing that you will continue to be dismissed here until you grow out of your need to ignore major objections and parrot banal trivia from Western philosophy. In my life I have communicated with over two dozen other self-proclaimed scholarchs of would-be pioneering philosophical movements, and not one among them has remotely impressed me. Welcome to my list.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#54971 - 05/23/11 02:01 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
@ Diavolo
"Study" is the same as "reading" to me, the process is in motion and will take many months. I see the potential of ONA ideas being applied to business and political situations.

KNOWLEDGE... UNDERSTANDING... ACTION : thats the stage by stage process for me.


Ok then, please tell me how you're going to apply ONA ideas to your business and political situations. Some examples might not be bad either should it not be completely clear to me. I'm slow at times you know.

D.

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#54972 - 05/23/11 02:12 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Zophos
I would like to thank you for your input, which has been enlightening and which I continue to reflect upon.

I am aware that you have produced some high calibre input and I have not done your input justice with my own response. I would point out that my original intention of this topic was to solicit information on sources on ONA that I could then study, it was not my intention to get into deep arguments on Plato which is why I have been less enthusiastic in my manner of response.

I would just make two observations:

1. Heraclitus took the position the whole of the Universe was changing. Plato later introduced his Theory of Forms and the idea Forms were unchanging. By induction one would consider that as a Form would be seen as part of the Universe, and the Form was unchanging, that it would conflict with the idea that the Universe was changing as per Heraclitus. It was I who put Heraclitus and Plato against each other, even if they did not share an idea of Forms, because I can, and I gain gnosis from these what-if games.

2. The Theory of Forms is not discredited, it is a concept that still is out there to be discussed, as we have done now. CS Lewis writer of the Narnia Books used the Theory of Forms for his basis of the Shadowlands, and the Matrix films were also influenced by the Theory of Forms. This theory, even if it is no longer shared by many remains in play, and it has a supporter in me. Why I support the Theory of Forms is a huge topic in itself and can be pursued another day, however, I wish to return this topic back to its original purpose : ONA sources.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54973 - 05/23/11 02:17 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo
As I am a student at the KNOWLEDGE stage, I would learn the Knowledge of the ONA, then I can take that Knowledge as the foundation in which to build understanding from in how to apply it to politics and business. I merely see a potential from the scraps of knowledge that I have gathered from my many interactions from ONA influenced people, like yourself, for its application to those areas.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54974 - 05/23/11 02:49 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I've READ about airplanes and I have seen the math on thrust and drag coefficients, so I can take that knowledge as the foundation to build understanding on how to apply it to flight and business.

MABONAIR... you might not get there, but I'll write like I know how to fly this plane.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#54975 - 05/23/11 03:18 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Jake999]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 172
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I've READ about airplanes and I have seen the math on thrust and drag coefficients, so I can take that knowledge as the foundation to build understanding on how to apply it to flight and business.

MABONAIR... you might not get there, but I'll write like I know how to fly this plane.


I don't think one could write something more appropriate than this in the context of discussing why all of Mabon's reading will amount to nothing in the context of the ONA. It is by the very definition, a path of doing. The meaning of the manuscripts will simply escape those that don't work through the philosophy through direct action.

After all Myatt wrote the shit while actively engaged in many of the activities he 'philosophized', from violence, to insight roles, to subversion to Satanism (under his various 'pseudo-names'). They are writings born of a man engaging in practical deeds and his other associates, also engaged, in practical deeds. Without the practical experience to go with it, it's just words on a page. Like most LHP materials. Or to put it in a different context, it's like trying to truly grasp Musashi's Book of Five Rings, when never having studied a martial art (particularly a sword art) or been in a fight which had the potential to be fatal. Sure the words may bounce around in your head, but without that direct experience you'll never truly get them because they are born of, and written for a mindset that can only be acquired by direct experience. Those that hate 'doing' (like Mabon) almost always feel threatened by such things because one can't just sit in their house and declare themselves an expert without enormous sacrifice and actual attainment.

MF.


Edited by MindFux (05/23/11 03:19 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification

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#54977 - 05/23/11 03:37 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: MindFux]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: MindFux
The ONA...is by the very definition, a path of doing. The meaning of the manuscripts will simply escape those that don't work through the philosophy through direct action.

After all Myatt wrote the shit while actively engaged in many of the activities he 'philosophized', from violence, to insight roles, to subversion to Satanism (under his various 'pseudo-names'). They are writings born of a man engaging in practical deeds and his other associates, also engaged, in practical deeds. Without the practical experience to go with it, it's just words on a page. Like most LHP materials.

Well said, and spot on! Expresses the essence of this ONA matter, and of Myatt also BTW.

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#54978 - 05/23/11 03:41 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
See Mabon, this is why I said: first study, then (try to) understand and after that: conclusions. If my memory serves me well you asked where to find ONA information some time ago, like, hmm let me think... yesterday and today you not only talk about trying to meet with Myatt in the future but you're already sure you're going to implement the ONA “ideas” is your business and political plans. The works of ONA is vast and I'm quite a fast reader but I wouldn't be able to read the important parts in one day. Not even if that day had 72 hours. Let's not even talk about the time needed to understand. And this of course leads to the usual yadayadayada inevitable when you feed your brain on scraps of knowledge.

You have to understand that feeding your brain scraps of knowledge is like stuffing yourself with beans, both lead to nothing but farting.

As pointed out; ONA is about practice; acting, but not quite the same as you are doing.

D.

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#54981 - 05/23/11 04:38 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
Thanks everyone for sources and insights.

I note ONA is about Doing, though that is (to me) the third and final stage of the process KNOWLEDGE ... UNDERSTANDING ... ACTION.

I will read and I will apply to action.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54986 - 05/23/11 06:30 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Clarence Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 61
 Quote:
So if I looked under the names of Long or Myatt would I find this information in the British Library?


There is nothing under David W Myatt. Anton Long, Cristos Beest, Conrad Robury and Stephen Brown have all made submissions. You might try a generic search for "Order of Nine Angles" or "Satanism". I'd do a specific search for both Long And Beest, though.

I doubt the man personally goes online. However, it is possible to make indirect contact. Best of luck with that.

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#55008 - 05/24/11 03:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
I am sending you an email privately. Are you really serious about your research of ONA? Several years ago MLT merged with some of the Australian branches of ONA. We hold in the MLT archives the Luciferian hymns of ONA and also an original copy of Anytown by Christos Beast. I was contacted maybe a year ago by S. Mah. (name kept private) for a copy of Anytown, as Christos Beast had lost his original. We must have had a version of the original on file for them to ask.

I want to give you copies, as dispersing them among the interested is the best way to preserve the recordings. I am willing to answer other questions you may have.



Edited by creativevalue (05/24/11 03:35 AM)

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#55010 - 05/24/11 04:29 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: creativevalue]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Clarence and creativevalue
Thanks for this further information.

I will e-mail you creativevalue.

I shall at the next opportunity I get to be at the British Library track down the ONA resources (if any exist there).
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#55023 - 05/24/11 01:34 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Jake999]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I've READ about airplanes and I have seen the math on thrust and drag coefficients, so I can take that knowledge as the foundation to build understanding on how to apply it to flight and business.

MABONAIR... you might not get there, but I'll write like I know how to fly this plane.

A plane? You give him too much credit. I was thinking more along the lines of a hot air balloon. "99 Luftballons auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont..."

Mabon, for someone who is a proponent of the nanny state which is currently in place in your country, banning access to social networking sites "just like China", I think your true beliefs--that of an extreme liberal--are at complete odds with the fantasy of what you'd LIKE your beliefs to be.. You can "research" and "study" all you'd like, but it's as futile as Prince Charles trying to place himself in the shoes of an average person. He does lots of charity work (you do lots of research), but at the end of the day he still views the world with the myopic lens of a privileged person and you will never be able to reconcile your personal philosophy with that of a hard-core one like ONA espouses.
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#55025 - 05/24/11 02:18 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Nemesis]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Nemesis
Thank you for your input and you may be right. ONA is a puzzle to me and I would study their path just to satisfy my curiosity. ONA has crossed my path too many times and continues to do so, and it encourages me to learn how this enigma ticks.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#55026 - 05/24/11 02:55 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Nemesis]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Maybe what Mabon presents is skewed by an inability to intellectually portray his personal experience to more than articulate people? The limits of communicable presentation being unable to live up to the will that created it?

Maybe Mabon is not what you and I think he is at all? Maybe some of us cannot even come close to portraying what we are about through the limited media of words? Especially in the face of an elitist partisan allegiance effect.

Maybe Mabon is synthesising an understanding through criticism, after all have we ever observed him to be rude and unappreciative after others have been critical of his expressions? Quite opposite to my malfeasant arguments for the progress of nihilist dialectic, toward anyone who would touch my views. "Destroy to rebuild" is something Satanists go about differently it seems. Some of us appear to be predominantly, our own critic and commentator, whilst others are more receptive to external input.

This brings to mind something of a rather difficult nature to comprehend. One can appear not as intended when trying hard to express ones views through presentable articulation, especially if one is a man of few words in real life. I'm sure Mabon is much more down to earth and easier to grasp in person, like we all are, the same cannot be said about a pretentiously modest portrayal of imperfection whilst professing perfection in subtext.

Am I incorrect in assuming that Mabon may change his mind and ideas more frequently than his expressions on the forum would disclose? Am I incorrect in assuming the Satanic maxim is always the ideal for all of us and that pragmatism in real life is not necessarily the product of ones online appearance but that in testing ones ideas and especially having them rebuked serves to reduce what is unnecessary.

To the point raised by Nemesis about Mabon's personal philosophy being unable to live up to the ONA, I agree, as Satan cannot be intellectualised— the verb of the beast is not the compartmentalised formalisations of man, Satan may be dimly intellectualised but always inexplicably felt for which ones expressions can never live up to the inspiration that creates them, it is this affirmation of a lacking that causes the Satanist to always strive to an ever elusive maxim—

It is my affirmation that the blackest of propensity is unlikely to show itself as anything but the brightest stratagem.

Regarding Mabon's and everyone else's appearances here, I would think there is much more than meets the eye.
_________________________


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#55027 - 05/24/11 03:03 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
I will be waiting to hear from you. I check my mail every couple of days. I have helped other researchers/writers of Satanism in the past.

Nemesis has a good point. If you are good at research you must make certain you get paid/credit for your work. There are people who look for intelligent researchers to live off of, steal their work, and take credit and payment, leaving the researcher with nothing.

To mention, I am on my way to San Francisco. I was invited to an invitation only Memorial Ceremony for over 400 unclaimed children who died in the Jonestown deaths. My research is free, but I am allowed to place the position and publications for the California State University on my CV.

Protect your work, and I will be waiting for you.

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#55028 - 05/24/11 03:15 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with Mabon is that he is directly trying to run a marathon but his brain just can't keep up with his desire.

It's a problem many young suffer but it doesn't improve when each time it is suggested one should slowly work towards such a distance and often take a rest to recuperate, the only response are excuses. When too many people criticize you, you are either doing something right or something very very wrong.

He just does not want to see he doesn't have the endurance nor experience to run such a distance and in that, will never reach the finish.

The reactions he gets here are to be expected and maybe one day when his brain finally outruns his desire, he'll truly understand the value of these.

D.

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#55565 - 06/07/11 10:36 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
Greg Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 24
Loc: France, Paris
For a global view on the subject, The Sinister Tradition, Jacob C. Senholt, University of Aarhus (thesis 2008)
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Mark Twain

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#55587 - 06/08/11 02:47 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Greg]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Greg
For a global view on the subject, The Sinister Tradition, Jacob C. Senholt, University of Aarhus (thesis 2008)

There's an updated version of it, dated 2009 CE - but even that is way out of date now, given all the stuff that AL has written and published since Senholt began his research wayback in 2007 CE.

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#61260 - 11/08/11 11:34 AM ONA Advanced Star Game for Sale [Re: mabon2010]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
For Sale: One Authentic ONA Star Game. Mint Condition.

* 7 x 22x52cm vibrantly coloured and titled starboards with all the advanced levels and the squares initialled with co-oordinates for using the star game over distance - printed professionally on thick game cardboard and laminated for protection. (Laid out side-by-side the boards measure more than 1.5 metres enabling a superior and commanding Set to occupy an altar or permanent location with greatly improved visuals and presence, adding to the atmosphere and enjoyability.

* 100 x 2cm White [Wooden] Cubes, 100 x 2cm Black [Wooden] Cubes hand-painted with the nine alchemical sigils in RA's signature tri-sequence for optimum transfer during play. Cubes are laminated to protect them with a clear matte lacquer.
[Pieces total 90 cubes per player + 10 spares/exchanges.] [Additional Pieces/Replacements can be ordered]


* Revised Instructions [for the Exoteric Method] in a physical print-out and a free PDF of The Star Game: Advanced Essays plus personal instruction from THEM in learning the Game and the option to email Them to ask questions about the Game.

* 14 x Sphere Cards [7 for each player] beautifully detailed and listing relevant Septenary Tradition related attributes of the Spheres as a prelude to using the Kit in its Advanced Esoteric Method to map esoteric nodes from Individual to Aeonic signifiers.

* 14 x Rule Placards, [7 per player], beautifully detailed, convenient to place under Naos and/or Mira as reminders for those starting out which rules are in play and have been agreed to prior to commencing.

* Extremely limited edition / this will be one of only 3 ever offered publically by THEM to those wishing for a professional means to learn the dimensions of abstraction, abstract and aeonic magic, and become an Adept by furthering their path within the Septenary Way of the ONA.

* Those wishing for the original smaller but more portable 1cm version of the game should make enquiries to templeofthem@yahoo.com to request a re-release date, information or to place a pre-order.

Note: The Star Game is not for the faint-hearted, nor the dilettante - a great deal of effort has gone into creating this 2nd version of the Game for serious and dedicated Initiates to learn a rare and exceptionally powerful art of magic and perception. It is a black magical key to unlocking certain secrets of the mind; some of which secrets have been requisite to the success of the Temple of THEM and its conspirators. Purchasers of this set will also be contacted in the future when and if a spiral stand is created upon which these boards may sit - further approaching the original concept of the Game.

[Our Star Game Kit Mk.2 2011 price is $850 + $130 postage.]
Reader, please, do not waste our time - more than ever now, it is valuable. Payment is required in AUD, via paypal only, and to be made in full. Thank you.


ISS,
Templeofthem@yahoo.com

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#76890 - 06/05/13 10:08 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
I am late to the party here, but, in case the querent is still seeking evidence of the ONA's original esoteric sources, here is the short answer: There isn't any.

As for the sources of the ONA's main borrowings from others, here they are, in brief:

1. The Nine Angles

(See also Jacob C. Senholt, The Sinister Tradition, p. 21, n. 29, “All esoteric explanations aside, it is worth mentioning that the concept of the nine angles appears for the first time in published sources by the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set […] and as such from a scholarly point of view this appears to be the probable source of inspiration to the ONA.” The alleged alternative source, a medieval Arabic alchemical manuscript entitled Al-Kitab al-Aflak, does not appear to exist outside the ONA’s admirably fertile imagination. This MS is conveniently uncatalogued and untranslated, it would seem.)

2. The Black Pilgrimage

3. Aeonics/”Galactic Imperium”/"Magianism"

a. Francis Parker Yockey

b. Oswald Spengler

c. Peter Carroll

4. The Dark Gods

a. H. P. Lovecraft

b. The IOT Mass of Chaos ("Atazoth"; clearly demonstrating the Lovecraftian lineage of the term)

5. The Crystal Tetrahedron (Lovecraft, again).

(Oh, and as a minor point, cliology .)

The ONA claims that they have "dealt with" the issue of these derivations. This is true enough, if evasion and misdirection count as "dealing". The ONA seems to think it sufficient merely to show that differences exist between the details of the original sources and the ONA’s re-working of them.

The problem for the ONA, however, is that no one claims that the group did not alter and transform its sources. The critics’ actual charges are as follows:

1. That, despite its assertions, the ONA has no provable original tradition of its own;

2. That the ONA derived the above-mentioned concepts, among others, from all-too-modern sources, and;

3. That the ONA is disingenuous in failing to admit to borrowing from these sources.

At least the critics’ relentless probing and prodding has led to some progress, since the ONA now admits, even in this forum, that theirs is essentially a modern, made-up tradition, created out of patchwork borrowings from contemporary sources. That is the claim which skeptical inquirers of the ONA have made, not that the ONA borrowed from others without making changes of their own, a fact that is utterly irrelevant to the main charge.

Given these facts, it is not so important whether, say, David Myatt founded the ONA, or which voice actor happened to play the part of “Anton Long” during a given week. What really matters is to maintain skeptical vigilance, and to deflate the pretensions of groups such as the ONA whenever they appear. Doing so is one sure way to demonstrate “a certain initiated knowledge and insight”, and is the best answer to those who wonder “why” anyone should bother with refuting the group’s claims.

To conclude: By all means, take whatever inspiration you wish from this group, or from others like it, but realize that you will likely do better to go the sources and make your own synthesis of them. When you do so, however, please don’t pretend to represent an ancient tradition of unique esoteric understanding. It is better to be remembered as a ludibrium than as a laughing-stock.




Edited by Al_de_Baran (06/05/13 10:29 PM)
_________________________
Ignore List: SIN3; Dimitri

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#77811 - 07/06/13 06:18 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
Addendum:

The latest from the ONA (besides apparently spitting out like a wad of stale chewing gum those silly teen females it was using for the past few years) is to demand tangible proof of deeds, such as a copy of one's Internal Adept journal, or a recording of one's esoteric chant (this should include, it would seem, the Sinister equivalent of a Lawrence Welk orchestra, or a Mormon Tabernacle Choir), or a photo of one's Star Game. Those who can't meet the demand are treated with appropriate disdain.

So, let's turn the tables. To whoever happens to be playing the part of Anton Long this week:

Please provide a scan of a photocopy of the Arabic manuscript that Senholt is supposed to be "unaware of", the one that proves the provenance of the "Nine Angles" concept. Failure to do so will lead to the same inferences about the ONA that it makes about the so-called prétendus.
_________________________
Ignore List: SIN3; Dimitri

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#77812 - 07/06/13 06:46 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6567
Loc: Virginia
Oh dear. Caught in the ONA meme, eh? I understand, Resistance is Futile. I get it, no really... I do. If you still don't know what ONA actually is, I'd say you've just taken two steps back.

 Quote:
The latest from the ONA (besides apparently spitting out like a wad of stale chewing gum those silly teen females it was using for the past few years)...


It? So you recognize its organic sentience then? If not, then I wonder what you think you are doing here. *cough* does a bit of channeling, *sighs* ...Monkeys.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#77816 - 07/06/13 09:44 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SIN3]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
If anyone would like to offer a serious, intelligent reply to my query above, I'd be delighted to read it, and especially to see a photocopy of that (almost certainly non-existent) Arabic manuscript. Sauce for the goose, and all that....

By the way, I'd also love to see a reference to the pages of Picatrix Latinus that ostensibly refer to the nine angles. I took an admittedly cursory look through the Latin text, and did not see any. All the references I found using angul... as a root referred to astrology.

Of course, even pages of that work which actually reference the nine angles would prove nothing, other than perhaps a posteriori research ("Quick! We need some research to find pre-20th-Century references to the 'nine angles' concept, so we can have plausible deniability!"), but at least it would be interesting.

My sole interest in the ONA, by the way, lies in popping the balloon of a pretentious ludibrium. The dates between my posts here should indicate just where it lies in my order of interests and priorities.
_________________________
Ignore List: SIN3; Dimitri

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#77820 - 07/07/13 02:38 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3075
 Quote:
Please provide a scan of a photocopy of the Arabic manuscript that Senholt is supposed to be "unaware of", the one that proves the provenance of the "Nine Angles" concept. Failure to do so will lead to the same inferences about the ONA that it makes about the so-called prétendus.

Among the various manuscripts, blogs and older material it became clear that (genuine) prospects will be sought out on the condition they themselves can provide credentials of their praxis.

Before demanding I would advice you to show yours first. Perhaps you'll be getting a better catch and credibility.

Additional note: isn't it funny how this place is considered the e-bedrock of ONA to the extend great announcements and changes have to be made to make it known to the public? Sinister tradition, eat your heart out.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#77859 - 07/08/13 08:20 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Dimitri]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
Unlike the ONA, I make no claims, and I already indicated that my sole interest in the group is to pop their bubble, if it can be popped (and, judging from the caliber of the replies so far, it seems that it can, and rather easily).

The ONA, by contrast, makes particular claims. So, let's have the evidence. Simple, no?

Or let's call the whole thing a ludibrium and leave it at that.

As I mentioned, this particular jape is of limited interest to me. I'll check back in a month or two to see all those references and scans.
_________________________
Ignore List: SIN3; Dimitri

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#77866 - 07/08/13 11:29 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Al_de_Baran

My sole interest in the ONA, by the way, lies in popping the balloon of a pretentious ludibrium. The dates between my posts here should indicate just where it lies in my order of interests and priorities.


Why you think you can pop that particular balloon here at 600 is what's confusing to me. We have no affiliation with the ONA, just a few members with a passing interest in it.

 Originally Posted By: Al_de_Baran
...and, judging from the caliber of the replies so far...

Speaking of pretentious...


Edited by Fnord (07/08/13 11:31 PM)
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#77874 - 07/09/13 02:09 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3075
 Quote:
The ONA, by contrast, makes particular claims. So, let's have the evidence. Simple, no?

Those particular claims can be (dis)proven on the condition you're part of the group. A lot can be told about the order and even more fiction can be found (both in as outside).

The only question I ask is the reason "why" you want to pop that particular bubble? I can only guess that behind the pretentiousness a major butthurt will be the prime motivator. That, or you're just a troll.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#80365 - 09/08/13 07:09 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
Checking back as promised. As I expected, there is nothing to see here, and of course no provision of sources or other factual support, as requested. So, here are just a few parting observations:

1. Fnord: The entire reference to "popping the balloon" is to the thread's subject; namely, the request for sources. I have seen here, as well as elsewhere, the ONA's false claims regarding its "tradition". So here seems as good a place as any to respond. The ONA, for all its macho posturing, seems afraid to allow comments and discussion on its "official" blog.

At any rate, Fnord is taking the "popping the balloon" phrase both too seriously and too literally. I really would be happy to see some actual evidence for what the ONA claims, and would gladly retract my statements, as necessary, if any evidence existed.

What Fnord calls "pretentious"--my evaluation of the responses I received--I call "factually accurate".

2. Dmitri: Ah, so one has to be a member to receive the Real Truth! I see... How convenient. In the meantime, though, the baseless claims are on the outside for all to see.

Trolling: Always a convenient sneer word when one cannot answer any other way. Hint: Trolls don't usually provide the sort of documentation I did in my on-topic reply to the person who began this thread, nor do they usually reply at such length.

"I can only guess that behind the pretentiousness a major butthurt will be the prime motivator"

Aww, how cute: It looks as if Fnord taught Dimitri a new word! For the rest, I see that the Freudian concept of projection is alive and well.

To mabon2010: Assuming you ever revisit this thread, I hope that my reply was of help to you.

Signing off now on this topic.


Edited by Al_de_Baran (09/08/13 07:21 PM)
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#80373 - 09/08/13 10:43 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Al_de_Baran

What Fnord calls "pretentious"--my evaluation of the responses I received--I call "factually accurate".


Good then go find your answers elsewhere. This is not an o9a site. I'm not at all surprised that I have to repeat that as your wit seems as slow as molasses in the dead of winter.

Shove your pretentiousness sideways up your factual and accurate.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#80606 - 09/29/13 12:58 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Fnord]
RealityChecker Offline
lurker


Registered: 09/23/13
Posts: 1
As always, it is instructive to observe the hypocrisy at work in Internet forums such as this one. Lacking the ability to do anything else, a couple of people resort to name-calling, ("pretentious", "butt-hurt", "troll"), and the person who responds to this abuse in the mildest way gets his account banned.

My comments here regarding the ONA, although critical, were always substantive and supported by evidence. The quality and intelligence of the comments that preceded my banning (I haven't read any that followed), on the other hand, speak for themselves--as do the actions of the moderators here.


*To anticipate the obvious reply, I never called the ONA "pretentious"--when I referred to the group's "pretensions", I was referring to their undocumented claims.

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#80610 - 09/29/13 02:25 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: RealityChecker]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6567
Loc: Virginia
Chalk it up to knowing your audience. I think most people here who have responded aren't ignorant to what ONA is and does, it tends to get tiresome when forum users beat a dead horse.
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#80613 - 09/29/13 04:12 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: RealityChecker]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Quote:
As always, it is instructive to observe the hypocrisy at work in Internet forums such as this one. Lacking the ability to do anything else, a couple of people resort to name-calling, ("pretentious", "butt-hurt", "troll"), and the person who responds to this abuse in the mildest way gets his account banned.


That's not name calling, those are adjectives, words that modify a noun (not trying to school you in grammar, btw) drawing attention to the character or behavior of a person or thing (i.e. you).

Besides, what else does one call it but "butt-hurt" when you create a whole new account just to stir up the same stale shit?

Get over it and move on. If you can contribute to the forum intelligently, fine, but don't waste people's time with crap like this.
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#81137 - 10/13/13 12:18 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
DargoF Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 29
I come up late at this topic, but as far as I could see no one mentioned three authentic paperback editions by the ONA, which might be interesting to mabon2010, if he is still into this research:

First comes The Sinister Tradition which contains three core works of the Order of Nine Angles: the Grimoire of Baphomet, Codex Saerus, and Naos. Through these the initiate learns the basics of the Septenary system, the mythos of the Dark Gods, the basics of Sinister Sorcery, Sinister Chant, the Star Game, and the Seven-Fold Way leading to Adepthood and beyond.

Then there are Sinister Tales ,an anthology of the major fictional works of the Order of Nine Angles. It includes such works as the Deofel Quartet, Breaking the Silence Down, Eulalia, and other short tales, together with an Anton Long essay on deciphering these sinister tales.

Finally, there comes The Sinister Way that presents several of the texts related to pathworking and sinister esotericism from the Hostia volumes, and adds to it the entire Sinister Tarot of ONA’s Christos Beest.

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#81904 - 11/03/13 01:53 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: DargoF]
DargoF Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 29
Chrétien Sauvage has released a fourth installment on ONA writings as of 31st October 2013, consisting of HOSTIA Vol. I-III. Pertinent information as well as excerpt of the Editor's Introduction captioned below:

HOSTIA: Secret Teachings of the ONA
by Anton Long (Author) ,Chrétien Sauvage (Editor)

Available through Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Hostia-Secret-Teac...83303443&sr=1-1

"The present work contains esoteric manuscripts circulated among members of the ONA. HOSTIA contains further details of the sinister tradition of that Order and compliment the information about it already available in the books ‘Naos’, ‘The Black Book of Satan’ and ‘The Deofel Quartet’ as well as that published in the journal ‘Fenrir’. The aim of publishing these MSS is to make the rituals and methods of this sinister tradition available to all those who might be interested. Such publication, as will be evident, enables individual potential to be fulfilled, aiding the emergence of a new Aeon. This edition contains the contents of HOSTIA vols. I-III."

EDITOR’S FOREWORD

This volume has been two years in the making. As the Hostia volumes are among the most essential of the Order of Nine Angles corpus, readers may ask why these were not included in the first or second of the “Sinister” volumes. Simply put, the original PDFs proved resistant to digital formatting and subsequent editing attempts, and entire sections had to be typed in letter by letter. Some pages, notably those containing alchemical symbols were finally inserted as images, as were the celebrated letters of Stephen Brown – albeit these in order to maintain the original sense of character.

This document contains all three Hostia volumes (I-III), in their entirety, with the exception that ‘Copula Cum Daemona’ is not included in Hostia III, as our own hardcopy omits the first several pages. The reader is encouraged to read the corrected version instead in Sinister Tales (p.573). Likewise, since ‘Concerning the Temple of Set’ is printed first in Hostia II, it is not repeated at the end of Hostia III for obvious reasons.

As with any transcription effort from hardcopy, there are at times sections of the original which are illegible. In this case, this edition of Hostia normally indicates this with standard editorial marks (e.g. “[illegible text]”, and one essay in Hostia I is listed as ‘Untitled’, as our original hardcopy likewise does not have a legible title. The reader may consult the original typed manuscripts for further reference, if clarity is needed in such cases.
As ever, this edition is published as a volunteer initiative, in the hopes that it will prove useful to initiates at all stations along the Way.

Chrétien Sauvage
Order of Nine Angles
Samhain 2013

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#81906 - 11/03/13 03:10 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: DargoF]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
DargoF links to some good stuff. I got those editions and they're good quality for what you pay. I haven't found any problems with the content yet (and I have some "old stuff" to compare it to), and the few spelling/typo type errors don't take away from the content itself. Option 2 is to download everything from the internet for free, which takes more time and has you reading from a screen or paying to print everything out. Option 3 (the really really authentic option) is to spend thousands of dollars acquiring original MSS and a microfilm.

Good luck!

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#81913 - 11/03/13 06:13 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: numen]
DargoF Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 29
Yes, I have some copies myself as well. I agree that these are good value, nevermind an occasional typo. These are authorized editions by the ONA, and therefore authentic. And as for the other options, they are good, even though I love to have all of these teachings and essential works in traditional book, or paperback edition \:D
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#82376 - 11/16/13 11:16 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Asura Dasi Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010

1. academic journals or studies that have been published.
2. books or essays by the original founder Myatt or Long.


In concern to academic sources, I would suggest the recently published Mysticism in the 21st Century from Sirius Academic Press by Dr. Connell Monette of Al Akhawayn University, Ifrane, Morocco.

Per the dust jacket of the referenced volume, Professor Monette is an Associate Professor of Religion and Assistant Vice President for Academic Affairs at Al Akhawayn, holding a Ph.D. in Medieval Studies from the University of Toronto.

The chapter on Hermeticism deals exclusively with the Order of the Nine Angles presumably based on in part Professor Monette's private interviews with Anton Long - Professor Monette allegedly being the last to be granted such an interview prior to Long's announced retirement some few years back.

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#82421 - 11/17/13 10:39 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Asura Dasi]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Asura Dasi
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010

1. academic journals or studies that have been published.
2. books or essays by the original founder Myatt or Long.


In concern to academic sources, I would suggest the recently published Mysticism in the 21st Century from Sirius Academic Press by Dr. Connell Monette of Al Akhawayn University, Ifrane, Morocco.

Per the dust jacket of the referenced volume, Professor Monette is an Associate Professor of Religion and Assistant Vice President for Academic Affairs at Al Akhawayn, holding a Ph.D. in Medieval Studies from the University of Toronto.

The chapter on Hermeticism deals exclusively with the Order of the Nine Angles presumably based on in part Professor Monette's private interviews with Anton Long - Professor Monette allegedly being the last to be granted such an interview prior to Long's announced retirement some few years back.


Congratulations to Dr. Monette on manifesting the book. I understand a lot of time, work, [and grant money], went into this book.

Me and a few Associates appreciate the work put in and that he gave ONA a chapter in his book. This was personally good news for me. I send Dr. Monette thanks and kind regards on behalf of the Few Associates. .:.AoB.:.
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#82426 - 11/18/13 04:34 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Caladrius]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
Wasn't there also a Professor Kaplan that did some research into ONA? I seem to recall something about him getting a microfilm out of the deal or something. I'm still thinking if this dude wants original manuscripts or whatever he's going to have to use inter-library loans and fork over the "big bucks" to boot. Which is silly since these days you can just go download almost everything.

I wonder how much one of those old microfilms would go for these days?


Edited by numen (11/18/13 04:40 AM)
Edit Reason: stupid computer is stupid

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#82435 - 11/18/13 01:49 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: numen]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
Original sources can give a much fuller picture-- not just about the date/origin of the medium itself, but also marginalia and details that may have been edited out or corrupted in later digital versions.

For instance, the original copies of "Falcifer: Lord of Darkness", are signed by 'David Myatt' and not 'Anton Long'. (*dramatic chord!*)

Granted, it's really not that practical unless you are an academic or can visit the libraries directly. Besides, we all know how Mabon's little excursion into ONA-Land went.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#82440 - 11/18/13 02:33 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: The Zebu]
numen Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 218
Actually I don't know how it went for Mabon, I wasn't around back then, but if I had to predict from what I've seen of him, not well.

And I understand what you mean about marginalia and such, I just approach it from the standpoint of the usefulness of the material rather than from a gathering the most facts standpoint.

Knowing or not knowing that Myatt=Long (if in fact that is the case) doesn't affect your ability to walk the Sevenfold Way. Neither does anything else you're likely to uncover by perusing dusty old manuscripts in the reading room of the British Museum.

I'm not saying that undertaking a scholarly study for your own edification is a bad thing, just that getting original source material seems like a huge waste of time and money if what you want to do is walk the Way. Your manuscript collection isn't going to be a big help really.

Now, if you want the Truth (you can't handle the Truth!) of the ONA and you're willing to throw thousands of dollars at it, then sure go buy a bunch of original MSS, and you'll still be wondering in the end.

Your best bet might be tracking down Brenna Kinsley or some of the other less known folks from back in the day and see if they'll talk to you. At this point interviews with Anton Long and Christos Beest have been done to death.

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#82451 - 11/18/13 08:58 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
DargoF Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 29
As far as I know, ONA was thoroughly presented in academic discourse through the works of Senholt and now dr. Monette. But I also came across an article that discusses this matter, which states: " ... in the 2006 Encyclopedic Sourcebook of Satanism edited by James R. Lewis and Jesper Petersen, the Church of Satan, described as ‘the founding form’ of modern Satanism is – together with the Temple of Set – given extensive coverage, with the O9A relegated to a few paragraphs – “the Order of the Nine Angles (ONA) is a secretive British Satanist group that acquired notoriety by openly advocating culling, namely human sacrifice…” – and dismissed as being merely the ‘intended most sinister form of Satanism today’. Others, such as the more extensive coverage by Goodrick-Clarke in his 2002 book Black Sun, described and concentrated on the O9A as an exponent of ‘nazi Satanism’, even though several 1980s O9A MSS and the 1992 Satanic Letters of Stephen Brown explained that the O9A regarded politics as simply an exoteric ‘causal form’ that might be used as part of an aeonic ‘sinister dialectic’..."

All of this, with commentary and recommendations for further reading (necessary for better understanding of the Order) is given here: http://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/2013/11...emic-discourse/

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