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#55255 - 05/31/11 11:36 AM Stealing
Pizgatti Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
Hello all,

About the only thing I'm still a little hazy on is the issue of stealing. Say for instance, running a con on someone. You are taking advantage of their stupidity to gain a reward, and at the same time practicing a form of lesser magick most likely. Is this still against one of the sins LaVey wished to convey to others?

Stealing from big corporations like wal-mart?

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#55268 - 05/31/11 03:40 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
Byllgrim Offline
lurker


Registered: 05/31/11
Posts: 2
Loc: Norway
Big corporations or not, it will affect the local employees. Moral is a big topic. there are many people in the world so why should one care about a few, or any?
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#55270 - 05/31/11 03:44 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Byllgrim]
Pizgatti Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
Well then just sticking with modern atheistic Satanism, that's where my topic was directed I suppose. I should have been specific there. But as far as the con?
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#55295 - 05/31/11 07:33 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
TiKiahResurrect Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 7
My dear Pizgatti, do I understand Satanism fully? I don't.
Looking at your situation,it is better for you to weigh the advantages against the disadvantages of your action;{now} and {how} you can handle your mind set in the future in case you'll walk half the way of Hell.

Someone here who is greater than me can help you with an answer.
Personally, I don't care if a seller gives me extra money in addition to my change. Such a mistake is a take away for free on my side. I can't make the calculation for them if they can't do it themselves. I remember, a woman was gossiping whiles doing business with me. She gave me back my money,plus an amount of money I couldn't pick from the ground. I thanked her and moved away. Next time, she shouldn't make such a mistake again.

Avoid stalk stealing! Work on your education.I like this forum;make a mistake and they will correct you. Repeat it..and you will know the way out.

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#55297 - 05/31/11 08:01 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Anton Lavey: The 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.


Reading this it is very clear that stealing is "forbidden" by Satanic philosophy as per LaVey.

Of course, one could make the argument that someone who allows themselves to be conned out of cash is "crying out to be relieved".

Either way, it is still illegal and as far as I know the Church of Satan, being the public representation of Satanic philosophy as per LaVey, has a strict policy against any illegal activity.

Should you decide to steal, no matter from whom or by what means, the consequences are yours just as much as the reward.




Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (05/31/11 08:08 PM)
Edit Reason: Submitted WAY too early.
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#55317 - 06/01/11 07:45 AM Re: Stealing [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
When I was much much younger I was part of a delivery system channeling the goods of big companies to individual buyers at much sweeter prices. Many think it is ethically different but fundamentally it is the same thing. It is only because we consider companies as something abstract, most see it as different. They have money enough already is an argument often used but to a homeless a normal family can be looked upon identical.

In the end, stealing is simply taking others stuff without their permission. Whether it is a crime depends upon your country. Whether it is a sin, upon your religion.

D.

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#55472 - 06/04/11 02:51 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
It should be looked at according to the situation and cost/benefit. Obviously if local law enforcement doesn't do much to prosecute criminals, might as well do it yourself. Wal-mart pays their workers sub-human wages while amassing profits in the billions. I consider that a form of theft (or I guess they call it social darwinism). robbing wal-mart is perhaps social darwinism.

Though honestly stores like wal-mart spend a lot of money hiring spies, video cameras etc. to catch shop lifters. It actually is a very common thing I think something like 20% of the population are shop lifters.

I remember one time I told these two people "don't steal from wal-mart they hire spies to catch them" and they stole from wal-mart and got caught. So while 20% of people are shop lifters about 19.5% of them get caught eventually.

The only thing about it is that depending on where you live they usually seem very soft on crime. The reason? because virtually everyone is a criminal. I call it dysgenics and degeneration of society and culture. Call it what you will but its the reality we live in today.

What I found odd as well were some of the laws (may be different in your area). Such as security can not legally chase shoplifters or tackle them (without being sued). So if they try to stop you, then you can just run out the store anyway, all they can do is call the police (who show up 2 hours later even though they were across the street the whole time). I could be wrong on this, so please don't blame me if you get slammed on the ground lol

Most of my life I have been a victim of crime. Meanwhile police, authority etc. does nothing to stop it. I feel in light of this, honestly crime pays.

At the same time I want to gather a group of people around me who are honest and live up to higher standards so I can benefit from their company and live superior.

so at the same time I see such petty criminals as pathetic low lifes and at the other time feel like given the environment crime pays. It all depends on the situation. If we lived in a normal world people wouldn't steal because they would think better of themselves and want a good reputation. And in this perfect world when wal-mart earns $10,000 in one night they should pay a little more than $200 out to the workers who do most of the work.

Now days the majority of our nation are low life criminals (including the ones in suit and ties) and one almost has to join them in order to survive.

Obviously though never betray a friend, family or anyone important to you. It would only weaken yourself, your reputation, your own relationships. Simply inferior. Corporations, criminals, *ssholes, we enter a grey area.



Edited by Thule (06/04/11 02:57 PM)
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#55474 - 06/04/11 03:07 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Why would paying minimum wages be theft? I'd think it would be better to consider those working at these wages as hopeless.

I'm always amazed when people complain about their paycheck because none forces them to work at such money. Would it be more fair to first calculate the profits of a company and then divide that amongst all employed? You'd be amazed how fast the comrades would be working at no wages when that happens.

D.

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#55478 - 06/04/11 10:11 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Pizgatti
Is this still against one of the sins LaVey wished to convey to others?


LaVey didn't consider himself to be pure. Satanism since 1966 is seen stereotypically as pertaining to: Evil passions, gross bodily desires and egoistic attachments. In other words, LaVey knew that he founded a philosophy that was emotionally, morally and spiritually impure. Other religions try in various ways to cleanse followers by removing impurity and defilement.

For in the LaVeyan approach, Satanists view themselves as standing in impurity. We take the relation between the impure and pure, thus, not willing to engage in the process of moving from the former to the latter. We find ourselves as we are. We objectify and conceptualize impurity as an end, but even see purity as our actual present state.

Beware of giving in to the ideas of "an underlying third position" (God) behind the scenes for it is a delusive, conceptual construction. This is the reason why people never come to the Real starting point of Life so long as they base their efforts on such an attitude.

Jinn
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#55496 - 06/05/11 04:13 PM Re: Stealing [Re: paolo sette]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Conjecture.

Satanic philosophy and pathworkings toward self mastery and self discipline, adaptation, life affirmed, for the fullest expression of the self.

That a master regards himself as a determiner of values and values whatever he recognises in himself. To know oneself better is to study oneself in interactions with others.

This rationalisation allows us to sense the underlying primal essence of Dionysian impulses moreso fully, by establishing boundaries, pushing them to the limits without inhibition. Why steal for thrill or petty gain as one who is adept at expressing his will, will have attained a degree of self sufficiency in society, as not to be obsessed about coveting the belongings of others, unless he is a materialist mundane with kleptomania issues bordering on the unnecessary

Is it worth it to steal anything from a known affiliate or personal belongings of others? I'd say no, simply because of the unnecessary dishonourable repercussions, as honour conferred, whether from others or within the self, is more valuable than an air of dishonour and negativity about the place.

Hypothetical: A moral nit picker so concerned with the minutiae monetary impact on himself and the economy, takes it upon himself to confront you about a stolen loaf of bread just before you leave the store undetected, when he can clearly see you are stealing to survive and not taking liberties of needless greed. I would see this "grassing" as needless, unnecessary, and much to vulgar a display of power, due to the overwhelmingly impersonal nature of the crime insofar as the scarcely minimal effects to others and that one can face jail simply for a bite to eat while not particularly wanting to steal in the first place but having to. The very same hubris moralist, who grassed, would be likely to throw bread away weekly.

Somebody holding up a store with threats is something else; women will be traumatised and the clerk is involved, his safety encroached upon. Quite different to a sleight of hand to feed oneself.

In the movie "Taxi Driver" a guy tries to rob the store at gun point demanding the cash from the till, then threatening the clerk for more money while the clerk continually states he simply does not have any more. The tension raises as the robber is escalating unreasonable threat. A Taxi man "Travis" is browsing behind the isles, he casually draws his revolver and says, "hey", from behind the armed assailant who then turns around with his gun arm extended— he is immediately shot in the face. The taxi man walks away and apologises to the store clerk who says "it's OK man I'll take care of it" and then proceeds to bludgeon the corpse of the robber with a crowbar.

Classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCkiWUsXcUc
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#55498 - 06/05/11 05:30 PM Re: Stealing [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
If we look at the way the egalitarians will cry "victimisation!" this is clearly fallacious as they are the ones who would define themselves suitable for retaliation by attempting to pull down the strong with passive aggressive negativism, envy, coveting.

This is drummed into school children who would take personally owned sweets into class, the teacher would declare "I hope you have enough to go around for everybody" imposing that one child's personal supply is not his, but for everyone.

The Treaty of Versailles conference was a wonderful equality goody bag, in which everybody was taking a dip. The German delegates had been watching the proceedings but were not allowed to take part. Germany had no choice but to accept whatever was left over.

Regardless, the Nazi meme managed to out replicate any and all competitive memes. A consequence of the will to power is the exploitation of man, by man. This "exploitation" is the essence of life. The dominant principle of living functionality. Without exploiting the sentimental weaknesses of equality pathos, the strong cannot develop.

Slave morality is "nay saying" attitude or herd morality which holds to the standard of that which is useful or beneficial to the weak, powerless. Strong and independent individuals are regarded as evil.

Master morality is "yes saying" attitude where "good" and "bad" are equivalent to "noble" and "ignoble". The master creates and exemplifies value, his only negation is to look away.
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#55546 - 06/06/11 08:53 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Hegesias]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
What forces people into low wages is circumstances along with their own stupidity etc. I know in my situation I have been smart enough to be running the company but make minimal wage due to having no power. It takes money, connections etc. to make money.

I know that in the United States in the past businesses would often pay very good wages, care about their employees, promote people etc. They believed in community responsibility. Now days companies pay as little as they possibly can and could care less about the lives they ruin. All they care about is the bottom line. I would suggest some level of mutual consideration.

In fact it maximizes profits to do this! I have seen a lot of companies that treat their employees like crap and pay them little. As a result employees don't care when they break stuff, don't work hard and often steal from the company. Other companies that actually develope relationships with people, treat them well etc. seldom see that.

Actually it is proven that profit sharing increases profits. Yet only a few companies do it. Usually once a year everyone gets a bonus based on profits. That way if one employee sees someone else stealing he knows its coming out of his bonus so it motivates everyone to improve company performance.

It is fine if the company wants to exploit workers. But also understand that I will not flinch when people steal from that same company. Its quid pro quo.

I am an anti-marxist to the core. Yet I also believe our current system is largely incompetent and unjust.

It is a matter of noble and ignoble. One way is a more intelligent way of managing and thus more successful another way is not. Don't hit someone unless you plan to get hit back in other words. Disrespect others and of course they will disrespect you back.
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#55599 - 06/08/11 05:26 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Thule]
Pizgatti Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
I forgot that everything has it's own meaning to different people. Of course this is the way of the world. Perhaps we have to first "define" stealing as it seems I need to do with any topic in these forums.

Stealing. Shoplifting. "Taking" merchandise.

What I was asking though is running a con. Is conning someone "taking" what is theirs? Actually I just answered my own question, LaVey never condoned illegal activities. Duh. Never mind. Continue.

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#55821 - 06/14/11 02:41 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
You know your circumstances and if theft is the path of least resistance for you and you can do so without regret, who am I to suggest 'thou shalt not!'?

It's really a shame any Satanist would think to honor anyone's, LaVey's, writing or opinion over their own sense right and wrong.

As for wages used to be... I suppose I'll share a political insight. The top tax rate of earnings in excess of 3 million dollars is now 35%, Republicans want to lower it - but under Eisenhower, JFK, Nixon and Carter it was at least 70%. With the top tax that high, very wealthy people could keep more of their money if they kept more of their money in their business. Essentially this was accomplished by hiring more employees at higher salaries. It had nothing to do with morals or a sense of justice or any bullshit like that - the top tax rate was so high - GREED dictated higher wages!

That's why since Reagan lowered that top tax and it has been lowered by every President, Democrat or Republican, since - that we now have an eviscerated middle class.

If who you are is one of the wealthy elite, feel proud of your Satanic accomplishment winning the class war, but beware as an eviscerated middle class is always the foundation of a brainless and violent coup.

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#55928 - 06/16/11 03:46 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
If someone is dumb enough to be conned, then they deserve to be conned.

Regarding what LaVey wrote; don't forget, he was a con man. He was never a Lion Tamer, a Crime-Scene Photographer, etc. And he's not the be-all, end-all of Satanic philosophy.

And according to some people who were with LaVey in the early days, he only wrote TSB to make money.
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