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#55255 - 05/31/11 11:36 AM Stealing
Pizgatti Offline
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Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
Hello all,

About the only thing I'm still a little hazy on is the issue of stealing. Say for instance, running a con on someone. You are taking advantage of their stupidity to gain a reward, and at the same time practicing a form of lesser magick most likely. Is this still against one of the sins LaVey wished to convey to others?

Stealing from big corporations like wal-mart?

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#55268 - 05/31/11 03:40 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
Byllgrim Offline
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Registered: 05/31/11
Posts: 2
Loc: Norway
Big corporations or not, it will affect the local employees. Moral is a big topic. there are many people in the world so why should one care about a few, or any?
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#55270 - 05/31/11 03:44 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Byllgrim]
Pizgatti Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
Well then just sticking with modern atheistic Satanism, that's where my topic was directed I suppose. I should have been specific there. But as far as the con?
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#55295 - 05/31/11 07:33 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
TiKiahResurrect Offline
Banned
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Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 7
My dear Pizgatti, do I understand Satanism fully? I don't.
Looking at your situation,it is better for you to weigh the advantages against the disadvantages of your action;{now} and {how} you can handle your mind set in the future in case you'll walk half the way of Hell.

Someone here who is greater than me can help you with an answer.
Personally, I don't care if a seller gives me extra money in addition to my change. Such a mistake is a take away for free on my side. I can't make the calculation for them if they can't do it themselves. I remember, a woman was gossiping whiles doing business with me. She gave me back my money,plus an amount of money I couldn't pick from the ground. I thanked her and moved away. Next time, she shouldn't make such a mistake again.

Avoid stalk stealing! Work on your education.I like this forum;make a mistake and they will correct you. Repeat it..and you will know the way out.

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#55297 - 05/31/11 08:01 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Anton Lavey: The 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.


Reading this it is very clear that stealing is "forbidden" by Satanic philosophy as per LaVey.

Of course, one could make the argument that someone who allows themselves to be conned out of cash is "crying out to be relieved".

Either way, it is still illegal and as far as I know the Church of Satan, being the public representation of Satanic philosophy as per LaVey, has a strict policy against any illegal activity.

Should you decide to steal, no matter from whom or by what means, the consequences are yours just as much as the reward.




Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (05/31/11 08:08 PM)
Edit Reason: Submitted WAY too early.
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#55317 - 06/01/11 07:45 AM Re: Stealing [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
When I was much much younger I was part of a delivery system channeling the goods of big companies to individual buyers at much sweeter prices. Many think it is ethically different but fundamentally it is the same thing. It is only because we consider companies as something abstract, most see it as different. They have money enough already is an argument often used but to a homeless a normal family can be looked upon identical.

In the end, stealing is simply taking others stuff without their permission. Whether it is a crime depends upon your country. Whether it is a sin, upon your religion.

D.

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#55472 - 06/04/11 02:51 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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It should be looked at according to the situation and cost/benefit. Obviously if local law enforcement doesn't do much to prosecute criminals, might as well do it yourself. Wal-mart pays their workers sub-human wages while amassing profits in the billions. I consider that a form of theft (or I guess they call it social darwinism). robbing wal-mart is perhaps social darwinism.

Though honestly stores like wal-mart spend a lot of money hiring spies, video cameras etc. to catch shop lifters. It actually is a very common thing I think something like 20% of the population are shop lifters.

I remember one time I told these two people "don't steal from wal-mart they hire spies to catch them" and they stole from wal-mart and got caught. So while 20% of people are shop lifters about 19.5% of them get caught eventually.

The only thing about it is that depending on where you live they usually seem very soft on crime. The reason? because virtually everyone is a criminal. I call it dysgenics and degeneration of society and culture. Call it what you will but its the reality we live in today.

What I found odd as well were some of the laws (may be different in your area). Such as security can not legally chase shoplifters or tackle them (without being sued). So if they try to stop you, then you can just run out the store anyway, all they can do is call the police (who show up 2 hours later even though they were across the street the whole time). I could be wrong on this, so please don't blame me if you get slammed on the ground lol

Most of my life I have been a victim of crime. Meanwhile police, authority etc. does nothing to stop it. I feel in light of this, honestly crime pays.

At the same time I want to gather a group of people around me who are honest and live up to higher standards so I can benefit from their company and live superior.

so at the same time I see such petty criminals as pathetic low lifes and at the other time feel like given the environment crime pays. It all depends on the situation. If we lived in a normal world people wouldn't steal because they would think better of themselves and want a good reputation. And in this perfect world when wal-mart earns $10,000 in one night they should pay a little more than $200 out to the workers who do most of the work.

Now days the majority of our nation are low life criminals (including the ones in suit and ties) and one almost has to join them in order to survive.

Obviously though never betray a friend, family or anyone important to you. It would only weaken yourself, your reputation, your own relationships. Simply inferior. Corporations, criminals, *ssholes, we enter a grey area.



Edited by Thule (06/04/11 02:57 PM)
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#55474 - 06/04/11 03:07 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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Why would paying minimum wages be theft? I'd think it would be better to consider those working at these wages as hopeless.

I'm always amazed when people complain about their paycheck because none forces them to work at such money. Would it be more fair to first calculate the profits of a company and then divide that amongst all employed? You'd be amazed how fast the comrades would be working at no wages when that happens.

D.

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#55478 - 06/04/11 10:11 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Pizgatti
Is this still against one of the sins LaVey wished to convey to others?


LaVey didn't consider himself to be pure. Satanism since 1966 is seen stereotypically as pertaining to: Evil passions, gross bodily desires and egoistic attachments. In other words, LaVey knew that he founded a philosophy that was emotionally, morally and spiritually impure. Other religions try in various ways to cleanse followers by removing impurity and defilement.

For in the LaVeyan approach, Satanists view themselves as standing in impurity. We take the relation between the impure and pure, thus, not willing to engage in the process of moving from the former to the latter. We find ourselves as we are. We objectify and conceptualize impurity as an end, but even see purity as our actual present state.

Beware of giving in to the ideas of "an underlying third position" (God) behind the scenes for it is a delusive, conceptual construction. This is the reason why people never come to the Real starting point of Life so long as they base their efforts on such an attitude.

Jinn
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#55496 - 06/05/11 04:13 PM Re: Stealing [Re: paolo sette]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Conjecture.

Satanic philosophy and pathworkings toward self mastery and self discipline, adaptation, life affirmed, for the fullest expression of the self.

That a master regards himself as a determiner of values and values whatever he recognises in himself. To know oneself better is to study oneself in interactions with others.

This rationalisation allows us to sense the underlying primal essence of Dionysian impulses moreso fully, by establishing boundaries, pushing them to the limits without inhibition. Why steal for thrill or petty gain as one who is adept at expressing his will, will have attained a degree of self sufficiency in society, as not to be obsessed about coveting the belongings of others, unless he is a materialist mundane with kleptomania issues bordering on the unnecessary

Is it worth it to steal anything from a known affiliate or personal belongings of others? I'd say no, simply because of the unnecessary dishonourable repercussions, as honour conferred, whether from others or within the self, is more valuable than an air of dishonour and negativity about the place.

Hypothetical: A moral nit picker so concerned with the minutiae monetary impact on himself and the economy, takes it upon himself to confront you about a stolen loaf of bread just before you leave the store undetected, when he can clearly see you are stealing to survive and not taking liberties of needless greed. I would see this "grassing" as needless, unnecessary, and much to vulgar a display of power, due to the overwhelmingly impersonal nature of the crime insofar as the scarcely minimal effects to others and that one can face jail simply for a bite to eat while not particularly wanting to steal in the first place but having to. The very same hubris moralist, who grassed, would be likely to throw bread away weekly.

Somebody holding up a store with threats is something else; women will be traumatised and the clerk is involved, his safety encroached upon. Quite different to a sleight of hand to feed oneself.

In the movie "Taxi Driver" a guy tries to rob the store at gun point demanding the cash from the till, then threatening the clerk for more money while the clerk continually states he simply does not have any more. The tension raises as the robber is escalating unreasonable threat. A Taxi man "Travis" is browsing behind the isles, he casually draws his revolver and says, "hey", from behind the armed assailant who then turns around with his gun arm extended— he is immediately shot in the face. The taxi man walks away and apologises to the store clerk who says "it's OK man I'll take care of it" and then proceeds to bludgeon the corpse of the robber with a crowbar.

Classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCkiWUsXcUc
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#55498 - 06/05/11 05:30 PM Re: Stealing [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
If we look at the way the egalitarians will cry "victimisation!" this is clearly fallacious as they are the ones who would define themselves suitable for retaliation by attempting to pull down the strong with passive aggressive negativism, envy, coveting.

This is drummed into school children who would take personally owned sweets into class, the teacher would declare "I hope you have enough to go around for everybody" imposing that one child's personal supply is not his, but for everyone.

The Treaty of Versailles conference was a wonderful equality goody bag, in which everybody was taking a dip. The German delegates had been watching the proceedings but were not allowed to take part. Germany had no choice but to accept whatever was left over.

Regardless, the Nazi meme managed to out replicate any and all competitive memes. A consequence of the will to power is the exploitation of man, by man. This "exploitation" is the essence of life. The dominant principle of living functionality. Without exploiting the sentimental weaknesses of equality pathos, the strong cannot develop.

Slave morality is "nay saying" attitude or herd morality which holds to the standard of that which is useful or beneficial to the weak, powerless. Strong and independent individuals are regarded as evil.

Master morality is "yes saying" attitude where "good" and "bad" are equivalent to "noble" and "ignoble". The master creates and exemplifies value, his only negation is to look away.
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#55546 - 06/06/11 08:53 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Hegesias]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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What forces people into low wages is circumstances along with their own stupidity etc. I know in my situation I have been smart enough to be running the company but make minimal wage due to having no power. It takes money, connections etc. to make money.

I know that in the United States in the past businesses would often pay very good wages, care about their employees, promote people etc. They believed in community responsibility. Now days companies pay as little as they possibly can and could care less about the lives they ruin. All they care about is the bottom line. I would suggest some level of mutual consideration.

In fact it maximizes profits to do this! I have seen a lot of companies that treat their employees like crap and pay them little. As a result employees don't care when they break stuff, don't work hard and often steal from the company. Other companies that actually develope relationships with people, treat them well etc. seldom see that.

Actually it is proven that profit sharing increases profits. Yet only a few companies do it. Usually once a year everyone gets a bonus based on profits. That way if one employee sees someone else stealing he knows its coming out of his bonus so it motivates everyone to improve company performance.

It is fine if the company wants to exploit workers. But also understand that I will not flinch when people steal from that same company. Its quid pro quo.

I am an anti-marxist to the core. Yet I also believe our current system is largely incompetent and unjust.

It is a matter of noble and ignoble. One way is a more intelligent way of managing and thus more successful another way is not. Don't hit someone unless you plan to get hit back in other words. Disrespect others and of course they will disrespect you back.
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#55599 - 06/08/11 05:26 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Thule]
Pizgatti Offline
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Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
I forgot that everything has it's own meaning to different people. Of course this is the way of the world. Perhaps we have to first "define" stealing as it seems I need to do with any topic in these forums.

Stealing. Shoplifting. "Taking" merchandise.

What I was asking though is running a con. Is conning someone "taking" what is theirs? Actually I just answered my own question, LaVey never condoned illegal activities. Duh. Never mind. Continue.

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#55821 - 06/14/11 02:41 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
You know your circumstances and if theft is the path of least resistance for you and you can do so without regret, who am I to suggest 'thou shalt not!'?

It's really a shame any Satanist would think to honor anyone's, LaVey's, writing or opinion over their own sense right and wrong.

As for wages used to be... I suppose I'll share a political insight. The top tax rate of earnings in excess of 3 million dollars is now 35%, Republicans want to lower it - but under Eisenhower, JFK, Nixon and Carter it was at least 70%. With the top tax that high, very wealthy people could keep more of their money if they kept more of their money in their business. Essentially this was accomplished by hiring more employees at higher salaries. It had nothing to do with morals or a sense of justice or any bullshit like that - the top tax rate was so high - GREED dictated higher wages!

That's why since Reagan lowered that top tax and it has been lowered by every President, Democrat or Republican, since - that we now have an eviscerated middle class.

If who you are is one of the wealthy elite, feel proud of your Satanic accomplishment winning the class war, but beware as an eviscerated middle class is always the foundation of a brainless and violent coup.

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#55928 - 06/16/11 03:46 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
Knievel74 Offline
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Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
If someone is dumb enough to be conned, then they deserve to be conned.

Regarding what LaVey wrote; don't forget, he was a con man. He was never a Lion Tamer, a Crime-Scene Photographer, etc. And he's not the be-all, end-all of Satanic philosophy.

And according to some people who were with LaVey in the early days, he only wrote TSB to make money.
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#55929 - 06/16/11 04:13 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Knievel74]
Pizgatti Offline
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Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
If someone is dumb enough to be conned, then they deserve to be conned.

Regarding what LaVey wrote; don't forget, he was a con man. He was never a Lion Tamer, a Crime-Scene Photographer, etc. And he's not the be-all, end-all of Satanic philosophy.

And according to some people who were with LaVey in the early days, he only wrote TSB to make money.


Which is why the ignorant and the slow will never completely understand The Satanic Bible. The can't see past all the deceit, lies, and manipulation to the truth. There is good philosophy and a good starting point within the book. It's a good read. I suppose in the end if I steal I just don't let other people know since it wouldn't appeal to everyone's nature. Do what thou wilt, if I unknowingly hurt someone else eventually I'll face the consequences like always. I've never thought any different. You can do anything you want as long as your prepared to face the music.

Thanks for the conversation so far guys.

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#56759 - 07/13/11 11:45 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
Wicked Satanist Offline
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Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 244
Loc: Michigan
I have always frowned upon stealing as I would not like to have my possessions stolen.

I am sure the large corporations feel the same way and display a minute amount of trust in allowing shoppers to walk about freely. If they didn't trust their customers they would walk them through the store and even search them each individually.

As a former Wal-Mart employee, I will let you in on a little secret. Wal-Mart has a lot of cameras all over the store. Of course you can find dead spots if you're intelligent. But, 90% of those camera are watching THEIR OWN ASSOCIATES. ALL of the Cash Registers have a camera above them pointing DOWN on the register. They're not watching the customer cash out, they're watching the cash transactions. If a cashier is pink-slipped ( their drawer comes up short OR over $10 bucks within a day ) 3 times they're fired for theft. I believe if the amount if $50 bucks or more the tape is reviewed and they're fired the very next day.

Morally... Don't steal unless it's to survive. Then it's a matter of judgement on whom and how to steal from. Start small, work up your nerver, test your skills and you'll eventually get caught.

Always happens.
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#56786 - 07/13/11 10:04 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Wicked Satanist]
Mister Cage Offline
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Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
Great post... I would never steal from another person, neighbor or friend, period. But i do walk out of home depot and lowes with hundred dollar tools all week long. Its simple and i dont feel bad because their a huge corporation and them just being in my town raises my property tax each year. So i just grab a nail gun, walk to a register and drop it on the anti-magnet trap they have to de-magnetize the box and ask tbe employee where the dry wall stuff is, pick, then pick up the box i just de-magnetized and wslk around for a minute... ill then get on my phone and wait for the register employees to be occupied near the bay doors and services desk area and start talking on my phone with the nail gun under my arm and reading some peice of paper and just walk out. I do tbis all the time and give tbe tools i already have to my friends and others that need them in my trade. Do i feel bad...not one bit.
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#57563 - 07/25/11 10:11 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
AniElvira519 Offline
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Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 1
Hi everyone ! Yeah I have stealing issues, I can't really stop. Is that a satanic sin? I'm very new to this and I want to know as much as possible [=, thankyou!
*HailSatan* ;D
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#57565 - 07/25/11 11:01 PM Re: Stealing [Re: AniElvira519]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Yes that's indeed a sin but say five "rehtaF ruO" and you'll be forgiven.

D.

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#58047 - 08/08/11 07:16 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Pizgatti]
Montzigner Offline
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Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 2
I am a pretty experienced shoplifter. I don't feel any guilt when I steal things and I do not believe it is against my morals. I read somewhere that the "sins" LaVey listed was more or less to dissuade rebellious teenagers from being satanists based on nothing but rebellion. I find it quite humorous, true or not. I am very lacking in the moral department, but it is because I don't believe in an objective morality. I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about Karma, though.
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#58048 - 08/08/11 07:45 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Montzigner]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
I am teacher and I do quite often in my workplace something. I put small purse with a bit money under my table on the floor and then went out... I want to find out - is someone, who steals... I always found, who has done it. I don't trust thefts, because I don't steal and I don't like if someone steal from me.

Stealing for survival can be important and even OK, but if you can survive and have wish to do good work, earn good salary or progress in your work, than stealing isn’t the thing to do. But in every culture attitude can be different. I am from small country in North-east Europe, from Latvia and maybe my opinion cannot fit for US or countries, where society live in real welfare.
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#58059 - 08/08/11 09:22 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Montzigner]
Lamar Offline
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Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
 Originally Posted By: Montzigner
I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about Karma, though.

Karma plays into superstition just like religion. Its just another way of control. Usually when someone does something "bad" they'll look for immediate signs of "karma" and set themselves up from accident prone situations. Just another bullshit mindset of the herd.

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#58199 - 08/15/11 01:02 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Lamar]
Nyte Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
The young adults around here have found out that I am their Karma. A few have tried to pass off not only lying but steeling as well and none have passed. They've been caught every time. Those that steal can stay the fuck away from me and mine. I work hard for what I have and I'll be damned if you'll take what I've earned. It's bad enough that I all ready have to pay taxes and higher prices because of your damned sticky fingers but I'll be damned if you'll be made to feel welcome in my home. The 2 that lied and were stealing while staying with us left rather quickly after I confronted them on what they were doing (of course this was at different times in the last 12 months or so). If they had stayed I was going to catch them red-handed and turn their asses in to the police and they knew it.

If you steal from stores, you are actually stealing from other customers. Losses are made up by tax write offs (which in turn are buffered by taxes being raised), and by increasing prices. So I don't care where you steal from, you're still taking money out of my pocket that I've EARNED and are shit to me for it.

Government assistance is a WHOLE different ball game and needs to have someone who actually understands it revamp the WHOLE thing but we won't see that in our life time. Those in Government now are working on taking that money away and using it for much bigger useless shit, like pay raises and shuttling the prez around some more for his fucking windbag speeches. But hey...that's for another rant. ;\)
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#58203 - 08/15/11 03:19 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Nyte]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
I share your opinion. I don't want that someone steals from me and I avoid thefts. I think people, who steal are a bit shortsighted, they don't care for future and made bad reputation for themselves.
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#58214 - 08/15/11 07:02 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Latvian]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I can't be bothered to steal, stealing, itself, would inconvenience me as I don't like anything to want to steal anything. Everything on offer is complete rubbish. I don't even have any furniture.

What is there to steal? And what is good about material items anyway? I don't see the point. Really.
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#58222 - 08/15/11 11:46 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Hegesias]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:

What is there to steal? And what is good about material items anyway? I don't see the point. Really.


I'm pretty much on the same line of logic. My friends and family call my lifestyle "monastic" because I live so sparsely. I'm often half-tempted to move into some wooden shack in the forest and become a crazed hermit, but I think I love my laptop and wacom tablet too much.

You can salvage some nice furniture from dumps though.


Edited by The Zebu (08/15/11 11:48 PM)
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#58246 - 08/16/11 12:20 PM Re: Stealing [Re: The Zebu]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
My friends and family call my lifestyle "monastic" because I live so sparsely...

I enjoy very similar lifestyle too... For years I had Lada (very old soviet car) and none in Latvia to take it for car... I guess already 15 or even 20 years we have no thefts of Lada…

Even my son has got something from me. He is only one, who hasn't mobile phone in his school, but it's his decision. I want it to give hime to reach him... He said – too much things disturb me.

Maybe it's reason, why I don't like to steal - I don't see any need for it - I'm self-sufficient and I don't need so much rubbish.
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#58247 - 08/16/11 12:46 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Latvian]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Lada, ha a fucking hilarious car. A guy I knew had one, it looked like a shoe box and drove like a turtle but it was so much fun. One day the windows just fell inside the door while driving.

I remember the Dnepr, not sure if the bikes still exist, but it was amazing to see the paint peel off while riding.

Eastern European craftsmanship, you just had to love it.

D.

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#58249 - 08/16/11 01:11 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Diavolo]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
In reality with LADA I didn't have always fun. For example in the winter we had temperature under -20°C and some days even under -30° (in south part of Latvia, in Daugavpils is registered -43,2°C) and of course heating in my Lada didn't work for years. I did a lot of trips during winter without heating and all windows were with frost and icicles and in inside was under -10° C.
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#58251 - 08/16/11 01:22 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Latvian]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I had the same last winter. I had some shitty French car which suffered some electrical problems. So the heater broke down. Now I don't like cars. As a former biker, driving a car always has this "elderly" feeling to it, as if you're one of the turtles on the road. So I can't spend much on them, or even fix what I consider "trivial".

So yeah, it's freezing and you got to drive with the windows down, spend most of the time trying to keep that front window free from ice so you actually have a clue where you are on the road. And you throw in some blanket to save some body heat.

But I ain't bothered about that shit, I forces you to adapt to the circumstances. Sure getting into a tropical heated car during winter is pleasant but driving an ice-cube does make you tough.

D.

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#58252 - 08/16/11 01:33 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Diavolo]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
...but driving an ice-cube does make you tough

You're right! Of course during years with Lada I hadn't any weight problems. I was busy with Lada…

I am teacher and I'm not smart in repairing cars... Many, many times my Lada was broken and usually, when I was far from any civilization and I spend many hours in hot sun, hard rain or extreme winter to fix problems... and my wife and children spent hours with me to help fix them. Real experience!
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#58267 - 08/17/11 09:40 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Latvian]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1711
Loc: New York
Lada's are decent cars actually as far as Eastern European cars go. I was surprised at how much power they had.

On the other hand my cousin owned an old Trabant and I couldn't even get going in first gear for some reason, even though I've driven standard transmission cars for many years at that point.
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#58618 - 08/26/11 01:46 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Asmedious]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
Lada was my first car and it was good robust brick and told some nice stories in previous posts, but Lada is already memories for me. Maybe I am slowly becoming old and I need more comfort. I sold it in 2005 for 150,- Lats (about 200,- €)...

You wrote about Trabant, DDR wonder – now I am in Dresden, in capital of Saxony, which was part of DDR and I saw during 8 days only on Trabant on the street… Ladas, Trabants, Polski Fiat, Ziguli, Volga, Moskvic time in most of EU countries are away… Maybe we have to go to Russia! There Lada can be even stolen!
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#60370 - 10/23/11 05:57 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Knievel74]
blackflamedemon Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/23/11
Posts: 9
Loc: vaiden mississippi usa
a satanist should never steal.thats if he is true loyal and honest,thatshe is pure to what satanisnm represent.should not steal unless the neighbor cries out.take this for it is a burden over my shoulder.
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#60373 - 10/23/11 07:08 PM Re: Stealing [Re: blackflamedemon]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
Satanism is fundamentally incompatible with any sort of moral objectivism. If anyone (not just a Satanist) steals something and has the skill not to get caught, well, then there's not much anything can do about it. It's not "wrong" or "right", it just "is".

Sure, espousing amorality isn't that good for PR purposes, but that's the hard reality of life.
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#60376 - 10/23/11 09:54 PM Re: Stealing [Re: The Zebu]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 855
Loc: Nashville
Zebu, I kinda get where you're coming from, but the whole "nothing's right nothing's wrong" idea doesn't quite sit well with me. Based on that, genocide isn't wrong, rape isn't wrong, child molestation isn't wrong, torturing animals isn't wrong. How can this be?

Even LaVey advised not to harm children. Was he off base?
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#60377 - 10/23/11 10:03 PM Re: Stealing [Re: William Wright]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3773
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
What would be the criteria to draw that moral line in the sand though? The world doesn't care either way.

Nothing is wrong or right, but that realization in and of itself doesn't preclude personal standards of behaviour, or personal honour if you will.
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#60386 - 10/24/11 12:08 AM Re: Stealing [Re: William Wright]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
When I refer to what is commonly called "right and wrong", I cannot speak of morality in the conventional sense-- only cause and effect. I can truthfully say that some human actions flatter my disposition while others disgust me, and I am not ashamed of this. But I refuse to fall into the trap of ascribing a universal significance to such human conduct, because I see absolutely no value in it.

Ultimately, when one must resort to pulling out the rape/genocide/molestation card, they are discrediting their own argument because they are effectively scraping from the bottom of the barrel. A typical socially-functioning human doesn't need to be told not to sexually abuse children or bludgeon cats to death.

And such lifeboat scenarios are rhetorically meaningless, because the extremity of the situations can be reduced to sheer absurdism, and shows just how illogical moral codes are.

 Quote:

Even LaVey advised not to harm children. Was he off base?


I could punch holes in pretty much every one of the 11 Rules, but let's leave it at the "Do not harm little children", to which I would answer with this:

10 Youngest Murderers in History

If I got into an unpleasant situation with charming youngsters such as these, I don't think there would be much of a question.
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#60390 - 10/24/11 01:14 AM Re: Stealing [Re: William Wright]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
I would like to offer my support for what The Zebu has posted here and add some of my thoughts.

I think there is a definite difference between the viewpoint or the perspective of a Satanist and the more or less inflexible moral conviction of a morally or RHP bound human being.

A Satanist, in my view, necessarily adopts a subjective empirical morality as a consequence of removing belief as the foundation, or the absolute objective basis, for assessing actions or states of affairs or attitudes in the world.

This subjective empirical morality of the Satanist does not bind a Satanist. I may be disgusted or horrified by actions or attitudes which other people, who I would regard as morally RHP bound, also find disgusting or horrifying, or I may not. And that works the other way as well. I may value some actions or attitudes as good, just like a morally bound RHP person, might value that same action or attitude as good, or again I may not.

Many times I value something as wrong or as right because the consequences of acting in a certain way may necessarily lead to a consequence which I deem unworthy of my personal integrity/honour or may not lead to an advantage for me when I look at it from a rational point of view. I think this is what The Zebu means when he talks about cause and effect as a factor underlying moral choices and actions.

From this viewpoint being a Satanist – for me - involves careful calculation: if I do this, what will happen and if I do that, what will happen. Being “moral” in this way demands intelligence and an understanding of what I can get away with, and finally a willingness to accept total personal responsibility for the foreseeable consequence of my own actions because this is what I have chosen and done.

No doubt others can elaborate on this theme in a more effective way.

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#60402 - 10/24/11 10:29 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Octavian]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 855
Loc: Nashville
I guess the key word, then, is subjective. A particular action is right or wrong to me, depending on how I look at it. The actions of the 9/11 terrorists were, to me, disgusting – wrong. However, from their perspective they were right.

Even from an RHP standpoint, right and wrong can be seen as subjective. If one believes in God and serves God, then the believer usually defines right and wrong according to how God defines it. Therefore, "universal" right and wrong is simply piggy-backing off God's view of right and wrong.

Ultimately, each of us will do what we think is in our best interest. That is our "morality".
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#60409 - 10/24/11 09:04 PM Re: Stealing [Re: William Wright]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
I am the centre of my universe and therefore I am a God.

You are the centre of your universe and therefore you are a God.

Another Satanist is the centre of their universe and therefore they are a God.

A person, who can be correctly defined, as belonging to the right hand path see themselves as a part, or an element, in something larger than themselves and outside of themselves, from which they derive their “meaning of life,” or their “sense of self.”

Their moral code is something which they follow. It is a code which comes from outside of themselves; which they see as more or less universal in nature; and one which, they usually think, everybody else should follow as well. A nice, easy and sleepy life is guaranteed for all who see this way and just follow.

I am sure you can grok all of this Will, and if you can, then you may grok this as well: the essence of Satanism (for me) is objective subjectivity.

If there is no God; if there is no universally objective right and wrong or good and evil; if belief is not an adequate foundation for making determinations about codes or claims about the world, then what would be an adequate foundation. What is the real in – itself:

Will to power, or even might is right, or even might makes right.

Gods are the centre of their universe, but not all Gods are equal and they will be sorted and will find their place quite naturally and organically.

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#60411 - 10/24/11 11:21 PM Re: Stealing [Re: Octavian]
RAIDER Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
Personally, I steal when I want to and I don't steal when I don't want to...I'm the one I have to 'answer to'.
When stealing feels like a nice little piece of revenge I enjoy it. When faced with the need to earn more money I prefer to work more.
These are subject to change based on my needs, and there are many ways to steal...and to earn.
Hey man...whatever works.
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#66098 - 04/13/12 08:10 AM Re: Stealing [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Me Incarnate Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 2
"no matter from whom or by what means, the consequences are yours just as much as the reward"

I'm not a thief but this made me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Good advice.

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#66099 - 04/13/12 08:42 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Me Incarnate]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I have long believed in encouraging others to steal from me or otherwise issuing tests of character. This can be attributed to the way I invent laws and rules for others to be judged by, obviously these laws and rules remain hidden to track genuine violations, and not to void the authenticity of punishments.
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#66100 - 04/13/12 10:25 AM Re: Stealing [Re: Hegesias]
LucidDreams™ Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/14/12
Posts: 10
Loc: East Flatbush
Oh my god I feel like I have sticky fingers in my household
Otherwise I leave other people the hell alone.

Stealing is subjective like William Wright says. I feel like I can steal from my immediate family because the consequences are not really bad. But when I venture into anothers home, I abide by their rules. I dont touch anything, I dont look at anything, I ask to sit down etc etc. Otherwise If I steal, I risk being "totally destroyed" by the local police and my credibility ruined by big mouthed people.

And as for the tests of credibility, utter bogusness. Its like your stealing their freedom for your gains. If your rules are generally "good" (and in compliance of the law) then yea have at it. But if you advocate stealing or some other trivial poo for some tests..then Idk, they are too stupid to see past you. Have at it \:\)


Edited by LucidDreams™ (04/13/12 10:26 AM)
Edit Reason: grammatical errors
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#66102 - 04/13/12 12:31 PM Re: Stealing [Re: LucidDreams™]
TwIzT Offline
member


Registered: 12/21/11
Posts: 127
Talking to yourself now are you. I must admit that does not look good in pleading your case of sanity. Just saying that is an off colored statement to hear.
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