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#59133 - 09/15/11 12:22 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Wicked Satanist]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Wicked Satanist
I don't see Obama loosing this re-election. Lately all of the Presidents have won their second term and managed to fuck things up even more than before. I think the last president to have us headed in the right direction was Regan.


If the economy is still bad, he'll lose.

"This sucks" trumps "I have a plan."

Besides, the comedy shows are way better when a social conservative is in office
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#59154 - 09/17/11 10:18 AM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Autodidact]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
The economy WILL still be bad. What Obama will certainly attempt to demonstrate is that the economy would have been worse without his stimulus bills. The question is, will that argument resonate with a voting public so fed up with the economy that they can’t get beyond the idea of “throw the bums out,” even if it simply means replacing one set of bums with another?

This happens almost every election cycle. The public is “angry as hell” with “politics as usual” and is determined to “clean house.” So they take out the republicans and toss in the democrats or vice-versa, are disillusioned with the results and “clean house” once again. What the public fails to realize is that the politicians are a reflection of the central dilemma the public can’t seem to come to grips with: They want the stuff (roads, schools, social safety nets, etc.), but they don’t want to pay for it.

Democrats promise the stuff, republicans promise paying less and less for it. So voters keep moving politicians in and out, giving the impression that America is making some kind of progress when in reality it is stagnating. I guess this is why I tend to view politics quaintly, from a distance. For all the shouting and chest thumping and house cleaning, it’s doomed to remain politics as usual as long as voters are running the show.
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#59162 - 09/17/11 02:05 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: William Wright]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
Lest anyone misunderstand me, I think America's democratic form of government is among the best, if not the very best, in the world. I certainly wouldn't prefer dictators to be running the show. My point was simply that the biggest flaw of any democratic government is that it is limited to the intelligence, or lack thereof, of the voting majority. As has been stated before, we get the government we deserve.
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#59164 - 09/17/11 02:14 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
As far as I know it is corporations that run the USA so I can at least think of a couple of "better" forms of government.

Change the parameters to a fixed sum each candidate receives, and is limited to, to fund his election and you'll get a whole different game.

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#59171 - 09/17/11 04:15 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: William Wright]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
My point was simply that the biggest flaw of any democratic government is that it is limited to the intelligence, or lack thereof, of the voting majority. As has been stated before, we get the government we deserve.


An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

I might make that my sig for all of next year
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#59196 - 09/18/11 05:26 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Meph9]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2551
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
O.K., since Zach isn't running this time, why should we be satisfied with the lesser of two evils again - Let's go for the greatest one.
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#59233 - 09/19/11 11:06 AM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Cthulhu 2012!

No more years!
No more years!
...
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#59936 - 10/11/11 02:36 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Wicked Satanist]
Deluded Reality Offline
banned troll/needs to read more
stranger


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 24
I would keep a close on the outcome of the Wall Street protests that have expanded and continued to go on. From what I have seen they seem to like the idea of obtaining more jobs. Obama would provide that. But also will making the national debt to increase even more and probably cause more inflation through the Federal Reserve's production of more money (which mean less value on the dollar). But from what I have seen, the protesters haven't acknowledged this side. They just want more jobs, for the economy to get better, and have more concern for people over money, while not having too much political knowledge on their hands as an advantage. If their message becomes nation wide, and held by the majority ignorant, than I personally think that Obama's chance of getting reelected just increased dramatically.

Furthermore, let's say a Republican wins the elections. Let's say that they keep their promises. Cut taxes, cut government spending and balance the budget, let the economy get fixed by the promotion of businesses through cutting taxes, etc. How fast will relief come? While a Republican might be able to decrease the debt and help the economy more, a Democrat would bring relief to people faster. Would protests not increase then?

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#59972 - 10/11/11 08:48 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Deluded Reality]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Several comments on this.

 Originally Posted By: Deluded Reality
I would keep a close on the outcome of the Wall Street protests that have expanded and continued to go on. From what I have seen they seem to like the idea of obtaining more jobs.


Yeah, and I would like a pink pony. But so far they are not doing anything, they're just protesting. If that doesn't change, there won't be an "outcome".

 Originally Posted By: Deluded Reality
But also will making the national debt to increase even more and probably cause more inflation through the Federal Reserve's production of more money (which mean less value on the dollar).


Odd, I haven't seen any inflation yet ... we've "printed" lots more money, and no runaway inflation. See here for a quick explanation.

 Originally Posted By: Deluded Reality
Furthermore, let's say a Republican wins the elections. Let's say that they keep their promises. Cut taxes, cut government spending and balance the budget, let the economy get fixed by the promotion of businesses through cutting taxes, etc. How fast will relief come? While a Republican might be able to decrease the debt and help the economy more, a Democrat would bring relief to people faster. Would protests not increase then?


Taxes are already low, corporate profits are high ... I don't understand the logic that more tax cuts "promotes business".

Imagine you own a small business. You employ 10 people, you make and sell 10 widgets every month. Economy crashes, now you only sell 5. You lay off 5 people, because you can't afford to pay them. The gov't cuts your taxes. But you can still only sell 5 widgets. Why would you hire anybody?

From a larger point of view: people who think the economy "fixes" itself are morons. What people like Alan Greenspan do is to conflate general economic expansion with general social well-being. The problem is that the nice, comfortable lifestyle enjoyed by most Americans in the last few decades of the twentieth century is not the definitive outcome of economics.

The economy did fix itself - by sending jobs overseas, un-employing millions, by tanking real estate. Oh, wait, that's not really what you meant by "fix", is it?

From an even larger point of view: since economics ignores morality, stability, and national borders, then if the desire is to mitigate the effects of externalities, the system must be regulated. How much, rather than if, should be the focus for debate.

The truth of this last bit should be obvious to any Satanist - might makes right. Ponder this analogy: We want a fairer and more equitable society, and because most people are generally peaceful and respectful, we should do away with laws and policemen, because people will usually do the right thing. Would that generate the desired result, or some other result?
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#60088 - 10/16/11 04:10 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Deluded Reality]
Liane Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 29
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Deluded Reality
I would keep a close on the outcome of the Wall Street protests that have expanded and continued to go on.

Indeed. And we got "Occupy Frankfurt" now \:D
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#60094 - 10/16/11 07:14 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Liane]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Nothing is going to come of it. Most of them are unemployed weekend warriors who, when push comes to shove, would rather slink away from the insurmountable amount of work that needs to be done to right our economies.

They're no different than the Tea Baggers, with an equally less-than-solid grasp of the current state of affairs and too much time spent listening to rhetoric and forwarding chain emails. If I wanted to feel special I suppose I also could don a Guy Fawkes mask and hold up a posterboard with a catchy, hypocritical slogan on it.

Because there's no better way to protest capitalism than with an iPhone in your pocket and a venti soy latte from Starbucks in your hand.
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#60166 - 10/17/11 11:25 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Nemesis]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:

Because there's no better way to protest capitalism than with an iPhone in your pocket and a venti soy latte from Starbucks in your hand.


The cheap stereotyping of activists aside, there is definitely more visible momentum behind the Occupy movement than anything else on the table today.

Unlike the teabaggers, the "occupiers" have inspired sister movements across the West, from major American cities to London to Rome. (The latter of which, ended up erupting into riots).

The protests are definitely going to lead to something, although not what everyone expects. (I, ever the pessimist, suspect a brief flare of escalating violent rhetoric capped by political demagoguery, followed by an oligarchical backlash.)
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#60179 - 10/18/11 07:54 AM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: The Zebu]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Most of them are protesting their own poor financial decisions. "Why am I stuck with $20,000 in college tuition loans?" Apologies if I find it difficult to feel any sympathy for whiners.

What will lawmakers have to do to appease this rabble? Slit their wrists on live tv? Sacrifice a goat? Say "I'm sorry"? When millions of people are frustrated and angry because they lived well beyond their means and have had that taken away from them, hopping onto the bandwagon of popular dissent is the perfect outlet for their pent-up emotions. Even if their anger would be better directed at themselves for having 3 Lexus' in the driveway of a $450,000 home in the burbs when they only made $20/hr. Boo hoo.

The main difference between OWS and the tea baggers is the age demographic of the protesters.

Very little will come of this. Winter is coming and most people will not have the fortitude to camp out in the cold day in and day out. Unless they're already homeless and have become acclimated to the weather.
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#60191 - 10/18/11 02:06 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Nemesis]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
What will lawmakers have to do to appease this rabble?


Nothing. OWS is not actually doing anything. Why should politicians pay attention to them?


 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
Very little will come of this.


Agreed. I've been talking to my significant other about this, and we both agree that talk is cheap. Maybe they'll develop into something, but thus far it's been a month, and so far there's not even a coherent point beyond "this sucks".
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#60192 - 10/18/11 02:12 PM Re: 2012 GOP [Re: Autodidact]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Related articles--

Some Tips for the Simpletons Of 'Occupy Wall Street'

'We Are the 53 Percent'

 Quote:
Agreed. I've been talking to my significant other about this, and we both agree that talk is cheap. Maybe they'll develop into something, but thus far it's been a month, and so far there's not even a coherent point beyond "this sucks".

Also, if anything DOES come of this mess, it will be so bastardized and far from the original movement (which is thus far undefined) that it will be unrecognizable and effectively useless.
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