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#56145 - 06/22/11 03:02 AM Satanism and real live achievments
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
I would really like to know your stance on Satanism and real live achievements. What is your take on it ? For me personally Satanism is a tool to reach whatever i want, while working with my surroundings and getting the most out of everything for myself. This also includes gaining a lot of power and money, otherwise in my view your are lying to yourself. For example if you work at your local Walmart or whatever, this is not really satanic for me, as you are on the lowest level and havent reached anything, but if you run your own business and make shit loads of money, we are getting closer to my definition. So what is your take ?

Cheers
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#56146 - 06/22/11 06:52 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



There is an argument out there that you should be able to prove you are an adept and skilled Satanic magician by setting goals which can be stated and then actually achieving those goals.

I know for instance that the Church of Satan feels that a persons place in their organisation should reflect the position they have acheived in the outside world. They prove themselves in the real world and hence to the organisation.

I think this is an achievement oriented religion as you seem to suggest.

I also think that genuine success oriented Satanist's are the total package. That is they are intelligent, have a propensity towards successfully dominating their environments in order to give themselves an advantage over the competition, have a very clear picture of what they want and how to get it and do get it, and can successfully and correctly employ Greater and Lesser Magic to aid them.

One thing I would say: working at Walmart is okay for a young person starting out.

I don't necessarily think a Satanist has to be the head of a corporation or filthy rich to be regarded as a successful Satanist. Some Satanist's just find something they are really good at and just forge ahead and reach their water level, their place. It may be art or music, or just working in an office or doing something else. Maybe teaching or military involvement etc.

I think all Satanist's have a desire to distinguish themselves from those around them and to perceive and express themselves differently.

Water will find its own level and this goes for Satanist's as well.


Edited by MatthewJ1 (06/22/11 06:53 AM)

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#56150 - 06/22/11 08:54 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Hey Matthew,

thanks for your thoughts on this.

While i do agree on most of the stuff you said, i think it is interesting that you mentioned especially the military. This is where it really gets tricky for me, how can you claim to be satanic if the main thing you do at work is following stupid orders and overall be the chess figure for our fucked up politicians.

I do agree that you don´t need to be the head of a corporation but being ahead of the competition and gain freedom in what you do, is a big chunk for me especially when doing business as well.


Edited by Empire of Dread (06/22/11 09:16 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarified
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#56152 - 06/22/11 09:57 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Empire of Dread
While i do agree on most of the stuff you said, i think it is interesting that you mentioned especially the military. This is where it really gets tricky for me, how can you claim to be satanic if the main thing you do at work is following stupid orders and overall be the chess figure for our fucked up politicians.


Because it's a volunteer army (at least in the US).

Power, money, running a company, all the things you mention involve many other people. It's extremely unlikely that you'll just fall into "getting" all of that.

Like most of us, you will have to work for your rewards. You will find that much of life involves choice and compromise, or that there are greater opportunities associated with some compromise than those without.

For instance, if you desire self-discipline, a good exercise regimen, some help with college tuition, and a big resume bump (to most employers), a stint in the military seems like a pretty good means to those ends, doesn't it?

As a side note, once you get the money and power, it will be you giving the stupid orders or being a fucked up politician. Judge not, not lest ye be judged, but lest ye waste your time and energy on useless judgment. Spend your time learning the rules of the games you choose to play; spend your energy being the best at those games. Nobody likes a whiner.
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#56153 - 06/22/11 10:24 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Autodidact]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact


Because it's a volunteer army (at least in the US).

Power, money, running a company, all the things you mention involve many other people. It's extremely unlikely that you'll just fall into "getting" all of that.


Beeing in a volunteer army, does make it even worse from my view. Since you are not forced to go to the army, it is your act of free will to accept the orders of others. And i will never do that for sure.

And yes its not like you fall into getting all those stuff like money and whatever, no its there because i take it, because it is my will and if i am the fittest on the block, i will happily take it, with an evil grin on my face ;\) and yes this involves other people, but you always exploit them if you are smart enough.

Cheers

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#56154 - 06/22/11 11:09 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
It matters little what or where a Satanist does and goes in his/her path-- what matters is the reason why, and what they get out of it.

For instance, a Satanist might go into the military for training or experiential purposes. He tolerates the commands of his "superiors" because he intends to get something out of it.

We do this all the time, not just in the army.

We all "accept" external control mechanisms throughout our lives. If we live in modern society, we have our corporate Archons demanding blood money and blind obedience to the state, a standard most people are all too happy to placidly accept. Here the commanding officers do not bark orders into megaphones or run their underlings through obstacle courses-- we are instead subjected to a subtle and subversive torrent of advertising, consumerist programming, and propaganda that keeps us in rank and file, working nine-to-five jobs every day while making sure we don't raise too much of a fuss.

If one seeks power, to dominate the system and twist it to his own ends, he is faced with the uncomfortable fact that he rules a world of fools. Attempting to radically change human nature to fit his own personal ideal is a fool's errand that too many would-be ideologues have fallen prey to, and history is littered with their half-finished wrecks.

If one tears free from modern society, he has nothing left but his own two hands to shield himself from the divine wrath of Nature which seeks to destroy him at every side. This state of existence is closer to our natural environment, but without the construct of human fellowship to perpetuate it generationally, such attempts at freedom end up as little more than temporary forays into the dark.

The Left Hand Path is the path of Pleasure and Power. To explain it accurately would require a thorough definition of the latter two terms, the exposition of which would fill several books. The initiate is best left to his/her own devices, to find out the truth through his own actions and experiences.
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#56156 - 06/22/11 01:28 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: The Zebu]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
Great power comes from working together and compromise. The main point of my pragmatic post was the same as this one- results oriented.

Every satanist should seek to be all he can be so to speak even if he is at the bottom of a wolf pack. better to be at the bottom of a wolf pack than at the head of a herd of sheep. Thus it is more about your internal character than your rank in the outside world. But definitely the outer reflects the inner.
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#56158 - 06/22/11 01:51 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: The Zebu]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Thanks for you answer Zebu.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
what matters is the reason why, and what they get out of it.


This is exactly my point, as you say, it matters what we get out of it. If i achieve nothing but beeing a low life, that probably means that one might be not so superior to begin with.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
For instance, a Satanist might go into the military for training or experiential purposes. He tolerates the commands of his "superiors" because he intends to get something out of it.


I know what you are saying here, and yes i know, we have to tolerate some stuff we dont like from time to time, but only if we can gain something through it, it does make sense to me. And i personally tend to reduce as many of those tolerate thingies as possible.

Cheers
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#56159 - 06/22/11 01:55 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Thule]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Thule
Thus it is more about your internal character than your rank in the outside world. But definitely the outer reflects the inner.


But shouldnt a great satanic character automatically lead to a higher rank in the outside world ? And if the outside world is not important at all to you, what is it then you are trying to achieve ? Having power and pleasure all for yourself might work for some, but that is not what i try to achieve with Satanism.

Cheers
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#56168 - 06/22/11 06:22 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



How does that goddamned quote from Scarface (with Pacino) go?

"First you get the money, then you get the power and then you get the women."

Something to that effect. The fact that it was said with a sleazy sort of accent works well with it sentiments.

Good life guiding quote though.


Edited by MatthewJ1 (06/22/11 06:23 PM)

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#56172 - 06/22/11 07:11 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
This is where I run into rocky ground with modern Satanism. To me the idea of just being 'successful', within the system, has very little to do with Satanism itself. Satanism is 'activity', ie, becoming the adversary to the bullshit thrown before us. Claiming that comes part and parcel with mandatory participation in the very thing 'Satan'(insofar as 'he' is relevant to me at least) stands against is pretty counter intuitive.

The idea of being a housepet of society while taking the devils name reeks of hypocrisy to me. That is not to say there is anything wrong with living well, just that defining yourself by their standards is playing their game.
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#56180 - 06/22/11 10:18 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



This post of mine represents my own particular point of view and it may be based upon a mis-reading of the content and intentions of your post Dan.

If there has been a mis-reading then I apologise in advance.

If I adopt an overly diplomatic type of language to articulate my view, then it is only because I think the topic particularly important and should be dealt with seriously.

I would like to make a claim at the outset: I would like to claim that your post has identified or disclosed the central problem of contemporary Satanism as I understand it.

Before I articulate that problem from my perspective I wanted to draw attention to the interesting use of the words "modern Satanism." Maybe I am being overly sensitive to the Modern/Postmodern debate in the arts and humanities etc. but I found it very interesting that these words were used in the post.

My reading of the post led me to draw the conclusion that (as per the post) there is a modern, or a Modern Satanism, which can be identified and distinguished from something else. I presume, at this stage, that this something else is a postmodern Satanism or a Postmodern Satanism.

I have not had a chance to really sit down and analyse Jason King’s work, but do understand that his modern/postmodern Satanism division may be a different one than a Modern/Postmodern Satanism division, based upon the sorts of claims made and debates engaged in within the arts and humanities.

It is interesting though that this division or this distinction has cropped up here. I think it may now be underpinning a lot of conversation in the Satanic community.

Anyway here is the central problem of contemporary Satanism as I see it and this problem appears to be linked to this question of the division or distinction between a modern/postmodern Satanism, or a Modern/Postmodern Satanism and the definition of both, at least for me. Here it is:

How can the adversarial nature of Satan be reconciled with the reality principle?

Or, in other words, how can the adversarial nature of Satan be reconciled against an individuals need to successfully live in the world with its system of constraints?

The problem of the adversary is central and appears to come up again and again in a lot of threads. Maybe this is an old problem. Others may be able to clarify?

Anyway to unpack a little:

How far does this adversarialism of the Satanist extend? Does one rebel against the social controls and institutions through forms of protest, alternative ways of life, or by self- imposed exclusion alone?

Does one go to the extent of forming underground cells dedicated to murder and practical acts of revolution?

Or does the individual murder and engage in other so called “criminal” actions alone?

Or, does one just hold up the mirror at society and hypocrisy and live well and successfully?

Or, does one define themselves by their own standards and try to live authentically within that somehow?

Or, is it all of the above?

Lately I have been stressing the position of balance in Satanism. Balance seemed to answer this question of the actions of the adversary in his relation to the reality principle.

If freedom, personal happiness and the creation and projection of a subjective universe are desirable, then I can only achieve this within the context of responsibility and realism and an appreciation of the possible effects of actions.

Godhood confers upon the individual the right to determine the personal ethical system underpinning choices and actions beyond codes of Good and evil, but realism and an appreciation of consequences determines the limitations of any such choices and actions. Holding up the mirror and pointing out the hypocrisy and living outside the system if possible are upheld as well.

This seems to me to be the current position of the hierarchy of the Church of Satan and it does make sense to me.

I would also tend to suggest that it is/was the position of Dr. LaVey and I believe Dr. Aquino as well, but I leave that to Jake and the Dr to confirm or call me on that.

I find that the notion of the puppet master is a pertinent one here with regard to the individual Satanist who wishes to succeed by using the system to their own advantage. The figures of Stanton Carlisle and maybe Wolf Larsen crop up for me here. One is cynical and manipulates others in order to rise to the top, and the other is a mix of opposites: both brutal and cultured; hard and philosophical, he is a balanced figure or a manifestation of the third side.

Shit, anyway this post has blown out. Big questions here for me.

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#56187 - 06/23/11 07:19 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
The idea of being a housepet of society while taking the devils name reeks of hypocrisy to me. That is not to say there is anything wrong with living well, just that defining yourself by their standards is playing their game.


I totally agree here with you Dan. There is a thin line between becoming the housepet of society and just exploiting the system to your own advances. The line might be drawn between, as Dr. LaVey called it - indulgence vs. compulsion. Which i think fits very well here. And since probably most of us have to deal with living a "modern society", having success and dont have to deal with a 9 to 5 job, can lead to more time experiencing the LHP in my view.
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#56190 - 06/23/11 02:36 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1737
Loc: New York
For the most part I whole heartedly agree with the Original Poster.
Unfortunately in my case he hits the nail on the head as to where I find myself falling way too short of being Satanic.

I’m working in a job that I absolutely hate. Although some of the people that I know in the real world think that I have it together and that I’m doing fairly well, I find myself each night at work hating a part of myself for being there, and it is a judgement that I put on myself without any regard or care as to how others view me. I continue to be my harshest critic.

On the other hand I know why I continue to work in such an environment.
The main reason is that I can comfortably save half of my net income because I do get paid a fair salary, which in time will hopefully allow me to have enough money to make some kind of a move for the better.
Second, I would have to pull a major fuck up to get fired. Being laid off for lack of work is impossible, and with the economy and the job market being as it is I think that I can weather the storm until it blows over.

Perhaps the only Satanic virtue, that I allow myself to believe that I have in regards to my job, is that I do not kid myself in anyway about how I feel and will not lie to myself about the situation to make it seem better then it is.

With that said I continue to look daily for something else that would be more to my liking, while not feeling as if I have to accept just anything like I might feel if I managed to get myself unemployed without an income.

My subjective view of Satanism does not accept working for others and having to take any kind of orders from others as being truly a Self Actualized Satanist and it is something that I continue to struggle with each day.
However, being on welfare and relying on handout from individuals or a government source would be much worse.
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#56191 - 06/23/11 03:02 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Clicks Offline
member


Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
Mr. Sir, allow me to let you in on my point of view.

You see, I am a Satanist, and I am a Marine. Some, such as yourself, see these 2 labels as being incompatible. I really can't fathom why. It's a means to an end, for me, and it comes with great sacrifice, and also, great rewards. I hate to see those that think they will gain the world without breaking a sweat or playing by someone else' rules.

This is my situation and what I plan on doing: I have a 5 year contract. That's 5 years of utter bullshit, and the whole time I'm going to be stuck down near the bottom of the ladder because my MOS hardly ever promotes anyone. However, I use the free tuition assistance to take college classes which I am striving my hardest to gain a bachelor's degree with before my contract is up in 2 years. After my enlistment ends, I have the GI Bill to spend on further education, and passed that, the Hazelwood Act in Texas, which is my current home of record, to spend to further my education even more. And the whole time I'm waiting for my enlistment to run out, I'm getting paid more than my sergeant because of the languages I know, I get left alone for the most part in the office because I do my job damn well, I'm being forced to be in better shape than I probably would have been had I not joined, I'm getting to go to other countries and catch as many STD's as I can handle, I have an opportunity to talk to and associate with people from all over the country and world thereby lending me new wisdom with which to gain more experience by, and at the end of the pay cycle, I'm sitting in excess cash I couldn't get around to spending because I take home more after expenses than those in my same age bracket in the civilian world. So, I don't mind keeping this job for 5 years if it's allowing me to be set up this well and allowing me ample time to pursue my interests. I still sit around for hours most days practicing my instruments. I still am able to learn new programming languages on my own time. I am still able to get drunk off my ass in the middle of New Orleans and get my dick sucked in a bar bathroom.

The point is, I chose my path with a purpose in mind and am making the best of it I possibly can, while doing what I still love to do, and will receive benefits still after. I call that Satanic.
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