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#56197 - 06/23/11 04:37 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Clicks]
MindFux Offline
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Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
The way I see it is pretty much like this. In order for a 'Satanist' to be able to say, "I'm not just a social reject that believes myself to be 'Elite'", said Satanist should be able to succeed within the confines of the system. That doesn't mean it's the measure of the man by any means - but it's a key test that an individual can perform on themselves as to who is rejecting who. (Is the system rejecting the person, or is the person rejecting the system willfully, one is Satanic, the other is just failure).

I also don't think that living well is a Satanic crime, and Clicks, your post above is a fine example of using trappings of the System to gain or achieve your own ends. As to whether those ends themselves are Satanic or not is up to individual interpretation.

All I would say is that there comes a time when, in order to -be- the adversary, you have to begin to do adversarial things. For me personally I tend to find restrictions that the system imposes massively restrictive to my own manifestation of what I want to do, so I transgress when it suits me. (If I feel I need to in order to learn something about myself.) Some of these are 'one way deeds' so to speak that can't be undone.

I take issue when Satanism becomes 'doing well within the system but thinking a little differently' because to me that seems less 'being the adversary' and more 'being intelligent and capable'. Naturally being 'intelligent and capable' are indeed things to be proud of, but they aren't inherently 'Satanic' or adversarial or counter cultural on their own. It is when they are applied to being counter cultural, or adversarial where it hits the mark in my view. Part of being counter cultural for me is acting solidly in ones own self interest without regard for the system. The natural result of so doing for most is natural, semi-constant transgression of the 'rules', 'laws' and 'morals' of the system itself.

MF.

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#56198 - 06/23/11 05:12 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: MindFux]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Correct. Living well is no sin, and succeeding is no sellout. I would challenge ANYONE to show where I've sold out just because I have been successful in life. I am as much a Satanist now as I was THEN, and having made a bit of money gives leeway to live the way I want and do what I want.

I've seen some posts around the web where people seem to think having money and things is a detriment to being a Satanist. OK. If you REALLY feel that way, put your money where your mouth is and give it up. I will gladly take that dirty cash off of your hands... sounds a lot like "sell what thou hast, pick up the cross and follow me."

When all else fails, people, THINK. PLEASE.

The idea of the heirarchy being comprised of successful individuals is saying that you can't expect people to listen to you tell them how ANY philosophy of life is going to benefit them if they can't see that it's benefitted you. If you want to know how to be an architect, to you ask the guy who built his very own swingset in his very own back yard, or the man who builds a skyscraper? If you want to be financially independent, do you talk to your local rag picker, or a reputable financial consultant? If you're going to learn the whys and wherefores of a system or philosophy, are you going to look for someone who's thrived within it, or be the dweeb who reads a book and trusts to Wikipedia?
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#56199 - 06/23/11 05:43 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Let's be honest; if financial or societal success was related to religion or philosophies, we better convert to Judaism or Christianity because Satanism isn't exemplary at that.

We just rock because we tend to compare ourselves with paupers and then act as if we're doing it splendid at that level.

In the end, success and cash depend upon luck or specific qualities which might be handy to a satanist but does not really make one.

D.

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#56201 - 06/23/11 06:50 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Clicks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
Agreed.

And I was tempted to leave it at just that, but obviously thought better of it. It seems I may just be a troll at heart.

But anyway!...Most times, off of first impressions, I can't bring myself to see someone as a Satanist if they claim that a Satanist should be wildly successful in business and should be bringing in the big money. Do they forget one of the main focuses of Satanism, which is following your own path and your own interest? It's not about following anyone else' definition of what a Satanist should be, outside of the broad definition, of course. Some people just aren't interested in big business and trying to get rich. Myself, I'm fine with just getting by if it comes down to that. As long as I still have my instruments and some internet to read from. I also fully plan on keeping a pretty steady low profile job for most of my life, simply because I like experiencing people in the workplace, and I know I get bored as fuck quick as fuck just following my interests all the damn time. I like to have that mundane balancing factor there. You know, the bad makes the good seem that much better and keeps me from always having to find better to keep me satisfied. For me, Satanism is what you make of it, and whatever you accomplish doesn't need to be in the public eye the being meaningful.

EDIT:

I also want to comment on success being luck. It really does come down to circumstance a lot of the time. Circumstance, networking, and your own drive to seize opportunity. To hit it big you need to get in good with the big guys, and most times you just wont get the opportunity to rub shoulders with them. The best you can do is simply to do the best that you can and keep looking for opportunities.


Edited by Clicks (06/23/11 07:00 PM)
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#56212 - 06/24/11 05:46 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Empire of Dread Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Let's be honest; if financial or societal success was related to religion or philosophies, we better convert to Judaism or Christianity because satanism isn't exemplary at that.


This thread really starts to get interesting. Funny that you recommend converting to Christianitiy. The last time I checked, christianity was about the less one has, the bigger the chances to enter their fucked up heaven. While Satanism on the other hand clearly states : Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence (The Satanic Statements Nr. 1) Even though I agree that financial success isnt everything, but again it should come easily to you if have the wisdom and force your will onto others.



 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
In the end, success and cash depend upon luck or specific qualities which might be handy to a satanist but does not really make one.

Oh come on, what has luck to do with this ? And what is luck anyway. Satanism for me is about creating your own reality, and I achieve this with my will and skills and yes, there is also a lot of blood and sweat involved from time to time. Luck has nothing to do with this at all for Me.


Edited by Empire of Dread (06/24/11 05:48 AM)
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#56214 - 06/24/11 08:13 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
MatthewJ1

 Quote:
There is an argument out there that you should be able to prove you are an adept and skilled Satanic magician by setting goals which can be stated and then actually achieving those goals.


This, more than anything else in this thread, rings true to me. I want to clarify however that my view is this and only this. If we are to go by the thread starters definition we get something very different, at least potentially. See if we accept what the outer world regards as success then we may in many cases neglect the much important Nietzschen concept of first destroying the old and then building new. I mean that in the sense that it is a vast difference to accept the rules of the game and succeed in playing the game than it is to making your own game and succeeding at it.

I do not want to submit myself as to what society thinks a successful person is because then I forget my own priorities. And we can also see how shallow much of the world is and I much prefer to work towards something deeper and more true rather than stepping on people to get to the top and earn loads of money.

Now I am doing good financially but I am by no means a high earner. Im far from being low paid as well (allthough I have been on the lowest scale, but in aprestigious place, for about ayear and as far as work goes the most rewarding I have ever done). It is important not to necessarilly measure success in profit. It can be done but then it also has to be true to your intentions and to the life you want to live. Therefore I feel like the quote above is the best description of a person I would praise.

Now of course one cans et easy goals and achieve them without effort which isnt impressive at all but I am assuming that this is not the intended meaning.

Furthermore I see no conflict ina Satanist working with others, taking orders and following leaders is the intended goal is desireable. I had no interest in the military when I was around 18 years old and I did pass on the opportunity to go through military training. However, this is something I regret in some ways today. I have entertained the thought of doing something now but the reality is that I am occupied with other things, things I value more right now, to actually do it. The point is however that sometimes we have to take orders or follow a leader to learn. It is noticed in everyday life. We cant be autodidacts in everything. Most of the time we need the knowledge and experience of other people to develop out own skills in a particular field. I just took up martian arts again and its a great example. Without proper leadership I would have gone nowhere compared to the progress Im doing now. To have an attitude of ”I will never take any orders or follow any leadership” reeks of teenage revolt to me. Nothing wrong with that but once you learn that everything isnt already inside you, that you need outside influence to bring certain things forward, you'll realize that sometimes it is a good means to an end to, for example, join the military.

And to be sure, if you never ever follow any orders or guidlines from people above you you would certainly end up in jail. Society is build on rules and morals for a reason and most people choose live, more or less, within the given rules because thata ctually gives them a certain freedom to develop themselves. Doing the contrary and you would end up spending all your energy running away from the leaders ;\)

And finally, touching on the CoS definition of a person being satanic. They once claimed that Walt Disney was satanic because of his achievements in the real world. This is very strange to me. Having a satanic charachter is about alot more than being successful. It also has to with means and intent.

 Originally Posted By: Empire of Dread
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Let's be honest; if financial or societal success was related to religion or philosophies, we better convert to Judaism or Christianity because satanism isn't exemplary at that.


This thread really starts to get interesting. Funny that you recommend converting to Christianitiy. The last time I checked, christianity was about the less one has, the bigger the chances to enter their fucked up heaven. While Satanism on the other hand clearly states : Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence (The Satanic Statements Nr. 1) Even though I agree that financial success isnt everything, but again it should come easily to you if have the wisdom and force your will onto others.


The point being made is that most self professed Satanists dont tend to be a part of the elite in the society where they lvie. Especially among the online kind. Christians or Jews are way more likely to be in power positions in the real world than a Satanist. It is not a discussion about what a certain religious philosopher claims to be the definition. Diavolo was pointing toward the actual achievments of people of a certain religion.

May I ask you, Empire of Dread, how successful you are in society? Having a grand education? Making shit-loads of money leading your own business?

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#56220 - 06/24/11 12:47 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: TheInsane]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
This, more than anything else in this thread, rings true to me. I want to clarify however that my view is this and only this.


And I totally agree here. This is probably the core of my question and for me, one of the goals is to have enough money, so I can afford to explore myself and my desires. Instead of wasting precious livetime with a stupid job. I also dont care, if society views Me as succesfull,in fact I dont care for the society at all. As long as I reach all of my goals, or even more, that is totally fine with me. And yes I do prefer a quality steak any time over a cheap Cheesburger.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
Furthermore I see no conflict ina Satanist working with others, taking orders and following leaders is the intended goal is desireable.I had no interest in the military when I was around 18 years old and I did pass on the opportunity to go through military training.


I acutally have been in the German Air Force for quite a while, and it was back then, that I realized, I just couldnt take any orders from other people.In fact they tried to break me for 3 years, but couldnt. So they even paid me full for the last year, just to not show up. What made it even worse for my Seargants, was that the team that I was in charge, had the best performance of all. Call it teenage revolt, or whatever your want, but thats just the way I am.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
The point is however that sometimes we have to take orders or follow a leader to learn. It is noticed in everyday life. We cant be autodidacts in everything. Most of the time we need the knowledge and experience of other people to develop out own skills in a particular field.


Indeed there is nothing wrong with taking a shortcut and use the knowledge of others, but I fail to see, why this should make them to my leader. As a critical thinker, I will question everything new anyway,and only if it makes sense or gives me advantages, I will use that knowledge.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
And to be sure, if you never ever follow any orders or guidlines from people above you you would certainly end up in jail. Society is build on rules and morals for a reason and most people choose live, more or less, within the given rules because thata ctually gives them a certain freedom to develop themselves. Doing the contrary and you would end up spending all your energy running away from the leaders ;).

Why are you so obsessed with leaders ? And do you have any idea how far one can stretch those rules, once you gain power and money ? Take the US justice system for example. If you can afford a decent attorney, that will stretch those rules quite a bit for sure.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
May I ask you, Empire of Dread, how successful you are in society? Having a grand education? Making shit-loads of money leading your own business?

You may. I am indeed self-employed and some may even call me a high earner, but I am neither a workaholic nor is my intend to be succesfull in society. I just tend to prefer less work for more money which again leads to more freedom to do what i want. And dont forget about that steak, bye the way ;\)

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Cheers
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#56221 - 06/24/11 01:32 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I find the idea that “when” you have enough money, you can afford to explore yourself a strange one. It's almost like hearing some people here say that when they retire, they're going to travel around and explore the world. I always wonder what is stopping them now.

What is stopping you from exploring yourself right now and why would you even need money for that?

D.

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#56224 - 06/24/11 01:52 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Hey Diavolo,

I never said that only "when" I have enough money, I can explore myself. Its more like a guy who works 10 hours a day, has probably less time for that, than the one working 2 hours a day. And again, thats not the main point of Satanism for me, its just part of the package as I see it.

Cheers
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#56225 - 06/24/11 02:18 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm afraid this is a bit unclear to me and so I must ask; what is not the main point of Satanism? Exploring the self or working?

D.

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#56227 - 06/24/11 02:35 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Hey Diavolo,

I really thought it would be clear where I stand. But since you put your question so nicely - being successful in my normal live or work as you put it, is not the most important aspect of Satanism as I see it. But its still of importance for me personally as I just feel that having success leads to greater overall freedom, which translates into more exploration of the LHP for me and I think success should come naturally to a Satanist, if you use all your abilities wisely.

Cheers
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#56228 - 06/24/11 02:45 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Empire of Dread:

I feel like you misrepresent yourself, deliberately or not, by going from this:

 Quote:
For me personally Satanism is a tool to reach whatever i want, while working with my surroundings and getting the most out of everything for myself. This also includes gaining a lot of power and money, otherwise in my view your are lying to yourself.


To this:

 Quote:
This is probably the core of my question and for me, one of the goals is to have enough money, so I can afford to explore myself and my desires. Instead of wasting precious livetime with a stupid job. I also dont care, if society views Me as succesfull,in fact I dont care for the society at all. As long as I reach all of my goals, or even more, that is totally fine with me.


To me it seemed like you in the first post were suggesting that real world achievements is a foundation you can be judged against as to whether youre satanic or not. This of course leads you to accepts the definition of success that is given in the system you are working in.

And then you seem to drift more towards my point of view but claiming that the money you earn now is somehow related to how you can explore yourself. One of the people in my life that I find alot of inspiration in has probably explored herself more than most people do in their whole lifetime. Even so she was never rich and just as low paid as I when we were working together but she still found ways to be active, explore, travel and do things she wanted and things that she felt fulfilled her wants and needs in a very positive way. I am much more impressed with her than with some of my friends who instead choose to climb the social ladder - earning loads but experience little of their own choosing.


Edit: How has your job now changed your possibilities to explore yourself? What have you been able to do now that you werent able to do before (preferable in a "LHP kind of way" so to speak)?


Edited by TheInsane (06/24/11 02:46 PM)
Edit Reason: Added question.

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#56229 - 06/24/11 03:50 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: TheInsane]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Thanks for your response TheInsane, I really appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

You did catch me there, as my first post was indeed a little provocation to get you in the right mood for this discussion.

To answer your question, I will give you an example from my own experience. I was going to some really bad stages in live, where I had to deal with a lot of ugly problems, up to the extend that problems was all that I could think of the whole day. Long story short - when you are covered in shit, there is no time to think about spiritual freedom.


Cheers
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#56231 - 06/24/11 05:00 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Thanks but you really didnt reply to my question \:\/
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#56232 - 06/24/11 05:33 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Clicks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
As far as I see, I have no problem calling someone a Satanist who gets by with a 9 to 5 job but lives their life the way they want to without fear of falling into debt and having enough cash on hand or another means to explore other interests as they arise. Really, as long as I can afford to keep some guitars and a drum set around, a computer, internet, books, and have the money to interact in the the social world with the people I wish to interact with, I would be fine working night shift at a 7-11.

Some people like living luxuriously, with a big four post-bed, golden toilet seat, and a fridge full of caviar that is stored in another mansion dedicated to caviar. I don't like that. I really don't like having more space than I need. Comfortable to me is cluttered and chaotic to most. I like to live rough, and just a tad dirty. Oh, and woods are cool, too. I like to spend time in the woods.

And honestly, I have no idea how I would handle having tons of money. Right now, I just found a use for the excess money I did have in buying a new, badly needed car. I'm basically breaking even, can't afford to go out into the French Quarter to toss beads at women in exchange for a peek at some titties, but I'm completely fine with it. What's most important to me is myself and my interests, and even though I realise the social interaction is important, it is not at all my favorite thing when it comes to the party scene. Most nights I walk away from the smoke pit in the middle of the barracks after a 4 hour conversation feeling like I just earned my masters degree. That is the kind of interaction I love the most. A bunch of assholes sitting down, smoking too much, drinking a little, and talking about shit that matters. Right now my most rewarding things come at little to no cost to me (although the cigarettes do take up a good chunk of change). But I realise this won't always be this way and this is why I set myself up for later success, whether I need the money or not, simply because I just might, for whatever reason. I don't want to be in the public eye, I don't want to have my name known, and I don't want to have a reputation at all (not to say I want to opposite, but rather that they don't interest me), I simply want to live the way I want, and a moderate amount of success will be required, maybe. But I do not judge myself by the real world success at this point, and if I don't change too much, I most likely won't in the future either. I just want what I need to do what I want and I want no more. Over indulgence is a terrible thing. It ruins what you love most.

Did I mention that I have a 104 degree temperature and feel scatterbrained as fuck right now? Sorry if the post is messy or hard to understand.
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