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#56145 - 06/22/11 03:02 AM Satanism and real live achievments
Empire of Dread Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
I would really like to know your stance on Satanism and real live achievements. What is your take on it ? For me personally Satanism is a tool to reach whatever i want, while working with my surroundings and getting the most out of everything for myself. This also includes gaining a lot of power and money, otherwise in my view your are lying to yourself. For example if you work at your local Walmart or whatever, this is not really satanic for me, as you are on the lowest level and havent reached anything, but if you run your own business and make shit loads of money, we are getting closer to my definition. So what is your take ?

Cheers
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#56146 - 06/22/11 06:52 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



There is an argument out there that you should be able to prove you are an adept and skilled Satanic magician by setting goals which can be stated and then actually achieving those goals.

I know for instance that the Church of Satan feels that a persons place in their organisation should reflect the position they have acheived in the outside world. They prove themselves in the real world and hence to the organisation.

I think this is an achievement oriented religion as you seem to suggest.

I also think that genuine success oriented Satanist's are the total package. That is they are intelligent, have a propensity towards successfully dominating their environments in order to give themselves an advantage over the competition, have a very clear picture of what they want and how to get it and do get it, and can successfully and correctly employ Greater and Lesser Magic to aid them.

One thing I would say: working at Walmart is okay for a young person starting out.

I don't necessarily think a Satanist has to be the head of a corporation or filthy rich to be regarded as a successful Satanist. Some Satanist's just find something they are really good at and just forge ahead and reach their water level, their place. It may be art or music, or just working in an office or doing something else. Maybe teaching or military involvement etc.

I think all Satanist's have a desire to distinguish themselves from those around them and to perceive and express themselves differently.

Water will find its own level and this goes for Satanist's as well.


Edited by MatthewJ1 (06/22/11 06:53 AM)

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#56150 - 06/22/11 08:54 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Hey Matthew,

thanks for your thoughts on this.

While i do agree on most of the stuff you said, i think it is interesting that you mentioned especially the military. This is where it really gets tricky for me, how can you claim to be satanic if the main thing you do at work is following stupid orders and overall be the chess figure for our fucked up politicians.

I do agree that you don´t need to be the head of a corporation but being ahead of the competition and gain freedom in what you do, is a big chunk for me especially when doing business as well.


Edited by Empire of Dread (06/22/11 09:16 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarified
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#56152 - 06/22/11 09:57 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Empire of Dread
While i do agree on most of the stuff you said, i think it is interesting that you mentioned especially the military. This is where it really gets tricky for me, how can you claim to be satanic if the main thing you do at work is following stupid orders and overall be the chess figure for our fucked up politicians.


Because it's a volunteer army (at least in the US).

Power, money, running a company, all the things you mention involve many other people. It's extremely unlikely that you'll just fall into "getting" all of that.

Like most of us, you will have to work for your rewards. You will find that much of life involves choice and compromise, or that there are greater opportunities associated with some compromise than those without.

For instance, if you desire self-discipline, a good exercise regimen, some help with college tuition, and a big resume bump (to most employers), a stint in the military seems like a pretty good means to those ends, doesn't it?

As a side note, once you get the money and power, it will be you giving the stupid orders or being a fucked up politician. Judge not, not lest ye be judged, but lest ye waste your time and energy on useless judgment. Spend your time learning the rules of the games you choose to play; spend your energy being the best at those games. Nobody likes a whiner.
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#56153 - 06/22/11 10:24 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Autodidact]
Empire of Dread Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact


Because it's a volunteer army (at least in the US).

Power, money, running a company, all the things you mention involve many other people. It's extremely unlikely that you'll just fall into "getting" all of that.


Beeing in a volunteer army, does make it even worse from my view. Since you are not forced to go to the army, it is your act of free will to accept the orders of others. And i will never do that for sure.

And yes its not like you fall into getting all those stuff like money and whatever, no its there because i take it, because it is my will and if i am the fittest on the block, i will happily take it, with an evil grin on my face ;\) and yes this involves other people, but you always exploit them if you are smart enough.

Cheers

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#56154 - 06/22/11 11:09 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
It matters little what or where a Satanist does and goes in his/her path-- what matters is the reason why, and what they get out of it.

For instance, a Satanist might go into the military for training or experiential purposes. He tolerates the commands of his "superiors" because he intends to get something out of it.

We do this all the time, not just in the army.

We all "accept" external control mechanisms throughout our lives. If we live in modern society, we have our corporate Archons demanding blood money and blind obedience to the state, a standard most people are all too happy to placidly accept. Here the commanding officers do not bark orders into megaphones or run their underlings through obstacle courses-- we are instead subjected to a subtle and subversive torrent of advertising, consumerist programming, and propaganda that keeps us in rank and file, working nine-to-five jobs every day while making sure we don't raise too much of a fuss.

If one seeks power, to dominate the system and twist it to his own ends, he is faced with the uncomfortable fact that he rules a world of fools. Attempting to radically change human nature to fit his own personal ideal is a fool's errand that too many would-be ideologues have fallen prey to, and history is littered with their half-finished wrecks.

If one tears free from modern society, he has nothing left but his own two hands to shield himself from the divine wrath of Nature which seeks to destroy him at every side. This state of existence is closer to our natural environment, but without the construct of human fellowship to perpetuate it generationally, such attempts at freedom end up as little more than temporary forays into the dark.

The Left Hand Path is the path of Pleasure and Power. To explain it accurately would require a thorough definition of the latter two terms, the exposition of which would fill several books. The initiate is best left to his/her own devices, to find out the truth through his own actions and experiences.
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#56156 - 06/22/11 01:28 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: The Zebu]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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Great power comes from working together and compromise. The main point of my pragmatic post was the same as this one- results oriented.

Every satanist should seek to be all he can be so to speak even if he is at the bottom of a wolf pack. better to be at the bottom of a wolf pack than at the head of a herd of sheep. Thus it is more about your internal character than your rank in the outside world. But definitely the outer reflects the inner.
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#56158 - 06/22/11 01:51 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: The Zebu]
Empire of Dread Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Thanks for you answer Zebu.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
what matters is the reason why, and what they get out of it.


This is exactly my point, as you say, it matters what we get out of it. If i achieve nothing but beeing a low life, that probably means that one might be not so superior to begin with.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
For instance, a Satanist might go into the military for training or experiential purposes. He tolerates the commands of his "superiors" because he intends to get something out of it.


I know what you are saying here, and yes i know, we have to tolerate some stuff we dont like from time to time, but only if we can gain something through it, it does make sense to me. And i personally tend to reduce as many of those tolerate thingies as possible.

Cheers
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#56159 - 06/22/11 01:55 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Thule]
Empire of Dread Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Thule
Thus it is more about your internal character than your rank in the outside world. But definitely the outer reflects the inner.


But shouldnt a great satanic character automatically lead to a higher rank in the outside world ? And if the outside world is not important at all to you, what is it then you are trying to achieve ? Having power and pleasure all for yourself might work for some, but that is not what i try to achieve with Satanism.

Cheers
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#56168 - 06/22/11 06:22 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



How does that goddamned quote from Scarface (with Pacino) go?

"First you get the money, then you get the power and then you get the women."

Something to that effect. The fact that it was said with a sleazy sort of accent works well with it sentiments.

Good life guiding quote though.


Edited by MatthewJ1 (06/22/11 06:23 PM)

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#56172 - 06/22/11 07:11 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Loc: Vancouver, Canada
This is where I run into rocky ground with modern Satanism. To me the idea of just being 'successful', within the system, has very little to do with Satanism itself. Satanism is 'activity', ie, becoming the adversary to the bullshit thrown before us. Claiming that comes part and parcel with mandatory participation in the very thing 'Satan'(insofar as 'he' is relevant to me at least) stands against is pretty counter intuitive.

The idea of being a housepet of society while taking the devils name reeks of hypocrisy to me. That is not to say there is anything wrong with living well, just that defining yourself by their standards is playing their game.
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#56180 - 06/22/11 10:18 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



This post of mine represents my own particular point of view and it may be based upon a mis-reading of the content and intentions of your post Dan.

If there has been a mis-reading then I apologise in advance.

If I adopt an overly diplomatic type of language to articulate my view, then it is only because I think the topic particularly important and should be dealt with seriously.

I would like to make a claim at the outset: I would like to claim that your post has identified or disclosed the central problem of contemporary Satanism as I understand it.

Before I articulate that problem from my perspective I wanted to draw attention to the interesting use of the words "modern Satanism." Maybe I am being overly sensitive to the Modern/Postmodern debate in the arts and humanities etc. but I found it very interesting that these words were used in the post.

My reading of the post led me to draw the conclusion that (as per the post) there is a modern, or a Modern Satanism, which can be identified and distinguished from something else. I presume, at this stage, that this something else is a postmodern Satanism or a Postmodern Satanism.

I have not had a chance to really sit down and analyse Jason King’s work, but do understand that his modern/postmodern Satanism division may be a different one than a Modern/Postmodern Satanism division, based upon the sorts of claims made and debates engaged in within the arts and humanities.

It is interesting though that this division or this distinction has cropped up here. I think it may now be underpinning a lot of conversation in the Satanic community.

Anyway here is the central problem of contemporary Satanism as I see it and this problem appears to be linked to this question of the division or distinction between a modern/postmodern Satanism, or a Modern/Postmodern Satanism and the definition of both, at least for me. Here it is:

How can the adversarial nature of Satan be reconciled with the reality principle?

Or, in other words, how can the adversarial nature of Satan be reconciled against an individuals need to successfully live in the world with its system of constraints?

The problem of the adversary is central and appears to come up again and again in a lot of threads. Maybe this is an old problem. Others may be able to clarify?

Anyway to unpack a little:

How far does this adversarialism of the Satanist extend? Does one rebel against the social controls and institutions through forms of protest, alternative ways of life, or by self- imposed exclusion alone?

Does one go to the extent of forming underground cells dedicated to murder and practical acts of revolution?

Or does the individual murder and engage in other so called “criminal” actions alone?

Or, does one just hold up the mirror at society and hypocrisy and live well and successfully?

Or, does one define themselves by their own standards and try to live authentically within that somehow?

Or, is it all of the above?

Lately I have been stressing the position of balance in Satanism. Balance seemed to answer this question of the actions of the adversary in his relation to the reality principle.

If freedom, personal happiness and the creation and projection of a subjective universe are desirable, then I can only achieve this within the context of responsibility and realism and an appreciation of the possible effects of actions.

Godhood confers upon the individual the right to determine the personal ethical system underpinning choices and actions beyond codes of Good and evil, but realism and an appreciation of consequences determines the limitations of any such choices and actions. Holding up the mirror and pointing out the hypocrisy and living outside the system if possible are upheld as well.

This seems to me to be the current position of the hierarchy of the Church of Satan and it does make sense to me.

I would also tend to suggest that it is/was the position of Dr. LaVey and I believe Dr. Aquino as well, but I leave that to Jake and the Dr to confirm or call me on that.

I find that the notion of the puppet master is a pertinent one here with regard to the individual Satanist who wishes to succeed by using the system to their own advantage. The figures of Stanton Carlisle and maybe Wolf Larsen crop up for me here. One is cynical and manipulates others in order to rise to the top, and the other is a mix of opposites: both brutal and cultured; hard and philosophical, he is a balanced figure or a manifestation of the third side.

Shit, anyway this post has blown out. Big questions here for me.

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#56187 - 06/23/11 07:19 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
Empire of Dread Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
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Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
The idea of being a housepet of society while taking the devils name reeks of hypocrisy to me. That is not to say there is anything wrong with living well, just that defining yourself by their standards is playing their game.


I totally agree here with you Dan. There is a thin line between becoming the housepet of society and just exploiting the system to your own advances. The line might be drawn between, as Dr. LaVey called it - indulgence vs. compulsion. Which i think fits very well here. And since probably most of us have to deal with living a "modern society", having success and dont have to deal with a 9 to 5 job, can lead to more time experiencing the LHP in my view.
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#56190 - 06/23/11 02:36 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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For the most part I whole heartedly agree with the Original Poster.
Unfortunately in my case he hits the nail on the head as to where I find myself falling way too short of being Satanic.

I’m working in a job that I absolutely hate. Although some of the people that I know in the real world think that I have it together and that I’m doing fairly well, I find myself each night at work hating a part of myself for being there, and it is a judgement that I put on myself without any regard or care as to how others view me. I continue to be my harshest critic.

On the other hand I know why I continue to work in such an environment.
The main reason is that I can comfortably save half of my net income because I do get paid a fair salary, which in time will hopefully allow me to have enough money to make some kind of a move for the better.
Second, I would have to pull a major fuck up to get fired. Being laid off for lack of work is impossible, and with the economy and the job market being as it is I think that I can weather the storm until it blows over.

Perhaps the only Satanic virtue, that I allow myself to believe that I have in regards to my job, is that I do not kid myself in anyway about how I feel and will not lie to myself about the situation to make it seem better then it is.

With that said I continue to look daily for something else that would be more to my liking, while not feeling as if I have to accept just anything like I might feel if I managed to get myself unemployed without an income.

My subjective view of Satanism does not accept working for others and having to take any kind of orders from others as being truly a Self Actualized Satanist and it is something that I continue to struggle with each day.
However, being on welfare and relying on handout from individuals or a government source would be much worse.
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#56191 - 06/23/11 03:02 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Clicks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
Mr. Sir, allow me to let you in on my point of view.

You see, I am a Satanist, and I am a Marine. Some, such as yourself, see these 2 labels as being incompatible. I really can't fathom why. It's a means to an end, for me, and it comes with great sacrifice, and also, great rewards. I hate to see those that think they will gain the world without breaking a sweat or playing by someone else' rules.

This is my situation and what I plan on doing: I have a 5 year contract. That's 5 years of utter bullshit, and the whole time I'm going to be stuck down near the bottom of the ladder because my MOS hardly ever promotes anyone. However, I use the free tuition assistance to take college classes which I am striving my hardest to gain a bachelor's degree with before my contract is up in 2 years. After my enlistment ends, I have the GI Bill to spend on further education, and passed that, the Hazelwood Act in Texas, which is my current home of record, to spend to further my education even more. And the whole time I'm waiting for my enlistment to run out, I'm getting paid more than my sergeant because of the languages I know, I get left alone for the most part in the office because I do my job damn well, I'm being forced to be in better shape than I probably would have been had I not joined, I'm getting to go to other countries and catch as many STD's as I can handle, I have an opportunity to talk to and associate with people from all over the country and world thereby lending me new wisdom with which to gain more experience by, and at the end of the pay cycle, I'm sitting in excess cash I couldn't get around to spending because I take home more after expenses than those in my same age bracket in the civilian world. So, I don't mind keeping this job for 5 years if it's allowing me to be set up this well and allowing me ample time to pursue my interests. I still sit around for hours most days practicing my instruments. I still am able to learn new programming languages on my own time. I am still able to get drunk off my ass in the middle of New Orleans and get my dick sucked in a bar bathroom.

The point is, I chose my path with a purpose in mind and am making the best of it I possibly can, while doing what I still love to do, and will receive benefits still after. I call that Satanic.
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#56197 - 06/23/11 04:37 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Clicks]
MindFux Offline
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Posts: 174
The way I see it is pretty much like this. In order for a 'Satanist' to be able to say, "I'm not just a social reject that believes myself to be 'Elite'", said Satanist should be able to succeed within the confines of the system. That doesn't mean it's the measure of the man by any means - but it's a key test that an individual can perform on themselves as to who is rejecting who. (Is the system rejecting the person, or is the person rejecting the system willfully, one is Satanic, the other is just failure).

I also don't think that living well is a Satanic crime, and Clicks, your post above is a fine example of using trappings of the System to gain or achieve your own ends. As to whether those ends themselves are Satanic or not is up to individual interpretation.

All I would say is that there comes a time when, in order to -be- the adversary, you have to begin to do adversarial things. For me personally I tend to find restrictions that the system imposes massively restrictive to my own manifestation of what I want to do, so I transgress when it suits me. (If I feel I need to in order to learn something about myself.) Some of these are 'one way deeds' so to speak that can't be undone.

I take issue when Satanism becomes 'doing well within the system but thinking a little differently' because to me that seems less 'being the adversary' and more 'being intelligent and capable'. Naturally being 'intelligent and capable' are indeed things to be proud of, but they aren't inherently 'Satanic' or adversarial or counter cultural on their own. It is when they are applied to being counter cultural, or adversarial where it hits the mark in my view. Part of being counter cultural for me is acting solidly in ones own self interest without regard for the system. The natural result of so doing for most is natural, semi-constant transgression of the 'rules', 'laws' and 'morals' of the system itself.

MF.

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#56198 - 06/23/11 05:12 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: MindFux]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Correct. Living well is no sin, and succeeding is no sellout. I would challenge ANYONE to show where I've sold out just because I have been successful in life. I am as much a Satanist now as I was THEN, and having made a bit of money gives leeway to live the way I want and do what I want.

I've seen some posts around the web where people seem to think having money and things is a detriment to being a Satanist. OK. If you REALLY feel that way, put your money where your mouth is and give it up. I will gladly take that dirty cash off of your hands... sounds a lot like "sell what thou hast, pick up the cross and follow me."

When all else fails, people, THINK. PLEASE.

The idea of the heirarchy being comprised of successful individuals is saying that you can't expect people to listen to you tell them how ANY philosophy of life is going to benefit them if they can't see that it's benefitted you. If you want to know how to be an architect, to you ask the guy who built his very own swingset in his very own back yard, or the man who builds a skyscraper? If you want to be financially independent, do you talk to your local rag picker, or a reputable financial consultant? If you're going to learn the whys and wherefores of a system or philosophy, are you going to look for someone who's thrived within it, or be the dweeb who reads a book and trusts to Wikipedia?
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#56199 - 06/23/11 05:43 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Let's be honest; if financial or societal success was related to religion or philosophies, we better convert to Judaism or Christianity because Satanism isn't exemplary at that.

We just rock because we tend to compare ourselves with paupers and then act as if we're doing it splendid at that level.

In the end, success and cash depend upon luck or specific qualities which might be handy to a satanist but does not really make one.

D.

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#56201 - 06/23/11 06:50 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Clicks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
Agreed.

And I was tempted to leave it at just that, but obviously thought better of it. It seems I may just be a troll at heart.

But anyway!...Most times, off of first impressions, I can't bring myself to see someone as a Satanist if they claim that a Satanist should be wildly successful in business and should be bringing in the big money. Do they forget one of the main focuses of Satanism, which is following your own path and your own interest? It's not about following anyone else' definition of what a Satanist should be, outside of the broad definition, of course. Some people just aren't interested in big business and trying to get rich. Myself, I'm fine with just getting by if it comes down to that. As long as I still have my instruments and some internet to read from. I also fully plan on keeping a pretty steady low profile job for most of my life, simply because I like experiencing people in the workplace, and I know I get bored as fuck quick as fuck just following my interests all the damn time. I like to have that mundane balancing factor there. You know, the bad makes the good seem that much better and keeps me from always having to find better to keep me satisfied. For me, Satanism is what you make of it, and whatever you accomplish doesn't need to be in the public eye the being meaningful.

EDIT:

I also want to comment on success being luck. It really does come down to circumstance a lot of the time. Circumstance, networking, and your own drive to seize opportunity. To hit it big you need to get in good with the big guys, and most times you just wont get the opportunity to rub shoulders with them. The best you can do is simply to do the best that you can and keep looking for opportunities.


Edited by Clicks (06/23/11 07:00 PM)
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#56212 - 06/24/11 05:46 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Empire of Dread Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Let's be honest; if financial or societal success was related to religion or philosophies, we better convert to Judaism or Christianity because satanism isn't exemplary at that.


This thread really starts to get interesting. Funny that you recommend converting to Christianitiy. The last time I checked, christianity was about the less one has, the bigger the chances to enter their fucked up heaven. While Satanism on the other hand clearly states : Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence (The Satanic Statements Nr. 1) Even though I agree that financial success isnt everything, but again it should come easily to you if have the wisdom and force your will onto others.



 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
In the end, success and cash depend upon luck or specific qualities which might be handy to a satanist but does not really make one.

Oh come on, what has luck to do with this ? And what is luck anyway. Satanism for me is about creating your own reality, and I achieve this with my will and skills and yes, there is also a lot of blood and sweat involved from time to time. Luck has nothing to do with this at all for Me.


Edited by Empire of Dread (06/24/11 05:48 AM)
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#56214 - 06/24/11 08:13 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
MatthewJ1

 Quote:
There is an argument out there that you should be able to prove you are an adept and skilled Satanic magician by setting goals which can be stated and then actually achieving those goals.


This, more than anything else in this thread, rings true to me. I want to clarify however that my view is this and only this. If we are to go by the thread starters definition we get something very different, at least potentially. See if we accept what the outer world regards as success then we may in many cases neglect the much important Nietzschen concept of first destroying the old and then building new. I mean that in the sense that it is a vast difference to accept the rules of the game and succeed in playing the game than it is to making your own game and succeeding at it.

I do not want to submit myself as to what society thinks a successful person is because then I forget my own priorities. And we can also see how shallow much of the world is and I much prefer to work towards something deeper and more true rather than stepping on people to get to the top and earn loads of money.

Now I am doing good financially but I am by no means a high earner. Im far from being low paid as well (allthough I have been on the lowest scale, but in aprestigious place, for about ayear and as far as work goes the most rewarding I have ever done). It is important not to necessarilly measure success in profit. It can be done but then it also has to be true to your intentions and to the life you want to live. Therefore I feel like the quote above is the best description of a person I would praise.

Now of course one cans et easy goals and achieve them without effort which isnt impressive at all but I am assuming that this is not the intended meaning.

Furthermore I see no conflict ina Satanist working with others, taking orders and following leaders is the intended goal is desireable. I had no interest in the military when I was around 18 years old and I did pass on the opportunity to go through military training. However, this is something I regret in some ways today. I have entertained the thought of doing something now but the reality is that I am occupied with other things, things I value more right now, to actually do it. The point is however that sometimes we have to take orders or follow a leader to learn. It is noticed in everyday life. We cant be autodidacts in everything. Most of the time we need the knowledge and experience of other people to develop out own skills in a particular field. I just took up martian arts again and its a great example. Without proper leadership I would have gone nowhere compared to the progress Im doing now. To have an attitude of ”I will never take any orders or follow any leadership” reeks of teenage revolt to me. Nothing wrong with that but once you learn that everything isnt already inside you, that you need outside influence to bring certain things forward, you'll realize that sometimes it is a good means to an end to, for example, join the military.

And to be sure, if you never ever follow any orders or guidlines from people above you you would certainly end up in jail. Society is build on rules and morals for a reason and most people choose live, more or less, within the given rules because thata ctually gives them a certain freedom to develop themselves. Doing the contrary and you would end up spending all your energy running away from the leaders ;\)

And finally, touching on the CoS definition of a person being satanic. They once claimed that Walt Disney was satanic because of his achievements in the real world. This is very strange to me. Having a satanic charachter is about alot more than being successful. It also has to with means and intent.

 Originally Posted By: Empire of Dread
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Let's be honest; if financial or societal success was related to religion or philosophies, we better convert to Judaism or Christianity because satanism isn't exemplary at that.


This thread really starts to get interesting. Funny that you recommend converting to Christianitiy. The last time I checked, christianity was about the less one has, the bigger the chances to enter their fucked up heaven. While Satanism on the other hand clearly states : Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence (The Satanic Statements Nr. 1) Even though I agree that financial success isnt everything, but again it should come easily to you if have the wisdom and force your will onto others.


The point being made is that most self professed Satanists dont tend to be a part of the elite in the society where they lvie. Especially among the online kind. Christians or Jews are way more likely to be in power positions in the real world than a Satanist. It is not a discussion about what a certain religious philosopher claims to be the definition. Diavolo was pointing toward the actual achievments of people of a certain religion.

May I ask you, Empire of Dread, how successful you are in society? Having a grand education? Making shit-loads of money leading your own business?

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#56220 - 06/24/11 12:47 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: TheInsane]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
This, more than anything else in this thread, rings true to me. I want to clarify however that my view is this and only this.


And I totally agree here. This is probably the core of my question and for me, one of the goals is to have enough money, so I can afford to explore myself and my desires. Instead of wasting precious livetime with a stupid job. I also dont care, if society views Me as succesfull,in fact I dont care for the society at all. As long as I reach all of my goals, or even more, that is totally fine with me. And yes I do prefer a quality steak any time over a cheap Cheesburger.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
Furthermore I see no conflict ina Satanist working with others, taking orders and following leaders is the intended goal is desireable.I had no interest in the military when I was around 18 years old and I did pass on the opportunity to go through military training.


I acutally have been in the German Air Force for quite a while, and it was back then, that I realized, I just couldnt take any orders from other people.In fact they tried to break me for 3 years, but couldnt. So they even paid me full for the last year, just to not show up. What made it even worse for my Seargants, was that the team that I was in charge, had the best performance of all. Call it teenage revolt, or whatever your want, but thats just the way I am.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
The point is however that sometimes we have to take orders or follow a leader to learn. It is noticed in everyday life. We cant be autodidacts in everything. Most of the time we need the knowledge and experience of other people to develop out own skills in a particular field.


Indeed there is nothing wrong with taking a shortcut and use the knowledge of others, but I fail to see, why this should make them to my leader. As a critical thinker, I will question everything new anyway,and only if it makes sense or gives me advantages, I will use that knowledge.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
And to be sure, if you never ever follow any orders or guidlines from people above you you would certainly end up in jail. Society is build on rules and morals for a reason and most people choose live, more or less, within the given rules because thata ctually gives them a certain freedom to develop themselves. Doing the contrary and you would end up spending all your energy running away from the leaders ;).

Why are you so obsessed with leaders ? And do you have any idea how far one can stretch those rules, once you gain power and money ? Take the US justice system for example. If you can afford a decent attorney, that will stretch those rules quite a bit for sure.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
May I ask you, Empire of Dread, how successful you are in society? Having a grand education? Making shit-loads of money leading your own business?

You may. I am indeed self-employed and some may even call me a high earner, but I am neither a workaholic nor is my intend to be succesfull in society. I just tend to prefer less work for more money which again leads to more freedom to do what i want. And dont forget about that steak, bye the way ;\)

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Cheers
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#56221 - 06/24/11 01:32 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I find the idea that “when” you have enough money, you can afford to explore yourself a strange one. It's almost like hearing some people here say that when they retire, they're going to travel around and explore the world. I always wonder what is stopping them now.

What is stopping you from exploring yourself right now and why would you even need money for that?

D.

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#56224 - 06/24/11 01:52 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Hey Diavolo,

I never said that only "when" I have enough money, I can explore myself. Its more like a guy who works 10 hours a day, has probably less time for that, than the one working 2 hours a day. And again, thats not the main point of Satanism for me, its just part of the package as I see it.

Cheers
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#56225 - 06/24/11 02:18 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm afraid this is a bit unclear to me and so I must ask; what is not the main point of Satanism? Exploring the self or working?

D.

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#56227 - 06/24/11 02:35 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Hey Diavolo,

I really thought it would be clear where I stand. But since you put your question so nicely - being successful in my normal live or work as you put it, is not the most important aspect of Satanism as I see it. But its still of importance for me personally as I just feel that having success leads to greater overall freedom, which translates into more exploration of the LHP for me and I think success should come naturally to a Satanist, if you use all your abilities wisely.

Cheers
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#56228 - 06/24/11 02:45 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Empire of Dread:

I feel like you misrepresent yourself, deliberately or not, by going from this:

 Quote:
For me personally Satanism is a tool to reach whatever i want, while working with my surroundings and getting the most out of everything for myself. This also includes gaining a lot of power and money, otherwise in my view your are lying to yourself.


To this:

 Quote:
This is probably the core of my question and for me, one of the goals is to have enough money, so I can afford to explore myself and my desires. Instead of wasting precious livetime with a stupid job. I also dont care, if society views Me as succesfull,in fact I dont care for the society at all. As long as I reach all of my goals, or even more, that is totally fine with me.


To me it seemed like you in the first post were suggesting that real world achievements is a foundation you can be judged against as to whether youre satanic or not. This of course leads you to accepts the definition of success that is given in the system you are working in.

And then you seem to drift more towards my point of view but claiming that the money you earn now is somehow related to how you can explore yourself. One of the people in my life that I find alot of inspiration in has probably explored herself more than most people do in their whole lifetime. Even so she was never rich and just as low paid as I when we were working together but she still found ways to be active, explore, travel and do things she wanted and things that she felt fulfilled her wants and needs in a very positive way. I am much more impressed with her than with some of my friends who instead choose to climb the social ladder - earning loads but experience little of their own choosing.


Edit: How has your job now changed your possibilities to explore yourself? What have you been able to do now that you werent able to do before (preferable in a "LHP kind of way" so to speak)?


Edited by TheInsane (06/24/11 02:46 PM)
Edit Reason: Added question.

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#56229 - 06/24/11 03:50 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: TheInsane]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Thanks for your response TheInsane, I really appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

You did catch me there, as my first post was indeed a little provocation to get you in the right mood for this discussion.

To answer your question, I will give you an example from my own experience. I was going to some really bad stages in live, where I had to deal with a lot of ugly problems, up to the extend that problems was all that I could think of the whole day. Long story short - when you are covered in shit, there is no time to think about spiritual freedom.


Cheers
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#56231 - 06/24/11 05:00 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Thanks but you really didnt reply to my question \:\/
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#56232 - 06/24/11 05:33 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Clicks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
As far as I see, I have no problem calling someone a Satanist who gets by with a 9 to 5 job but lives their life the way they want to without fear of falling into debt and having enough cash on hand or another means to explore other interests as they arise. Really, as long as I can afford to keep some guitars and a drum set around, a computer, internet, books, and have the money to interact in the the social world with the people I wish to interact with, I would be fine working night shift at a 7-11.

Some people like living luxuriously, with a big four post-bed, golden toilet seat, and a fridge full of caviar that is stored in another mansion dedicated to caviar. I don't like that. I really don't like having more space than I need. Comfortable to me is cluttered and chaotic to most. I like to live rough, and just a tad dirty. Oh, and woods are cool, too. I like to spend time in the woods.

And honestly, I have no idea how I would handle having tons of money. Right now, I just found a use for the excess money I did have in buying a new, badly needed car. I'm basically breaking even, can't afford to go out into the French Quarter to toss beads at women in exchange for a peek at some titties, but I'm completely fine with it. What's most important to me is myself and my interests, and even though I realise the social interaction is important, it is not at all my favorite thing when it comes to the party scene. Most nights I walk away from the smoke pit in the middle of the barracks after a 4 hour conversation feeling like I just earned my masters degree. That is the kind of interaction I love the most. A bunch of assholes sitting down, smoking too much, drinking a little, and talking about shit that matters. Right now my most rewarding things come at little to no cost to me (although the cigarettes do take up a good chunk of change). But I realise this won't always be this way and this is why I set myself up for later success, whether I need the money or not, simply because I just might, for whatever reason. I don't want to be in the public eye, I don't want to have my name known, and I don't want to have a reputation at all (not to say I want to opposite, but rather that they don't interest me), I simply want to live the way I want, and a moderate amount of success will be required, maybe. But I do not judge myself by the real world success at this point, and if I don't change too much, I most likely won't in the future either. I just want what I need to do what I want and I want no more. Over indulgence is a terrible thing. It ruins what you love most.

Did I mention that I have a 104 degree temperature and feel scatterbrained as fuck right now? Sorry if the post is messy or hard to understand.
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#56251 - 06/25/11 11:26 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Clicks]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
@Clicks

My achievements in society's grid are near zero, I weight train and box every day, I do not drink, and don't do drugs. I have never had a mobile phone, never had a TV in my adult life. Nor do I care to have those things. I create minimalist black metal music with lyrics dealing with nature and exemplifying what would be regarded as evil by conventional morality's standards. I too spend time at the woods, sometimes on my laptop. To feel what is there, within and all around, and forget my name and self.

At 31 my physical fitness and prowess in Olympic standards of strength to bodyweight ratio is still close to elite, and at 5'6 / 168lb's 44" chest, 15 3/4" arms, 29" waist. My cardio currently consists of cycling 8 miles and then running my bike on shoulder up to floor 8 of the tower block to finish, 2 times a week as I cut down. 14 years of JKD training, and a few years fencing, has been put to practical use. My achievement is that I can crush a human being proficiently without the use of weapons and have proved that I can devastate armed assailant in seconds, pre-emptively. I am considered a health freak by mundanes. I am in fact a militant Nietzschean and value my health and survival of the fittest through the expression of the will to power.

My partner proves to be in love with me and all I can hope for is that somebody does not do a dishonourable act unto her that defines them suitable for everlasting ignominy, and so forth in death. I am of noble virtue as defined by my past deeds. I feel love as fury and I can honestly say that I have never been anything but determined, so determined that I experience profound disappointment in affirming lacking around me, propelling me to be vigilant and honourable, loyal to my ideals. I have never in my life submitted to anyone or anything external of my own personal honour and ideals.

I have a criminal record for retaliatory violence in domestic and street scenarios, still every court appearance resulted in a not guilty as I was always left with no choice but to act. I still have issues getting a well paid job and keeping. I do sport science studies toward personal trainer qualifications, as my whole life has been dedicated to fitness. I had no formal education and so began to learn from books in my 20's, I have a fondness for Nietzsche and Bruce Lee's philosophy from which I learned much about impulse control and the will to power. Which goes toward having control over my propensities that can be transgressive.

So no impressive achievements. I strive to exemplify strength of body and will and to train young people.

Satanism is a retaliation to the society that lacks value around me as to affirm what is important to me, personally. These are not meaning to be boring words, but simply the mundane reality of what consists of my life.
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#56254 - 06/26/11 03:07 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Hegesias]
Lamar Offline
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Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
A general reply.

We all must work to survive in this world because it takes a job to earn money, with which we buy food and clothing. That's just the way it is. Some make the most of their talents and abilites and get promoted to a better salary. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. For some this is a great accomplishment, they have utilized the system to get ahead of the game and are self-sufficient and independent. Sure they had to take unwanted orders from their superiors or perhaps something contrary to their present happiness, but in the long run it paid off. Do not forget that such is a lesson in lesser magic. From this, I can't understand how the individual is less Satanic because he has manipulated his surroundings to best benefit his desires.

On the other hand as some have already posted, some people do not desire or care for a society and succeeding with in it. I interpret this as making a lot of money. As Hegesias has stated, some people are completely satisfied soaking up nature.

I am much like the original poster, I want money to pay for my pleasure such as my car and drums. Its just that I don't like to work much. I realize though that with this laziness I would not be able to keep gas in my car or keep myself in supply of drum sticks. So for now, my tangible goals are keeping my car running and pursuing my musical projects (which some would deem to be very negative and depressing).

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#56266 - 06/26/11 04:51 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Lamar]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Lamar
So for now, my tangible goals are keeping my car running and pursuing my musical projects (which some would deem to be very negative and depressing).


If anything, you're in a perfectly normal state of Mind. It is called "mental upheaval", and some may be led to consider it as something to be shunned by ordinary people. This is a most mistaken view of your situation, but one unfortunately held by prejudiced critics. An aphorism, "it all depends on the adjustment of the hinge whether the door opens in or out."

The "mental upheaval" is more than that, you have acquired something altogether new. All your activities will be working to a different keynote which will be more satisfying than anything you experienced before. The tone of Life will be altered. There is something rejuvenating in your possession. The subjective revolution that brings about this state of things cannot be called abnormal. When Life becomes more enjoyable and its expanse broadens to include everything that yourself does, there must be something in it that is precious and well worth one's striving after.

the-Dark-Bearer: Katanya
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#56269 - 06/26/11 05:30 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Empire of Dread
I would really like to know your stance on satanism and real live achievements.

Every once in awhile all of the satanatheistic rationalizing really gets to me, and I have these flashback spasms ...

If you had come to me as Priest of Mendes III° in the Nineveh Grotto, Church of Satan, around 1971, I would have said, bluntly, "You will swear your body, mind, and soul to Our Lord Satan in his Rite of Baptism [Satanic Rituals pp.#208-13]; and thereafter, as long as you remain true to your Oath, you shall receive all that you desire and deserve." As, of course, it always came to pass. That was what it meant to be a true Satanist, in a sense that no other religion could even begin to imagine.

Since 1975, however, this door has been closed. The "Church" and its "priesthood" no longer have that authority or power - nor indeed can they even comprehend themselves possessing it. And in the 600C you are posing your question generally to atheists, who are thus limited to counsel concerning rational self-reliance. This is not to belittle RS-R, to be sure; and such advice here has all been thoughtful and commendable.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56275 - 06/27/11 06:44 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I have to hand it to you Dr. You put your view across firmly and fearlessly as usual.

It is an interesting viewpoint as always. I have read a few of the books off the T/S list (as I have mentioned)and have always been impressed by the central importance of the individuals quest for self - realisation, and self - actualisation against or in distinction to a common world of objects and laws, or a predictable mundane existence.

I understand the disclosure of true and authentic consciousness to be determined by process, subject to time as I think the Temple suggests.

Your point of view on Satan in the 1966-1975 Church and then the 1975 breakthrough to a more pure form is interesting as always. Sometimes I wish I could take that further step, but I am an evidence bound animal, so I am not there.

As usual I have my long list of reading material and make all sorts of claims about what will be next on the list. Mr. Conchis is occupying my mind right now and I will review him soon, which I hope people will enjoy.

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#56276 - 06/27/11 12:19 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
Dr. Aquino, I’m not sure how this discussion fits into “satanatheistic rationalizing.” It sounds like you want to flip it into another tired theistic Satanism vs. atheistic Satanism debate. Regardless of one’s leanings with regard to that argument, I think most of us can agree that Satanism, first and foremost, is about forging your own path in life. Whether that means becoming a millionaire, travelling the world on a shoestring budget or simply living a quiet peaceful life with the wife and kids, it all comes down to getting what one wants out of life.

I’m glad I never came to you as a Priest around 1971, because if you had told me to swear my mind, body and soul to “Our Lord Satan,” I would’ve laughed in your face. Satan is not my lord; I am my lord. By the way, how do you know that it always came to pass that those who kept their oath received all that they desired and deserved? There is absolutely no way you can back up that claim.

Sorry, Empire of Dread. It looks like your thread has just been hijacked.
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#56280 - 06/27/11 02:14 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Gather round my fellow Satanist and share all your self incriminating confessions of exemplary heresy and socio-anarchy. Seriously, not anyone sinister, or otherwise intelligent, is going to do that on a forum.

Satanist are not likely to post certain things on here from their past that could lead to new evidence being brought to the attention of the law or other mundane accusations. I guess it's limited to achievements that are socially acceptable and nothing sinister. I could post memetic and dialectical achievements, goals, aims, but we know from other sources that a similar aim is shared by others of a similar cause.

I'd assume that more profoundly interesting accounts will be depicted anonymously in Satanism journals.

There is the desire to spread the message of Satanism through music and art and I can vector that Satanism in black metal obscures itself by it's own false reputation, this is because of the inevitable wave of black metal type bands dealing with Satanism without thinking things through deeply. The Order of Nine Angles is a way of life that one can be inspired by to create extreme black metal or NSBM with a genuine urge to create something feral and violent, Satanic, insofar as defacing ones own societal conditioning, defacing the images imposed by society, a true wave of heresy over Judeo-Christian flaccid and apologetic society and it's Mundane music.

I'm sure overground metal scenesters will object and declare that metal is about peace and feel good vibes or making a stand for pot smoking hippy culture, the usual portrayal that can only be exemplary of Zarathustra's ape. Each to their own devices.
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#56281 - 06/27/11 02:34 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: William Wright

Sorry, Empire of Dread. It looks like your thread has just been hijacked.


Haha, no hard feelings there. Somehow I feel that its quite an interesting twist that Dr. Aquino added to this thread.

While I am a die hard Atheist at the core or as Matthew put it - an evidence bound animal, there is this tiny tiny little doubt in my head, that I sometimes cant get back to sleep. As a matter of fact, since the time I am fully commited to Satanism, my life has changed substantially for the better and while I know that its just the outcome of my own hard work, there are still things that I cant fully explain. Things that I thought would never ever happen to me. But they did, and in quite a strange timeframe I might add.

But then its probably just a funny coincidence.

Cheers
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#56285 - 06/27/11 06:35 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
Dr. Aquino, I’m not sure how this discussion fits into “satanatheistic rationalizing.”


 Originally Posted By: William Wright
There is absolutely no way you can back up that claim.


 Originally Posted By: Empire of Dread
.Haha, no hard feelings there. Somehow I feel that its quite an interesting twist that Dr. Aquino added to this thread.


Mike is coping with logic which is Self-consciousness, and through logic there is effort and pain. Also, he is an ethical man which is the application of logic to the facts of Life. For example, an ethical man (Mike) performs acts of service which are praiseworthy, and he is all the time conscious of those acts. Moreover, he (Mike) may often be thinking of some future reward. Satanism abhors this because his Mind is "tainted".

Life is an art, and like art it should be "forgetting". Life ought to be lived as a bird flies through the air or as a fish swims through water. As soon as there are signs of elaboration, humankind (Mike) is no longer a free being. You (Mike) are not living as you ought to live, you are suffering under the tyranny of circumstances, you are feeling a constraint, and you lose your independence. Ethics aims at preserving your vitality, your native freedom, and the completeness of your being. Mike wants to not be bound by rules, but desires to create his own set of rules. Hence, he is striving for the superlogical.

Mike is where he wants to be.

Set: xeper
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
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[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#56286 - 06/27/11 06:57 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Lamar]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Lamar
A general reply.

We all must work to survive in this world because it takes a job to earn money, with which we buy food and clothing. That's just the way it is.


Yes...i agree with you. Everything you've said, but if someone that lables themself an accomplished Satanist but is registering a counter at your local 7-11 it may not be true...even you have worked your way up the register to manager ...still, most likely not. Thats only because no other one in their right mind would take it.

But if you've created a successful business from the ground up out of nothing...this is considered a sovereign feat. As i had. To put it one way...if your still working for someone else, you are not as "autonomous" as you may think...you are still not "self-governing" in accordance to LHP theory and practices. If you live paycheck by paycheck...you most likely have a lot of work to do to identify yourself as an accomplished Black Magician.

LHP practitioners and Satanists alike can measure life achievements by the "quality of life" they have manifested through the hard-won work of the Initiate. Its the going against the grain, the testing the fences to learn how to learn and using those uncommon tools to achieve goals that are above and beyond others! Do what i had....follow your dream and create something that contributes to your quality of life.

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#56290 - 06/27/11 09:56 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
I think most of us can agree that Satanism, first and foremost, is about forging your own path in life.

I of course agree that within the satanatheist community Satan has no place except as a bauble for personal glamour in an otherwise purely-materialistic existence. The forum, and this thread yet again, bulges with claims that "Satanism is this or that attitude, behavior, or lifestyle", none of which really goes beyond personal whim, enjoyment, and/or excuse. As I read through the previous responses to the thread question, it was once more this confused, inconsistent parade of many people with different lifestyles, none of which having anything to do with Satan, advising a questioner who also begins with some vague, undefined "-ism" without a clear idea what it really means.

i could [and probably should] have just let this go on, since the satanatheist culture is obviously quite content with it. As I noted, the questioner got a good number of materialistic self-reliance responses, and very thoughtful ones. The questioner is happy; the respondents are happy; who am I to disturb such mutual bliss?

 Quote:
I’m glad I never came to you as a Priest around 1971, because if you had told me to swear my mind, body and soul to “Our Lord Satan,” I would’ve laughed in your face. Satan is not my lord; I am my lord.

Persons with that attitude did not come to the Church, nor of course to its Priesthood, in those days; they were perfectly content with MS-R flavored with narcissism. So none of these ever laughed in my face, and those others who came to me sincerely and respectfully in my capacity as Satan's Priest received what they came for, as they truly committed themselves to him. The Satanic Baptism was of course just the shell of that transition, but in print it illustrates it.

 Quote:
By the way, how do you know that it always came to pass that those who kept their oath received all that they desired and deserved? There is absolutely no way you can back up that claim.

I observed with intense interest the metamorphoses of Satanists, each of which was necessarily different and individualistic, but each bearing the signature of his or her becoming a Being of Satan. And not only would I never "back up" such transformations to the profane; I would consider it a violation of my office to discuss it thus.

 Quote:
Sorry, Empire of Dread. It looks like your thread has just been hijacked.

Obviously it has not been hijacked at all, since the MS-R handshaking all around can keep right on.

Indeed the 1966-75 alternative no longer exists [Setian initiation is an entirely more complex and subtle concept]. Otherwise, if the Church still existed and I continued today in its Priesthood, anyone here with a pure heart and unreserved commitment would be able to undergo that Baptism and experience its consequences: which, I might add, included not just the benefits of adhering to it, but the results of falling away from it.

Where this thread is concerned, I will just add this: It is irrelevant to speak of Satanism as a tool for mundane success. The Satanist undergoes personal change, and everything he or she is/does thereafter is inherently different, and indeed not even consciously so. Anton LaVey was the most visible and conspicuous example of this insofar as he was what he was and did what he did in his High Priestly office; he didn't "go out and try to do" Satanism; he radiated it. If you can understand this distinction, you may be able to understand why discussions about "using Satanism to get or do this or that" are so, like, youknowwhatI'msayin', nowhere.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56292 - 06/27/11 10:40 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
@ mr. Aquino... i agree that we cant go out and "do Satanism" but you must admit that the Paths we incorporate that identify ourselves as LHP practitioners has aided us, or at least myself, in improving our quality of life via Will and advanced magical practices.

I know i would still have more worries and obstacles in life if i never picked up Antons Work 20 years ago, which led to countless more. And i say mundane worries, yes, like money, addiction, relationships...ect..ect. I believe whole hartedly that i dont have those obstacles and credit myself for the strict adherences to the Ethic, conscious intent and practices that are incorporated on the Left.

Do you disagree that treading this path effects the mundane? You say in your last paragraph that its irrelevant to speak of Satanism as a tool for mundane success, but after all...we are working from the mundane (physical plane of existence). Im not sure i understand your point. Please elaborate?

True Anton may have "radiated" Satanism, it would seem this way because he arrived at the right time... 10 years prior or later, the difference would be HUGE.

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#56293 - 06/28/11 12:23 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
As I read through the previous responses to the thread question, it was once more this confused, inconsistent parade of many people with different lifestyles, none of which having anything to do with Satan, advising a questioner who also begins with some vague, undefined "-ism" without a clear idea what it really means.


Satan quite clearly encourages ideological freedom, anti-societal rebellion, and libertine decadence... but how the individual goes from there is understandably varied and personal. Deliberate transgression is a useful Satanic exercise, but this alone doesn't give an individual "the horns". I'll clarify this at the end.

 Quote:
Otherwise, if the Church still existed and I continued today in its Priesthood, anyone here with a pure heart and unreserved commitment would be able to undergo that Baptism and experience its consequences:


Satanism is a primarily solitary path, both presently and historically. Satan beckons from the dark corners of our minds; not from steeples and crowded chapels. Covens, Churches, and Temples are all understood to be finite, short-lived phenomena. For this reason, rites such as the traditional (some might say stereotypical) "Blood Pact" are more useful for initiatory purposes because they create an intra-personal connection that is not so tainted by the external forms of a short-lived group.

(This solidifies an individual's personal dedication by freeing his bonds from the exoteric, which is enormously helpful in preventing the Satanist from declaring a new aeon and subsequently devising some overly complex vehicle for the LHP every time they get disillusioned with their current group.)

 Quote:
i could [and probably should] have just let this go on, since the satanatheist culture is obviously quite content with it


Atheism itself is a form that can be used by the individual, but the would-be Satanist who constantly goes at great pains to apologetically explain that his philosophy is "just Atheism and rational self-interest" has let this form get the better of him.

The same can be said of Theists who cannot see past the stumbling blocks of theology or supernaturalism. A person can love and worship Satan as fervently as a Christian adores Christ-- and they most certainly earn the label of "Satanist" by the conventional definition-- but they cannot be called "Sinister" in the occult sense of the term, which demands that the initiate realizes his independence from all external deities.

It's all a matter of seeing the forest for the trees. Satanism is a part. A component. You can worship it, or you can pick it up and use it... or some combination of the two.

 Quote:
he didn't "go out and try to do" Satanism; he radiated it. If you can understand this distinction, you may be able to understand why discussions about "using satanism to get or do this or that" are so, like, youknowwhatI'msayin', nowhere.


Is man saved his works or by faith alone? An old question.

Sola Fide. Solo Satana.


Edited by The Zebu (06/28/11 12:31 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#56299 - 06/28/11 12:10 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
Let me quote you, Dr. Aquino, so there is no misunderstanding:

“You will swear your body, mind, and soul to Our Lord Satan in his Rite of Baptism; and thereafter, as long as you remain true to your Oath, you shall receive all that you desire and deserve." As, of course, it always came to pass.

All that you desire? Really? What if you desire to flap your arms and fly? What if you desire to physically become a child again or raise your parents from the dead? Can’t you realize how ridiculous that statement is? It reminds me of something I saw in front of a church recently. The sign said, “With faith all things are possible.” This is clearly untrue, just as your claim is clearly untrue.

The reason you don’t back up your claim isn't because I am “profane” or because you would consider it a violation of your office. The reason you don’t back up your claim is because you can’t.

You say that Satanists undergo personal changes, which is true. However, personal changes are hardly limited to those who fit your definition of a Satanist. I would argue that everyone goes through personal changes in life, some profound and others less so. Satanists simply acknowledge that they (not God or Satan/Set or any other external entity) are the driving force behind these changes, which gives them greater control over these changes.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56300 - 06/28/11 12:58 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: William Wright


“You will swear your body, mind, and soul to Our Lord Satan in his Rite of Baptism; and thereafter, as long as you remain true to your Oath, you shall receive all that you desire and deserve." As, of course, it always came to pass.

All that you desire? Really? What if you desire to flap your arms and fly? What if you desire to physically become a child again or raise your parents from the dead?


This kind of pronouncement in ritualistic context is purposely inserted and serves a very valid purpose. It's the same thing that Christians use in their prayers when they say, "If it is God's Will." Of course, the Christians will tell you that if you don't get your desire, "It simply wasn't God's Will." In the theistic vernacular of the "LHP," it can be translated to..."You may have desired, but perhaps you didn't deserve."

So in his statement, "As of course, it always came to pass," he's making a correct and honest statement. Simply put, either they did or didn't get their desires. The devil is in the details.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56301 - 06/28/11 02:05 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Not to mention that in these cases, we easily attribute each "benefit" we get to that great guy delivering it, as if he alone decided we deserve it and it makes us feel great being judged as such, but a car crash costing us an arm and a leg, seems to be interpreted differently.

If you deserve a cookie, you might deserve a spanking too.

All in all, these things mean nothing but are given meaning.

D.

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#56302 - 06/28/11 03:05 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
Let me quote you, Dr. Aquino, so there is no misunderstanding:

“You will swear your body, mind, and soul to Our Lord Satan in his Rite of Baptism; and thereafter, as long as you remain true to your Oath, you shall receive all that you desire and deserve." As, of course, it always came to pass.

All that you desire? Really? What if you desire to flap your arms and fly? What if you desire to physically become a child again or raise your parents from the dead? Can’t you realize how ridiculous that statement is?



C'mon... your statement is also ridiculas William. Its clear that Aquino is speaking in Ritual context thats aimed to heighten the senses and motivation of the Initiate during Ceremony. You dont seem to get the context its used in.

However i do not disagree with you concerning exacts. No body is sprouting wings in the subjective universe...but how about the objective?

But what you must understand, and im sure you do because you are very attuned (after reviewing your prior threads and replies) that this "command" is an affirmation to effect tbe objective universe to anchor results in the subjective.

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#56303 - 06/28/11 03:36 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Correct me if I am missing something here, but there is only the will to power and all that something does is it's will to power. The disguised forms of the will to power and the more direct. Everything is power play. What is good about this is that peoples behaviour becomes transparent, and without the unnecessary, linear, process of morality as anything but something to be mechanised, there is no need to formalise things in order to retaliate by ones own will to power.

For example: A Mundane tries to make you feel guilty through his morality, this is a disguised form of the will to power, imposing a mild fear of socio-anarchy and nothing more, it is simple fear of uncertainty. I'm not sure as it's hard to remember, but what is important is that all the Mundanes say and do is not to be trusted, they believe their own lies, justifications, and the reality of this is invincible ignorance.

They will act surprised and shocked claiming that you are attacking them excessively for no reason simply because they believe themselves to be disguised and at a safe distance to impose on you without you noticing.

People are always attempting to inflict their will upon eachother. Every action toward another stems from a desire to bring that person under power. Whether a person is giving, proving to be in love with someone, or physically harming someone.

The only thing I respect is power and the only thing I despise is a much to vulgar display of power.

Wolves baring teeth creates equilibrium, and such is not peace, but respect.

So to both summarise and ask: Is there is no achievement to be had in the world except to learn how we respond to anticipations of socio-anarchy and how adept we are at expressing the will to power, in both direct and disguised forms, to mechanise abstract causal forms?
_________________________


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#56305 - 06/28/11 05:15 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage
@ mr. Aquino... i agree that we cant go out and "do Satanism" but you must admit that the Paths we incorporate that identify ourselves as LHP practitioners has aided us, or at least myself, in improving our quality of life via Will and advanced magical practices.

As I have detailed previously, the Satanic Bible was a hastily-thrown-together mishmash of different, unrelated documents: Redbeard, Dee, various Church mimeographed handouts ("Lucifer") and basic do-it-yourself ritual instructions. It was simply Peter Mayer of Avon's idea to surfboard a quick paperback on the 1968 publicity-wave of the Church of Satan.

The basic theme of the handouts was "You're being screwed and will continue to be unless you wake up, realize it, and take control of your own future." Here we are still in MS-R territory, and this is where most post-1975 devotees of the SB stop. There is nothing wrong with this, of course. It's what you see when the SB is brought up in the 600C, and it is, of course, good advice. Anton just wrote it simpler and rawer than, say, Peter Ouspensky in his Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution or William Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life.

So the question is: Where does Satan come into any of this? To satanatheists the answer is easy: He's just a symbol, a totem of awakened/undeceived savvy man. Anything beyond this, e.g. magical/metaphysical, is not only unnecessary but actually humiliating and self-abasing, because it seems to move back into the realm of "religion as a people-control device" as per the world's conventional slave-religions.

It is also essential to Atheism to deny anything beyond the material. It is only secure in its functionality if it rules out any outside factors or influences. It is Dana Scully at the beginning of The X-Files. For this reason one finds far more resistance to Satan in the 600C than, amusingly, among non-"Satanists". If there is anything that the 600C and Peter Gilmore's "Church of Satan" firmly agree on, it is that Satan does not exist. This is, I suspect, unique among the world's "-isms".

Yet within the original 1966-75 Church, we discovered that Satan was very real indeed, but in a remarkable way unique to this religion. He was a source which, when accessed, responded by activating and energizing something dormant within but intrinsic to each conscious being who recognized and invoked him. The result of this was a transformation of individual consciousness to something larger and more potent than that. [It indeed may be that the profane legend, and fear, of "dæmonic possession" is a pale reflection of this phenomenon.] You remain yourself, but become something more too. This is both what I myself experienced and what I saw in others who became authentic Satanists. We became apes picking up bones, and thereafter our entire conscious existence was never the same again.

Again where the original question of this thread is concerned, being such a Satanist is not by any means a ticket to social, financial, etc. success. Or happiness. The more you see with ruthless clarity [or "undefiled wisdom" if you like], the more complex, the greyer, the more ripple-effective everything becomes. Not to mention that, like Dr. Morbius, you simultaneously awaken the Dark Side of your own consciousness, your very own "monster from the id", which can destroy you just as inexorably as it did him [or Anton LaVey].

Indeed it is for these considerations that I have never recommended that anyone seek to become a Satanist [or since 1975 a Setian]. It is a consuming, obsessing, raging, ecstatic, and terrifying experience; and one which is not reversible if later regretted. But some individuals became Satanists then, or Setians now, not because of the Church then, or the Temple now, but because of something within themselves. The Church then, and the Temple now, merely identifies this phenomenon and seeks to encourage and enhance an intelligent, ethical unfolding manifestation of it.

Otherwise, continue on the MS-R path wisely recommended by satanatheists here, and you will indeed maximize your chances both for worldly prosperity and gratification therefrom.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56307 - 06/28/11 05:54 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
MAA, my problem with your posts is that they are almost entirely filled with hokum devoid of any real meaning. You assign these 'mystical' axioms of your own devising, based on not a shred of rationality then attempt to use them as rational objections to a philosophy that compared to the wash you apply to the hog, is head and shoulders better. (Albeit still stopping so short of the goal posts in most cases one wonders whether they're even playing the right game).

 Quote:

As I have detailed previously, the Satanic Bible was a hastily-thrown-together mishmash of different, unrelated documents: Redbeard, Dee, various Church mimeographed handouts ("Lucifer") and basic do-it-yourself ritual instructions. It was simply Peter Mayer of Avon's idea to surfboard a quick paperback on the 1968 publicity-wave of the Church of Satan.


Certainly - so let me get this straight - your strung together hogwash based on mistranslation of Egyptian as a language is clearly better right? After all that's hung together from a collection of irrelevant and discredited research and meaningless speculation from your own mind.

Presumably 'Set' if such an 'entity' exists on anything other than the causal plane you hang the abstraction to - would pre and post date Egyptian culture. Surely then you are just hanging these archaic (and poorly understood by you) terms to a mythological figure in an effort to provide some sense of lineage to what is ultimately a 'current' or an 'aspect' of the self. This makes your 'mystical ascriptions' no better than any other religion as they are based on nothing more than a subjective impression of something acausal within a dimensionless mindspace rather than anything 'real'. Indeed if your philosophy had any merit presumably it would stand on its own two feet rather than requiring constant support from long dead memes, badly misunderstood due to poor knowledge of Egyptian. Why resort to 'Satan' and then 'Set' at all? Because it revealed itself to you as an Egyptian Diety. How convenient. How irrelevant.

 Quote:

It is also essential to Atheism to deny anything beyond the material. It is only secure in its functionality if it rules out any outside factors or influences. It is Dana Scully at the beginning of The X-Files. For this reason one finds far more resistance to Satan in the 600C than, amusingly, among non-"Satanists".


This is just dualist hogwash. You're throwing up this 'strawman' of what a 'Satanatheist' is based on what you want the people that adhere to it to be. You want people to define themselves by what they don't believe, rather than what they do.

Satan, as an 'entity', an 'archetype' (gah) a 'current' of the mind, an 'acausal entity', or a 'mystical being' is really irrelevant to the process of living the LHP.

Whether the force exists within or without is a matter of perspective the ultimate answer to which can never be 'known' so what it comes down to is what has a meaningful impact on the way one lives.

Engaging in endless mental masturbation about what 'it' is, is pointless as it does nothing more than attempt to box something up in a useful causal abstraction to allow one to start a cult. Or is 'belief' so important to the process of gnosis? Doesn't that smell a little Christian to you?

The experience of that acausal entity is what is at heart and one's 'theism' or otherwise does not preclude experience, or gnosis.

You want your form to be 'the form' and are using your strawman to support that, and only the blind would miss it. When contemplating that entity, whether it is objectively real or not matters little to the process of living - except oddly to theists where it is always their way is the best way, because they call it by a name they can't justify rationally rather than one they can. Their way is the best way because they 'believe' something irrational where others don't require belief at all. If that's rational to you, have at it, just don't act like others failing to adhere to that belief are somehow deficient, when in fact its 2 ways of looking at the same object when such object whether externally extant or not doesn't change however one sees it.

 Quote:
we discovered that Satan was very real indeed, but in a remarkable way unique to this religion. He was a source which, when accessed, responded by activating and energizing something dormant within but intrinsic to each conscious being who recognized and invoked him.


None of which requires a belief in anything metaphysical, unless you are so utterly Magian that one requires 'belief' in something for progress. If so, how thoroughly Christian of you. Many 'atheistic' Satanists regard Satan as real, just not in a sense your modernist philosophy will accept. That's your loss, don't tarnish them with that brush.

 Quote:
The Church then, and the Temple now, merely identifies this phenomenon and seeks to encourage and enhance an intelligent, ethical unfolding manifestation of it.


No, your manifestation of it requires a dressing of needless hokum and causal abstractions all of which distract an adherent from -doing-.

If you believe that performing ritual and stomping around does more than stroke yourself into a frenzy then have fun with that, but don't sell it like it's the Way. It's just your Way, and the Way of those so gullable as to swallow your view wholesale when your entire post could be set with the prefix "I think" or "I believe" and so doesn't represent a rational counterpoint to anything.

MF.


Edited by MindFux (06/28/11 06:05 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification, spelling, typos and other evidence of a long assed day

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#56308 - 06/28/11 06:23 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage


But if you've created a successful business from the ground up out of nothing...this is considered a sovereign feat. As i had. To put it one way...if your still working for someone else, you are not as "autonomous" as you may think...you are still not "self-governing" in accordance to LHP theory and practices. If you live paycheck by paycheck...you most likely have a lot of work to do to identify yourself as an accomplished Black Magician.

LHP practitioners and Satanists alike can measure life achievements by the "quality of life" they have manifested through the hard-won work of the Initiate. Its the going against the grain, the testing the fences to learn how to learn and using those uncommon tools to achieve goals that are above and beyond others! Do what i had....follow your dream and create something that contributes to your quality of life.


I disagree that a Satanist can only be called "successful" if he has built a buisness from the ground up. This is because not every Satanist wants to own a personal buisness. I do not. I do agree however that it is more Satanic to be successful in one's own personal interests to the point that one begins to thrive without the system. But more often than not it is more realistic to have a job to be able to pursue personal interests. Keep in mind though that personal interests, like people, are vast and varry in appearance. Perhaps one enjoys being a manager at a local 7/11. I don't see anything wrong with being a successful manager if it gets things done in one's life.

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#56310 - 06/28/11 07:07 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
Not sure whether I should post it here, but if you're interested in connection between real world achievements and Satanism, I suggest you read this. Thanks to Dr. Aquino for mentioning it in his ebook.
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#56311 - 06/28/11 07:44 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: MindFux]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MindFux
MAA, my problem with your posts is that they are almost entirely filled with hokum devoid of any real meaning ...

Etc., which along with Mr. Wright illustrates the fear and antagonism satanatheists have for authentic Satanism better than anything I could say.

My response to you is the same as to him: Don't upset yourself about it, because you are clearly unsuited for it. Continue with your MS-R, label yourself however you wish (including "Satanist"), and enjoy life. There, wasn't that easy and painless?
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56313 - 06/28/11 09:06 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
It's the same thing that Christians use in their prayers when they say, "If it is God's Will." Of course, the Christians will tell you that if you don't get your desire, "It simply wasn't God's Will." In the theistic vernacular of the "LHP," it can be translated to..."You may have desired, but perhaps you didn't deserve."

An interesting point, but in actuality Christianity is fundamentally different from Satanism in this respect.

Christianity is based on the principle of human sin or imperfection which can only be corrected through divine intervention, e.g. Grace. The "sin" is that of separate consciousness and its expressed will; and since these are inherent in humanity, there is nothing a human can do to suppress, repress, or eliminate them - despite many attempts, ranging from prayer and monastic meditation to flagellation and torture/execution. Even in a state of "tentative Grace" (acceptance of Christ), such a human is all the more aware of his inherent deviation from what that Grace signifies (in theory, a return to "pure innocence" - as in pre-apple Eden). Thus the Christian must accept all that happens to him as "God's will", and of course the unpleasant things as no more than is deserved by his sin [and only, perhaps, something less because of Christ's intervention = Grace].

Satanists begin their awakening by first rejecting any notion of original/birthright "guilt" or "sin". For many this is a natural state of being; for others, indoctrinated in the slave religions, a "red pill" [or laxative] is necessary, and that is what the Black Mass is all about.

Whereupon the individual approaches the transformation of Satanic Baptism [or, later, Setian initiation] as a completely discretionary conscious entity. There is no enticement; there is no threat. Rather there is, as James Thomson described in in The City of Dreadful Night, only "Necessity Supreme": the Black Flame of the awakened Self, demanding its perfection and completion.

Following this transformation, the Satanist is not a passive, accepting, fate-embracing slave like the Christian. Indeed the Objective Universe is just as inert and indifferent to him now as it was before. What is different is not it, nor the MS-R tools which he still can use upon it, but rather his sense of what he is: no longer an animal but a god: Nietzsche's "horizon builder", de Maupassant's Horla, 2001's Star Child. His entire orientation changes from utility to creativity. Such Satanists/Setians standards and measurements of this have only incidental relationships to ordinary human interests.

 Quote:
So in his statement, "As of course, it always came to pass," he's making a correct and honest statement. Simply put, either they did or didn't get their desires. The devil is in the details.

Once again you are correct, but not for the apparent reason (mere rationalization). In the case of Satanic baptism/initiation, we were playing with an unknown fire no less than Ayesha with the Fire of Kôr. We saw its effects, or more accurately the beginning of them; but we did not understand why this should be, other than that it was catalyzed by commitment to Satan. In 1975 we finally understood, or, more accurately, began the long road to that Understanding.

Because of this transformation-absent-understanding in the Church, the change in individuals was apparent, but not its consequences. Satanists simply thought, spoke, and acted differently. Sometimes this worked to their personal/social benefit, othertimes not. It was very much the parable of the sighted man in H.G. Wells' The Country of the Blind. Just how dangerous this could be we did not fully appreciate until the 1980s.

_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56314 - 06/28/11 10:36 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: MindFux]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



"Certainly - so let me get this straight - your strung together hogwash based on mistranslation of Egyptian as a language is clearly better right? After all that's hung together from a collection of irrelevant and discredited research and meaningless speculation from your own mind." M.F 600C

This has been one of the more interesting criticism's of Setian philosophy and I think it was addressed in another thread here.

There is an attempt to discredit the Word of Set by referring to the human scholarship of ancient Egypt and ancient Egyptian language.

Maybe this is a valid argument, but I would tend to argue (from my non-Setian point of view) that The Book of Coming Forth by Night is the Word of Set as perceived or apprehended by a man living in the United States in 1975.

I imagine that for an initiated Priest of Set this Word of Set is primary and is what it purports to be: the Word of Set and in fact the Word and the perception or apprehension of it from 1975 lies at the heart of the Modern or reconsecrated Temple of Set and is the genuine article. It is crucial for the understanding of this reconsecrated Temple.

It's not necesarily that the argument about the Egyptian language and mistranslation is wrong from a certain point of view; its just that this scholarship has been superceded or rather bears a relevance only to ancient Egypt and the study of ancient Egypt, as far as I can see, from a Setian point of view.

Why can't this Word be read in an evolutionary way? Words do change over time and our perception of them changes as well.

This will come across as a dissatisfying sort of response by some members. I would suggest though that to a Priest of Set it is an important point. The Word of Set as articulated by a man in 1975 as The Book of Coming Forth by Night seems to involve the evolution of meaning and the re-apprehension of the Neter?

Apart from saying this I am always rather fascianted by the image from 2001 of the monolith and of those apes who begin to recognise meaningless objects in the world as tools to be used. The consciousness underlying this change of perception is interesting to me and of course the consequences.

An important thread, this one.

Also don't be under the impression that worship has something to do with this, it does not from what I see. The relationship between the Neter and its manifestations and or its particular instances is more subtle and not worship based I think.


Edited by MatthewJ1 (06/28/11 10:38 PM)

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#56316 - 06/28/11 11:21 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Why can't this Word be read in an evolutionary way? Words do change over time and our perception of them changes as well.


Nothing can be more illogical and contrary to common sense than the word: "xeper". The critic will be inclined to call it absurd, confusing and beyond the ken of ordinary reasoning. But, "xeper" is inflexible and protests that the so-called common sense way of looking at "xeper" is not final, and the reason you cannot attain a thoroughgoing comprehension of "xeper" is due to your unreasonable adherence to an interpretation of things.

If you really want to get to the bottom of "xeper", you must abandon your syllogisms, you must acquire a new way of observation whereby you can escape the tyranny of circumstances, and the one-sidedness of mere words.

Seb
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#56317 - 06/28/11 11:44 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Well, if you don't like "Xeper", how about "chocolate"?
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56324 - 06/29/11 09:41 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
Mister Cage, you are correct that Dr. Aquino, with regard to the Rite of Baptism, was speaking in a ritual context, which often contains fictional elements meant to heighten the senses and motivation of the initiate during the ceremony. I’m just not sure Aquino is down with the fictional idea. I take it (and please correct me if I’m wrong, Dr. Aquino) that he believes everything he refers to in his rituals is nonfictional, just like his Set is nonfictional. When he speaks of swearing mind, body and soul to “Our Lord Satan,” that is exactly what he means.

Upon further reflection, it is doubtful I would’ve laughed in Aquino’s face. Doing so would not fit my personality. (I have two jobs, both in customer service. If I laughed at everyone who got under my skin, I would soon find myself unemployed.) I would’ve probably asked for clarification. Upon hearing that Aquino believed in a literal Satan who I should address as my lord, I hope I would have the nerve to walk away from Aquino and the Church he represented.

Fortunately in this day and age, Satanists have a variety of social networks to plug into. I’m glad I have the 600 Club as a resource, because most of the members here seem to “get it” (meaning, of course, that I generally agree with their way of looking at things).

MindFux, thank you for your post. You said what I wanted to say so much better than I could’ve said it.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56327 - 06/29/11 10:14 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:

There is an attempt to discredit the Word of Set by referring to the human scholarship of ancient Egypt and ancient Egyptian language.

Maybe this is a valid argument, but I would tend to argue (from my non-Setian point of view) that The Book of Coming Forth by Night is the Word of Set as perceived or apprehended by a man living in the United States in 1975.


The only reason this discourse arises in the first place is that it is the basis for the founding tenets of the ToS. Their misapprehension of basic Egyptian used to justify a splinter group from the CoS which is resultant from 'butthurt', retrospectively justified by some 'metaphysical' consideration.

If you want to believe one man's word based on nothing more than things that he has simply made up as he went along with no actual basis beyond that (and his abuse of discredited and out of date Egyptian concepts), then that is absolutely your prerogative, but the rest of your post was just waxing lyrical on what you believe. The fact is, there's nothing evolutionary going on here. He hung a mythos to something that is as simple as this at heart "I believe that a God speaks to me through my brain based on nothing more than my subjective impression and belief that is going on. Who's with me?" If that's your slice of cake, have fun with that, but stay the hell away from Churches or you'll be next at the baptism pit.

 Quote:

Why can't this Word be read in an evolutionary way? Words do change over time and our perception of them changes as well.


It can, but making up a new meaning for a word because it suits your cult isn't a natural 'evolution of the word'. It's making shit up because it suits a cult. You see that subtle difference?

 Quote:

Etc., which along with Mr. Wright illustrates the fear and antagonism satanatheists have for authentic Satanism better than anything I could say.


Ah the discrimination against the 'authentic' Satanist. Let me get this straight, an authentic 'Satanist' to you is someone who makes an irrational leap to the objective existence of a deity justified by nothing more than subjective experience couched in a completely made up mythos of their own devising, who then acts like those who don't adhere to it are somehow deficient, because that belief in your made up nonsense is somehow relevant to self discovery. That's exactly the same line of shit that Christians have fed the world for years. Even if your metaphysical underpinnings were correct, they remain 'unknowable' and hence irrelevant to anything meaningful. You making a point of distinction around belief disguised as philosophy speaks to how disingenuous and shit riddled your underlying concepts are. There is simply no intellectual honesty in such a position.

You're not suffering discrimination here MAA because you are a theist, or because it's a crusade against theism. You are making irrational, baseless claims based on events, linguistic concepts and mythology that you have entirely, and entirely dishonestly made up (while giving them a sheen of authenticity by hoping that no one actually reads a book on the subject of Egyptology).

Satanists, due to their very character will point out such irrational drivel. That's not discrimination, that's not 'hatred' that's just rational deconstruction of nonsense.

I can see why you don't like it, because you are a peddler of nonsense, but as long as you keep peddling it here in a forum, then I'll point out the logical incongruities wherever I see them. Just like when any other individual does the same.

Face it MAA, you don't even know what Xeper means, you just invented a new meaning for the word but harp back to its ancient Egyptian roots as justification for your childish little "I'm different" grab. It's embarrassing and would never have worked had you not hung from LaVey's coat tails in the first instance.

Your leap to 'theism' is based on nothing more than crap you've made up. Just because you've sold it to the gullible doesn't lend it any rational credibility, and until you can provide it with some, pucker up because we'll kiss often. ;\)

MF.



Edited by MindFux (06/29/11 10:20 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarification + corrections

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#56332 - 06/29/11 12:17 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
I take it (and please correct me if I’m wrong, Dr. Aquino) that he believes everything he refers to in his rituals is nonfictional, just like his Set is nonfictional. When he speaks of swearing mind, body and soul to “Our Lord Satan,” that is exactly what he means.

Quite correct. And just incidentally, the formal title "Our Lord Satan" was initiated and used by Anton LaVey, as in the initiatory degree certificates on pages #163 & #298 of The Church of Satan. It was a customary and expected honorific within the Church in formal circumstances, though of course not conversationally.

 Quote:
Upon further reflection, it is doubtful I would’ve laughed in Aquino’s face. Doing so would not fit my personality. (I have two jobs, both in customer service. If I laughed at everyone who got under my skin, I would soon find myself unemployed.) I would’ve probably asked for clarification. Upon hearing that Aquino believed in a literal Satan who I should address as my lord, I hope I would have the nerve to walk away from Aquino and the Church he represented.

Why should that have required any nerve? I discussed Satan, Satanism, and the Church of Satan with thousands of questioners, many of whom didn't find it their cup of tea. Didn't bother me/didn't bother them. [Well a few Christian fundamentalists, visiting Jehovah's Witnesses, and one Hare Krishna who buttonholed me one day at LAX went a bit apeshit, but so what?]

 Quote:
Fortunately in this day and age, Satanists have a variety of social networks to plug into. I’m glad I have the 600 Club as a resource, because most of the members here seem to “get it” (meaning, of course, that I generally agree with their way of looking at things).

I agree with you that the 600C is a great resource consisting of bright people with carefully & sincerely thought-out viewpoints. There are a few jerks too, but again so what?
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56333 - 06/29/11 12:44 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: MindFux]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MindFux
The only reason this discourse arises in the first place is that it is the basis for the founding tenets of the ToS. Their misapprehension of basic Egyptian used to justify a splinter group from the CoS which is resultant from 'butthurt', retrospectively justified by some 'metaphysical' consideration ...

Now I recall: You're the person who went on that boorish rant about Egyptian language and Xeper during a discussion of Don Webb's writings. Evidently neither your intelligence nor your manners have improved since then, so to "ignore" you go.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56334 - 06/29/11 01:29 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: assault_ninja]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: assault_ninja
Not sure whether I should post it here, but if you're interested in connection between real world achievements and Satanism, I suggest you read this. Thanks to Dr. Aquino for mentioning it in his ebook.

Oh, yes, Jim Moody. Let's elaborate a bit:

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A., The Church of Satan
Randall Alfred may have been the first academician to study the Church of Satan, but he was certainly not the last. During the following years there ensued a veritable parade of scholars interested in analyzing the institution for academic publications. Among them were James Moody, a Lecturer in Anthropology at Queens College, Northern Ireland, and Marcello Truzzi, Professor and Chairman of the Sociology Department of Eastern Michigan University.

Moody accepted the Satanic Priesthood, participated enthusiastically in rituals at 6114, and then faded from active involvement with his return to Ireland in about 1970. In his published article concerning his Church participation, he stopped short of an unqualified endorsement, but away from the eyes of colleagues he was comfortably enthusiastic. In October of 1973 he commented to the LaVeys that he perceived Anton’s genius to lie in his commitment to intellectual freedom above and beyond all accepted philosophies. Moody remained, he said, the “loyalest of Anton’s disciples”. His passion appeared to be reserved for Anton and Diane as individuals, however, and did not extend to personal participation in the national or international programs of the Church.

Jim was a nice guy who served as one of my assistant Priests at the first full-blown Missa Solemnis ("Black Mass") conducted at 6114 California Street in 1970. The MS was exceedingly graphic, indeed so much so that I officiated only after obtaining Anton's OK to dial my role down from XXX to PG-13. But it certainly didn't bother Jim [or Larry Green, my other assistant]. Guess I'm just a prude ...

Anyway, behind closed doors at 6114 Jim fell all over himself being dutiful, respectful, and considerate of other members. That's why it was a bit of a surprise to see him prostitute his experience and Priesthood, with careful "personal dissociation" for academic publication.

We used to get "academic researchers" all the time, both in San Francisco and around the country. If they were open and straightforward, fine. The two-faced ones got the bum's rush when exposed.

As for some of the "odd" people who joined the Church in its early SF days, the ones I met were perfectly pleasant and polite. If, as in Satanis, some of them let their fetish hair down in discussion or a thematic ritual, it was invariably in appropriate context and decorum. Anton would not have permitted it any other way, nor allowed any guest in his home to be insulted or humiliated.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56335 - 06/29/11 02:30 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:
Now I recall: You're the person who went on that boorish rant about Egyptian language and Xeper during a discussion of Don Webb's writings. Evidently neither your intelligence nor your manners have improved since then, so to "ignore" you go.


You can ignore me all you want MAA, I'm not aiming to convince you that you're a sham, fraud and charlatan with no knowledge of ancient Egyptian. You already -know- that. My posts are to present a reasonable counterpoint to the nonsense you are attempting to wholesale on this forum in the brief moments you raise your head to troll for membership for your cult.

Don't get all wounded because the entire world of Egyptology is currently aligned on your definition of Xeper being made up bullshit. Neither am I concerned about your lack of rejoinder to the many perfectly reasonable points made by me (and others for that matter) pertaining to your irrational, groundless leap of faith, because you know as well as I, that there is no rejoinder you can make.

Your actions merely reveal to any and all that are interested that in the face of what your 'faith' is ("I believe in a God because I want to subjectively, but I call it Set") you don't have a leg to stand on.

Thanks for the confirmation.

MF.


Edited by MindFux (06/29/11 02:32 PM)
Edit Reason: Corrections

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#56336 - 06/29/11 04:13 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
No serious offense is intended by the following observations, I'm just being whimsically caustic. That said...

Regarding LaVey's depiction of Satan, he referred to the devil in a rather theistic fashion, speaking of "Our Lord Satan", and "Satanic Theology"-- the latter one always elicits a laugh or two from me, since the CoS is void of anything resembling real theology or mythos. I can only conclude these words were used with a sort of half-seriousness that was not elaborated any further due to the lack of occult(nik) sophistication on the CoS's part.

Moving on to Aquino, MF's rather brusque critique does pose some pressing questions regarding the practical integrity of Setianism. The pseudo-theistic robes with which the ToS garlands itself have always seemed rather out-of-place and unnecessary, and highlights that Aquino's "usage" of Set can be seen as a misappropriation of obscure, archaic symbolism pulled out-of-context to bolster the image of what would otherwise be just another uninteresting magical lodge. The "Book of Coming Forth by Night" strikes me as merely a string of petty complaints about CoS-related drama dressed up as a mystic gospel, and certainly not anything that could have come from an ageless God of Darkness who breathed chaos and bloodshed (and was almost certainly never venerated by anyone for nearly two millenia), and much less a life-changing revelation. News flash, Mike, we all spit out bombastic "channeled texts" at some point in our occult careers-- people like you and Crowley are the only ones that don't end up throwing them away with all your other half-baked juvenilia.

To the man's credit, though, I've never seen him "troll" for membership on this forum. I also don't want this thread to turn into a "LET'S ALL BUTTFUCK AQUINO!" dogpile.

That said, I'll leave you with that image to simmer in your imaginations.


Edited by The Zebu (06/29/11 04:23 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#56341 - 06/29/11 09:59 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: The Zebu]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
No serious offense is intended by the following observations, I'm just being whimsically caustic. That said...

I never take offense from those incapable of giving it competently.

 Quote:
Regarding LaVey's depiction of Satan, he referred to the devil in a rather theistic fashion, speaking of "Our Lord Satan", and "Satanic Theology"-- the latter one always elicits a laugh or two from me, since the CoS is void of anything resembling real theology or mythos. I can only conclude these words were used with a sort of half-seriousness that was not elaborated any further due to the lack of occult(nik) sophistication on the CoS's part.

Anton's personal beliefs, as well as his intentional tailoring of their communication to different audiences, have been previously discussed at some length in the 600C [and The Church of Satan], and I shouldn't think need yet another resurrection.

 Quote:
Moving on to Aquino, MF's rather brusque critique does pose some pressing questions regarding the practical integrity of Setianism. The pseudo-theistic robes with which the ToS garlands itself have always seemed rather out-of-place and unnecessary, and highlights that Aquino's "usage" of Set can be seen as a misappropriation of obscure, archaic symbolism pulled out-of-context to bolster the image of what would otherwise be just another uninteresting magical lodge. The "Book of Coming Forth by Night" strikes me as merely a string of petty complaints about CoS-related drama dressed up as a mystic gospel, and certainly not anything that could have come from an ageless God of Darkness who breathed chaos and bloodshed (and was almost certainly never venerated by anyone for nearly two millenia), and much less a life-changing revelation. News flash, Mike, we all spit out bombastic "channeled texts" at some point in our occult careers-- people like you and Crowley are the only ones that don't end up throwing them away with all your other half-baked juvenilia.

Again, having discussed the North Solstice X Working at some length in The Temple of Set and answered thoughtful, courteous questions from others in previous threads here, I see no need to dignify this. Your opinions are assuredly your prerogative, and if the above expression of them represents and satisfies you, far be it from me to cast pearls.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56342 - 06/29/11 10:09 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: MindFux]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Thanks for your reply M.F.

I have some last thoughts which I would like to share and would be interested in your comments on.

What is the difference between the Temple of Set and its use and understanding of Set and the Word of Set, and the Order of the Nine Angles and its use and understanding of Satan and the notion of Dark Gods etc?

Doesn’t this choice and use of words by the ONA represent the investment of this set of words with a meaning deliberately chosen by the ONA? Doesn’t this necessarily mean that the word/words in question have evolved in some sense?

And this word Satan, what is its history and its meaning over time? Doesn’t the appropriation and use of the word Satan by the Christian cult result in an evolution of this words meaning in some sense?

Is a contemporary Satanist obliged, or condemned, to solely regard Satan and its meaning from the point of view of the Christian’s, or as articulated years before the Christian’s arrival? Is there no opportunity for evolution or change here in Satanism?

I am not in a position to comment with any expertise on whether the ONA holds theistic views or not so I will leave that alone, but, of course, this Atheism/theism question lies at the heart of this whole thing about the T/S and should be considered in order to get a proper view of how a Priest of Set would regard the Word of Set. There are a group of people who read the Book of Coming Forth by Night and were convinced by it. I don’t think these people were being manipulated or forced into anything.

I would at least assume that the ONA’s worldview or metaphysical position would play a large part in determining the meaning they attach to words such as Satan etc.

Anyway to each their own.

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#56345 - 06/29/11 11:40 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
The causal form is not defining the acausal essence. Essence is the inner, the causal form is the outer. We could argue that the sinister is the inner of the ONA, but I could conjecture right now that it is the will to power.

The will to power motivates causal change in the phenomenal world. You have been left to your own devices to mechanise causal forms because everything something does is it's will to power.

I'm not speaking for the ONA but from what I have taken from it and hacked away at the outer form as is my way of nihilist inquisitor. Satan is an acausal entity apart from its causal, phenomenal properties of weak nuclear, strong nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravity, as it is not definable by the laws of physics but it effects the causal. Satan is not just a meme or a thoughtform.

I'd conjecture that Satan is the will to power of entropy whereby everything phenomenal wills its most disorganised state through entropy, the force of change. In a simple way, as far as we can observe the universe, Satan is the highest aspect of chaos where the will to power is playing out on the world stage.

This is the premise that I can present: Entropy permeates and motivates everything and so does the will to power, whether they are opposing forces is not important, as I can see a relationship.

Does entropic disorganisation and social anarchy antagonise the will to power into increased flux? Or is this relationship one in the same due to the limitations of human perception about the whole thing?

Is the will to power toward order creating disorder by opposing itself in greater and greater magnitude reaching out to seek resistance and entropy causes every system to seek it's most disorganised state, eventually entropy decides that energy is unavailable for work to the point of a cold dead universe, the singularity where all potentia would be unmanifest.

Entropy shattered the Judeo-Christian memeplex and thus emerged new complex ways of thinking. Entropy will exchange energy until some becomes unusable, and in doing so, more complex designs will emerge as the will to power seeks out resistance and to dominate, which means it's establishment of order emerging from the perpetual disorganisation of entropy.

All the outward causal forms through the aeons are born of the essence, whether this is the will to power or entropy or both, it's surely something some call Satan.


Edited by Hegesias (06/29/11 11:43 PM)
Edit Reason: lunacy
_________________________


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#56357 - 06/30/11 10:53 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Hegesias]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
Matthew with regards to whether the 'ONA' is 'theistic' you're really asking a question couched in exactly the kind of 'causal abstractions' that are railed against by the ONA.

What is 'theism' but another causal abstraction, categorization or social discourse used to either marginalize or not, others? What is 'Atheism' but another causal abstraction thrown around to do the same? The issue for me isn't 'theism' vs. 'Atheism', it's rationality and intellectual honesty vs. absence of rationality and absence of intellectual honesty, which represent two decidedly different things.

The simple fact is, the 'acausal entities' to my mind (and I don't speak for the ONA, simply my ONA if you can see the distinction, and my leanings aren't particularly esoteric) represent in simple terms an aspect of the 'imaginative faculty' or as DD once put it, 'mindspace'.

For instance, when you imagine a series of events taking place in your minds eye, you can move back and forward in time at will, in a dimensionless space (in that it doesn't have physical dimensions to it beyond the ones you give it in the process of such imagining). While the firing of neurons may physically allow such things to take place, those imaginings themselves are something that transcend causality to a degree. It's the nature of the intractable hard problem that even if the physical mechanics of the brain are comprehended, the innate qualia of experience of the Self still defies explanation. (Which is why mystics heap shit on top of it).

Whichever way it is sliced, a series of atoms, electrons, qurks, neutrons, gluons, (insert other field names here) produce a qualia of 'being' that defies any conventional causality that we can grasp.

That 'pure consciousness' (bleagh), that acausal essence is then immediately tainted by 'causal abstractions' from the outside (social discourses, etc.) To my mind, much of the path of the ONA is burning away those acquired causal abstractions so that one can exist closer and closer to that pure, acausal qualia of experience and 'paint their own canvas', or 'populate their own mindspace' with ideas, memes, concepts and more importantly than all of that, practical wisdom of their own choosing. It's the only way of realistically being free of the 'Magian' abstractions that are fed to you from before you can think. From birth, from before you can make a rational choice about whether to accept them or not.

As to the 'dark entities', or the 'Dark Gods' (if one gets into the Traditional Satanism thing) they are 'causal forms' that 'causal forms' of the ONA take. They are ways of presencing an aspect of that 'acausal' into the 'causal'. For instance, it is possible and indeed has been stated that the ONA itself is something acausal, but I'll come back to that later.

Jung would probably have called them archetypes, and whether materially existent as 'Gods' is really neither here nor there. In fact that's just a way to put them in a Magian box.

All that can be said with certainty is that there is a commonality of human essence around an adversarial current which breeds change through fire. That is likely a product of evolution and a psychological function, but it is certainly part of that 'acausal' essence, that realm of qualia and people seemingly can tap into it. That is an 'acausal entity' because it seemingly doesn't come from without a human being, but seemingly originates in its pure form from within.

The ONA itself can be regarded as descriptive of a certain sort with a certain essence that results in a certain causal manifestation. That essence, that innate way of being, or experiencing, or that innate perspective is an 'acausal entity' being manifested into the 'causal' by a 'Nexion' (read a person, or living thing with a brain). Is that to say that 'acausal entity' exists independently of the brains that it exists within? Or that even if it did that's a 'God' or a 'theistic concept'? Well that's really utterly irrelevant to any individual adherent and what they experience. It just depends how it is convenient for any individual to think about it.

If it helps an adherent to think of it as a God in the walking of the path, then have at it. If it helps an adherent to think of it as a psychological feature of the human experience, that is somewhat mirrored in the cosmos itself (by definition) then that's fine too. There is no prescription going on here, that's why the ONA takes so many causal forms (Traditional Satanism being only one of them).

The fact is, whatever one believes the 'acausal entity' with the 'causal name' of 'Satan' to be doesn't matter one jot to the walking of the path itself, it is described by many as 'the current', or a fundamental feature of nature and the cosmos. That progress through challenges, adversity, conflict, the strong surviving (people,memes, ideas, concepts) etc etc. There is little question that such a current is innate to human experience in some way.

The issue with Setian bullshi...I mean dogma is that there is an emphasis put on the belief in what that entity is, in some way mattering when it comes to experiencing it, or coming into contact with it. Also this nonsense about this 'entity' known as Set somehow magically 'empowering' the adherent just because they believe in it and jack off over it in the ritual chamber is directly counter any left handed attainment. That practical wisdom comes from doing, not wishing you were while stomping around in robes spouting Egyptian words that are clearly not grasped at all. In fact every 'name', 'mythology', external abstraction form the outside world heaped onto that current merely takes the adherent further away from it as the form overtakes the substance and becomes something that is believed in subjectively.

Nothing could be further from the ONA. The ONA is a path of doing, acquiring practical wisdom to burn away the parts of your thought process and mind that have been acquired from the outside (causal abstractions) until you get closer and closer to that 'you' that defies causal explanation (at least for the time being) allowing you to be sure that what is in your mind is your own.

It's the antithesis of Setian nonsense, because that's about making up some fictional external entity because it suits you, sticking a bunch of mistranslated noise in the form of Ancient Egyptian all over it then essentially stating "believing this shit for a long time just makes you fucking awesome". It's no different from Christianity - one has a subjective experience of something seemingly divine and chooses to believe that it is despite an absence of any rational or evidential justification for that belief (conveniently at a time when one is butthurt and leaving the CoS)and then acting like others are deficient in some way, not because they aren't walking a similar path, but because they don't believe in some shit you just made up in the first place.

There is nothing 'evolutionary' in the prophet Aquino. Just another hack selling mystical made up prescriptive nonsense and constantly being upset because LHP practitioners don't swallow it.

MF.


Edited by MindFux (06/30/11 11:17 AM)
Edit Reason: more errors.

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#56366 - 06/30/11 12:52 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
Dr. Aquino, here is something I don’t understand. You seem to have a problem acknowledging atheistic Satanists as authentic. Yet your organization recognizes first and second degree Setians who don’t believe in Set. Why would you deride atheistic Satanists here while accepting atheistic Setians in the ToS, thereby recognizing them as legitimate?

The cynical side of me thinks it is because if you only accepted theists into your organization, membership would shrink dramatically. However, I’m sure you will have a different answer. Incidentally, during the nine months or so I was a member of the ToS, I never once saw you refer to atheistic Setians with the same condescending tone that you use with atheistic Satanists here. Hmm....
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56372 - 06/30/11 03:08 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
Dr. Aquino, here is something I don’t understand. You seem to have a problem acknowledging atheistic Satanists as authentic. Yet your organization recognizes first and second degree Setians who don’t believe in Set. Why would you deride atheistic Satanists here while accepting atheistic Setians in the ToS, thereby recognizing them as legitimate?

Within the Temple there is no such thing as "belief in Set" in the sense of "belief" being a "blind leap of faith". What the Temple teaches are Black Magical techniques and skills, along with the ethics of where, when, and how to use these properly and responsibly. None of this requires apprehension of Set as a conscious entity per se.

The initial membership degree - Setian I° - is a "studying" degree, but it is also intended as a time of informal mutual evaluation. The Temple needs to decide whether someone has affiliated for serious, not superficial reasons, and whether he/she seems to have the capacity to undertake this kind of initiatory regimen. On the other side, the individual needs some time within the culture & systems of the Temple to decide whether it's what he/she actually expected and will enjoy and profit from.

Recognition as an Adept II° is as far as most Setians go, and it signifies just that: that they are intelligent, ethical, and competent Black Magicians who are comfortable and fluent using the Temple of Set as a resource (or "toolbox" as we say).

Nœtic apprehension of Set as a conscious entity is requisite for his Priesthood (III°), of course, since it is a literal Priesthood. Such apprehension may also occur during I° or II°, or apart from Temple affiliation for that matter, but the Priesthood requires reciprocity and consecrated commitment.

 Quote:
Incidentally, during the nine months or so I was a member of the ToS, I never once saw you refer to atheistic Setians with the same condescending tone that you use with atheistic Satanists here. Hmm....

Setians I°/II° don't pretend to be something they aren't, and they of course are not precommitted to the nonexistence of Set.

Atheists absolutely and confidently deny anything beyond the material and natural. If they left the supernatural door open even a crack, they would be agnostics. The satanatheists here [which obviously does not include the entire 600C] are far too rigid and dogmatic for that. They have absolutely no vision of Satan as an entity; their interest is rather in clutching to just the name as something to glamorize the otherwise intolerable prospect of Atheism:

 Originally Posted By: James Thomson, The City of Dreadful Night
This little life is all we must endure,
The grave's most holy peace is ever sure,
We fall asleep and never wake again;
Nothing is of us but the mouldering flesh,
Whose elements dissolve and merge afresh
In earth, air, water, plants, and other men.

We finish thus; and all our wretched race
Shall finish with its cycle, and give place
To other beings with their own time-doom:
Infinite aeons ere our kind began;
Infinite aeons after the last man
Has joined the mammoth in earth's tomb and womb.

We bow down to the universal laws,
Which never had for man a special clause
Of cruelty or kindness, love or hate:
If toads and vultures are obscene to sight,
If tigers burn with beauty and with might,
Is it by favour or by wrath of Fate?

All substance lives and struggles evermore
Through countless shapes continually at war,
By countless interactions interknit:
If one is born a certain day on earth,
All times and forces tended to that birth,
Not all the world could change or hinder it.

I find no hint throughout the Universe
Of good or ill, of blessing or of curse;
I find alone Necessity Supreme;
With infinite Mystery, abysmal, dark,
Unlighted ever by the faintest spark
For us the flitting shadows of a dream.

I don't feel contempt for atheists, although I do feel sorry for them. As Maurice Conchis said to Nicolas Urfe, "You are like a porcupine. If you keep all your quills erect, you cannot eat. If you do not eat, you will starve." When their bodies disintegrate, they will learn differently, but will have wasted their incarnated opportunity.

As for atheists using Satan's name, I don't feel contempt as much as a sort of "ironic nausea" [in the Sartre sense]. Clearly they are fascinated by, even obsessed with Satan, but, as Anton once commented to me about one such individual, "He wants to dance, but his feet won't let him."

So I sense a great deal of "satanatheist" frustration here, which as we have seen explodes occasionally into anger and vitriol wildly disproportionate to any pin that pricks the balloon. Some I think will eventually transcend this self-imposed prison (aka Plato's Cave} and become Satanists [and not necessarily through the Temple of Set either]. Others will just continue in this City of Dreadful Night in which they have convinced themselves they must remain, with the Sigil of Baphomet ghostlooming over the 600C home page like H.P. Lovecraft's Silver Key.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56375 - 06/30/11 03:49 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Surely keeping attachments to old aeons, and particularly theism, is negative. All the confusion about Left Path ideologies stems from using the same old ambiguous words that hold connotations with theism.

The Satanist will smile and stroke his beard with amused indifference and say "it's all part of the test". This is when I kindly ask for scientific explanations at knife point.

As far as I'm concerned the hidden force in nature is entropy and all that motivates life is it's will to power, no lustre. Why the need for anthropomorphising everything and packaging scientifically and psychologically explainable affirmations into esoteric hokery pokery?

Surely due to our progressions of science and psychology, by now, the mere mention of theism ought to cause the room to go silent because whoever mentioned it could possibly be quite poorly.
_________________________


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#56386 - 06/30/11 06:21 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
Dr. Aquino, atheists cannot absolutely and confidently deny anything beyond the material and natural, for the same reason theists cannot absolutely and confidently affirm anything beyond the material and natural. Well, I suppose people can deny or affirm whatever they want. But if we want to be honest, we must admit that both stances are based on belief and not knowledge because, as MindFux pointed out, such information is unknowable. In this sense we are all agnostics. Some of us are just less comfortable with this fact than others.

Admit it, you are just as rigid and dogmatic in your Theism as atheists are in their Atheism. As for me, I left the supernatural door open a crack as a Christian and later as a Setian. Both times I was left unsatisfied. You and Christians would argue that I just didn’t give it enough of a chance, that it was somehow my fault. I say do what works for you and don’t presume to know what works for me.

As for feeling sorry for atheists, save your pity. I much prefer cash. ;\)
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56397 - 06/30/11 09:52 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
There are a group of people who read the Book of Coming Forth by Night and were convinced by it.


The book written by Set is not available to public scrutiny. It's not like you can order it on amazon.com. I know that it's only accessible to members of the Priesthood. (I cannot remember what's on those pages, but I remeber the state of Mind. It's from Set's heart and Knowledge to give direction to take the Temple with leaving room for growth handed to Mike A. Aquino.)

Being infinite, Set is possessed of openness that is utterly beyond determination. This being the case, there is no determinate center. To the extent that any one point is the center, all points are the center (the people and Set in the Temple). Consequently, I say that there is many Self-identies as there are people in the Temple including Set in the contradiction that the centers are formed by every point (all members).

This is a circle within the Temple, but one that has no designated center being infinite (members of Set). What results is a center, but a center and circumference that form Self-identities through contradiction (Individiualized Psyches).

Ciao.


Edited by paolo sette (06/30/11 09:54 PM)
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#56400 - 06/30/11 10:41 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
Dr. Aquino, atheists cannot absolutely and confidently deny anything beyond the material and natural ...

Indeed they do, else they would be agnostics, not atheists.

 Quote:
we must admit that both stances are based on belief and not knowledge because, as MindFux pointed out, such information is unknowable. In this sense we are all agnostics.

My friend, you have some studying to do in the field of epistemology.

 Quote:
Admit it, you are just as rigid and dogmatic in your Theism as atheists are in their Atheism.

Not in the least. A day does not pass when I don't continue to learn more about the realm of the neteru.

 Quote:
As for me, I left the supernatural door open a crack as a Christian and later as a Setian. Both times I was left unsatisfied. You and Christians would argue that I just didn’t give it enough of a chance, that it was somehow my fault. I say do what works for you and don’t presume to know what works for me.

What Christians would say depends upon what branch of it you sampled. As for Setian initiation, one does not "give it a chance"; one must pursue it. And indeed the further you progress, the greater your dissatisfaction.

 Quote:
As for feeling sorry for atheists, save your pity. I much prefer cash. ;\)

Well, O.K.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56401 - 06/30/11 11:05 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: MindFux]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
@Mindfux

Its seems you are well versed in Egyptian glyphs and history. Will you take a few minutes of your time concerning your view on Xeper in accordance to its legitimate logistics and meaning from your studies, perhaps open a new thread on the subject? Im looking forward to your insight.

J. ©age

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#56402 - 06/30/11 11:10 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
Most, perhaps all, of the points that would be raised in such a thread have already been discussed here.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#56403 - 06/30/11 11:28 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: The Zebu]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu

To the man's credit, though, I've never seen him "troll" for membership on this forum. I also don't want this thread to turn into a "LET'S ALL BUTTFUCK AQUINO!" dogpile.


I agree...lets not turn this into an Aquino witch hunt (again) the guy has put his time in, no matter how you slice it. I give him credit for him seeding the world with LHP practitioners. Some, not all, of the ToS affiliates are, more often than not, learned in occult studies and can provide valid arguments concerning tbe Dark Arts even if we agree/disagree with the goals or aims of the Temple.

We can argue points without de-faming Mr. Aquino. Like i said, he put his time in. Im just curious Michael, why haven't you published any books other than those memoirs on the Temples website? I would think you have much to share over the last few decades. What are your current goals and aims? Im sure Mr. Flowers at runa-raven is a decent start.

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#56405 - 07/01/11 01:43 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage
I'm just curious Michael, why haven't you published any books other than those memoirs on the Temple's website?

I prefer ebooks and .pdf-papers, which I can make as extensive, complex, & colorful as desired, and which are available to anyone worldwide for $0. This also facilitates expansion, revision, and updating; The Church of Satan went through 6 Editions before I was completely satisfied with it, and The Temple of Set has already been through 11 drafts and counting. Black Magic many revisions over the years since 1975.

I have some more stories that I would like to write or am already playing with, but these are just fun things that will appear on the site when & if done.

Lilith and I are extensively involved in various animal rescue, protection, and sanctuary efforts and are configuring the Barony of Rachane to perpetuate this.

I did quite a bit of research & writing in my Army career, but unfortunately the really choice stuff is also highly classified, such as during my Space Intelligence Officer time at USSPACECOM 90-94. Well, just go buy my good friend John Alexander's latest book ... ;\)

 Quote:
What are your current goals and aims?

I have completed what I came to this planet to do, and am now just tidying up a few loose ends pending my departure. I will risk a fleeting transgression of the 600C's ban of verse to quote my mother [at age 14 in 1926]:

 Originally Posted By: Betty Ford, Pegasus in Pinfeathers
THE YOUNG MARINER

So was it that the magician spoke and died.
And I, who held his fantasies in vain,
Felt the gulls’ screams and the thin-whispered tide
Pluck strings within my heart to singing pain.
And I, who knew the thoughts that men put by,
Came to know some strange flame upon the sea,
And the clear flame, that fled before the eye,
Moved in the distant mists heart-breakingly.
Since then I had no voyages for gold,
Nor ebony, nor silks dyed peacock-blue,
Nor Eastern spice, nor jewels bright and old,
Nor ivory, as I was used to do,
And steered, while Sun and Moon and stars were bright,
Most childishly, by a far-distant light.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56406 - 07/01/11 03:28 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: paolo sette]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Hi Paolo,

The Book of Coming Forth by Night is Appendix 2 of Dr. Aquino's Temple of Set ebook.

Appendix 3 is the 'Analysis and Commentary' on the book.

Also Chapter Two of the T/S ebook gives some further insight because it deals with the experience the Dr. went through with regards to the emergence of the book and also addresses the historical/personal context within which it emerged.

Enjoy.

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#56408 - 07/01/11 11:19 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Hoary jeebus - concise, on-point posts from both Heg and Paolo in one thread. The Apocalypse draws nigh! "And on the Third Night, the Angels all relaxeth at the Pub, yeah, and they did sip of the nectar of fermented grain, and they blew Horns until the Sun riseth again, and thence did the Mad become as wise men ..."

Here the crux of the issue, as I see it portrayed in this thread. Hopefully I haven't compressed it to the point of losing clarity.

Your authentic Satanist (or, I suppose, Atheist) acknowledges only himself in his own Will, his Purpose (if any), his Godhood. Your average theist acknowledges a separate consciousness (implicitly not himself) with implicit dominance and implicit superiority, which entails a slippery slope of implied or imposed Will, implied or imposed Purpose (thus dictating all the major actions in one's life), implied or imposed Godhood over one that does not originate with himself.

In the will-to-power model, the former allows one to be number one. The latter never allows one to be the alpha male - the highest possible attainment is number two.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#56409 - 07/01/11 11:34 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
Dr. Aquino, my point (which I concede I didn’t verbalize as well as I could have) was that there is the realm of the known – the physical, material world – and there is the realm of the unknown – the supernatural. Because we do not know with regard to the supernatural, we BELIEVE either that it exists or that it doesn’t exist. We can believe very strongly, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is merely a belief, an opinion, a theory.

With regard to Set, you either believe or you know. There is no middle ground. Since you don’t know, you believe. And that’s fine – but Set is not THE theory, it is YOUR theory – well, yours and those who agree with you. You may be right, and you may be wrong.

It bugs me when you and other theists, and atheists for that matter, speak with a certainty that suggests you know when it is clear that you don’t. A little humility would be refreshing – “This is what I THINK.” To say you know THE WAY and that others who don’t latch on are somehow deficient is insulting. It’s not that people don’t get what you’re saying. They’re just not buying what you’re saying. Like Matthew, many of us here are evidence based, and the “evidence” you present is insufficient.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56411 - 07/01/11 11:56 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: William Wright

It bugs me when you and other theists, and atheists for that matter, speak with a certainty that suggests you know when it is clear that you don’t. A little humility would be refreshing – “This is what I THINK.” To say you know THE WAY and that others who don’t latch on are somehow deficient is insulting.


And this strikes at the crux of the problem. The only person that any man (or woman) can speak for with individual and personal clarity is that individual. You may feel certain that you have found that center that will hold... the touchstone of your life... but that center applies only to you and, while you might wish that it applied to everyone equally, there is no way "in heaven or on earth" that that can be possible. Individuality is a point of singularity.

LaVey once told me (and I don't know if it's a quote from someone else), "Beware of the man who KNOWS the truth." Such men (and women) have no problem dictating to others what THEIR truth must be as well. That applies to Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Setians, Wiccans and yes, even Satanists. When someone tells you what something MUST BE, your reaction should always be, "Why?"
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56418 - 07/01/11 03:01 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
 Originally Posted By: William Wright

It bugs me when you and other theists, and atheists for that matter, speak with a certainty that suggests you know when it is clear that you don’t. A little humility would be refreshing – “This is what I THINK.” To say you know THE WAY and that others who don’t latch on are somehow deficient is insulting.

And this strikes at the crux of the problem. The only person that any man (or woman) can speak for with individual and personal clarity is that individual. You may feel certain that you have found that center that will hold... the touchstone of your life... but that center applies only to you and, while you might wish that it applied to everyone equally, there is no way "in heaven or on earth" that that can be possible. Individuality is a point of singularity.

LaVey once told me (and I don't know if it's a quote from someone else), "Beware of the man who KNOWS the truth." Such men (and women) have no problem dictating to others what THEIR truth must be as well. That applies to Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Setians, Wiccans and yes, even Satanists. When someone tells you what something MUST BE, your reaction should always be, "Why?"

You're both blurring two issues: knowledge of truth and communication of that knowledge.

I am a Platonist [after Pythagoras, after Egypt]: Truth is knowable through rigorous, meticulous philosophy: the dialectic, teleology, anamnesis. [I think I've posted on 600c fairly extensively concerning all three of these, along of course concerning Plato generally, so won't redo it here.] Asserting "the truth" absent such discipline [and the intellectual capacity to exercise it] is indeed insubstantial - either inadequate personal whim or propagandistic indoctrination.

I hardly need say that the latter approach to "truth" prevails in human society, as it always has, and both of you [along with Anton LaVey] are justified in expressing contempt for it. One of my Army professional specialties was PSYOP, in which not just "truth" but its sources, contexts, applications, and implications are all deliberately controlled variables. Indeed, by the time I graduated from the PSYOP Officer Course at the JFK Center, society and its beliefs, morals, laws, traditions, principles, religions, etc. just appeared to be one big cesspool, in which most people are blissfully unaware they are swimming. Even when someone discovers and objects to one piece of bullshit, he usually just counters or replaces it with another.

Platonic epistemology transcends this, hence an authentic philosopher (in Plato's sense) is quite capable of discovering, recognizing, and knowing Truth, which emanates from the primal universal Forms/Principles/neteru. Communication of such wisdom to others is an entirely different matter, and some would say impossible: One cannot "imbue" others with Truth; they must love, pursue, and attain it themselves [= the Parable of the Cave in The Republic]. The most that the wise can do is to convince others to trust in their enlightened guidance [as Philosopher-Kings of The Republic] or at least in a system of positive cooperation [The Laws].

It is thus that in certain matters in which I am such a philosopher, I indeed assert knowledge of the Truth. I just as forthrightly recognize my inability to transfer this to others. Other philosophers may apprehend it by themselves; non-philosophers experience it only through its reflection in applications (as for example Black Magic).

And of course non-philosophers don't like the notion that their thinking-processes are less than philosophical. Hence Mr. Wright is "insulted". In 507 BCE Pythagoras' school at Crotona was attacked by a mob of “deficient intellectuals” and entirely destroyed together with 40 of the students. Pythagoras himself fled to the Temple of the Muses at Metapontum, where, after being besieged by a mob for over a month, he finally perished. Plato, having failed to actualize The Republic in Magna Græcia (Italy), returned home to Greece and wrote The Laws. Such resentment and anger is no more necessary than, say, towards a skilled martial artist by someone who isn't. Both are disciplines requiring capacity, study, and effort. Popular acceptance of this in martial arts, but emotional rejection of it in thinking, is what makes the PSYOP/propagandist's job that much easier.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56421 - 07/01/11 04:13 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
This is lovely written and it might be convincing to some but others might wonder about the claim “I assert knowledge of the truth” and ask if this is because you think it is or because someone told you so which both would not rule out the option nothing of it being truth at all. Truth is, there is no truth (ha) and that anyone claiming to know the truth is, if convinced, fooling himself while trying to fool his audience.

There have been so many knowing quite different truths and you'd think anyone of them would wonder why it's always the others being wrong.

D.

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#56425 - 07/01/11 05:55 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
This is lovely written and it might be convincing to some but others might wonder about the claim “I assert knowledge of the truth” and ask if this is because you think it is or because someone told you so which both would not rule out the option nothing of it being truth at all. Truth is, there is no truth (ha) and that anyone claiming to know the truth is, if convinced, fooling himself while trying to fool his audience.

There have been so many knowing quite different truths and you'd think anyone of them would wonder why it's always the others being wrong.

Again this is simply the supercilious rationalizing of the uneducated, inexperienced, and untested in philosophical epistemology.

I assert such competence because the University of California judged me so (Ph.D. Political Science, in which one of my graduate qualification fields was Philosophy), the Defense Department judged me so (Primary Specialty Politico-Military Affairs Officer, qualified by the JFK Special Warfare Center, the CIA, the DIA, and the State Department Foreign Service Institute), Anton LaVey judged me so (Magister Templi IV°) and Set judged me so (Ipsissimus VI°). Beyond all such external education, qualification, and judgment, the philosopher must appreciate and observe a personal threshold and standard of disciplinary precision: the Agathon. As one of my graduate teachers & judges, Prof. Raghavan Iyer, summarized it in his Parapolitics:

 Originally Posted By: Raghavan Iyer, "Agathon and the Cave", Parapolitics
... In the world of knowledge the archtypal idea of the Good, the Agathon, appears last of all and is seen with strain. It is only then inferred to be the universal source of all things beautiful and right; the parent of the orb of light in this visible world and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual world; the power upon which the eye must be fixed in private and public life in order to act rationally. It is not surprising, we are told, that those who attain to this beatific vision are usually unwilling to descend to mundane affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell. Those who do descend from divine contemplations to the underground den [of Plato's Cave - M.A.] will not find it easy to deal with those who have never yet seen the fire of the cave, much less the Agathon, the transcendental Good ...

_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56427 - 07/01/11 06:29 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
No, this is not the uneducated, inexperienced and untested speaking, this is the satanist asking “so you know the truth huh, well, why should I believe that what you say is true?”

Your whole rapsheet does nothing but say “this is why you must agree I am capable of speaking the truth, not that it is the truth.” Mike, baby J had old graybeard up there as his credentials and we didn't really consider that a solid argument either, so why suddenly change our approach?

D.

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#56431 - 07/01/11 09:39 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
No, this is not the uneducated, inexperienced and untested speaking, this is the satanist asking “so you know the truth huh, well, why should I believe that what you say is true?”

Your whole rapsheet does nothing but say “this is why you must agree I am capable of speaking the truth, not that it is the truth.” Mike, baby J had old graybeard up there as his credentials and we didn't really consider that a solid argument either, so why suddenly change our approach?

Don't. Bliss is so much more comforting. Take the blue pill.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56435 - 07/02/11 04:51 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Mike you are an intellectual coward.

D.

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#56447 - 07/02/11 12:52 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
MAA's point is he is right because he believes he is. Any attempt to discuss ideas becomes him putting his hands over his ears then stating again, that he is right because he believes it and others that don't clearly are intellectually deficient because they do not share his faith. (When faith has nothing to do with intellect.)

The fact is he knows nothing of 'Egyptology' - his assertion that a Ph.D in psychology means he's a recognized philosopher (despite never having produced a peer reviewed paper of any kind among philosophy academics) is just more of the same irrational over reaching. (The fact it's a doctorate of Philosophy doesn't mean that everyone possesing one is a de facto philosopher as understood by the school of philosophy. After all I'm not expecting esoteric wisdom from a phd of engineering). As to relying on his army record as a symbol of his worth - given they recommended he be discharged in part over false claims of child molestation and refused to remove his name from a report on the subject I don't think they can exactly be called a reliable judge of character one way or the other.

This is the same act played by all of this cult leading ilk. They are right because they believe they are and because they are 'intellectually special'. These are just the rantings of an old man, crushed because his Wikipedia page has been deleted, stunned that his only achievement is being mentioned in the same breath as the man who made him. Pretty pathetic really but I'd expect nothing less from such a sham. For all his claims of philosophy and knowledge when put to the test he fails every time, from his absence of knowledge on his founding tenets, to JK owning him up and down the forums on basic philosophy which it's clear MAA just wasn't familiar with it's the same pattern. He's shown up, produces a nonsense response and argues that because others rationally disagree with him they are somehow less than him.

The only one taking the 'Blue Pill' is his mundane ass that requires so many fictional causal abstractions to provide meaning to a life clearly devoid of any given it can't stand on its own 2 feet. Ideas need to stand separately from the man that produced them and irrespective of his background. Unfortunately for him his don't and LaVey is dead so no one has reason to even care who MAA is any more. This response may seem harsh, well so be it. I am tired of a wrecked old fool calling into question the intelligence of his betters.

MF


Edited by MindFux (07/02/11 01:13 PM)

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#56461 - 07/02/11 04:14 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: MindFux]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm not bothered if his Egyptian lingo is correct or not MF, as I am not bothered about the product he tries to sell but what I find quite remarkable is that someone who should know satanists, expects them to exclude him from their normal critical approach.

If overly critical, to his ignore list you go, but truly this doesn't change anything since those criticizing are on that ignore list anyways. Sure he's acting as if they're rude and he is so above that, but how would we call an approach that constantly ignores any substantial criticism or downplays it with childishness. Take the blue pill boy. Sure but I first got to believe some harder like the other suggested.

Fact is, he's a Missy acting prude while prostituting herself at night. Down here, if you got a product to sell, convincing works better than fooling.

D.

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#56466 - 07/02/11 04:42 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
Him ignoring people simply means that he's incapable of holding his own in a discourse with them because they won't conform to his golden rule number 1. Aquino is always right because he's 'Mikey'.

There's nothing in his approach that isn't insulting, he just does it in more passive aggressive and indirect way and hopes that because not 100% of the people will see through it for what it is that no one will notice.

Whether he has 'ignored' me or not makes little difference to me. As I have said before, he already knows he's a complete sham, and as long as he throws up shitty ideas, I'll critique them whether he reads my posts or not - because I'm not trying to convince him of anything. He's beneath my time, and my posts only serve as a counterpoint for his nonsense that others might read if they want. If not it's no skin off my nose.

MF.


Edited by MindFux (07/02/11 04:44 PM)

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#56473 - 07/02/11 07:16 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
The Book of Coming Forth by Night is Appendix 2 of Dr. Aquino's Temple of Set ebook.


It is the Absolute Truth of the past, present and future in a concise manuscript to posit caveats. The warnings are there for competent people to read, and Life has shown me that it Will unfold even before the kind gesture to re-read the document. But, Mike, take note that not all Setians will be saved for reasons you have been made privy to. It is the nature of True Reality.

Most humans are excluded, so embrace your Satanist background and go forth producing and consuming to the extent feasible by your Self; for, the majority of you just have a single, partial, fragmentary and suffering/pleasing Life. So, live it.

Judgment establishes Knowledge along with a plethora of other things, but I just wanted to further comment on the applicability of the facts of Life. Through Knowledge gained by Judgment you are privy to knowing the facts. Judgment consists of inclusion or exclusion of subjects to a universal predicate (Set as revealed to Mike), so an inclusive judgment is the most fundamental and crucial for survival of humankind. Inclusive or exclusive judgment encompasses a particular (e.g. humankind on an individual basis) with a character of allowing or removing specific differences with an enforcer.

Mike is just doing his one of his many responsibilities in warning others, and deserves accolades instead of being silenced.

Behold, O West. I have established my Aeon. I punish the enemies who are in it placed in the Place of Destruction. I deliver them to the examiners from whose guard there is no escape. Lo! I pass near to thee. I pass near to thee!
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#56474 - 07/02/11 08:08 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: paolo sette]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Unfortunately I don't think we are going get anywhere with this debate.

Both sides have their own, for want of better words, metaphysical position, and nobody is really going to change the metaphysical position of the other side.

Couple this with a group of individuals who champion a healthy ego and are more or less adversarial and ...

The posts as usual are of the highest possible quality mostly, but the personal attacks and insults are unworthy of members of the world's finest online Satanic lair, in my opinion.

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#56475 - 07/02/11 08:39 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
I may be an unlikely ally of Dr. Aquino, but I’d like to offer a few thoughts in his defense:

• In practically every debate other than Set/non-Set, Dr. Aquino has been a gracious contributor.
• Although I think most of what MindFux said here has been spot on, his use of “old” in criticizing Dr. Aquino was a cheap shot. Age is not the issue, and I think MF would agree.
• Early in my time here, I fucked up bad. Hell responded with a vengeance (deservedly so). Dr. Aquino PM’ed me, not to add to the beating but to offer a bit of guidance. He was the only respondent who didn’t kick me when I was down, and I’ll never forget that.

Carry on.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56482 - 07/03/11 12:31 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Unfortunately I don't think we are going get anywhere with this debate.

I now have "MindFux" & "Diavolo" on "ignore"; so as far as I am concerned they can debate themselves, or anyone else who desires to. When I put someone on "ignore", I think it is only fair to not comment further either to or about them.

One of the reasons that I came to the 600C in the first place was to see what ideas and attitudes are currently prevalent in the [non-Setian] self-acknowledged "Satanic" culture today. The 600C seemed then, as still now, the most intellectual and sophisticated assemblage within this culture. I have learned a good deal here, while at the same time raising some fundamental questions with which I think aspiring Satanists have yet to fully come to grip.

One of the assets of the 600C is its elitism, but that also promotes what in Political Science we know as "groupthink". It's a common phenomenon; we have to watch out for it in the Temple of Set too. One of the symptoms, once it sets in, can be disproportionately emotional reactions by some individuals to any challenge to the GT "core"; if they can deflect the conversation into an ad hominem fight, the more disturbing "core" questions can be avoided.

And some of these "core" questions have no readily-apparent answers. Not everyone who feels the "Satanic impulse" should or could be a Setian; that's a substantially-different and distinct universe. Yet within the context of "Satanism", we find today not just the question of the identity and existence of its central figure [Can we conceive of Buddhism without the Buddha, Christianity without Jesus, Islam without Mohammed, etc.?], but also - as we were already bumping our noses against during 1966-75 - the inherent confinement of a paradigm conceptualized as the "negation of something else". As you can see from The Church of Satan, we all worked very hard to wrench Satan/Satanism around into something in its own right both independent and positive. But, and again outside of our own enclave, it was a largely frustrating experience. [In the Army we would call it "pissing upwind".]

This particular thread pried the same, somewhat battered door open again. So you're a "Satanist" with the 600C Seal of Approval stamped on your forehead, and you go out into the World of Horrors (as I called it in the Ceremony of the Nine Angles). To what extent can what you learn here, or call yourself here, work "out there"?

In the original Church Anton LaVey actually had a ritual to highlight and satirize this dilemma - "The Madness of Andelsprutz" (Appendix #4 of COS), wherein the lunatics of an asylum select the craziest from among them to go out into the world, then arm him/her with suitable protective devices against the even more psychotic "sane" outsiders. The similarities to this thread should be amusingly obvious.

And of course I myself am a pretty good case study for "public Satanism out there", because, from the moment I was ordained to the Priesthood III° in 1970, I was completely open about it, including a lifelong career as a U.S. Army officer, with graduate school and a subsequent university professorship on the side. And in the middle of this came the most extreme and dangerous "test" - the international witchhunt hysteria of the 1980s. I came through all this OK, but if some kid starts a 600C thread like this and asks, "Would you recommend it?", I'd have to answer, as in effect I did [once again], "It depends upon how really dedicated and committed you are, and to exactly what." Because if you're not, and you don't really know, I would say, "Forget it - Go do something easier, like wrestling alligators."

The "Satanic impulse" - what Setians would call the intelligent human symptom of the Gift of Set - is very real, heroic, and admirable. You all show this symptom, which is why you're here; now you're just coming to grips with it both individually and collectively. Some are cautious, cool, and methodical. Others are having a rougher time. Some shoot themselves in the foot, or both feet; or others' feet. That's just how rocky the Left-Hand Path is.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56483 - 07/03/11 01:04 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Ok, so we have gone 7 pages now and I will now invoke Fist's School of Practical Magic.

A few general points...

To the original poster, 'to thy own self be true.' As MAA alludes to, you must find exactly what the "truth" is. What is it that you 'really' want. Are you fulfilling your own true desires or the the ersatz desires that you have been programed to have. In truth, most people will never have an original thought. They will simply regurgitate the ideas of others and claim that they thought this all along. PSYOPS in it's truest form.

As MAA points out, what is this 'Satanism' you speak of? Indeed Michael; Xear, Morgan and myself have had this very same discussion during the wee hours of the morning over strong drink and little sleep. It has even been suggested that we abandon the Satan shtick all together in favor of some other atheistic meme. However, the general consensus remains that invoking the name of Satan sends an unmistakeable message to the mass of society. Once you have claimed to be a Satanist you will no longer be looked at the same way and your own personal thought process will forever be altered. So we kept it.

Does a 'belief' in Satan require a supernatural faith? I would argue that the point is quite fine and largely irrelevant in practical sense. Only those of us here have enough understanding of the subject matter to even debate it. To the outside world Satanism means whatever they want it to mean. The true question is, are you capable of shaping your own reality?
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#56485 - 07/03/11 05:31 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Fist]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
I think it is so weird to put someone on "ignore" when they clearly arent just trolling or writing things in a certain manner to provoke a reaction.

I find that M.A.A. cant quite handle critique, or heated debate, and often tend to take the easy way out. Either bny stopping to answer in a serious manner (joking it all away) or by simply putting people on "ignore". In this thread he has done both.

It is true that he never really falls down into the really nasty tactics but that doesnt mean it is any better to blatantly disregard some peoples valid opinions just because they do not accept what you percieve of as the truth.

I found the same attitude while discussing the nature of the Self and what it was. While some can discuss it creatively M.A.A. tended to write about his views and then take a stance where he would disregard everything else, or spin it into his view, just because "he is right".

I do not wish to argue about this but that is how I percieve him partaking here. He has contributed to good things here but in general he seems very much isolated in his own world disregarding everyone else who doesnt agree without even thinking about it. But hey, perhaps thats the existence he wants for himself. After all he claims that the ultimate goal of the ToS is the immortality of the isolated psyche and the ability to create a world of their own.

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#56486 - 07/03/11 06:50 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
But of course Insane, if we'd be trolling him, we'd be bitch-slapping him with the pedo-pages. This got nothing to do with trolling but with pointing out he's selling only one product and it's Mike. There's no ToS as there is no Set, there is only Mike, Mike, Mike. And he knows we know hence when pressed against the wall with criticism, he starts to act like a baby.

He's been running a race with Anton since the days of the CoS and never could finish first. And now Anton's gone, he has to compete with a ghost which is impossible even when attempting to revision the past. If he had a solid product, he could defend it with more than "It's true and you have to believe me". That's all I asked: show me why it is the truth. So he ducks and I call that what it is; intellectual cowardism. What he does is not different than any of those religious out there; ignore criticism and demand belief.

Well, sorry I'm a satanist and I only see the same type of joke being played I see elsewhere and his past nor pretense doesn't make any difference in that. If people want to take him serious, let them but some of us are not that gullible. If you want no criticism, keep your mouth shut here, it's that easy. You can't have both.

If this is Satanism, Satanism is sure going through sorry days. You know what's funny, I'm laughing all along because these are the builders of Modern Satanism and look, seriously just look at that.

D.

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#56488 - 07/03/11 07:35 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
If he had a solid product, he could defend it with more than "It's true and you have to believe me". That's all I asked: show me why it is the truth. So he ducks and I call that what it is; intellectual cowardism. What he does is not different than any of those religious out there; ignore criticism and demand belief.


This is pretty much spot on. A shame really since it is very interesting having a person around who, for good or bad, has been around the movement (*wink* D.Dread *wink*) for such a long time. Oh well...

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#56489 - 07/03/11 09:08 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Of course it is a shame but what is even more a shame is that we just let it slide. It's a shame that when you're satanic, you're called rude by them for being satanic. The reason Satanism exists is exactly because we said “hmm is that really so?” and discovered the answers and arguments were simply not satisfying, more often than not they were mere excuses, diversions. We discovered they all were hiding behind things cast in stone and acts of faith. We never cared about their credentials or accomplishments when it came to the truth they shared so why would we start now?

 Quote:
I question all things. As I stand before the festering and varnished facades of your haughtiest moral dogmas, I write thereon in letters of blazing scorn: Lo and behold; all this is fraud!


D.

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#56493 - 07/03/11 12:19 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
Standing at the side-line and see the plot unfold has always been great for spending time.
As far as the truth goes and the intellectual venom-spitting disguised as what should be a discussion..

Words of the wise come up: "To each their own". (Re)constructing truth by words is good enough to form an idea. Every man has his own eyes and views, what matters would be "what shall I do with it". If I tend to believe in flying mechanical unicorns who created earth, what harm will it do if it enabled my psychological well-being to develop a fantastic mind and carreer?

Make up whatever you want, just chill out. Real live achievements are being reached when the brain isn't fucked up. As for that matter, I prefer to walk next to a Muslim/Christian who is managing his own bussiness and/or has personal goals reached then next to a Satanist who tries to show the other he is wrong.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#56494 - 07/03/11 01:11 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: TheInsane]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
I think it is so weird to put someone on "ignore" when they clearly arent just trolling or writing things in a certain manner to provoke a reaction.

"MindFux" is on "ignore" for rudeness and tediousness [I can't make up my mind which is worse]. "Diavolo" because, as I drew the comparison to Pancho Pillow in The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, I have seen nothing but me-too put-downs of anyone/everyone in his/her posts [and I took the time to review them collectively]. Like Kesey, I am not interested in taking D's personal Bad Trip. That's all. If you enjoy either/both, that's assuredly your prerogative.

 Quote:
I find that M.A.A. cant quite handle critique, or heated debate, and often tend to take the easy way out. Either bny stopping to answer in a serious manner (joking it all away) or by simply putting people on "ignore". In this thread he has done both.

On the contrary, I think that the record of my postings here (which anyone can select/review) indicates that I have taken much care with courteous, serious questions. I occasionally inject a little light humor when it seems appropriate, and I have no apologies for that. You want gritted-teeth-deadpan all the time, hey, it's your life.

 Quote:
It is true that he never really falls down into the really nasty tactics but that doesnt mean it is any better to blatantly disregard some peoples valid opinions just because they do not accept what you percieve of as the truth.

The caveat here is "valid opinions". Recall the old truism: "Opinions are like assholes; everybody has one." The 600C is no exception, and all opinions, mine included, are subject to others' critical evaluation. I appreciate and learn from some; I am indifferent to some; and concerning others, to cite another aphorism, "If I wanted to hear from an asshole, I'd fart." But it's easier just to use the "ignore" option.

 Quote:
I found the same attitude while discussing the nature of the Self and what it was. While some can discuss it creatively M.A.A. tended to write about his views and then take a stance where he would disregard everything else, or spin it into his view, just because "he is right".

Unlike some here, I am speaking from a great many years of education, teaching, and experience. While I do not bash impudent upstarts over the head with this, it is a reality, just as it was at the university when students signed up for my PolSci classes. When I was a student, I sometimes felt like a superior or at least a peer too. Usually I wound up with egg on my face.

Satanism, as in the Satanic Bible's "Book of Lucifer", has a lot of built-in smart-ass. Where society's brittle & outmoded sacred cows are concerned, this is arguably appropriate. It is less so on a personal level. Anton routinely grumped to me, and probably Jake too, about the parade of nincompoops who would expect him to treat them like peers. [He too would either deflate them with a little humor or, if necessary, eject them (from 6114, from the Church, from in front of his face). That was his "ignore"-button.]

 Quote:
... in general he seems very much isolated in his own world disregarding everyone else who doesnt agree without even thinking about it.

One of Plato's objections was to the "democratization of truth": the notion that the more people believe something, the more accurate, true, or valid it is. DOT is obviously prevalent throughout human history & culture, but on this I stand with Plato - conditional, also like him, on reaching my conclusions and judgments through a long and careful crucible of learning, examination, and experience.

The flip side of this is that, if you're going to take a stand on something instead of "just going with the flow", you'll be at least inconveniently conspicuous, at most a target for destruction. As the First Beast put it:

 Originally Posted By: Aleister Crowley, The Confessions
If one had to worry about one’s actions in respect of other people’s ideas, one might as well be buried alive in an antheap or married to an ambitious violinist. Whether that man is the prime minister, modifying his opinions to catch votes, or a bourgeois in terror lest some harmless act should be misunderstood and outrage some petty convention, that man is an inferior man and I do not want to have anything to do with him any more than I want to eat canned salmon.

Of course the world forces us all to compromise with our environment to some extent, and we only waste our strength if we fight pitched battles for points which are not worth a skirmish. It is only a faddist who refuses to conform with conventions of dress and the like. But our sincerity should be Roman about things that really matter to us.

And I am still in doubt, as I write these words, as to how far it is right to employ strategy and diplomacy in order to gain one’s point. The great men of the world have stood up and taken their medicine ...

Adaptation to one’s environment makes for a sort of survival; but after all, the supreme victory is only won by those who prove themselves of so much harder stuff than the rest that no power on Earth is able to destroy them. The people who have really made history are the martyrs.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56495 - 07/03/11 01:15 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It's amusing that it is you having this sort of criticism not?

This isn't about tolerating what or what not others believe. This is about not tolerating anyone here selling his ideas as the truth, considering all not seeing it as such lesser gifted, and acting like a Missy while refusing to back up their claims. This is about selling a product while refusing to answer questions about it.

What most don't see is that this all is just proselytizing, trying to get to the gullible. This isn't a that innocent game, it is psychological manipulation, almost done by the book. You lie, you deny, you minimize, you divert, you evade and you shame. Is that really so hard to see, especially when considering his background? Don't you find it strange he at all times tries to remain pure while not hesitating to stain. Don't you find it strange he is so eager in delivering criticism while avoiding it at all costs? You want me to show you the mechanics of the game or do you prefer looking it up yourself? This is classic shit, outdated, but still effective when your target group is unaware. I can show you the product, explain how and why it is constructed and how it is being sold here. You can check it for yourself, no need to take my word.

If this was solely about someone believing some stuff, I could care less, as I didn't care before.

But hey, what do I know, I didn't swallow the right pill.

D.

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#56498 - 07/03/11 01:31 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Anton routinely grumped to me, and probably Jake too, about the parade of nincompoops who would expect him to treat them like peers. [He too would either deflate them with a little humor or, if necessary, eject them (from 6114, from the Church, from in front of his face). That was his "ignore"-button.


LOL! His "ignore button" sometimes even included a personal demonstration of a "bums rush" down that steep set of brick stairs from the front door, administered by myself or another of the gentlemen there at any given time. And no, it's not because he couldn't do it himself. That was part of the point... he detested shit disturbers and game players and the overly and unduly pretentious. He had someone else take out the garbage. He had more important things to do.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56499 - 07/03/11 01:38 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
What most don't see is that this all is just proselytizing, trying to get to the gullible. This isn't a that innocent game, it is psychological manipulation, almost done by the book. You lie, you deny, you minimize, you divert, you evade and you shame. Is that really so hard to see, especially when considering his background? Don't you find it strange he at all times tries to remain pure while not hesitating to stain. Don't you find it strange he is so eager in delivering criticism while avoiding it at all costs? You want me to show you the mechanics of the game or do you prefer looking it up yourself? This is classic shit, outdated, but still effective when your target group is unaware. I can show you the product, explain how and why it is constructed and how it is being sold here. You can check it for yourself, no need to take my word.

The difference between us 2 would be that I'm an outsider and see things from a different perspective. And yes, it is once again me giving critics. I see it in my limited freedom as a right to point at things for whatever reason I come up with.

I am aware of his backgrounds in PSYOPS and am more then enough aware of basic and advanced applications. I simply don't care about it in the first place and tend to filter such things out.

As a matter of fact, I find the behaviour you describe quite natural. He is not the only one acting as such.

In the end, you make the choice to bite his bait not someone else.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#56500 - 07/03/11 01:49 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
It's amusing that it is you having this sort of criticism not?

This isn't about tolerating what or what not others believe. This is about not tolerating anyone here selling his ideas as the truth, considering all not seeing it as such lesser gifted, and acting like a Missy while refusing to back up their claims. This is about selling a product while refusing to answer questions about it.

What most don't see is that this all is just proselytizing, trying to get to the gullible. This isn't a that innocent game, it is psychological manipulation, almost done by the book. You lie, you deny, you minimize, you divert, you evade and you shame. Is that really so hard to see, especially when considering his background? Don't you find it strange he at all times tries to remain pure while not hesitating to stain. Don't you find it strange he is so eager in delivering criticism while avoiding it at all costs? You want me to show you the mechanics of the game or do you prefer looking it up yourself? This is classic shit, outdated, but still effective when your target group is unaware. I can show you the product, explain how and why it is constructed and how it is being sold here. You can check it for yourself, no need to take my word.

D.


Not to fan flames or stir the pot, Diavolo, because honestly, that's not my point here. But the same can be said for any of the theistic types that want to spread the word here... and indeed the ONA types, who are great on dropping memes and memeplexes and making grand allusions to some sinister left that's somehow the boogey man in the closet and dangerous to all outside. But when questioned, asked to provide proofs positive, theists and the ONAs and the Cults of whatever Lovecraftian bugaboo floats their boat ALWAYS fall back on the same types of behaviors and answers.

"You don't have to believe it... but it's real. Proof? Well... that's something maybe we don't need to provide."

So in MMA's defense, if he's guilty of obfuscation, he's not doing anything that isn't common here and elsewhere on the web. Granted, he's a MASTER at deflection and oblique attack... but he's been well trained and schooled. Red pill or Blue pill, most of us here aren't about to swallow any of the claims of those who tout their systems without tangible proofs or at least believable anecdotes. As for the gullible... I've watched them steer away from their own well defined truths to embrace the pipe dreams of another over and over again. That's what the gullible do. Why should we protect them from their nature?

Life's first lesson has always been CAVEAT EMPTOR. Let the buyer beware.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56501 - 07/03/11 01:59 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
But of course, ultimately everyone is selling a product but not all act like a kid caught with their hand in the cookie jar upon discovery. He can have all the gullible he desires since that's what the weak are there for anyways but don't come amongst satanists and act undignified when they're asking the right sort of question. Sure all are selling but the only ones ducking criticism that much here were the christians. All the rest sure is able to state their case and stick by it.

If you're making claims, be ready to back them up. Would that not be logical?

D.

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#56502 - 07/03/11 02:03 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
Oxus Offline
member


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 513
What? Another Dr. Aquino bashing? LOL . . . seems He can no sooner open His mouth than be attacked, as many other threads prove.

These are not discussions, they are blatant attacks on Dr. Aquino. These attacks seem to me to stem from the very base of which they are attacking . . . 'I'm Right & You're Wrong'.

Instead of the Truly cowardice ad hominem attack, intelligent debate concerning the subject would be a better way to chess-play with Dr. Aquino (or anyone for that matter).
I mean, people just wipe the chessboard pieces off when they aren't winning.

I came to this forum to listen to Dr. Aquino's discussions regarding his tenure with the CoS and Satanism / Setian philosophies. I also desired to understand a bit more about Satanism.

I certainly hope that what I have witnessed in this thread
is not representative of today's Satanist?

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#56504 - 07/03/11 02:08 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
[
 Quote:
Sure all are selling but the only ones ducking criticism that much here were the christians. All the rest sure is able to state their case and stick by it.

Sounds logical, since they were entering "our lair".
You could also wonder how long you can give critisism in an xian place and stand your ground.
It's relative.. up here it would seem they are ducking criticism from your point of view, when you go to their place I'm pretty sure you'll be pointed at as the one who ducks critisism.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#56505 - 07/03/11 02:10 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Oxus]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Oxus
What? Another Dr. Aquino bashing? LOL . . . seems He can no sooner open His mouth than be attacked, as many other threads prove.


Instead of brown-nosing, you maybe should read this thread.

I'll briefly repeat the basics:

MMA: I know the truth.
D: Is that so? Why would I believe that to be true?
MMA: because I'm Aquino and have done this and that.
D: Done this and that isn't really a good argument is it?
MMA: Look there, a bird, you ignorant twat.
D: coward.

Sure, a goddamn bash-fest not?

D.

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#56506 - 07/03/11 03:13 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
"You don't have to believe it... but it's real. Proof? Well... that's something maybe we don't need to provide."

This I have never said; see for example this post of mine to Jason King.

And indeed I recommend a reading, or re-reading, of the included "The Prince and The Magician".
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56507 - 07/03/11 03:40 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
You must have misread my post.

"You don't have to believe it... but it's real. Proof? Well... that's something maybe we don't need to provide." Has been the standard fallback position of those on the web wanting to peddle their esoteric wares, from theists secret orders. To single you and the Temple of Set out for doing the same thing without condemning them out of hand would be disingenuous at best.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56509 - 07/03/11 04:00 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
To single you and the Temple of Set out for doing the same thing ...

But the Temple of Set doesn't do that, per the example linked in my response (which is just one of many posts here I could reference).

As commented to King, "proof" in the OU/laboratory sense is [not unreasonably] limited to the OU. Within the collective/each individual's SU, there is no such thing (the "moral" of The Prince and The Magician). Instead there is Plato's "pyramid of thought" to the Agathon, which is a very precarious ascent of dialectic & nœsis. OU-conditioned minds shy away from it, and of course the Great Unwashed habitually substitute "faith" for it, if they bother to consider it at all.

[Pausing to roll back my sleeves ... ]
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56510 - 07/03/11 04:19 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
M.A.A.

Well its your choice to do whatever you want of course. I am however quite surprised at your choice of action sometimes. Especially when a debate gets heated and difficult but valid arguments come your way. You either retreat or keep saying the same thing post after post like it becomes more true if you say it more times.

It doesnt happen at all times and I understand that you may be more liable to heavy critique but still. Whether its about the existence of Set, the nature of the Self or if its valid to be called a Satanist without a belief in a "real" Satan you seem to be unable to take in much of what people answer your posts with.

I hope Im not coming across as a basher like Oxus suggests (maybe not directed at me but still). I am not here to bash but I find that it is quite sad when valid points are being brought up but you leave the discussion for whatever excuse. One example which could have been a great discussion if the one about Egyptian lingo and how the ToS really has no grasp of even the basics according to MindFux. Not saying that was just your fault but I would have loved to have seen what a mature and respectable debate on the subject would have turned into.

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#56511 - 07/03/11 04:44 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
nightowl Offline
Douchebag
stranger


Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 17
Well sticking with the op of real live achievements...
I'm going to have to say hands down Michael Aquino is high man on the totem pole.
When trying to find out who these anonymous nics are or what they have actualy achieved is virtualy null or concoted unprovable BS.
Where as Dr Aquino can count some of the occult greats in his priesthood Stephen Flowers Don Web and Himself.

This mindfux has a website but all it seems to entail is him performing breaking and entering as an insight role.
Now can we believe anyone would do this then broadcast it on the internet?
of coarse not..
the anticapitali express

Seems more of a jealousy thing towards Mr Aquino.

All the hoopla of the Xeper as a verb was rediculous and pointless.
Any occultist knows a scarab beatle stands for initiatory transformation
I don't see where they are wrong at all in there symbolism Kheper

but the verbs wrong...

If anyones making it up as they go along i'd say ONA has taken the nine angles name from Aquino
The tree of Wyrd from Stephen Flowers
dark gods and entities from Lovecraft.
the list goes on...

Ah but they don't peddle that stuff anymore it's all about "doing" which entails them bragging about commiting crimes on the net?
Being subversive yet telling everyone your being subversive?

Now that's all realy believable pffft...

Bringing down society everyday by trolling satanic sites telling on the crimes they commit ?

Makes perfect sence and oh so believable.

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#56512 - 07/03/11 05:43 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: TheInsane]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
Well its your choice to do whatever you want of course. I am however quite surprised at your choice of action sometimes. Especially when a debate gets heated and difficult but valid arguments come your way. You either retreat or keep saying the same thing post after post like it becomes more true if you say it more times.

[Ahem] pot/kettle/black, per your previous post above.

When I post a comment here, it's often on some initiatory concepts or principles that are a bit tough to grasp, and which require some thought-gymnastics. This is not to jerk anyone's chain; it's just where the exit to the Cave leads. The Prince's final option to decide is yours as well.

 Quote:
It doesnt happen at all times and I understand that you may be more liable to heavy critique but still. Whether its about the existence of Set, the nature of the Self or if its valid to be called a Satanist without a belief in a "real" Satan you seem to be unable to take in much of what people answer your posts with.

There is only so much that I can say without being repetitious, or without going beyond the time/space limitations of a board post. That's why I frequently include links to my or others' more extensive writings - which, from posted responses, relatively few put forth the effort to follow up.

 Quote:
I hope Im not coming across as a basher like Oxus suggests (maybe not directed at me but still). I am not here to bash but I find that it is quite sad when valid points are being brought up but you leave the discussion for whatever excuse. One example which could have been a great discussion if the one about Egyptian lingo and how the ToS really has no grasp of even the basics according to MindFux. Not saying that was just your fault but I would have loved to have seen what a mature and respectable debate on the subject would have turned into.

I'm not concerned about "bashing", particularly when it just signals laziness on the part of the basher. There is no place in Satanism for spoon-feeding, or for pandering to fragile egos. You are presented with a question here which interests or bothers you, then go investigate and solve it. Need some motivation? Buy a copy of Morgan's book. \:\)

In the thread concerning Don Webb's Xeper discussion, I said all I felt it necessary to say on the topic, and indeed dignified "MindFux'" harangues far more than they deserved. If you disagree, then by all means go right back there and render the Osculum Infame as you desire.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56513 - 07/03/11 06:09 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
nightowl Offline
Douchebag
stranger


Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 17
Dr Aquino is there a setian tarot available anywhere?
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#56518 - 07/03/11 08:11 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
Mike,

Deconstruct attacks. On Mike's behalf:

Proof is intended to be three-fold: Perception, Inference and/or Testimony. By these, all Proofs are established. From Proof, verily is the establishment of the Provables.

Perception is the ascertainment of each object by the Senses. Inference has been declared to precede by the mark of the Mind, and it is preceded by the thing of which it is the mark of the Mind. While Testimony is the statement of trustworthy entities (e.g. Set)

Apprehension of even existing things may not take place through extreme remoteness, nearness, impairment of the Senses, non-prescence of the Mind, extreme fineness, intervention, suppression by other matters, intermixture and/or other causes.

Proof: either you have it or you don't.

;\)

Set-Heh
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#56520 - 07/03/11 09:11 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
 Originally Posted By: Michael Aquino
Unlike some here, I am speaking from a great many years of education, teaching, and experience. While I do not bash impudent upstarts over the head with this, it is a reality, just as it was at the university when students signed up for my PolSci classes. When I was a student, I sometimes felt like a superior or at least a peer too. Usually I wound up with egg on my face.


Although education and experience certainly have their place, these qualities alone don't make someone right. Surely you realized this in 1975 when you left your mentor Anton LaVey to form your own organization.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56522 - 07/03/11 09:19 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: nightowl]
Oxus Offline
member


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 513
 Originally Posted By: nightowl
Dr Aquino is there a setian tarot available anywhere?
Yep, but they're all gone

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#56526 - 07/04/11 04:19 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: nightowl]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: nightowl
Dr Aquino is there a setian tarot available anywhere?

Setians are eclectic in their systems of study and will use any available tools for divination.


Edited by Mister Cage (07/04/11 04:52 AM)

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#56527 - 07/04/11 04:48 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Oxus]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Oxus


I came to this forum to listen to Dr. Aquino's discussions regarding his tenure with the CoS and Satanism / Setian philosophies. I also desired to understand a bit more about Satanism.


Then it seems your in the wrong thread, no? Perhaps you should bounce out and let the grown-ups play or atleast contribute to the topic instead of narrating your position. Dr. Aquino has it under control and the topic seems to be un-veiling before us. So unless your gonna tag in to refresh mr. Aquino i suggest you tag out. Not to be rude but your late and have provided us with nothing but prior accounts. Im not saying it wasn't a great pleasure to hear your voice, but it would have resonated better elsewhere.

Perhaps you can send him a p.m. to fullfill those "desires"?

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#56534 - 07/04/11 11:06 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You can't stop the fan-boys from doing their thing Cage. The same for that other stooge to whom I suggest that all questions and comments he has regarding ONA, he can freely list in a new post and they'll be answered by anyone feeling the desire. None is going to point the finger at birds up in the sky and run.

Besides that, I'd like to disagree the dear Dr. has everything under control. Control, last I checked, didn't involve running, hiding, ignoring and throwing a hissy fit because someone dared to say coward. The horror, the horror.

Control, no that doesn't really feel as the correct word to use here.

D.

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#56539 - 07/04/11 12:26 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: nightowl]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: nightowl
Dr Aquino is there a setian tarot available anywhere?

There have been several over the decades - some complete decks, some partial ones. But where things like the Tarot are concerned, there's a more central question where Black Magic is concerned. This article is a bit long, but addresses things like the Tarot in a general context:

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A., The Scroll of Set, August 1993
“OCCULTISM"

Over the last 27 years of the Æon of Set we have come a long way in terms of the occult arts and sciences. Much of our Church of Satan period was devoted to separating sense from nonsense - both in terms of old/traditional occultism and in the current context of pseudosciences and “new age” occult interests and fads. Whatever else may be said about him, Anton LaVey deserves credit for putting the torch to “occult” concepts that were nothing more than lingering relics from medieval nonsense - and looking instead for authentic and practical principles of a “hidden/forbidden” nature.

By X/1975 we had pretty much sorted through the “old” occult - at least within the Judæo/Christian tradition, which was conclusively exposed as nothing more than imperfect plagiarism from pre-existing Mediterranean religions and philosophies. Into the sewer it went in its entirety - save that we chose to use some of its “demonic” symbols for our own illustrative, artistic, or sometimes mischievously-entertaining purposes.

Here I should add that this was by no means a simple, one-time operation. Periodically we have had to re-flush the toilet because the contents of the bowl keep backing up. There are a few obvious reasons for this:

(1) The Temple of Set exists primarily in countries and cultures in which J/C is not only the dominant social religion, but also the tacitly-acknowledged basis for civic morality generally. Hence the prescriptions of the Enlightenment’s social-contract philosophers for some blend of pulp-feed Christianity as a way to keep the masses quiet and obedient.

(2) Persons who enter the Temple of Set generally come from some degree of J/C psychological conditioning in their youth and adulthood. They bring J/C values and precepts along with them, either consciously or unconsciously, either positively ["I don’t have to abandon all my good moral principles, do I?"] or negatively ["I can hardly wait to get into the Temple so I can get even with that hateful, hypocritical J/C which has wrecked my life to date!"]. Such persons tend to see the Temple of Set through J/C “glasses” and to conduct themselves within it accordingly.

(3) As a religion designed to appeal to and control stupid and/or uneducated people, J/C has the best “Marvel Comics” imagery. It is much easier and more emotionally gratifying to construct fantasies, art, and pageantry based upon the well-known “toons” of Satan, Jesus, JHVH and other J/C characters than upon Ahura Mazda, Quetzalcoatl, etc. And of course in dramatic relations with profane [J/C-trained] society, it is far easier to impress or shock someone by saying “I’m a Satanist” [which makes people scream and run] instead of saying “I’m a Quetzalcotalian” [which makes people just blink and stare].

So there are various reasons why all of us, myself included, tend to lapse into J/C imagery from time to time. It’s not a problem as long as we know what we’re doing and why, and don’t allow ourselves to be governed by it, either consciously or unconsciously.

Take Enochiana as an example. This was a system developed by John Dee based firmly on J/C imagery: angels, demons, and a Hebrew Cabalistic schematic of “creation”. If you believe in it as John Dee wrote it down, you’re a good little amateur Hebrew.

First Mathers, then Crowley, then LaVey saw it for what it was: a collection of confusing gobbledegook which they could reword here and there and use as an LBM device to impress their followers. And so it did. People would read the Satanic Bible and say of the first half, “Yeah, he’s got a point, but all this social critique stuff doesn’t look very ‘occult’ to me.” Then they’d reach the Enochian Keys, be properly mystified by both the Enochian and the English versions, and say, “Wow, this is spooky & weird stuff. Apparently he does know something ‘occult’ that the rest of us don’t.”

And of course the “Dumbo’s feather” principle [cf. Black Magic in the Crystal Tablet] applied beautifully. We dutifully used the Enochian Keys in C/S rituals and they did exactly what we expected them to do [i.e. what Anton said they would do!] without realizing that they held no intrinsic power at all, but instead served as “keys (apt name!) to unlock” certain dormant/latent powers within our own beings.

The Word of Set Working with the Keys was thus a “pure” working with them, in which the original Dee “Enochian” and “translations” were used as a “magical trigger” to get at a coherent reality underlying Dee’s J/C-filtered thoughts. [For a detailed discussion of the principles involved, see Plato’s Meno and other dialogues concerning the recollective basis of abstract knowledge (anamnesis).]

The same holds true for any other “system” of magic, whether a poem, painting, incantation, Tarot reading, I Ching wand-casting, or whatever: It is a “trigger” or “key” to unlock, inspire, or activate a certain power, level of consciousness, and/or mode of existence within yourself or others. Dumbo’s feather. As long as you understand this, you won’t go wrong with magic [or make a fool - or tool - of yourself].

At our present point in social time - the 1990s - what does it mean to be an “occultist”?

It should mean what it always has: to seek after, possess, and apply secret knowledge [for whatever purpose]. Think about that. Think about how you might go about doing it [and I’m not talking about going to the “New Age” section of your local bookstore].

Secret knowledge is either (a) stuff that exists but hasn’t been discovered or made coherent yet, or (b) stuff that exists but has been suppressed or distorted by people with the power to do so, because it conflicts with their interests. Sometimes occult knowledge is a mixture of both (a) and (b).

Books get on the Temple of Set’s reading list because they contain (a) or (b) information. But the reading list, like everything else about the Temple of Set, is a guide, a nudge in the right direction: a tool. You can find authentic occult knowledge almost anywhere - although never where the public is told that it exists. The occult knowledge in the AMORC, for instance, is not in the colorful show it presents to members through its ads, Egyptian buildings, etc. - but rather in the way that its owners use all such devices skillfully to accomplish their own goals of money, power, influence, and ego-gratification. [Complicating this example is the fact that AMORC leaders may be themselves wholly or partially under the illusion they have created for others.]

Reality within reality. This is why the Temple of Set is at once a simple thing [in that we have a commitment to speaking the truth plainly] and a complicated thing [in that simple truths, when examined carefully, often contain a sub-universe of factors which aren’t nearly so simple].

Another aspect of this: the role of “religion” in one’s intellectual state of being.
I see every letter that comes to the Executive Director requesting admission to the Temple of Set. Some are very impressive. Some include a comment something like this:

 Quote:
I was raised in Christianity but became disillusioned with it. So I tried Buddhism, Wicca, blah blah, and finally I found the Temple of Set, and this is clearly the religion for me!

That’s nice, but it implies that the Temple of Set occupies roughly the same niche in one’s mental makeup that the ding-dong religions did; we just do it better. Consider this:

The premise of all ding-dong religions is that you start with them and allow rational, logical, and scientific knowledge to “fill in the cracks” where they are conspicuously inadequate, or where their doctrines are at flagrant odds with common sense.

The Temple of Set is 180° away from this. To “do the Temple of Set right”, first you start with a sound rational, logical, and scientific knowledge base - both social and technical. You keep “religion” the hell out of this area [except in your analysis of social phenomena as a tool for popular control - see above].

Once you have explained everything you can using rational, logical, and scientific tools, and see that there are some things “left over”, then you are at the point where you need to construct a tool to (a) make those things comprehensible to you and (b) perhaps apply some of them to your interaction with existence. Then and only then should you bring the Temple of Set into your life.

Remember how we keep harping on the Temple of Set’s being only a tool? Well, this is when you apply that tool - to address those rarefied subjects that ordinary tools cannot.

“Metaphysical philosophy” (or GBM) is this tool used for understanding and analysis.

“Magic” (or LBM) is this tool used to affect your environment.

Because this is a realm of existence which is incompletely and imperfectly known, the tool to render it comprehensible and controllable is also imperfect. It works well in some ways, not so well in others. It also varies from individual to individual, from perspective to perspective, from perception to perception. This is why the “same” Temple of Set appears to be so many different things to different Setians.

Sum-up time:

(1) Recognize your pre-Setian conditioning for what it is, good or bad. Bring it to the surface. Keep the good [without apology for its source]. Chuck the bad.

(2) As a Setian, strive to control yourself for consciously, carefully, and deliberately-decided [by you!] reasons and goals.

(3) Be a real occultist.

I enjoy the Tarot as an artistic work. I have occasionally used it in GBM as a "mind trigger". In LBM I visit Renaissance Faires, borrow a "reader"'s Tarot deck, and use some stage-magic tricks (the kind normally used with ordinary decks) to produce jaw-dropping "magical" results. People are accustomed to tricks of mentalism with regular decks; they never expect Tarot decks to be manipulated thus. Try it on a neopagan sometime and watch the shock.

Here's an example, which you can do with either deck, though again people won't expect a "card trick" with the Tarot. You can spin this as "mind reading" or "mind control" (scarier!), and you can dress it up with ooga-booga as desired:

(1) Take a deck. Borrowing someone else's [e.g. at a Faire booth] is a nice touch and removes any suspicion that it is a "rigged" deck.

(2) Casually turn the deck face-up and with a little fingerwork while you're talking, find the 13th card from the bottom. Remember what it is.

(3) Now you can turn the deck face-down and make a show of shuffling and/or cutting it, but don't disturb the first 13 cards from the top. [The card you identified must remain the 13th-down from the face-down deck.]

(4) Hand the deck, face down to its owner, or any spectator. Tell him to think of any hour on the clock, then to put the deck behind his back and remove that many cards from the top and place them on the bottom, then hand the deck back to you.

(5) Do some ooga-booga. Hold the deck to your forehead, make mystical passes over it, sprinkle pixie dust on it, etc. This is important to keep everyone thinking "mysticism" and not "card trick".

(6) From the top of the face-down deck, build a clock face in descending order, e.g. 12, 11, 10, 9 ... ending at 1.

(7) More ooga-booga, please, as you resonate with the universal forces of time and space.

(8) The card you previously noted will be at the hour on the clock the person picked. Don't touch or call attention to the card, again avoiding any implication of a "card trick". Just reveal to the startled neopagan the hour he/she picked.

(9) Don't repeat this trick to the same audience, of course.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56541 - 07/04/11 01:29 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Oxus Offline
member


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 513
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage
 Originally Posted By: Oxus


I came to this forum to listen to Dr. Aquino's discussions regarding his tenure with the CoS and Satanism / Setian philosophies. I also desired to understand a bit more about Satanism.


Then it seems your in the wrong thread, no? Perhaps you should bounce out and let the grown-ups play or atleast contribute to the topic instead of narrating your position. Dr. Aquino has it under control and the topic seems to be un-veiling before us. So unless your gonna tag in to refresh mr. Aquino i suggest you tag out. Not to be rude but your late and have provided us with nothing but prior accounts. Im not saying it wasn't a great pleasure to hear your voice, but it would have resonated better elsewhere.

Perhaps you can send him a p.m. to fullfill those "desires"?
Thanks for the advice, but really, do you even know One thing about me? You are ASSuming quite a lot here. But, then again a noob as yourself needs to latch on to the presumed 'winning' team I would imagine.

Please don't direct your rabid dog attacks towards me when you have no idea where I'm coming from.

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#56542 - 07/04/11 01:49 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
nightowl Offline
Douchebag
stranger


Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage
 Originally Posted By: nightowl
Dr Aquino is there a setian tarot available anywhere?

Setians are eclectic in their systems of study and will use any available tools for divination.


I was thinking since it's an initiatory school they would have an initiatory tarot.
I rarely use tarot as a divination tool.

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#56555 - 07/05/11 04:28 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Oxus]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Oxus
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage
 Originally Posted By: Oxus


I came to this forum to listen to Dr. Aquino's discussions regarding his tenure with the CoS and Satanism / Setian philosophies. I also desired to understand a bit more about Satanism.


Then it seems your in the wrong thread, no? Perhaps you should bounce out and let the grown-ups play or atleast contribute to the topic instead of narrating your position. Dr. Aquino has it under control and the topic seems to be un-veiling before us. So unless your gonna tag in to refresh mr. Aquino i suggest you tag out. Not to be rude but your late and have provided us with nothing but prior accounts. Im not saying it wasn't a great pleasure to hear your voice, but it would have resonated better elsewhere.

Perhaps you can send him a p.m. to fullfill those "desires"?
Thanks for the advice, but really, do you even know One thing about me? You are ASSuming quite a lot here. But, then again a noob as yourself needs to latch on to the presumed 'winning' team I would imagine.

Please don't direct your rabid dog attacks towards me when you have no idea where I'm coming from.



You are sincerely welcome for such advice, this is coming from a 3 1/2 year member of the 600C. Unfortunately i had to re-register... did you say n00b?Lol... anyhow, ive not taken a side nor do i intend to, its not my gig. I run an Occult practice on my own time and have enough drama during our bi-weekly meetings.

However i do enjoy the read, that was until you came in swinging from the balls of Aquino with a knife between your teeth to provide nothing....you swung into the side of the ship instead of contributing. Actions speak louder than words my dear friend, this being said i dont need to ASSume anything,
you've shown enough in your post. You stated clearly where "your coming from" then tell us "we dont know where your coming from" really?

Winning? Realy...do you think this is about "winning." No one will win this debate for obvious reasons. Like i said son, you've provided enough without me know that "ONE" thing about you. Please not exploit me to no more. Lol "Winning?" *puts hand over face, bows out of thread*



Edited by Mister Cage (07/05/11 04:32 AM)

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#56582 - 07/06/11 06:59 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Oxus Offline
member


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 513
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage
 Originally Posted By: Oxus
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage
 Originally Posted By: Oxus


I came to this forum to listen to Dr. Aquino's discussions regarding his tenure with the CoS and Satanism / Setian philosophies. I also desired to understand a bit more about Satanism.


Then it seems your in the wrong thread, no? Perhaps you should bounce out and let the grown-ups play or atleast contribute to the topic instead of narrating your position. Dr. Aquino has it under control and the topic seems to be un-veiling before us. So unless your gonna tag in to refresh mr. Aquino i suggest you tag out. Not to be rude but your late and have provided us with nothing but prior accounts. Im not saying it wasn't a great pleasure to hear your voice, but it would have resonated better elsewhere.

Perhaps you can send him a p.m. to fullfill those "desires"?
Thanks for the advice, but really, do you even know One thing about me? You are ASSuming quite a lot here. But, then again a noob as yourself needs to latch on to the presumed 'winning' team I would imagine.

Please don't direct your rabid dog attacks towards me when you have no idea where I'm coming from.



You are sincerely welcome for such advice, this is coming from a 3 1/2 year member of the 600C. Unfortunately i had to re-register... did you say n00b?Lol... anyhow, ive not taken a side nor do i intend to, its not my gig. I run an Occult practice on my own time and have enough drama during our bi-weekly meetings.

However i do enjoy the read, that was until you came in swinging from the balls of Aquino with a knife between your teeth to provide nothing....you swung into the side of the ship instead of contributing. Actions speak louder than words my dear friend, this being said i dont need to ASSume anything,
you've shown enough in your post. You stated clearly where "your coming from" then tell us "we dont know where your coming from" really?

Winning? Realy...do you think this is about "winning." No one will win this debate for obvious reasons. Like i said son, you've provided enough without me know that "ONE" thing about you. Please not exploit me to no more. Lol "Winning?" *puts hand over face, bows out of thread*

Not that I wish to go around and around with you over this we all have better things to do, but I am in the correct thread concerning my comments, don't know why you would think otherwise.

I will agree with you that next time I chime in I could 'contribute' to the thread instead of just bitch.

As for 'winning' keep it in context, I said 'winning TEAM"
do you understand the overall concept I am attempting to impart to you?

As for the 'Son' comment, I'm probably old enough to be your Father if not Grandfather . . . lol.

We all know Dr. Aquino doesn't need any help, certainly not from me, I was simply implying that it is getting tiring to read endless bash after bash on almost every thread in which He posts on, makes one think there is some kind of psychological agenda going on?

That said, I enjoy reading the posts & threads, I like being here, and regardless of a select 'few' I disdain, I do truly enjoy what everyone has to say.

Sorry I am way off topic, but I usually just lurk, though this time felt the need for a slight protest.


Edited by Oxus (07/06/11 07:02 PM)

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#56596 - 07/07/11 06:50 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Oxus]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Oxus
We all know Dr. Aquino doesn't need any help, certainly not from me, I was simply implying that it is getting tiring to read endless bash after bash on almost every thread in which He posts on, makes one think there is some kind of psychological agenda going on?


It was probably some subconscious slip but "He" did make me laugh quite hard. Let's hope it wasn't intended as such.

D.

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#56623 - 07/07/11 10:36 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Diavolo]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
@OXUS

You state in your first paragraph that you have better things to do than explain your position. Then write 10 paragraphs about "nothing" contributing to the topic, "again". Once all this useless jargon is threaded you state in your last paragraph you have better things to do, then harbor the audacity to apologize for "having to protest your position"... BUT, you "have better things to do than protesting your position" ...really? do ya? Lol....like LaVey said...its to bad stupidity isn't painful.

Anyhow, Im done with this useless dialog. Plain and soooo simple, you are in the wrong thread to fullfill your initial Aquino desires. Pathetic. Dont bother to reply simply because im bowing out.


Edited by Mister Cage (07/07/11 10:45 PM)

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#56624 - 07/07/11 11:27 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Mister Cage]
Oxus Offline
member


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 513
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage
@OXUS

You state in your first paragraph that you have better things to do than explain your position. Then write 10 paragraphs about "nothing" contributing to the topic, "again". Once all this useless jargon is threaded you state in your last paragraph you have better things to do, then harbor the audacity to apologize for "having to protest your position"... BUT, you "have better things to do than protesting your position" ...really? do ya? Lol....like LaVey said...its to bad stupidity isn't painful.

Anyhow, Im done with this useless dialog. Plain and soooo simple, you are in the wrong thread to fullfill your initial Aquino desires. Pathetic. Dont bother to reply simply because im bowing out.
The problem here is that no one really reads what is posted, they are too involved with intellectual sparring and just spewing forth their mental cud.

I said . . . "WE all have better things to do" and within context (another shortsightedness that seems to be a problem with some here) it doesn't speak in the context you have portrayed it in.

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#57927 - 08/03/11 08:20 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
LawNine99 Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 6
a great satanic leader should be realistic with his life and the reality of the situation at hand regardless of ones social stature. As long as the goals you set forth are realistic and your moving forward with them and not *waiting* for them then really your self satisfaction should be enough. if your going to work at wall mart least end up running the store that would be the satanic view point that's where the recognition of ones goals have been accomplished while working withing the reality of what ones capable of doing. just cause someone else is in a *higher stature* and your not does not mean hes just as happy as you are. all in perception.
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#57993 - 08/06/11 09:10 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Empire of Dread
This also includes gaining a lot of power and money, otherwise in my view your are lying to yourself. For example if you work at your local Walmart or whatever, this is not really satanic for me, as you are on the lowest level and havent reached anything, but if you run your own business and make shit loads of money, we are getting closer to my definition. So what is your take ?

I am teacher in one local school and I do my teachers work all my adult life, from age 18. I'm happy, I do what I like and what I can do good. I don't earn much money. I am individualist and not legalistic. If you as Satanist are satisfied with position, which you have, why - not stay in this position?

I tried to work in ministry of education and I earned more and had more power, but I stopped - I lost my independence, my creativity, my indulgence, which I had with my pupils as teacher. I returned in the school. I am completely independent as teacher and I am in my classroom like a king of small country. I am the first there and I feel good there, I do my teaching with indulgence.

I tried some other jobs, where I can earn more, but there I felt bad, because of subordinations etc... Every Satanist is individual and everyone has to find his place. Very important for me is to be honest with myself. Maybe it’s other thing, but I am family man and I am faithful to my wife. I am fully satisfied and happy wiht my wife, I don’t want to have sex with someone else. Every Satanist has to live life, which fits him the best.

In my country, in Latvia we say – it’s better to be the first person in the village as the last one in the town. I am Satanist and I feel good in my local school.
_________________________
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#77799 - 07/06/13 09:31 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
This is where I run into rocky ground with modern Satanism. To me the idea of just being 'successful', within the system, has very little to do with Satanism itself. Satanism is 'activity', ie, becoming the adversary to the bullshit thrown before us. Claiming that comes part and parcel with mandatory participation in the very thing 'Satan'(insofar as 'he' is relevant to me at least) stands against is pretty counter intuitive.

The idea of being a housepet of society while taking the devils name reeks of hypocrisy to me. That is not to say there is anything wrong with living well, just that defining yourself by their standards is playing their game.


9 pages of reading and this small paragraph sums it up rather nicely. Thank you Mr. Dread

If there has ever been a topic here on 600 that needed Admin moderation, it was this one. Sheesh.

I realize many of these topics are rather old but time and time again I bump into topics that tend to degenerate into yet another Satanism/Setian quagmire whenever Aquino comments.

Added to my repertoire of real life achievements is making it to the ignore list for the same reasons espoused by users on this thread (Diavolo eloquently simplified the algorithm for readers, thank you). Check.

When it comes to living well, I have observed that some Satanists tend to start comparing material attainment. Not much different than a Cock Fight. It's too bad they don't realize they are still kept-animals in a pen and the bet is on the Cock-owner, not the Cock. Who owns your Cock?

When power is marginalized in such a way, the Devil in me bucks. I can't help but call Bullshit on the whole thing as a ruse. While we each have our own Aspirations, I don't think reducing it to the Aspiration itself is quite Satanic from the word go. If one aspires to be nothing more than a slave...Well? It really gets to the crux of the matter doesn't it? Slavery comes in many forms to include being bound in chains by ideas.

Provided you don't put a gun to your head today, each day is lived, and being alive isn't really an accomplishment is it? We find a way to get our basic needs met (Food, Shelter, Clothing) but its far more than that in terms of achievement. How did you get from A to B (and is B desired and worth enduring)? The achievement isn't really collecting things, it's the day to day bucking against the systems of control to be more than just subordinate.

The peer-group mindset is another one that makes my skin crawl. Seriously, what freedom can be attained by checking yourself against the thoughts of lemmings?

I tend to measure against tried and true methods such as forming a Hypothesis, Experimenting, and Analyzing Results. While peer-review can serve a purpose for perspective, I doubt any person could have lived a day in my shoes and have arrived at my point B. This leads me back to the standard for measuring achievements. I couldn't care less if another person considers me an achiever. As an individual, the group think is rendered irrelevant. The same would be true for another person's life. Give me your life on a platter and I'm sure I'd find a dozen ways to live it differently.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#78142 - 07/16/13 11:36 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
This topic came to mind when reading a post (written for my benefit) on a new blogger site: Satanic Views (not to be confused with Damon Foster's Satanic Views series).

Topics such as these seem to surface on the regular, whether on forums, social networks or some anonymous user reporting on 'Satanic Issues' on their personal blogs.

Flame-baiting is rather commonplace and familiar to any long-term user of the Internet, many fall subject to it even if they really believe they have the upper-hand.

The author of the blog subscribed to me on Twitter. I spent a little time reading the blogs on the Wordpress site. I know this 'type', quite familiar with it actually. So I liked a few blogs to draw attention to the idea that I was reading them. As expected, the author subscribed to my own Wordpress. The blogs continued, I speculate a lot of the subject matter comes from Facebook activity. It seems to feature many of the personalities from the Occult/Satanic groups and networks. I deleted my account there a year ago but I'm quite familiar with the user names the author is writing about.

I lurk, and observe. A few days pass, so after laying down a few bread-crumbs, I threw down the Bait. It didn't take long, there it is... A blog on Satanic Legitimacy with my name (and blog) featured.

 Quote:
Anything goes, anyone can claim anything they want to be on the internet. The internet is fantasy land, with most Satanic groups run by fake anonymous faces with a need for validation. If the Satanist wants to share their personal outlook with like-minded people, then the best route is one that is set in the real world rather than the cyber-world of make-believe.


Like shooting fish in a barrel. It's not as if in the 'real world', I'm not sitting here with my laptop having a bit of fun at this guy's expense.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#78264 - 07/20/13 05:57 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
'Real life achievement' is a key part of Satanism for me, with pursuing personal goals, however it seems a lot of people don't define what success or achievement is for themselves, and just go by what society says.

For many, there seems to be a strong emphasis on material success, and the idea that the only real success is material is often promoted even by Satanists. This however, is basically saying that society's opinion defines your worth as an individual. Society decides what achievements should earn you what amount of money, thus judging success in a material sense is using the opinion of society, rather than a factual basis.

A lot of individuals seem to think they have to be viewed as a 'winner' in society, and need others to tell them if they are successful. Satanism however, by it's very meaning is contradictory to this line of thinking. Being 'self-sufficient' regarding your self-worth is a better way to go.

A problem for some, is how to judge success if not by society's standards, the simple solution is, find a factual basis from which to judge your abilities. Using facts is the key to not needing others opinions, and still dealing with truth. In a sense, let your body of work speak for itself instead of letting others tell you how good you are. The methods of judgment, depend on the area your looking to succeed in. It doesn't have to be a career, you may have skills that earn you no money at all, it doesn't make an achievement any less impressive.

I don't think it contradicts the idea of 'Satanism' to pursue a goal that society highly values, will get you a lot of material gain etc., because freedom is a key part. I only find it contradictory to actually need society's approval/respect to validate yourself.

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#78265 - 07/20/13 07:05 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
If you aren't your own boss, your boss owns your cock. If you are your own boss, your clients own your cock. If your unemployed, your cock is owned by financial limitation. In a sense, that's the way of the world when you dissect it. We are all slaves to either other individuals, or by the limitations caused from removing whatever need we have from them. To succeed in most areas, you are somewhat dependent on others. When I play football, while I have great control over my own success, I still need other players both to want to compete against me if I want to test my skills, and to train with to attain and keep them. To remove all dependence, I'd be limited to not playing.

There are however, different degrees to which a person is a slave to others. To me, it only becomes a problem When you need the approval to validate yourself, or you are letting others make decisions for you regarding things that matter to you. That, or when you are just going by what others say, instead of deciding your opinions for yourself regarding something you care about.

Regarding peer review, I actually am skeptical as to the benefits of it as well. It is really only beneficial if you are given sound advice on HOW to actually improve your abilities, rather than just being told what they are. Unless they are new in entering a field, most people are aware of where they are at in terms of ability. I don’t like to go on the opinion of a peer to judge myself either, a factual measure is a much more sound way to go. Test yourself, learn how to assess yourself, and make an analysis based on the results of the test. While it does feel good to have the respect of peers, it shouldn’t be the basis of your self-assessment, if your looking for the method that gives you the most independence and accuracy.

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#78269 - 07/20/13 09:59 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
Precisely.

At the core, we want. We each have desires, aspirations, goals, etc. and this gets down to the brass tacks of how we attain them. In relation to 'Satanism', this deals with methods of approach.

Many regard Satanism as a Philosophy or even a Religion, I never have. For me, it's always been method. Some choose to minimize it to an adversarial force but that's just the tip of the iceberg and while the glacier appears to move slowly, the vast body beneath can sink the Titanic.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#78274 - 07/20/13 11:22 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Kemble Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 139
Method -- that's a great way to put it. Would you say Satanism helps you as a method to inhibit old social and/or cultural habits that originally displaced your autonomy and value as an individual, and replace it with a newer sense of direction towards your desires in life? Sort of bringing you a framework to be able to do much more constructive messin' around in your life.
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#78276 - 07/20/13 11:38 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Kemble]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
Would you say Satanism helps you as a method to inhibit old social and/or cultural habits that originally displaced your autonomy and value as an individual, and replace it with a newer sense of direction towards your desires in life?


'Satanism' is just a label for an approach I have always employed, it's not something you learn through reading a few books penned by a sordid character, as would be the case by viewing it as LaVey as a basis by society at large. The proverbial 'Hand-book' as it were.

LaVey spoke of the premise of 'Born, Not Made' and I have always understood this to mean that you were doing this sort of thing anyway, why not call it 'Satanism' to incite provocation?
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#78350 - 07/21/13 06:44 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
Johnny D. Offline
lurker


Registered: 06/25/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Indiana
I've tried tried to remove the concept of success from my values for two reasons. First, it's backwards looking; I can't claim success for deeds I haven't yet done. Second, I find it difficult to rid the term of society's expectations. Success remains the gold star They give me when I've pleased Them.

My project involves developing self-knowledge and self-empowerment by placing value on the individual over the collective. This is not a backward-looking project, but a forward-looking one; it unfolds continuously. And concentrating on the individual requires me to reject collective badges of approval like “success.” Concentrating on my individual nature I've learned that I necessarily create values that society disapproves, sometimes with extreme prejudice. It seems to be the nature of the beast. Trying to measure my realization of these values against a loaded term like “success” only frustrates me.

So I've (somewhat) successfully dropped the term from my expedients.

Cheers
_________________________
JD

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#78356 - 07/21/13 09:08 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Johnny D.]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Success remains the gold star They give me when I've pleased Them.

Such a simple concept yet such untraversable terrain for so many.

Welcome to the club, new guy. You should stick around.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#78357 - 07/21/13 10:30 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
Le Deluge Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
Ah shit. I hear ya JD. We're in the same profession. They throw us a few titles to put after our name + keep the coin in our accounts. Beyond that, it is about what *I* consider an achievement. I set the goal, visualize it, and make it happen. That isn't to say there is nothing within the profession that meets my criteria. It is just incredibly rare. I'd rather scale a cliff. I eat from "their" trough sparingly and knowing that is all I'm doing.
_________________________
Apres Moi ... Le Deluge

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#78367 - 07/22/13 04:34 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Johnny D.]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
Welcome to the board.

Your problem is as you said, the difficulty you have with disassociating personal success with society's expectations. However, you should not close the door on it just because of that. Part of self-empowerment, is the ability to determine what success is for yourself, and judge yourself by that standard regardless of what others say.

Success doesn't have to be a badge of approval, or a gold star so to speak from others. If you do it for the sake of pride in your own abilities, it becomes very personal. An individual focus would cause you to reject shaping goals around society's view of success, however you would still look to succeed based on your own view of success. Seek those who want what you have, to find an avenue where you can pursue your goal.

To judge your success, allow your body of work to speak for itself. When I play football, I determine my success by how I do in my 1 on 1s running the ball, it's just about me versus my opponent. I look at the game the opponent brought, to judge the competition level, and how I performed against it. That is the factual basis of judgment, blocking out how much others value it. Each coach has their style, some may like my style of play, others may not. The key for me is, finding a coach that likes it.

Looking at your profile, your an attorney. In a sense, people just value getting the result they want in the law profession. They praise you for a win that was not based on your ability, and punish you for a loss that was not based on your incompetence. In your case, you'd judge your own merit by your knowledge of law, and ability to construct good legal arguments. Pleasing your boss would only be a concern to the point of self-preservation(keeping your job)but not to the point of judging yourself by their opinion of you. What kind of attorney are you by the way?

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#78370 - 07/22/13 05:09 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Le Deluge]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
 Originally Posted By: Le Deluge
Ah shit. I hear ya JD. We're in the same profession. They throw us a few titles to put after our name + keep the coin in our accounts. Beyond that, it is about what *I* consider an achievement. I set the goal, visualize it, and make it happen. That isn't to say there is nothing within the profession that meets my criteria. It is just incredibly rare. I'd rather scale a cliff. I eat from "their" trough sparingly and knowing that is all I'm doing.


In essence, this is what is needed to take control of your own personal goals. That, and the ability to assess yourself. At times, your goals will be what others value, and it's perfectly fine to be on the same page, as long as your not defining success based on what others value. If you can find one, you'd seek a place with similar goals to yours, that puts value on what you value.

So your an attorney? What kind of attorney are you? I'm interested in how you judge your success. Do you basically find a way to measure your own ability, and seek out a goal that is a display of it? As I mentioned above, your basically in a world where your bosses would care only about the results. There are however, so many factors out of your control that go into a result than an attorney's own competence.

If your a defense attorney, you have the jury, the judge and your client. If your client is a moron, it's not your fault. The prosecution may have them clear on tape committing the crime, then all you can do is a last resort 'not responsible' defense which from what I know seldom works. Each side has to present a sound argument for their case regarding trial motions for the judge, however the judge’s personal views are going to dictate it. Some judges were ex-prosecutors who favor the prosecution, some are strong ACLU supporters who favor defense lawyers more and etc. Juries play a role in it as well of course, with their own judgment.

If a boss punishes a lawyer for a loss that is not their fault, or gives too much reward for a win that was fairly easy to come by, it is likely their firm will not have much success. If someone feels inadequate or incompetent over things that really are not measures of their own adequacy, your just causing yourself unnecessary suffering. On the flip side, if you are making too much out of successes that really were not due to your own ability, then in my opinion your just lying to yourself. Neither of those things serve an individual well.


Edited by 334forwardspin (07/22/13 05:11 AM)

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#78372 - 07/22/13 05:42 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia

In terms of being successful in your career there's an element that is often glossed over, being the host for parasites. People latch on to you because you do well, have the right tool-set, demonstrable results of success and then you become the 'go-to' guy for just about everything. I mean, who seeks out a failure?
In essence what you've achieved is being a lap-dog that attracts fleas.

 Quote:
Beyond that, it is about what *I* consider an achievement. I set the goal, visualize it, and make it happen.


^THIS.

Some people have some weird ideas about what each of us should be achieving, striving for, etc.

Maybe it's just an approach to tasks. I know for me, I like to work smarter, not harder. Not that I shy away from hard work but why run myself ragged while running in circles when I can work on my personal efficiency?
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#78384 - 07/22/13 05:09 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
Johnny D. Offline
lurker


Registered: 06/25/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Indiana
After I free myself from society's expectations, the next question is how do I know I'm on the right path to accomplish my goals? I establish my own criteria, set my own benchmarks and judge when I've passed my next mile marker. I'm in agreement with Le Deluge and 334forwardspin on this. I strive for sovereignty over my own thoughts and values, and that's what I meant to imply with my remark about the gold stars. But I also strive for greater purpose and meaning, and to my mind, that's a forward-looking (and open-ended) process that requires me to turn my back on the things I've deemed myself to have accomplished, and instead try to imagine what's possible.

There are parasites in my life, true, but the ones sucking my blood are the ordinary vermin known as banks and financial institutions. I can’t say they are a symptom of success by any definition--probably just the opposite. Personal bloodsuckers don't trouble me; the trick is not to let them attach to start with. I carry a can of psychic Off! that repels sycophants and beggars.

On success and the law, my cases are civil (as opposed to criminal), my clients are institutional, and I fight about money on their behalf. They may judge success by winning or losing, but I tell them they're foolish if they do. I get paid win, lose, or settle. I win no matter what. Their only guarantee is that two parties walk into court, and one walks out bitterly disappointed. I tell them a successful client is one that takes control of destiny and settles its beef with the other party on terms that both can live with. In that small way, I try to impart the value of self-empowerment to others within my professional sphere. But for the most part, I concentrate on my personal path. Lawyer is what I dress as for society's Halloween party.

Cheers
_________________________
JD

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#78385 - 07/22/13 05:11 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Maybe it's just an approach to tasks. I know for me, I like to work smarter, not harder. Not that I shy away from hard work but why run myself ragged while running in circles when I can work on my personal efficiency?


Definitely. I first remember hearing "Work smarter, not harder" from my 8th Grade Science Teacher. I'm an odd duck as far as this profession goes. I went to law school later than most. After I graduated, I picked up a series of public policy gigs. I also ended up with an LLM in Public Policy. I definitely felt some of the frustration you mentioned. It wasn't necessarily an attraction of parasites, it was just the lack of tangible results.

At present: My last "job" was temporal. We had three estates to close. This took about 2 months. We were able to avoid formal probate in two cases. The third is still pending. I do have the option of going into estate planning, but I have no intention of doing so at present.

In answer to the previous question: I'm not a trial attorney. I have assisted with criminal cases, but my "boss" was my uncle and friend. I suspect, over time, I will take over my Uncle's firm. The hours I'd be willing to put in are minimal. I simply don't need the big coin or profile that he obtained at an earlier point in his career.

In esssence: I am a free agent. I write my own ticket. 2014 will probably entail politics. 2015 will be the choice to continue my uncle's practice or set sail elsewhere.

How do I measure success in law? I really don't. I have other pursuits that came to mean more. This became manifest very quickly. Sure, I do take some pride in my ability to apply the law. I certainly enjoy continuing to study law in many ways. Beyond that, I feel like I'm taking up a series of acting gigs. One may occasionally come to have deeper meaning. Most will not.




_________________________
Apres Moi ... Le Deluge

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#78392 - 07/22/13 06:41 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Le Deluge]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
Work smarter not harder is essentially the mentality that is necessary for success. I agree with the point made about not shying away from hard work, but if there is an easier way then why not take it?

When I'm trying to improve my skills, I'm always looking for the most effective method, and to get the most out of each session of work I do. The person who figures out superior methods to improve their skills, or is looking for an unconventional way to get the edge is the one who is most likely to become successful.

Surprisingly enough though, I've never really had that point emphasized to me by anyone. A lot of people seem to view this as a 'cop out' and think that avoiding a conventional and more difficult way is not an option. These people however, are rewarded only with less success, and more work.

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#78409 - 07/22/13 10:47 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Johnny D.]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
After I free myself from society's expectations,


Can you be more specific? What does society expect from you, and why aren't you free of it now?
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#78410 - 07/22/13 10:55 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I definitely felt some of the frustration you mentioned. It wasn't necessarily an attraction of parasites, it was just the lack of tangible results.


I can understand, to a degree, the people that 'fake' failure, so that people don't seek them out to solve their problems, the source for all knowledge, and the go-to guy for medial tasks.

It makes me think of some old married couples. The husband pretends he can't fix things around the house, so his 'honey do' list doesn't grow and grow, so he can enjoy his off-time. He works hard all week so he can just pay some guy to fix all those little things around the house. Or the Wife that pretends she's not a fantastic baker so her husband doesn't constantly request to make that (3) hour dessert.

Don't be 'that guy' at the office. He's usually the person that believed he would get extra perks for biting off more he can chew, only to have the rest of the office shoveling more onto his plate.
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#78412 - 07/22/13 11:10 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
 Quote:
I definitely felt some of the frustration you mentioned. It wasn't necessarily an attraction of parasites, it was just the lack of tangible results.


I can understand, to a degree, the people that 'fake' failure, so that people don't seek them out to solve their problems, the source for all knowledge, and the go-to guy for medial tasks.


Oh nah. It really had nothing to do with the strengths and weaknesses of my colleagues. The only frustration I felt involved political exigencies. Our work product was solid. Public policy is actually very interesting. The inertia in state government is quite impressive though as well. I wouldn't rule out working in it again under the right circumstances. It just isn't a necessity that I do so.
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#78413 - 07/22/13 11:15 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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I wasn't needling you on this, just a general comment in terms of how these things tend to happen when a person is deemed 'successful' in their work, or have certain skills.
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#78414 - 07/22/13 11:18 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I wasn't needling you on this, just a general comment in terms of how these things tend to happen when a person is deemed 'successful' in their work, or have certain skills.


Oh, I know. The whole teamwork thing itself can become annoying. Collaboration is fine, but it can definitely end up the way you mention.
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#78415 - 07/23/13 12:05 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Johnny D.]
334forwardspin Offline
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People will often make it seem as though if you feel successful without others telling you that you are, your deluding yourself. However, the real person deluding themselves is the one who believes that someone is not successful unless they say so.

Unless your actually making yourself believe you have abilities that you don't have, then you are still dealing with truth.

As a civil attorney, your often dealing with people who have zero sense of personal accountability and responsibility. You are encouraging your clients to take responsibility for their lives, and giving truth to people who don't like the truth. People will often sue others, for things that are their own fault. Naturally with their mentality, they will blame everyone but themselves when they don't get a pay day for their own irresponsibility. The system, the judge, or their lawyer. Frankly, I don't know how you can tolerate those people's presence lol.

I presume for you, that people who will blame you for what is not your fault are just a means to an end. You tolerate their presence, to get a pay day.

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#78420 - 07/23/13 04:04 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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[quick reply]
What strikes me most during this thread is the focus on personal achievements as there is a willful striving for not wanting to comply to societies standards... yet there's a failure to notice the dependency on society and its standards. Brain farts much.

When talking about achievements I prefer it to have a societal impact (be it good or bad) which induces change or can be recognized as an "exceptional" feat. All other things can easily be recognized as a simple compliance towards societies expectations despite it being motivated by "selfish" reasons.

Success, in my opinion, is best valued by others by reason it's a diverse and often more critical group. It's also that same group from which is being networked and stands as "independent" to make better assessments. A deformed person can belief and state as much as he wants (s)he's the prettiest/hottest/most beautiful on earth, but taking a step out of his/her front door and receiving those "weird looks" (and even an insult or hurtful comment) will soon pop the bubble. While Satanism is often associated with counter-cultural, more than often is there a failure to notice that in order to be "counter-cultural" the culture must be known first and then acted against it accordingly. In essence, counter-culture still being ruled by what the status-quo (dis)agrees with.

Freedom of society's expectation is but a mere illusion. There's only 2 ways to go. Or you don't live up and make part of the marginalized, or live up, push ever forward and become part of those few who decide the expectations (which frequently means leaving the comfort zone and means learning to cope with those "parasites"). I prefer the latter seeing it is more empowering and involves pushing the boundaries of imposed expectations.

On a closing note, I loather the proverb of "work smart, not hard". Any successful person will tell you both (smart and hard) are equally needed. The ability to recognize the need for one , or both, in situations even more so.
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#78422 - 07/23/13 05:48 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
[quick reply]
What strikes me most during this thread is the focus on personal achievements as there is a willful striving for not wanting to comply to societies standards... yet there's a failure to notice the dependency on society and its standards. Brain farts much.


Generally when speaking of professions, the people holding the discussion are well aware that said professions occur within a given society. That is a given which need not be mentioned.

Societal standards and expectations would require definition on your part. I think you get out roughly what you put in. The term being used is actually "Work Smarter, Not Harder." The implication is certainly not to slack. It is simply to work in as focused and effective way as possible. It is generally a cautionary tale you'd hear growing up here.

I'm also curious what *your* definition of success is. I don't believe it requires external validation. I suppose as a scientist, you are subject to a peer review process. Beyond that?

I would agree with you that actual freedom from society proper is difficult. Some people do come close. I would see an individual living entirely off the land as a possible example.
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#78425 - 07/23/13 09:48 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
Brain farts much.


Indeed. Begs to question your comprehension of what is being discussed here.
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#78426 - 07/23/13 09:59 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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I'm reminded of a well-known trial attorney in our local area. He was able to charge upwards of $500 per billing hour because of his reputation, which wasn't without merit. I hired him a couple of times myself. You could damn near get away with murder with he as your Defense Attorney.

He was getting on in age, and retired leaving the practice to his only son. That guy. My gawd. He was riding his Father's reputation and not much else. One of my cases was picked up by him, and I ended up holding him responsible for his non-action, and just being an all around douche for believing he had even a spark of his Father's fire. I got a full refund of my Retainer to boot.

I suspect he had some form of ADD, he was disorganized, absent minded, late for appointments and even court. He often got a talking to by the Judge. I'd consider him an embarrassment to his Father's Street Cred. His Father's practice picked up a few Partners and without them, thing would have gone down the tubes. I honestly don't know how he was able to continue practicing Law.
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#78427 - 07/23/13 10:19 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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[quick reply]
I define success by (maintaining) global appreciation and the opened possibilities for further progression. All else are just achievements by compliance towards expectations. It's not only in science where external validation is required. It's about everywhere as a constant striving to remain "on top" should be ingrained in (work)attitude. Trying to keep on pushing the boundaries by the best *you* can offer.

 Quote:
Indeed. Begs to question your comprehension of what is being discussed here.

I believe I made a fair assessment of the discussion. Unlike you I prefer not justify myself by discussing irrelevant aspects of others and prefer to address the topics at hand directly. Perhaps that's the reason why your personality amounted to pretty much nothing here (except some raised activity).
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#78429 - 07/23/13 10:45 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
I believe I made a fair assessment of the discussion. Unlike you I prefer not justify myself by discussing irrelevant aspects of others and prefer to address the topics at hand directly. Perhaps that's the reason why your personality amounted to pretty much nothing here (except some raised activity).


I'm sure you really do believe that. Pretty self-evident.

You don't appear to understand the concept of working smarter not harder, this is what I'm questioning. Save the Ad Homs, they are unbecoming of you.
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#78452 - 07/23/13 06:21 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

I define success by (maintaining) global appreciation and the opened possibilities for further progression. All else are just achievements by compliance towards expectations. It's not only in science where external validation is required. It's about everywhere as a constant striving to remain "on top" should be ingrained in (work)attitude. Trying to keep on pushing the boundaries by the best *you* can offer.


Oh definitely. I think we've spoken to the topic before. My intent was to respond to a specific poster. He seemed a bit disenchanted with the profession. Bout it. I never really had time to subsequently address the OP. For me, I need the trust/respect of colleagues and clients. Beyond that, I don't see the way this topic is framed as terribly constructive. It almost begs a series of questions that are mostly irrelevant.
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#78460 - 07/24/13 04:51 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
334forwardspin Offline
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It pretty much goes without saying that jobs, competitions etc. all involve other people, and most personal achievements are somewhat dependent on others. The point I was making is that society's standards are not the way I personally define success. There is a big difference in recognizing that you are somewhat dependent on others, and needing validation from others to feel like you have accomplished something.

Your example about someone thinking they are beautiful doesn't really apply here, because that really is a purely subjective matter. It would be delusional for that person to think MOST PEOPLE find them attractive, but that would be different.

I find a factually based method for judging personal achievement much better than the opinion of others, or the value they place on my accomplishments. When you start focusing on the impact it has on the world, or the value it has to others you are focusing less on your individual abilities, which hurts bettering yourself. A better way, is to simply find a way to judge your abilities(based on your own goals), and use that method to validate your accomplishments. That way, your body of work speaks for itself, and then why do you need validation from others? Personal knowledge of your field will help you know how to assess yourself.

You are a scientist, correct? Say you research a topic, make a brilliant discovery, and become one of the most well versed people in the world on your chosen topic. However, people aren't interested in your research, and decide to label you a 'nobody'. It seems asinine, especially for a Satanist to decide in that situation that they didn't accomplish anything just because others(many of whom have accomplished very little)don't think highly of it. It also goes against the scientific mentality to value opinions over facts.

What you said about counter-culture and Satanism is exactly why I find the mentality of doing what you do regardless of society's approval much better than trying to be the opposite of society. I mentioned this in another thread as an example: In Satanism, revenge is advocated. In modern society, not getting revenge is seen as a 'moral high road'. In other societies however, such as Viking society, not getting revenge just made you viewed as a pussy. By this logic, a Satanist in Viking society would have to then view revenge in a negative light.

Regarding work smarter not harder, you misunderstand what it means. It does not mean shy away from hard work, or that hard work is not important. What it means is that use smarter, more efficient methods instead of harder, less effective methods. Hard work is important, and lazy people will usually not achieve much. However, superior methods you use to improve your skills, or finding unconventional tactics to get the edge seem to be the biggest things that lead someone to the top of their field, in my experience. It does vary from field to field though.

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#78461 - 07/24/13 05:42 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
Your example about someone thinking they are beautiful doesn't really apply here, because that really is a purely subjective matter. It would be delusional for that person to think MOST PEOPLE find them attractive, but that would be different.

It actually is a small step to draw a correlation towards defining success. Whereas you (and other dimwits) are promoting a view where personal achievements are prime and define success, I promote a view where yours is but a compliance towards mundane standards and is but all what should be labeled success. I'm not talking about the need of validation. I'm talking validation of and by society by going above their expected standards to the extend of positioning (yourself above) and deciding what the standards are (to society).

While the general theme, or core praxis to many, involves a progressive attitude for/towards self-betterment (and ultimately success/recognition in mind...which is seldom voiced but (un)consciously craved for..) it stands to notice that many of such achievements are really nothing more than compliance towards pretty mundane social standards. Most of the time dressed up as "exceptional" in a real "I-want-to-be-special-ism" style.

Perhaps, my dear, it is time for you to start reading instead of making long-winded posts devoid of meaning and littered with asinine and misunderstood crap.


Edited by Dimitri (07/24/13 05:44 AM)
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#78465 - 07/24/13 09:43 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
There's only 2 ways to go. Or you don't live up and make part of the marginalized, or live up, push ever forward and become part of those few who decide the expectations (which frequently means leaving the comfort zone and means learning to cope with those "parasites"). I prefer the latter seeing it is more empowering and involves pushing the boundaries of imposed expectations.


There are various contexts being discussed here, there is no singularity of Success and Real Live achievements.

The point in using the parasite analogy seems to have been missed. In working Smarter not Harder, you can avoid being the host for Parasites in the first place. In this context, it's not just coping with parasites, it's managing the current of parasitic people and guiding them elsewhere.

Your analogy using a person with a deformity seems to have missed an important element. A person empowered by their own self-worth (regardless if Society deems them a freak) will go on to pursue their goals with self-confidence and Lookism be damned (i.e. Stephen Hawking). That should be rather self-evident by the number of people that do not fit the model of 'Pretty to look at', and go on to be quite successful people, to include attracting loved ones to their sphere of existence. Case in point, LaVey wasn't exactly a looker, had busted teeth and poor hygiene and yet, attracted many people to his world.

In comparison to the number of people in the Wide World that he could have attracted, it's still a fairly small number. Should he then be considered a complete failure by that standard? If we are to measure the success of swinging a hammer against Culture, how much has it really changed in the last 50 Years because of his efforts? Should that be the end-goal for each individual Satanist?
 Quote:
Whereas you (and other dimwits) are promoting a view where personal achievements are prime and define success, I promote a view where yours is but a compliance towards mundane standards and is but all what should be labeled success. I'm not talking about the need of validation. I'm talking validation of and by society by going above their expected standards to the extend of positioning (yourself above) and deciding what the standards are (to society).


Talk about dim-witted, in exceeding these societal standards should every 'Satanist' then be pursuing celebrity and public faire? Carrying a torch? To be a counter-culturist out there with their cape on trying to save the world from their own compliance of living within Nomos? White-Knightism? Mirroring the One?

In extending yourself above, this deals directly with individualism and personhood. Not Mimicry and compliance to yet another set of social standards.

Adding yet another context to the discussion:
I have it on good authority that individuals aren't exactly making a lot of noise about their own elevations because they are not law-abiding, compliant, nor seeking to draw attention to themselves. Many are perfectly content disregard Gold Stars in favor of personal achievement. Oh wait... I forgot. Satanists are 'Good Guys' and don't break the Law.
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#78466 - 07/24/13 10:38 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Perhaps that's the reason why your personality amounted to pretty much nothing here (except some raised activity).


Personal slights seldom make ones arguments more effective. Besides, we don't do that here as a general rule... you know this.
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#78467 - 07/24/13 11:34 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Success is easy enough to understand, unless exaggerated suitheism enters the picture which will automatically result in a game of semantics in order to justify (and trying to make fit) the own persona as "successful". It's easy really, an achievement is just something you managed to do whereas success is the general appraisal of said achievement and keeping it up or (keep on) pushing (it) forward.

The very fact there's an allegory of "parasitic people" and the discussion on how to manage their "flow" elsewhere says enough about the inexperience and social awkwardness resulting from the previously mentioned exaggerated Suitheism and the "trying to make fit"/"I-Want-To-Be-Specialism" that's running rampant.

The end goal should be to overcome the self and being able to impose the own will instead of solely gratifying it. It would seem such reasoning is just a Satanism too far and where many just prefer to blog, podcast and be "artsy".

Perhaps it isn't clear, or will be regarded by some as a something that goes without saying, but... In order to become the next grand poo-bah you first have to be part of a group in the first place and get their approval/support in order to hold said position. There's a need to comply first BEFORE a well-reasoned alteration or pushing can take place. Hence my remark of either working the way upwards even if it means being parasited and having to comply or belonging to the marginalized lower echelons of society.
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#78478 - 07/24/13 01:09 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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Indeed, it is rather easy to understand. Why are you having so much difficulty with such a basic concept?

 Quote:
In order to become the next grand poo-bah you first have to be part of a group in the first place and get their approval/support in order to hold said position.


I honestly don't know what you're going on about here, other than you seem to have some disdain for 'me' not being part of your little group of sycophants and wanna-be-specialisms on the Internet.

Get real Dimitri. This is merely a tool. Like a cell phone, a computer, a stapler or ruler. As stated previously, you, nor anyone else decide my peer group. I'm not interested in being your Pooh-bah or whatever the hell that nonsense is about. I couldn't care less if knuckle-heads on the Internet find me to be 'Satanic' enough for their tastes, I find most users can't reach my standard anyway. I wouldn't expect them to strive for it, why would they? I would think an individual sets their own, then lives by it - period.

What I do as 'hobbies' of mine have nothing at all to do with personal achievements, other than looking at my stats and thinking: "Wow. People are listening to my rants and expressionism on the Netz". In addition, I refer you to my axioms previously shared.

Isn't the topic about 'Real Live' achievements, not some Internet cred that amounts to basically cults of personality?

You show me your cult, I'll show you mine. Then we can meet at High-Noon for a shoot out.
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#78487 - 07/24/13 02:43 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Kemble Offline
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Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 139
As a general observation it's so ironic that folks that place an emphasis on self development, take on the name of Satan as a gesture of freeing the autonomy of the self from the enslavement of the dominating society/culture operating system, have little to no control of their emotional swings from their old mental softwares. And emotions almost always manifest as tension in the body - there's the loss of physical control right there. There's no reason to be a dick if you have an awareness of your stimulus/response mechanism. Otherwise whining about social constrictions while not doing anything about your habitual constrictions is a waste of time.
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#78488 - 07/24/13 02:48 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Kemble]
Kemble Offline
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Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 139
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The end goal should be to overcome the self and being able to impose the own will instead of solely gratifying it. It would seem such reasoning is just a Satanism too far and where many just prefer to blog, podcast and be "artsy".


Better line of thinking is to overcome your old psychophysical habitual kinks in the self to make a better use of the self. 'Overcoming the self' is just a fancy term for suicide (or Nirvana, take your pick). You don't overcome the self. Just continually update its infinite set of processes.

And imposing your will is a good skill by taking back the reins of the horse (self-complex), but gratifying the self isn't always bad. You don't need to walk around everywhere holding a dumbell doing curls because you want to continually 'impose your will.' Relaxing is also just fine.

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#78490 - 07/24/13 03:41 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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The statements I made were quite general. When I wrote about the people who prefer to blog, make podcasts and being "artsy" I was thinking about a greater many who are related to the SIN-facebook page and those of the SotHG-group pages. The very fact you recognized yourself in those quite broad statements isn't a problem from my part. It's moreover you recognized yourself in such behavior and didn't like the calling out.

Now, as an interest, when you call Satanism "a tool".. I'd like to ask about the purpose of said tool from your own paradigm. Seeing you already negated the possibility for it being used as self-development by reason of your so-called "non-caring" attitude and also having stated on a few occasions not acting as an educator... The credibility is running quite thin.


Edited by Dimitri (07/24/13 04:04 PM)
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#78491 - 07/24/13 03:43 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Kemble]
Werbinox Offline
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Registered: 04/06/13
Posts: 118
The self...but what is the self? Its a complex of things, physical, emotional, intellectual, transpersonal...there's genetics to deal with, what is often called Nature, and there's nurture, the programming one has been raised in, social-environmental osmosis.

Early in the year I did a two-week work training session in Memphis, and shared a room with a young man who told me in all seriousness he was a Nazi. He had been raised by a grandfather who was supposedly an ex SS-Officer. This kid (he was in his early 20's, so to me he's a kid) was one of the brightest, most decent and polite person's I've ever met, with a politeness that was anything but brittle or strained, more in the character of a side-effect of a nobility of being. He treated everyone, including those of a race different to his own, with the same kind of dignity he himself inspired. Yet he had these moments in private where he would say dumb racist things, and spout crackpot ideas he learned from his grandfather (and man this old man warped his mind, stuff worthy of X-Files episodes!) To me, these moments seemed a blight on his character, something alien to who he is and can be, something learned. But he would say this is "just who I am"...like country songs where the singer glorifies their small town ways and redneck nurturing as a bedrock of identity! I told him to keep his mind open and to never stop learning, in the hope that one day he would discover what might be truly his self as opposed to things accepted from others. And much of "self-overcoming" may involve this kind of thing, learning that some of 'you' isn't really you at all, rather medial things that can be changed with conscious determination, i.e. Will.

Imposing and / or exercising the will need not always be something as harsh and blatant as making yourself walk around curling weights. It can be subtle, clever, and multi-faceted. The book "The Act of Will" by Roberto Assagioli deals with this, and is good for coming up with ideas of your own.

http://www.psychosynthesisbooks.com/books/the-act-of-will.html
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#78493 - 07/24/13 04:37 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
334forwardspin Offline
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Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
So, let me get this straight. According to you, if you choose your own goals, and make them centered around achieving high level abilities in the areas you choose, by standards you pick, disregarding what society values then you are merely complying to 'mundane social standards'. I'm not talking about positions given by others, I'm referring to one's actual personal skills. However, if you shape goals around what impacts the world, then that is not doing so?

Basically, your arguing that it is less of a conformity mentality to choose your goals based on society, it doesn't fit. I don't understand why it's so important to determine the expectations set for others, why not just worry about yourself? It's all about personal ability for me, seeking exceptional abilities in my chosen area.

It's not as if there are just an elite few who determine to societal expectations anyhow. If you become in charge of something, you have the power to determine who gets what positions based on your expectations, but not what the general population values. A large portion of the population has to agree with a set of expectations for them to become societal standards of what success is, otherwise they are not respected or valued on a large scale.

So perhaps 'hun' you should examine your own theory.


Edited by 334forwardspin (07/24/13 04:40 PM)

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#78494 - 07/24/13 05:07 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
Dimitri Offline
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The problem in the kind of reasoning you handle is this:
 Originally Posted By: 123backwardturn
and make them centered around achieving high level abilities in the areas you choose, by standards you pick,

A subjective and personal assessment of the own "skills" (and henceforth setting the standards based on them) always leads to illusory ways of thinking. In the end the best that can be offered (by your line of thinking) is living up to standards of society and not the possibilities of reaching beyond and pushing the boundaries.

The very reason I'm in support of shaping goals that can impact a greater audience is by reason it being the hard (yet best) way when it concerns critiques to step up the own game and develop a praxis/philosophy based on the more truthful state of society and its various antics. It beats developing views and skills from the easily delusioned ego, which essentially is what you're supporting.

Time to step down from the thinking in "conforming towards.." and take a more reasonable (and realistic) approach. Especially when the idea of WtP is so fully embraced in Satanism.

Not all are fit to walk this road.
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#78550 - 07/24/13 11:23 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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Oh? Considering there are so few people that blog, podcast and are 'artsy' at the same time, it seems to be less focused on a generality but rather on specifics.

My response still stands, as a person that does blog, podcast and makes 'artsy' stuff, these things are merely a hobby. It's not particularly unique by any means, I see thousands of people out there on the Web doing the same activity for their own reasons. You appear to believe it's to either replace real-world action, or a form of Guru-ism. There's plenty of that too. When speaking in generalisms, why pussy-foot around with it? Name examples, and present your analysis.

You assert a Poobah-ism, when it may just be a form of entertainment, expressionism, or 'gaming' on the web. I see it all the time, have even played the game and people that are fooled by web-based realities, well? That goes without saying.

 Quote:
Now, as an interest, when you call Satanism "a tool".. I'd like to ask about the purpose of said tool from your own paradigm. Seeing you already negated the possibility for it being used as self-development by reason of your so-called "non-caring" attitude and also having stated on a few occasions not acting as an educator... The credibility is running quite thin.


Perhaps you should read that again. I said the 'Internet' was a tool, I've spoke of Satanism being 'method', in various topics. I can only speculate here but your understanding seems to be what you 'believe' it to be, rather than what actually is.

As far as educating goes, I'd say we all learn something from various perspectives. Even a Retard has perspective. It's not the same thing as going out guns-blazing like a Guru, Mentor or Teacher. Hell, I'd say most people learn best by doing, not talking.
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#78551 - 07/24/13 11:28 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Kemble]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Kemble
As a general observation it's so ironic that folks that place an emphasis on self development, take on the name of Satan as a gesture of freeing the autonomy of the self from the enslavement of the dominating society/culture operating system, have little to no control of their emotional swings from their old mental softwares. And emotions almost always manifest as tension in the body - there's the loss of physical control right there. There's no reason to be a dick if you have an awareness of your stimulus/response mechanism. Otherwise whining about social constrictions while not doing anything about your habitual constrictions is a waste of time.


It can be, ironic I mean. It depends on the individual person. I see a lot of emotional-baggage being toted about while throwing horns and claiming one is liberated from their 'old religion'. There's also a fair bit of xenophobia when it comes to interpersonal relations with people of other mindsets.

Personal development and maturity have a lot to do with that, in my opinion. Otherwise, people do tend to 'react' from their core-software in spite of dynamic changes in their personhood.
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#78552 - 07/24/13 11:38 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
The very reason I'm in support of shaping goals that can impact a greater audience is by reason it being the hard (yet best) way when it concerns critiques to step up the own game and develop a praxis/philosophy based on the more truthful state of society and its various antics. It beats developing views and skills from the easily delusioned ego, which essentially is what you're supporting.


I would say that it wreaks of hypocrisy in that you then become co-dependent on others to validate your ego. If one is truly self-reliant then one can check one's own delusions at the door, and this is by way of personal successes/failures.

The Exoteric critique is always full of delusionals. It's not the same thing as validating data as in the peer-review process used in the Scientific Method.

Using a mundane example:
If say, you talk a big game at work that you can do this and that but yet, your progress in a task is either stunted or goes wrong because you lack the 'real' skills; that alone should be enough for personal reassessment. You can make adjustments by attaining the skills and taking responsibility for your shit talk.
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#78569 - 07/25/13 02:32 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
Oh? Considering there are so few people that blog, podcast and are 'artsy' at the same time, it seems to be less focused on a generality but rather on specifics.

I wouldn't say there are "few" people. There are quite a few, it only takes a few google searches to get a list. I neither didn't state all was done at the same time, that's an assumption from your part ;\)

It also stands to question why you suddenly start invoking "internet creds" while there was only a minor reference? I believe I stated many just prefer to gratify the ego through those blogs, podcasts and "artsy"-stuff with seldom hitting the road and starting to practice WtP (or as said before "overcoming the self and being able to impose the will"). I would almost think you, for some reason, recognized yourself negatively in said statement.. but that would be plain silly, no?

 Quote:
Perhaps you should read that again. I said the 'Internet' was a tool, I've spoke of Satanism being 'method', in various topics.

In that case, I repeat my question and switch the word "tool" with "method".

 Quote:
I would say that it wreaks of hypocrisy in that you then become co-dependent on others to validate your ego. If one is truly self-reliant then one can check one's own delusions at the door, and this is by way of personal successes/failures.

What's the better choice? An ego stemming from the easy deluded self or one being deconstructed, shaped and formed by those "others"? My preference for the latter is within the reason you'll exactly know where you're standing and where to improve. This, instead of taking a shot in the dark and exclaiming mastery to yourself (which is quite a silly thing to do).
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#78570 - 07/25/13 02:48 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
334forwardspin Offline
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What makes you so certain that the evaluation of several people, or society in general would be any more accurate? Society's view is entirely subjective as well, which is particularly evident in the fact that societies throughout history have all valued different things.

Regarding subjectivity, that's why I said to try and find FACTS to go on. There are usually, depending on what you are seeking facts that can be used to determine your abilities. There's really no reason why others, or society in general have more credibility than personal assessment, as long as your wanting to deal with truth.

In terms of an accurate assessment of personal ability, a system based on facts is much more practical than one based on what society values. In essence, the facts still remain facts whether society decides they value your achievement or not. If you have superior abilities in a specific skill set, that can be put to effective use, they still remain superior regardless of whether or not society decides they value them, and value what those abilities can help you accomplish.

After that, it basically becomes about the importance you put on how highly society views you, and for me that is very little. I have mentioned that I have no problem with seeking something that meets societal standards, if their standards are the same as mine. Where it becomes a problem for me is actually shaping my standards around what society's standards are, big difference.

Satanism is merely a collection of several philosophies, for each individual to pick and choose which ones they like. I don't find a need to impose your will on others to be important, personal achievement is much more valuable to me. I don't see what is unrealistic about that perspective either. In some instances, influencing others that can help you can be effective, but a more effective method with that is being able to sell my ideas to them.

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#78572 - 07/25/13 03:13 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
What makes you so certain that the evaluation of several people, or society in general would be any more accurate? Society's view is entirely subjective as well, which is particularly evident in the fact that societies throughout history have all valued different things.

Peer-review is the answer. While different societies have valued different things through history, it stands that those were successful for their time being and brought forth their own icons (by which some are still of relevance to this day).

 Quote:
Regarding subjectivity, that's why I said to try and find FACTS to go on. There are usually, depending on what you are seeking facts that can be used to determine your abilities. There's really no reason why others, or society in general have more credibility than personal assessment, as long as your wanting to deal with truth.

Something as "the truth" and "facts" can be quite slippery slopes. Isn't this quote, in a certain way, also contradictive to your first paragraph? Especially when you state it is all subjective...

Try harder.
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#78573 - 07/25/13 04:20 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
334forwardspin Offline
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Yet again, I ask you why you feel peer review is so much more competent of a judgment method than your own personal perception. You mentioned how the ego can easily delude oneself, and you don't feel others could do the same to you? At times, people will get a lot of credit for what seems like very little. Why do you seem to feel that one's peers are not prone to error?

In my experience, peer review is only helpful if you are given sound advise on how to improve your abilities, rather than pure assessment. I have had a lot of peer reviews that really were completely useless. I am aware of what I do well, and what I do not do well. I have been told things that I already knew were not true, and sometimes it is just them telling me what they think I should pursue, instead of even assessing my abilities in what I am pursuing.

No, it's not contradictory because I said to use FACTS in your personal assessment, aka performance evaluation. Test your skills, and evaluate your skills using a factual criteria. The main point is, that it is asinine to value peer assessment over an actual criteria based on facts.

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#78574 - 07/25/13 04:36 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
Yet again, I ask you why you feel peer review is so much more competent of a judgment method than your own personal perception.

That's a question which shouldn't even be asked. Your "peers" can offer different takes, methods and views through which a judgement covers a wider arrange of possibilities and takes more into account. Much more than a single person can come up with. It also offers different perspectives instead of the singular that will be handled.

Are you being dense on purpose?
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#78576 - 07/25/13 05:46 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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[/quote] I would say that it wreaks of hypocrisy in that you then become co-dependent on others to validate your ego. If one is truly self-reliant then one can check one's own delusions at the door, and this is by way of personal successes/failures.

The Exoteric critique is always full of delusionals. It's not the same thing as validating data as in the peer-review process used in the Scientific Method.

Using a mundane example:
If say, you talk a big game at work that you can do this and that but yet, your progress in a task is either stunted or goes wrong because you lack the 'real' skills; that alone should be enough for personal reassessment. You can make adjustments by attaining the skills and taking responsibility for your shit talk.

[/quote]


This is essentially a key step in self-reliance, the ability to assess yourself. Ability awareness is really a key part of success in general, in many situations. Obviously it isn't TOTAL self-reliance, but why would you reject something that could allow you to rely on yourself more so if you embraced it? It makes no sense.

Basically, it requires a willingness to deal with truth, and seeking to understand and personally verify knowledge that relates to your goals through research or experimentation. Part of that knowledge, is knowing how to assess yourself well. Then, you test it and analyze the results, scientific method. Forming a hypothesis as to what your abilities are, is just fine as long as you accept nothing as fact until it is tested. As you said, once a test happens you confirm if you were right, or wrong.

In a lot of cases, assessing oneself is pretty obvious once you've tested. If someone falsely believes they are the top med school student in their class, a 55 on a midterm would likely wake them up. If someone believes they can deadlift 700 pounds to the top of their legs, then goes to the gym and can't even lift it an inch off the floor, they will know right away they falsely assessed.

Factual criteria is really the only way I find practical to judge abilities with.


Edited by 334forwardspin (07/25/13 05:46 AM)

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#78581 - 07/25/13 08:52 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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It's assumptive on your part, what you see on the Internet is what you seem to be basing your judgment upon.

You don't see that as a narrow point of view? It's not as if you can 'see' what people do in their real-world existence.

The same goes for some profound soap-boxer, he may be living with Mom and collecting welfare, thereby using the Internet as a tool to vent about his 'real world' without revealing too much about himself.

You follow?

Hence, the specifics would matter in casting a reasonable judgment.

How many instances can you count where you have engaged a person on a forum, then arranged a social meet-up?

For myself, I can say I've done this a number of occasions and what you see isn't always what you get.

In imposing the Will, this is very much a part of the 'self' as a whole, otherwise you are presumably treating the self like an etheric entity that inhabits a machine.

Perhaps what you really mean is overcoming obstacles within self, and using Will to perform tasks, commit deeds.

As stated previously Satanism for me, is a method by which I approach tasks and I don't consider it simply a philosophy or a religion because that would be an inadequate descriptor in my opinion.

When waxing philosophical, there is an important part of 'doing' not just thinking and talking.

I understand that 'peer' review is important to you, I'm not attempting to talk you out of this method for yourself. I'm simply stating that 'I' do not use this method, and I rarely meet a peer.

Sharing a label does not a peer make.

Take for example the label 'women'. Just because there are Billions of women, doesn't mean I consider them my peers in any given context. We just share a gender identification. The same applies with Satanist.



Edited by SIN3 (07/25/13 08:53 AM)
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#78583 - 07/25/13 08:59 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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Let me ask you this Dimi,

How do you formulate your peer group off the Internet? Are they colleagues at work, friends, family, associates in a social club, or what? It seems you favor the Exoteric over the Esoteric, would you consider yourself Left-hand-path, Right-hand-path, both, neither or what? If we narrow it down to Satanism, do you believe the nature of the dog is to practice in packs?
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#78602 - 07/25/13 12:04 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: 334forwardspin]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
Obviously it isn't TOTAL self-reliance, but why would you reject something that could allow you to rely on yourself more so if you embraced it? It makes no sense.


Agreed, though I don't believe it requires 'peer evaluation', at least not to the extent Dimitri is positing.

Can the 'self' be trusted? In mindspace you can rationalize yourself into believing you are going about something the right way, or have the right mindset but put it into practice and that's when the rubber meets the road.

This is a key-point in the 'I can'ts' too, it can be determined if something is beyond the scope of your abilities if you make a go of it, vs. 'I won't', where you don't even try.

I try new things all the time, even if I'm shitty at it, at least I know where my strengths and weaknesses are. There's also an element of knowing thyself, to learn what drives you to pick up something new that forces you out of your comfort zone.

If say, you are always taking the lead, it may develop into what I call 'Helium Hand'. Some people volunteer for things to keep up appearances, or even to live up to an image built in your own head. There may be instances where it's most beneficial to you to not do this. You can't very well complain about coping with parasites if you offer yourself as the host.
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#78604 - 07/25/13 12:59 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Conchis Offline
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Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 207
Loc: us
The position that Dimitri is arguing is one that he has proposed before, in other threads and other forms. So I gather that the necessity for peer review is quite important to his mindset. One bit of terminology that we seem to be approaching is scientism.

@Dimitri: Because of your insistence on validation by a peer group, I might ask whether the concept of scientism is an issue for you?

-Do you feel that science is the end all, be all, of the ism's?

-Is there some reason that you feel basing every assessment, and the validity, of your "movements" and "actions" on peer review would NOT constitute scientism?

Personally I feel that a mix of both the EXO and ESO are often required to accurately judge the validity of an "action" or "position". So while I do take the process of peer review into account, basing ones entire paradigm on peer review can lead to "faith" in science or scientism/faith in peer review.

Notes: Thanks goes out to Le Deluge for posting an excellent article on scientism that can be found here.

For any one interested, another thread that would seem to be touching on similar topics can be found here.


Edited by Conchis (07/25/13 01:48 PM)

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#78608 - 07/25/13 01:26 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Conchis]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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From the previous thread shared:

 Quote:

It is possible to view science in religious terms. I found this article some time back: The Folly of Scientism. Note he does differentiate science from scientism.


I couldn't agree more. There's tons of this stuff riddled throughout the Occult to the point where it seems the definition has shifted, when in reality is hasn't.

In terms of EXO/ESO mixing for self-assessment, I can agree to a certain extent, if say I wanted to learn something specific. I may seek a Mentor, then defer to that Mentor to see if I've learned it well enough to have my potential exceed the instruction.

Again it seems to flesh out the deeds vs. the 'Live Achievements' aspect.
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#78611 - 07/25/13 01:38 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Conchis]
SIN3 Offline
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Reading through the shared article, it reminded me of this little gem: Fish-oil may cause Prostate Cancer. The pseudo-science was populated by just about every media hound that started an up-roar in people taking fish-oils.

The 'Science' behind it, was actually just making correlations (while sweeping other data under the carpet). From there, you get people hysterical and jumping into conspiracy wagons over the Health-Industry, Supplements, and Food-poisons.

See: Flaws in the Study

It was also covered on Savage Nation

Some people regard Science as being without flaw, especially in the logical drive behind published studies. Peer-review in that regard, is important but I think it's being misappropriated by Dimitri's usage. He must have some reason for relying on it so heavily in his own paradigm, eh?
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#78624 - 07/25/13 03:01 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
[quick reply]
 Quote:
It's assumptive on your part, what you see on the Internet is what you seem to be basing your judgment upon.
You don't see that as a narrow point of view? It's not as if you can 'see' what people do in their real-world existence.

My judgement has seldom failed me as it always provided to be quite accurate. Indeed, until now I HAVE been basing my arguments on a variety of antics and trends I noticed on the internet. But am I wrong with my assessment? Without a question that's a "no". My primary reason? It provided the only places where I could "meet" a few peers by reason there are very few I would even want to associate with in real life. If I were to readdress my made statements in comparison to "real life", my commentary would remain the same with the exception of switching the "blogging and podcasts" with "black metal concerts and COSplay".

 Quote:
How many instances can you count where you have engaged a person on a forum, then arranged a social meet-up?

I usually do it the other way round. But will admit that when it concerns the "Satanic landscape" I never arrange a social meet-up. The primary reason is distance.. I might be financially (very) secure but am not in the mood to pay an airplane ticket for a one day visit with someone from across the globe. The only person I might want to meet up with was Diavolo, but even then I'm maintaining the idea I already know enough people in daily life and have no need to get a few additional UNLESS there's something decently to offer.

 Quote:
How do you formulate your peer group off the Internet? Are they colleagues at work, friends, family, associates in a social club, or what? It seems you favor the Exoteric over the Esoteric, would you consider yourself Left-hand-path, Right-hand-path, both, neither or what? If we narrow it down to Satanism, do you believe the nature of the dog is to practice in packs?

My peer group are my fellow colleagues, investigators and "anonymous reviewers" who will eventually read or use my work. A great majority aren't people I associate with but who happen to also be knowledgeable on the subjects and also hold a certain degree of experience (which can be easily noticed in their "presentation" or how criticism/feedback is given). The same is easily applied in cyberspace.

IF you read the closing note on the topic of "The Atheist Label" I posted here (and elsewhere), I stated I'm starting to shy away from the label of "Satanist" and am getting a preference to call my praxis "LHP".

 Originally Posted By: Conchis
Because of your insistence on validation by a peer group, I might ask whether the concept of scientism is an issue for you?

-Do you feel that science is the end all, be all, of the ism's?

-Is there some reason that you feel basing every assessment, and the validity, of your "movements" and "actions" on peer review would NOT constitute scientism?

Some would label certain of my views and approaches as "Scientism". If people prefer to label it that way and feel better about themselves, so be it. I only see the validity of the methodology involved as the most objective and best to assess situations, actions and experiences. Hence, science is not an end but moreover a method. It certainly isn't an "-ism" as it would counteract its fluidity and would make it as "carved in stone".
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#78627 - 07/25/13 03:07 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
If I were to readdress my made statements in comparison to "real life", my commentary would remain the same with the exception of switching the "blogging and podcasts" with "black metal concerts and COSplay".


I suppose that could be true if you were seeking 'peers' at a Metal Concert or Cosplayers in similar venues. I'm speaking more so of the day-to-day.

I understand what you mean by sharing 'your work' and getting feedback from Internet users that have self-evident knowledge, though I also see where it can be self-affirming if you only identify 'peers' that think like you do, have the same mind set as you do, and choose to dismiss anything that isn't agreeable with how you think. How can you determine if you are thinking the right way if you're not open to the full gambit vs. a peer group?
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#78631 - 07/25/13 03:41 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
I suppose that could be true if you were seeking 'peers' at a Metal Concert or Cosplayers in similar venues. I'm speaking more so of the day-to-day.

That IS how the "Satanic Landscape" looks in real life. In day-to-day activities I'm too busy with studies, my finances and work to really mind and label all my activities as "Satanic". There's a reason I call it "praxis" and not method or philosophy.

 Quote:
I understand what you mean by sharing 'your work' and getting feedback from Internet users that have self-evident knowledge, though I also see where it can be self-affirming if you only identify 'peers' that think like you do, have the same mind set as you do, and choose to dismiss anything that isn't agreeable with how you think. How can you determine if you are thinking the right way if you're not open to the full gambit vs. a peer group?

Correction, feedback is not gained from the internet as you would like to think. While email became a primary source to contact and posit questions about experiments and studies, most of it is being distributed through snail mail or memos.

There's a distinction between my professional life and private one. I'm not a professional Satanist doing science. I'm simply a professional.
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#78634 - 07/25/13 03:54 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
EricJC Offline
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I think there are many different stances on what a "real life achievement" through Satanism is. For me, pure happiness and being able to do whatever I want to in life without regret is the biggest life achievement. Many aspects of Satanism are just what I believe and apply in my everyday life and I believe through the course of my life it will assist me in accomplishing my goal of doing whatever I want.
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#78649 - 07/25/13 08:00 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: EricJC]
Conchis Offline
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Registered: 12/16/11
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Loc: us
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
In terms of EXO/ESO mixing for self-assessment, I can agree to a certain extent, if say I wanted to learn something specific. I may seek a Mentor, then defer to that Mentor to see if I've learned it well enough to have my potential exceed the instruction.

This is generally how I view the topic at hand.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Some people regard Science as being without flaw, especially in the logical drive behind published studies. Peer-review in that regard, is important but I think it's being misappropriated by Dimitri's usage. He must have some reason for relying on it so heavily in his own paradigm, eh?

Aye, and the reasoning itself would seem to be becoming more apparent. I am under the impression that Dimitri takes his science quite seriously, perhaps to the point of considering the scientific method as a "first" epistemological "principle". Is this an accurate statement in your eye's Dimitri?

Out of personal interest I wonder if any of the other members (especially our seasoned vets I.E. peers) put the scientific method on a pedestal in the same manner?

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Some would label certain of my views and approaches as "Scientism". If people prefer to label it that way and feel better about themselves, so be it.

Touchy, touchy.

Personally I find your (Dimitris) position on the matter quite understandable, and perhaps even quite predictable, especially when compared to modern society in general. I Personally find great value in the scientific method but only insofar as predicting various elements of the objective universe. When trying to predict events of a subjective manner I find that it often fails miserably. As such I find "intuition" to be quite indispensable when dealing with the ups and downs of everyday life. Intuition and practical knowledge would seem to be a more accurate formula for success and achievement to myself at any rate.


Edited by Conchis (07/25/13 08:28 PM)

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#78662 - 07/25/13 11:03 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
That IS how the "Satanic Landscape" looks in real life.


Does it? Here I thought 'Satanists' are just regular looking people that blend in with the crowd. I've met quite a few business professionals (Satanists) that certainly don't frequent Metal Concerts, wear Corpse-paint, or Cosplay for that matter.


 Quote:
Correction, feedback is not gained from the internet as you would like to think. While email became a primary source to contact and posit questions about experiments and studies, most of it is being distributed through snail mail or memos


You don't know what I think. I write what I want you to read.

You state 'became' as in past-tense, do you no longer utilize email as a form of communication with your 'peers'?

 Quote:
There's a distinction between my professional life and private one. I'm not a professional Satanist doing science. I'm simply a professional.


When you talk about your 'work', perhaps you can clarify what you are referring to specifically. Work, as in what you do for a living, or 'work' as in peer-reviewed content in relation to your LHP mindset?
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#78682 - 07/26/13 02:59 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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Since when did this become interrogation time? What happened about addressing content instead of playing on character?
I don't know where the sudden labeling of "Scientism" came from but have the impression it's the one of the last straws used by a dense person who can't seem to cope with a different approach. I've already mentioned it before:
 Originally Posted By: me
If people prefer to label it that way and feel better about themselves, so be it.
Which means I'm not going to answer questions as these:
 Originally Posted By: Conchis
Is this an accurate statement in your eye's Dimitri?
As it is a fucking non-point.

 Originally Posted By: SIN
Does it? Here I thought 'Satanists' are just regular looking people that blend in with the crowd. I've met quite a few business professionals (Satanists) that certainly don't frequent Metal Concerts, wear Corpse-paint, or Cosplay for that matter.

Then more power to you. I don't give a flying fuck. In case you didn't notice, I only associate (in real life) with people who have something to offer. The idea they wear the label "Satanist" or "LHP" isn't a reason to let them in. Great you're wanting to meet other like-minded, I'm not interested.

I get it, congratulations to call all your achievements "Satanic" together with the choice wearing the label out into the open. Cut the crap already, "Satanism" isn't a label I put on all my work to dignify it. Results speak for themselves.

Seeing that instead of addressing content and moreover devolved in "character interrogation", I'm out.


Edited by Dimitri (07/26/13 03:47 AM)
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#78686 - 07/26/13 07:54 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
What are you going on about?

I was just addressing statements that you made in relation to the OP.

'Satanism' isn't just wearing a pin and having the ability to socialize, otherwise - everyone would be Satanists, right?

You asked questions, I provided answers.
I asked questions, you evade answers, then exit.

*golf clap*
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#78713 - 07/26/13 05:47 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Conchis Offline
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Posts: 207
Loc: us
WOW, take a chill pill. None of the questions I asked had anything to do with character assassination.

The topic at hand is "Satanism and real live achievements"

-You supplied a particular approach to real live achievements. I.E. a highly scientific approach, in which peer review holds the highest level of possible epistemelogical truth.

-I questioned the above assertion, NOT YOUR CHARACTER.

-If your having trouble answering these questions, perhaps your approach to achievement has more flaws than you originally thought.

-If your unwilling to deal with the harder questions that deal with your mindset, the flaw is with your mindset not with my questions. No reason to get "pissy" because you don't like to be challenged.

-If you can't deal with questions about epistemology than why follow the LHP in the first place. Above all I view the LHP as a search for truth, do you see it in some other light? There are plenty of other approaches to life that care little about truth, take part in one of those if you care so little about answers.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Perhaps that's the reason why your personality amounted to pretty much nothing here (except some raised activity).

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Some would label certain of my views and approaches as "Scientism". If people prefer to label it that way and feel better about themselves, so be it.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I don't know where the sudden labeling of "Scientism" came from but have the impression it's the one of the last straws used by a dense person who can't seem to cope with a different approach.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. It is statements like these, PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE pokes at another's person, that I would consider character assassination. I have reviewed the questions that I have asked of you and none of them question you as a person, or call your intelligence in question, my questions were directly about your approach to success and achievement in the LHP context I.E. Your method, not your character.

Conclusion: I'm sorry if you don't like to be asked about the deeper implications of your "method". I'm sorry if you are unable to answer those questions, for one reason, or another. I'm sorry that you automatically assume that your "method" cannot be questioned.

To be honest you are proving my point for me, this is a blazing testament about why scientism is a very real pitfall within the context of the LHP. The fact the scientism works for you in your "work life" is fine, if that's your approach. But this isn't your "work life" this isn't a forum about science, its a forum about Satanism, occultism and the LHP. Deal with it.

Note: I have commented to you before (in PM's) that I think your a sharp tack, and that I enjoy your post's. So please don't assume I'm petty enough to attack your person. My questions were only an attempt to understand your process, that is it, nothing more.


Edited by Conchis (07/26/13 06:38 PM)

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#78736 - 07/27/13 02:36 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Conchis]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
WOW, take a chill pill. None of the questions I asked had anything to do with character assassination interrogation.

Indeed, my apologies. Last couple of days were a bit tough.. break-up with the girlfriend and a bit deprived of sleep by both the current heat-wave striking Europe and annoying/frustrating business which is finally solved.

 Quote:
-You supplied a particular approach to real live achievements. I.E. a highly scientific approach, in which peer review holds the highest level of possible epistemelogical truth.

Traditionally, after re-reading all the previous posts, it became clear there was confusion it seemed to happen all the way down (from both professional life to private). I still stand by the statement there's "peer review" however, seeing it is mostly associated with academical field, a better synonym would be evaluation (and preferably by peers but that's seldom the case). It's pretty much voicing an opinion/idea or piece of work and seeing, hearing or reading the subsequent reactions/criticism/feedback which can help to enhance or review the proposed idea or opinion.

If I read things like "taking an esoteric approach" I will automatically assume things are being put "out there" while directly covering the ears and humming "Lalala ♫". Stating personal achievements (even in an indirect way) are prime (measured up by self-chosen standards) makes me equal the approach and attitude with the previously mentioned covering of the ears while exclaiming mastery. I happen to agree with the mix "exo and eso".

I'll still stand by the statement that if people want to label my views and approaches as "scientism", they may do so. Chances are they'll miss out on (quite) a few things. Reason? There's a self-imposed limitation from their side. Hence my subsequent reaction that when asking "if the scientific method is a epistemological principle" is actually a non-point.
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#78801 - 07/28/13 09:49 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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For me, I haven't labeled your approach anything. I'm asking questions to understand your position and hard-leaning on peer-review.

You appear to disagree with me calling 'Satanism' method but it seems a lot similar to what you are saying about the LHP.

LaVey described 'Satan' to be the personification of the LHP and I find that agreeable. I agree that LHP is praxis, what I'm saying about 'Satan', and 'Satanism', is it's merely a method of the LHP.

The LHP relies on both ESO/EXO methods by which a person can reach full potential and manifest his desires but it's not just some 'self-improvement' task, nor is 'peer review' a requirement in the manner you've described from my vantage point. As I stated early-on to reduce it to Philosophy or Religion would be inadequate and inaccurate, in my opinion. I find many would-be 'peers' completely clueless about both LHP and Satanism. To reiterate a bit here, I rarely meet a peer but I'm certainly open to any/all comments about my thoughts and ideas. I don't limit that critique/criticism to those like me. How is that helpful? I'm perfectly capable of sorting out useful from useless.

I added a VIDEO to the Video discussions board that I believe is quite relevant here.

Give it a watch, return to this discussion and tell me what you personally agree/disagree with.


Edited by SIN3 (07/28/13 09:52 AM)
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#78804 - 07/28/13 11:39 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
LaVey described 'Satan' to be the personification of the LHP and I find that agreeable. I agree that LHP is praxis, what I'm saying about 'Satan', and 'Satanism', is it's merely a method of the LHP.


Definitely. I think this is exactly how we might keep the overall conversation going at a higher level. Instead of identity, discuss the crux of the matter. Methodology. I think a lot of threads all but die by making it too much about identity. Ontology is obviously important, but I don't want to get too far adrift. This statement just caught my eye.

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#78805 - 07/28/13 12:23 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Le Deluge]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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I know this one dude that wrote a bunch of stuff about Satanism from that perspective. \:\)

Satan is much more meaningful as the 'do' and the resultant changes and refinements to the self that might come with it. That is how it stays fresh, as each does it and makes it their own.

As an identity pin, it becomes 'who you are' and like people tend to do, once something falls within your established borders you become willing to defend them..and we have just a new sort of stagnation.

When I look at shit I have written here through the years I see that guy from back then is 'lesser' to this guy typing, and the guy looking at this in another 5 will say the same of me(provided he's still alive and healthy).

Satan is concerned with the earth, not the sky after all.
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#78806 - 07/28/13 01:01 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
once something falls within your established borders you become willing to defend them..and we have just a new sort of stagnation.


What I don't get, is why something so simple is so hard to grasp for so many????

Many of those 'peers' would like to think they get it, but they don't. I'd sooner kick them in the teeth than accept them as my friggin' peers. Please.
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#78808 - 07/28/13 04:00 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
FemaleSatan Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 556
Loc: The Dirty South
 Quote:
Quote:
once something falls within your established borders you become willing to defend them..and we have just a new sort of stagnation.


What I don't get, is why something so simple is so hard to grasp for so many????


If it was something easy to grasp there would be no point in doing the work entailed to move past those mental lines. It's easy to delude yourself into thinking your doing the work, without actually doing the work.

I also think it's emotional. When something comes up to those mental lines an emotional reaction starts to prevent someone from moving beyond that. Most of my mental lines are always tied in with a severe emotional response, my mind's way of preventing me from crossing that boundary.



Edited by FemaleSatan (07/28/13 04:02 PM)
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#78810 - 07/28/13 04:33 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

As an identity pin, it becomes 'who you are' and like people tend to do, once something falls within your established borders you become willing to defend them..and we have just a new sort of stagnation.


A lot of folks rolling through seem to feel a need to "prove" even that fenced in bit of "satanic" real estate. It fucks up the whole conversation. Beyond stagnation, just silly. Time to bust up the fences.
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#78813 - 07/28/13 06:11 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
Conchis Offline
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Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 207
Loc: us
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
As an identity pin, it becomes 'who you are' and like people tend to do, once something falls within your established borders you become willing to defend them..and we have just a new sort of stagnation.

I think this is an excellent point. It's never good, in my opinion, to build a wall around yourself so high that you can't see what lies on the other side.

An important tool in the LHP context would be learning to recognize the patterns involved in "brick laying" so that you can with deliberation build NOT a wall, but a temple. As you build, brick by brick, your temple should climb higher and higher, and from your vantage point at the top you should see and understand, in ever increasing detail, what lies around you.


Edited by Conchis (07/28/13 06:12 PM)

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#78814 - 07/28/13 06:16 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Conchis]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Someone mentioned you the other day, Conchis, and I was like 'who the fuck is that'.

You have my attention. Nice metaphor.
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#78815 - 07/28/13 06:23 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Conchis]
SIN3 Offline
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Loc: Virginia
I do just the opposite. I tear it down brick by brick until no barriers remain. Wall/temple, etc. It's all just modeling. I go for the descent, vs. ascension. That's why the LHP is described as top-down effect vs. bottom-up.

From a Hermetic stand-point, there is no wall, there are no bricks, it's all just mental forms.

It doesn't necessarily mean you don't stand for something, I think everybody does in the moment. They are fleeting and often flighty nonsense. We get attached to the weirdest shit sometimes. It's like pulling back layers of dynamic noise to get to the core. All that noise came from somewhere at some point. What you were taught, exposure to influences, and at some stage you figure out what you're really made of.

Once you get to that core, can you live with it? If not, carve out something you can.
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#78817 - 07/28/13 06:33 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
But tearing it down is building the temple, so to speak..if the view is increased with increased autonomy. I won't speak for him but that's how I read it.

As for top down vs bottom up I guess that depends how you construct your model. I view the LHP as an 'upward spiral'(power starts with you and moves outwards), while I have RHP as a downward spiral(power held by external 'thing', filters down to end users/us).
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#78819 - 07/28/13 06:42 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
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Loc: Virginia
I was speaking of working the mind, and the body follows. Some people work from the body and on up. Those types usually go with 'feelings' or an un-even level of intuitive knowledge. They rely heavily on UPG's, even if they are completely whacko.

I understand the metaphor, especially the point of having a higher vantage point to scope your landscape but I see that as just another form of mental perspective; building your little proverbial temple can just be another applied delusion.

The vast majority of 'work' is done on the inside before it manifests into something tangible. The deeper you go, the more likely you are to know your own mechanisms. The less likely you are to fall into your own mental/emotional traps.


Edited to add:

I get your modeling, I am rarely confused when I read your writing. I'm just talking about the way I personally approach these things.


Edited by SIN3 (07/28/13 06:45 PM)
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#78821 - 07/28/13 06:59 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Ahh, mental>>physiological =top down.

I get that, and I agree. Intention is everything.
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#78823 - 07/28/13 07:04 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
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Precisely.

I know some believe that 'top-down' model to be similar to Divine Inspiration, Gods raining down wisdom or some such shit. Nah, not this chick.
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#78830 - 07/28/13 08:53 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Conchis Offline
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Posts: 207
Loc: us
It would seem to me that we are describing the same concept, but with different perspectives. One is additive while the other is subtractive (multiplicative). A good analogy might be found in color theory.

By adding red, green and blue together in various amounts we can eventually describe the entire spectrum of visible color.

By subtracting or multiplying (depending on how you look at it) yellow, magenta and cyan in various amounts we can also eventually describe the entire spectrum of visible color.

One of these describes a process of reflectance and transmission while the other describes a process of absorption and transmission, but both have the ability to describe the color spectrum in high detail.

Conclusion: In a way I agree with Dan, I see the process you describe (SIN3) as only one part of a whole. I feel that an oscillation between the additive and subtractive process is needed to produce the best results. This might be akin to the Temple of Sets concept of remanifestion. I say "might" because I'm not a member of the TOS and may be misappropriating their terminology.

Note: For anyone who is not aware of the difference between the two color models I have referenced here is a short clip that might help.

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#78842 - 07/29/13 03:20 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Conchis]
SIN3 Offline
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Loc: Virginia
Indeed, it would seem to be describing similar concepts but the reason I said 'opposite' was the possibility of creating another self-applied delusion to tear down.

If I used Dan's analogy of the Spiral Upward, then the descent would manifest outward from the top.


 Quote:
This might be akin to the Temple of Sets concept of remanifestion. I say "might" because I'm not a member of the TOS and may be misappropriating their terminology.


I'm familiar with it, it's just another way of mediating the "Philosopher's Stone". State of mind is everything though and people can certainly delude themselves into believing that their fresh outlook is the sure way to act in accordance to desires but the static self is rarely consistent. I'm more interested in Core-self unearthed and actualized.

I'm of the line of thinking that temporary thoughts and feelings can be transmuted in the moment for whatever needs we have at that time, but the Core is rarely changed. That's why I often say that people don't change, events change.
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#78851 - 07/29/13 03:16 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Conchis]
Werbinox Offline
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Registered: 04/06/13
Posts: 118
The TOS Word Remanifest can be viewed as the Core Self coming out (again) amidst the flux of the fleeting, the temporary, or Samsara; Being showing and reasserting itself amidst one's own becoming. Furthermore, according to Setian philosophy, it is only Remanifestation following Xeper, which transforms becoming into more Being. The temporary parts and energies of one's psycho-physical complex get harnessed to the permanent part of the self, according to one's conscious determination. So it is a transformed self that steps forward from the chaos, but one that is built upon the Core Self, therefore an advancement. Just one of many ways to view it.
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#78852 - 07/29/13 03:30 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Werbinox]
SIN3 Offline
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That sounds more true to the definition as I understood it in my brief study with the ToS.

 Quote:
it is only Remanifestation following Xeper


A core component from what I remember.
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#78889 - 07/30/13 12:07 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
capcap Offline
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Registered: 11/25/11
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Loc: Australia
I'm going to answer the original question which I will paraphase as, "how do you see Satanism as fitting into a world view of real world success?"

Personally, I have read Satanist books, (literally most of them), and I feel I have a good understanding of what LaVey intended when he wrote his books, that being said, I think he would support any one who went about their business in the most pragmatical way possible; including disowning Satanism if it meant that.

Personally, Satanism never comes up in my day-to-day work, so I can avoid any unnecessary explanations of Satanic definitions or philosophies. I am focused on the task at hand and not in putting things in terms of Satanism; which I have found would be counter productive to my personal career.

I have found Satanism, as codified by LaVey and also well articulated by Mr Gilmore in recent times, to be a way of thinking that makes sense to me, but I have learned I shouldn't assume makes sense to every one.

Many years have passed since I first research Satanism. I was 14. I was 16 when I'd say I understood the philosophy; having read the Satanic Bible, the Rituals, Satan Speaks, the Devil's Notebooks, The Church of Satan, the Compleat Witch, the Devil's Avenger, Might is Right, the Satanic Scriptures, and more.

I joined the church by showing my allegiance financially at 18 year of age. I also applied for active membership. I have been focused on MY real world. Satanism is a tool; but not a crutch.

I am a musician; I must practise daily, and focus my networking and personal skills to get where I want to be. Professing a knowledge of Satanic philosophy will get me nowhere. In the real world, where no one knows what the fuck Satanism actually is, there is no benefit to be gained from discussing it or bringing it up.

I have spend periods of my life yearning for other people to understand me, but I have lived through the age where I need that support. I have grown strong in my personal convictions and will. Now, I live satisfied everyday in my motive to become greater in my chosen endeavors. I don't need the support of my peers, that I wanted when I was in my teens.

At this time, Satanism is completely satisfied within my consciousness and not expressed externally. Day to day I wake up thinking about the great musicians I am trying be come like.

LaVey's philosophy was a gift, a tool, but not a crutch. Use it to your benefit, let is inspire you, let is start a fire within you to seek out more knowledge, but never let if put your desire for understanding from your peers foremost. Don't get sidetracked, there is greatness in you, and attack that future head on. In this modern world, I have found it most useful to be secretive and talent focused.

For me it's about how well I play the drums, not at all how well I profess my knowledge of Satanism.

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#78892 - 07/30/13 03:29 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Werbinox]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
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Loc: Nashville
 Originally Posted By: Werbinox
The TOS Word Remanifest can be viewed as the Core Self coming out (again) amidst the flux of the fleeting, the temporary, or Samsara; Being showing and reasserting itself amidst one's own becoming. Furthermore, according to Setian philosophy, it is only Remanifestation following Xeper, which transforms becoming into more Being. The temporary parts and energies of one's psycho-physical complex get harnessed to the permanent part of the self, according to one's conscious determination. So it is a transformed self that steps forward from the chaos, but one that is built upon the Core Self, therefore an advancement. Just one of many ways to view it.

I may be oversimplifying what you wrote (which sounds similar to what I remember from the ToS), but it seems like Remanifest in that sense is redundant and therefore unnecessary. Afterall, if one changes (Xepers), how can he be anything other than a changed being? For example, if someone Xepers by becoming a college graduate, isn’t it a little pointless to follow it up with “he is now a college graduate”?
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#78896 - 07/30/13 06:56 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Werbinox Offline
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"Understanding it" the way you do (not!) its no wonder it seems redundant to you. Xeper is not just any change, or any kind of change. One does not Xeper 'by becoming a college graduate', tho one indeed may become a college graduate As A Result of Xeper. And as you may (or may not) recall in your very brief time in the TOS, not every member worked with Remanifest. Some just ignored that part of it.
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#78899 - 07/30/13 11:12 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Werbinox]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
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A bit defensive, aren’t we?

Forget the college graduate example – if one becomes more than what he was, would it not be redundant to say he is now more than what he was? Back to my post, if one changes how can he be anything other than a changed being?
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#78901 - 07/30/13 11:20 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
SIN3 Offline
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I would say it's more like committing a personal change to muscle memory, thereby making it part of the Core-self, vs. Dynamic-self.

Does that make sense?

So the analogy used just deals in attaining knowledge, perhaps even acquiring certain skills but it doesn't mean a change in the core-self has occurred (years of study following a curriculum).
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#78902 - 07/31/13 05:48 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I would say it's more like committing a personal change to muscle memory, thereby making it part of the Core-self, vs. Dynamic-self.

Does that make sense?

So the analogy used just deals in attaining knowledge, perhaps even acquiring certain skills but it doesn't mean a change in the core-self has occurred (years of study following a curriculum).


It does. Ontology makes for difficult analogies contextually. I think one could express it in any of these terms. Being-Becoming as a symbiosis.
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#78904 - 07/31/13 06:44 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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I see that, especially if 'being' isn't broken down within context.

In example, there's levels of being (Ontology (static) - The quality or state of) and then being (adjective word (dynamic)) like 'being' an asshole. At your core you might be a pretty decent guy but have tendencies towards assholism. So when people say something like, "How can you stand that guy, he's such an asshole!" It's most likely core attributes they appreciate and take the Assholism with a grain of salt, personality vs. core attributes and values.

As far as opining what those changes are, I can see where it may seem redundant in using the lingo. Any number of terms can be used. When I say people don't change, events change... This deals more in Ontology, states of being human.


A contextual example:
Being an Implicit Atheist is at my core. Even if I were inducted into a brain-washing cult, any dynamic change would be in relation to survival traits. Any influences, torture, psychology techniques, etc. would be the dynamic (which could later be burned off). The only real core change that could be made would typically be re-manifested in the face of irrefutable evidence to support it. In Xeper, first would come the realization, then the Willful acceptance of self-evident truths.

At least, that's how I remember it. It's been years since I've read any ToS stuff.

So I can see where William is getting frustrated with the lack of an effectual model to convey meaning.
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#78907 - 07/31/13 08:04 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
William Wright Offline
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Actually, I was more frustrated by Werbinox 'being' an asshole when all I did was ask a question. Thanks for clearing things up.
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#78909 - 07/31/13 08:33 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
SIN3 Offline
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Some tend to get rather aggressive when they feel as though something they understand more fully is being misrepresented. It's an attachment issue which may even come across as being an ass.

 Quote:
one indeed may become a college graduate As A Result of Xeper. And as you may (or may not) recall in your very brief time in the TOS, not every member worked with Remanifest. Some just ignored that part of it.


I suppose this depends on what the underlying motivations were for joining the ToS. I was more interested in all the hub-bub and to gain access to certain information and (at that time) you had to join. So it may not have been a matter of ignoring it, maybe just a lack of real interest in the paradigm.

The Egyptian thing can get really passe too especially post Kemetics. Misappropriating Ancient Egyptian culture and becoming an arm-chair Historian re-writing history gets rather pretentious too, especially if you're not forthright about it.

Take for instance StarHawk's 'Reclaiming Tradition', she created a Mystery School that uses Myths to mediate lessons within the Tradition. She's right out with it, vs. passing off a re-written myth as the new 'History'. Mature adults appreciate that type of candor.

Anthropology isn't for everyone, especially if it doesn't coincide with personal feelings, thoughts and understandings. People have a tendency to bend the facts to fit their viewpoints.
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#78910 - 07/31/13 09:16 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Werbinox Offline
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A changed being is still not necessarily one who has experienced Xeper, if you understand what that concept / Word is. Without Xeper, there is no Remanifest, according to the concept and its progression. Change is just change, but change based upon the willed deliberation and "coming forth of the Core Self" is something else. Of course, if you consider the idea of a core self to be untenable or untrue, the whole thing is useless to you.
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#78911 - 07/31/13 09:32 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Werbinox Offline
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To some people it is fun to be an asshole. You are one of those to me, and should understand it. Learn to enjoy it, or don't ask me to play anymore. Also, maybe take the time to understand some things to more of a depth before diving into argumentation and irreverence of them, tho I see you as one who is in a hurry to get there cuz that is your "forte". If you had at least taken the time and effort to become Adept with TOS philosophy and methodology I might respect your critiques more, but you didn't even stick around long enough for that. As it is, I can see what you missed. If you want me to treat you as an intellectual equal on these subjects, earn it. Otherwise, pick a different subject, and we can see how the ball throws there ;\)

Edited by Werbinox (07/31/13 09:34 AM)
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#78915 - 07/31/13 02:54 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Werbinox]
William Wright Offline
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I wasn’t “diving into argumentation” or providing a critique. I was asking a question, as people tend to do sometimes, and you responded by being a hyper-sensitive jerk. Go away.
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#78917 - 07/31/13 03:23 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
SIN3 Offline
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Seems to be a particular bias towards you for not fully participating in the ToS and Re-manifest. May account for the reactionary responses (as well as other commentary).

Just an observation ;\)
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#78938 - 08/01/13 10:29 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
William Wright Offline
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My two cents on self-change: I'm a computer tech for the school system in my area, and on a wall in one of the schools is a sign quoting Aristotle: "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."

Want to change your life? Change your habits.
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#78940 - 08/01/13 11:55 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Dimitri Offline
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[Quick reply]
 Quote:
A changed being is still not necessarily one who has experienced Xeper, if you understand what that concept / Word is. Without Xeper, there is no Remanifest, according to the concept and its progression. Change is just change, but change based upon the willed deliberation and "coming forth of the Core Self" is something else. Of course, if you consider the idea of a core self to be untenable or untrue, the whole thing is useless to you.

It would seem redundant to uphold an ideological laden principle as "Xeper" (and its conjoined terms alike remanifestation) if the core "self" remains to be viewed as an unchanged/untouched source from which the praxis emanates. It would seem more credible (and was in my understanding) that the "core self" wasn't as fixed as you ( Werbinox) would make it seem to be. If I were to stretch the meaning of Xeper (in a philosophical sense) to the philosophical fields with the main theme of discussing "the core self", wouldn't this envelop a deconstructionist argument in disfavor of the idea of the existence of a "core self" by reason that the practice "dictates"/"hints" (by lack of better wording) a certain fluidity and non-dogmatic way of being?
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#78958 - 08/02/13 10:02 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Dimitri]
Werbinox Offline
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Im not sure I understand your question, but will take a crack at it anyhow \:\)

Do I seem to make the idea of a core self a 'fixed' thing? I didn't intend that, tho it does raise some interesting thoughts. Im not sure what it is, exactly, but I experience it in the maelstrom of choices life offers me, and know that, whatever it is, it has a more fixed, lasting character compared to my more fleeting passions and desires. Is it possible to change yourself in a way that gets you no closer to any kind of fulfillment and happiness than you had before? To exchange one set of 'habits', i.e. mechanical and oft-thoughtless, ritualistic actions, for another, equally mechanical, oft-thoughtless, ritualistic set? I know I have done that, and felt I had just traded one delusion for another. Conversely, I have made changes that seemed to clear a fog and open a new terrain of action before me, one that lead to a kind of evolution of my experience of self and life. So, there seems to be something more 'true' in me, something with a character I can recognize throughout the years of changes both great and small. Each change I can make that further aligns my day-to-day psyche with this "more true" thing within me, is what I understand as "Xeper", or - To Become; To Become More Myself, moving from delusion to a personal truth rather than from delusion to delusion.

How fixed is this core self? I don't know. I don't think anyone has ever lived who has perceived and Known the full parameters of what a core self might be. This lack of knowledge introduces a fluidity in how it is experienced. Lots of what I consider, and have considered, my "self", may be more a Medial self, or a self made up of easily effected, change-able, programmable things belonging more to a universal, archetypal human nature; i.e. belonging to everyone and not unique to me. How the core self, that unique combination of elements that seems to endure as "me" amidst all the flux, interacts with the medial parts of my psyche - possibly incorporating certain aspects into the core = transforming becoming into Being - is also a mystery, and definitely is experienced as a fluidity. But if these changes are added to the core self, then the core self can change while at the same time remaining essentially intact in its basic design. Kind of like DNA. Like a dance of static and dynamic quality, aiming for a tension-charged equilibrium that nevertheless must lose (or throw) its own balance off from time to time just so it can emerge stronger, like a worked out muscle, on the other side. And other such analogies apply here \:\)

I know by the fact that I can learn and grow that I can change, but it never changes me completely; I don't become a new person every time I change (in which case there would be no Remanifestation, only manifestation...manifestation, and so on) The changes that are meaningful, evolutionary (Xeper) are added to an already existing structure, which I consider a core self, without which the concept of personal evolution would be untenable. Memory clearly plays a key part, but what is that thing behind memory playing such a creative, organizational role?

Just some thoughts inspired by thinking about your question


Edited by Werbinox (08/02/13 10:06 AM)
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#78968 - 08/03/13 06:53 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Werbinox]
William Wright Offline
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Werbinox, first I’d like to apologize for calling you an asshole and a jerk. I was angry by your response to my question, but I could’ve reacted in a more productive way. I can understand why you may have perceived my question as a cynical jab at the ToS, as a brief perusal through my posts here would reveal such a pattern. But in this instance, it was a sincere question. As for me leaving the organization less than a year in, let me simply say that it wasn’t a decision I took lightly. Clearly I missed a lot by leaving when I did, and I make no claims of being “an intellectual equal” with you on ToS-related subject matter. That said, I think that I and others here may have something to gain by asking questions and even “diving into argumentation” from time to time.

Anyway, it does neither of us any good for there to be bad blood between us, so I’m calling a truce. In this spirit, I have something else to ask (and of course you are not obligated in any way to answer): If Xeper refers to a change in one’s “core self,” and determining that such a change has taken place would be difficult at best, how would one know if he has in fact Come Into Being? Although one could perhaps make such a determination over time, in the short term it would seem that a considerable amount of hope and second-guessing would be involved.
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#78972 - 08/03/13 08:33 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Werbinox]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
Memory clearly plays a key part, but what is that thing behind memory playing such a creative, organizational role?


This statement further places emphasis on the memory/muscle-memory aspect. What's behind the curtain pulling the strings? You can certainly take a face-plant right into Ontological debate.

There's been so much written on the subject of personality (dynamic), and our innate compulsions to just 'do' what the machine wants us to do (static) but the methods of achievement often reap little fruit.

As you stated it can often just be a trade off of one delusion for another. The path of study is often a sure way to do it all wrong. We allow thoughts to permeate and thus they become part of our memory. We can even delude ourselves into believing these are 'our' thoughts when in reality, we don't know what the hell we really think.

It's the kind of twiddling we do in our minds that leaves us tossing and turning at night, when what we really need is a decent night's sleep. It's no matter of happenstance that most of the great thinkers in the world discuss their own degradation into insanity.

There's so many parables one could use to represent the suffering we create for ourselves by knowing too much. As they say, ignorance is bliss. Personally, I think it's a key point in the Bible that people often miss. From Genesis to Revelations, we are at war with ourselves. I tend to see the core-self as our particular nature, the innate vs. what we layer on top of it.

Perhaps what distinguishes each of us is the particulars in our layering. It seems to be a process of continual peeling it back a layer at a time, while adding other layers. No matter how time passes, however long it takes, we are creating ourselves. Another aspect in deification.

 Quote:
Like a dance of static and dynamic quality, aiming for a tension-charged equilibrium that nevertheless must lose (or throw) its own balance off from time to time just so it can emerge stronger, like a worked out muscle, on the other side.


There's also an element of weakening the finer points that support the whole thing, which is why there must be a meticulous practice or else it all falls down like a house of cards.
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#78973 - 08/03/13 09:49 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: William Wright]
Werbinox Offline
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I agree with what you wrote in that first paragraph, and will be happy to dialogue with you in this spirit of understanding.

That is an excellent question, one that is not easy to answer. The best I can do at this point is to relate personal experience. Don Webb once referred to it as "finally catching my own bus", and that sums up nicely what it was like for me when I came to the realization that lead to my Recognition as an Adept in the TOS. There was such a clarity of exactly what I should do next, the specific course of action I should take to evolve my self, that there was no doubt. There was a certainty unlike my usual experience of trying things and launching experiments here and there, accompanied by an excitement and burst of energy that was at the same time calm, not at all manic. It was like meeting myself again after a long absence, and there was a "but of course, what the hell was I thinking" quality about it. Looking back on the lead up to it, I saw all sorts of signs adding up, like little puddles of water forming around my feet from a damn that was about to break and sweep me away. It made total sense, but I had to wait for the last of it to break thru. The real mystery to me was why I didn't see it sooner (this truth in myself that lead me out of a delusion) But there it is. It was a realization that helped me to change my life for the better. And I know there will be more in my future, if I keep working to break thru these other walls I have, which come with this 'being human' gig. That's the best way I can describe that particular experience. In contrast, seeming "breakthroughs" I've thought I had before had a fleeting, drug-like high to them, very manic, followed by a quick return to stasis when I realized they weren't really "the way" for me at all.

Have you had a similar experience in your own life, where you had a realization about a course of action you should take that left no doubt, and you changed your life with it?
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#78997 - 08/04/13 12:17 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Werbinox]
William Wright Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Werbinox

Have you had a similar experience in your own life, where you had a realization about a course of action you should take that left no doubt, and you changed your life with it?

I don't recall having any such epiphanies. What I am, or at least where I am, is largely due to determining where I wanted to be in life and working to get there. No big secret. I really like what I wrote earlier: Change your habits to change your life. It's simple and straightforward, and most importantly it works.

That's not a knock on your approach - not at all. You're doing what works for you, what resonates with you and what has yielded results, and I say more power to you.
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#80000 - 08/30/13 06:24 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Empire of Dread]
Claudia_ Offline
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To me, success is having found a way to get the most of what you aspire to have with the least amount of effort.

And by effort I mean having to force yourself to do things you'd rather not do to get what you want.

So, if your intelligent and you've found something you want to do or have in your life, and having found ways to make it as effortless as possible to obtain (and you obtain it) then you're a success.

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#80002 - 08/30/13 07:18 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Claudia_]
when7iseleven Offline
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I am a great believer in the maxim of minimum effort, maximum reward but for those real achievements I don't think there's anything as rewarding as working hard for something.

Somehow victory always tastes sweeter when you've had to use every power & every strength at your disposal to get something you really want.
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#80007 - 08/30/13 08:15 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: when7iseleven]
SIN3 Offline
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There's an element of Pride at work. There's plenty of easy ways that one's own pride will not allow.

There is something more satisfying about fulfilling your own prideful desires, the trick is finding the level which doesn't wander off into counter-productive pride.
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#80012 - 08/30/13 10:19 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Is it Satanic if I used principles of "Lesser Magic" to achieve something material? What is LBM vs. manipulation? Or as some frequently call it, "I-want-to-be-specialism."

Example: I focused my intention towards finding a job with benefits, good pay, a pension, and immediate success once employment was obtained. Check in all the boxes. After a month of looking I found a job fitting the description, and quickly rose above others despite being the most recent hire. I played it right. I exhibited all the qualities of a hard working, reliable employee. Along the way reinforcing that point without drawing attention to it. It worked in every aspect. My will manifested itself. Gold fucking star.

I can call it anything I want, but at the end of the day all I did was play into the tendencies of supervisors, and back it up with actual effort. I fucking earned it, manipulation was a fuel additive that improved efficiency and performance.

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#80026 - 08/30/13 07:00 PM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Well the first step was working your mind so your ass would follow. Call it what you like but it got you what you were after right?

Most 'Satanists' disenchanted with the Occult end up cynical reductionists. At least in my observation. Are you on a path to that sort of thing?


Edited by SIN3 (08/30/13 07:01 PM)
Edit Reason: fixed bad language structure
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#80037 - 08/31/13 01:30 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
Most 'Satanists' disenchanted with the Occult end up cynical reductionists. At least in my observation. Are you on a path to that sort of thing?


I wouldn't call it cynicism as much as skepticism. I have had this conversation with others and the response always tends towards "verification is in results", or as you put it, "you got what you were after."

I think the lens I view it through has a causal filter on it. I can't prove there is a link between A and B that operates within an empirical chain of cause and effect. It is an extraordinary claim lacking extraordinary evidence.

In mind it requires a "leap of faith" to assume there is a line connecting, unless the line is drawn outside the observational universe, which is equally hard to verify.

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#80039 - 08/31/13 02:16 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: CanisMachina42]
Claudia_ Offline
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 Quote:
I wouldn't call it cynicism as much as skepticism.


Really? Because the thing is, to much skepticism can make a person cynical. If skepticism leads to cynicism, why not skip the middle man and call them cynical.

As for it being an extraordinary claim, SIN3 did say it was an observation (not a claim).

So how could a claim be extraordinary if it was never a claim in the first place?

A claim implies certainty and the observation of a single person implies uncertainty.

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#80040 - 08/31/13 02:24 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Claudia_ Offline
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 Quote:

There's an element of Pride at work


Yes, I'd certainly agree with that. Although, say a persons pride derived from knowing they choose not to put in any effort to get what they want, yet still manage to get it.

There would no longer be the need to pride yourself with knowing you worked for it, because you can pride yourself with the opposite.

What can make a person more arrogant than knowing they can get what they want without even trying.

There is nothing wrong with this provided, as you said SIN3, that they don't take that arrogance far enough to make it counterproductive.

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#80041 - 08/31/13 02:45 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: when7iseleven]
334forwardspin Offline
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 Originally Posted By: when7iseleven

I am a great believer in the maxim of minimum effort, maximum reward but for those real achievements I don't think there's anything as rewarding as working hard for something.

Somehow victory always tastes sweeter when you've had to use every power & every strength at your disposal to get something you really want.


I can relate to this, in the sense of wanting my accomplishments to be legitimate. 'Work smarter, not harder' is an idea I'm always looking to use, as it makes it more likely to succeed, but at times an accomplishment attained in an easy way doesn't seem legitimate to me.

Essentially, success for me is looking for a combination of both a productive result, but also be an accomplishment few people can do/have done, and that I earned on my own merits.

In using the work smarter, not harder mentality, I would have to make sure that I am actually using a superior method to attain high level skills. Ultimately, those are going to be difficult to attain, otherwise they aren't really all that high level after all. Work smarter, not harder doesn't get you out of challenging work, but it takes away work for the sake of work, and ensures all that you do is effective.

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#80042 - 08/31/13 03:19 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
334forwardspin Offline
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Pride is essentially the driving force behind me wanting to achieve something more difficult, as is the case with a lot of people who want to be among the best in their chosen area. Naturally, this would not be something easy to do, because only a few people can be at the top.

The easiest ways for pride to become counter productive in my opinion are when a person is lying to themselves about the actual extent of their accomplishments and abilities, or when they take 'aim high' too far and shoot for irrational expectations and end up hurting their productivity while doing so. By irrational expectations, I mean things that are not reasonable expectations even from those who do reach the top. If you become frustrated by the failures you set yourself up for, it can hurt your productivity. In the case of lying to oneself, a person's ego may not be able to handle the truth about themselves, and they invent a lie to tell themselves they already are what they want to be, and keep themselves from actually becoming it. That, or they just think they're special and can succeed without doing what it takes to do so.

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#80045 - 08/31/13 03:37 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Claudia_]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Perhaps I was unclear, let me clarify. Sin3 posed a question as to whether or not I had become cynical in my opinion concerning the occult. Which I answered in the opening line of my response.

The remainder of my post was an elaboration as to what my specific criticism is, and why I am skeptical. The "extraordinary claim" being the existence of magic.

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#80051 - 08/31/13 04:08 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: CanisMachina42]
Claudia_ Offline
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When i replied i was referring to skepticism in a broader sense.

As in, if someone were to adopt a overly skeptical way of thinking about the world, it would eventually get to a point were that person sees the world (where nothing and no one can be trusted) as a horrible and untrustworthy place.

Skepticism is a good thing, in fact it's vital, provided it's in moderation (and that your skeptical about things that make sense be skeptical about, like magic).

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#80054 - 08/31/13 07:16 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
 Quote:
Most 'Satanists' disenchanted with the Occult end up cynical reductionists. At least in my observation. Are you on a path to that sort of thing?


I wouldn't call it cynicism as much as skepticism. I have had this conversation with others and the response always tends towards "verification is in results", or as you put it, "you got what you were after."

I think the lens I view it through has a causal filter on it. I can't prove there is a link between A and B that operates within an empirical chain of cause and effect. It is an extraordinary claim lacking extraordinary evidence.

In mind it requires a "leap of faith" to assume there is a line connecting, unless the line is drawn outside the observational universe, which is equally hard to verify.


Indeed, at the end of the day only you can decide how much any of it matters in lieu of your Point B Result. In that decision making process, you take into account the 'ideas' of others and may very well adopt them as your own believing they were yours in the first place.

Skepticism is healthy and in many cases crucial. An over-analytic mind may lead to that disenchantment I mentioned.

 Quote:
I have had this conversation with others and the response always tends towards "verification is in results", or as you put it, "you got what you were after."


And yet, you're still asking the question.
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#80055 - 08/31/13 07:20 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
The "extraordinary claim" being the existence of magic.


It will just lead to a Semantics discussion. What is magic?

How extra-ordinary is it really?

Unless your point B involves resurrecting a dead-horse to beat it continually, I think you have your answer.
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#80058 - 08/31/13 08:40 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
It will just lead to a Semantics discussion. What is magic?

How extra-ordinary is it really?

Unless your point B involves resurrecting a dead-horse to beat it continually, I think you have your answer.


It seems suspension of disbelief may be in order here. I will accept point B, no problem. Yet when the notion that it may require the slightest bit of "faith" becomes apparent I will reject it as false. At that point the semantics discussion changes to "what is faith?", and enters an infinite loop.

Still, here I am beating the dead horse, maybe I have faith I can reanimate it if I hit it hard enough.

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#80060 - 08/31/13 08:55 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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What's wrong with Faith? This is a question you have to wrangle with. I think people confuse 'Blind-faith', with the general sense of Faith. Faith is derived from Latin fides to imply trust and confidence.

You have Faith. If you examined many of the things you accept as true and real, you face your Faith.

Take for instance the reliance on Science to substantiate causal outcomes. Even in your most skeptical moments, aren't you examining the actions you took to show confidence in your abilities? Having Faith in oneself.





Edited by SIN3 (08/31/13 08:55 AM)
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#80061 - 08/31/13 09:13 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: SIN3]
Zerophopia Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
What's wrong with Faith? This is a question you have to wrangle with. I think people confuse 'Blind-faith', with the general sense of Faith. Faith is derived from Latin fides to imply trust and confidence.

You have Faith. If you examined many of the things you accept as true and real, you face your Faith.

Take for instance the reliance on Science to substantiate causal outcomes. Even in your most skeptical moments, aren't you examining the actions you took to show confidence in your abilities? Having Faith in oneself.


I've made this argument before. And while it's tight, so to speak, it's always going to be hit or miss. Rational folks don't like the "man behind the curtain". Shhhhhhhhh . . . you're breaking my FAITH. LOL, exactly.

Any arche, whichever you choose to have FAITH in, is ultimately without substance. Put that shit in your pipe and smoke it . . .

JK
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#80062 - 08/31/13 09:20 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Zerophopia]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1164
Loc: San Diego, CA
 Quote:
What's wrong with Faith? This is a question you have to wrangle with. I think people confuse 'Blind-faith', with the general sense of Faith. Faith is derived from Latin fides to imply trust and confidence.


There is the crux of contention and misinterpretation, omitting definition 1 for definition 2.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.


It seems the lens may be cloudier then I care to acknowledge. For now, it is worth further examination.

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#80064 - 08/31/13 09:41 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
It seems the lens may be cloudier then I care to acknowledge. For now, it is worth further examination.


All you need is proper context. Reference Texts are often the bane to understanding. Language is more than words. Words themselves are magic. They are carriers. A simple word such as Faith can either make you or break you insofar as the psyche's willingness to bend like the reed or snap under pressure.
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#80065 - 08/31/13 09:45 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Zerophopia]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
Any arche, whichever you choose to have FAITH in, is ultimately without substance. Put that shit in your pipe and smoke it . .


Ha, nice word play.

Most are just defending Strawmen, hardly secure from the start. The wolf huffs and puffs and eventually blows that shit down. Some, may take a little longer than others. Even the strength of brick and mortar wears down in time. Such is the case with most memeplexi-based beliefs.
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#80126 - 09/02/13 07:35 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: Claudia_]
when7iseleven Offline
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Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 200
Loc: High Peak, UK
 Originally Posted By: Claudia_

Although, say a persons pride derived from knowing they choose not to put in any effort to get what they want, yet still manage to get it.


From my experience these people do not exist & if they do I'd suggest they probably have very low levels of expectation. Moreover, they've probably convinced themseleves that what they've got is exactly what they want so why bother striving for anything more. Obvioulsy there are some people that give the impression of things just coming too them, but that is a part of their illsuion with them probably being the hardest workers of all. The Harder I Work the Luckier I Get is a saying attributed to Arnie Palmer, though I'm not sure it was him that said it kind of underlines my point.

I'm sure this goes across other fields as well but in my many years of working in sales I've met dozens of potentially good salesmen that early in their career have gone through a few month purple patch of luck where indeed stuff did just seem to happen with no real effort, followed by them beleiving themselves to be the greatest salesmen that ever walked the planet. Resting on their laurels they'll blame everyone & everything but themselves as to why they've never sold another thing; the one thing they'll never question is the most important of all & that's the work ethic. The few I have met subsequently have either been driving my taxi or flipping my burgers.

The first Sales Manager I ever had lived by two maxims; the first being Plan Your Work & Work Your Plan, if You Do Not Fail Your Plan Your Plan Cannot Fail You & the second was simply Positive Mental Attitude. Knowing what you want from life or where you want to be in life is obvioulsy important but crucial in achieving either is planning meticulously how you're going to get there; how many times do I hear people say I wanna be this or I wanna do that with clearly no plan of how to be it or how to get it? If they do have any king of plan there's usually a B & C version as well; wrong........if you have a Plan B then there's not enough thought been put into Plan A!

Positive Mental Attitude I suppose, though I've never really thought of it as such, is Lesser Magic & the effect it can have on whatever you're trying to achive is truly...........well try it & see for yourself. The guy I mentioned previoulsy had just about everything he owned monogrammed with the letters PMA & if any of his salesmen screwed a sale up he'd drum it into them, lierally: P (whack to the head), M (whack to the head), A (whack to the head). They don't make managers like they used to.

Anyway, apologies for the ramble but in my opinion anything that's worth having need to be worked for but once you've got it the real hard work starts in keeping hold of it.
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#80129 - 09/02/13 07:54 AM Re: Satanism and real live achievments [Re: when7iseleven]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
anything that's worth having need to be worked for but once you've got it the real hard work starts in keeping hold of it.


Ain't that the truth. This little anecdote speaks to me.

Strategy is only minutia in the war, you have to actually go to battle to test it. You win some, you lose some and if you're on a winning streak it can become a delusion of things coming easy. Reality will smack you right across the face as when you lose. Especially if you're on a path of losing it all, it can and will slip away from you; if you don't do something about it. You've deviated from Plan A.
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