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#56551 - 07/04/11 11:44 PM The crucifix: The Brutal Truth
battlescar22 Offline
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Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 10
The cross or Crucifix has shown up throughout pagan history long before jesus died on one, however, this seems to be the most recognized aspect of the cross. The Crucifix has become the official symbol of christianity. Which i cant find but strange. To them its a beautiful symbol, a symbol of gods love and forgiveness, however, when you really break it down, its a symbol of torture and pain. Jesus (if he ever did exist) suffered on a cross before dying, we put crosses on tombstones. (Which i always found strange, who cares what religion the dead was?) Alexander the Great mudered 2000 Tyrian captives by means of crucifixtion. It was usually reserved for the worst crimes such as, treason, murder, and theft. So im confused, why would a religion that claims to be peaceful, use a symbol that has such a dark history. Do christians just forget about the history and fill in the blanks with their crap?

-22 .



Edited by battlescar22 (07/04/11 11:45 PM)

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#56552 - 07/05/11 12:38 AM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: battlescar22]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3790
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well, the Christians like their suffering, and like to be reminded of the suffering ol jeez did for them. It reminds them how they owe everything to the J man. That is where their symbol gets its emotional power.

The reality of the situation is that the cross is an ancient pagan symbol that sort of got synthesized into the memeplex somewhere around the 2nd century. Were there such a man as described in the gospels living in the times described therein(highly unlikely), the cross he would have died on would have been either a T, a stake, or a tree, as per roman tradition.
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#56553 - 07/05/11 03:54 AM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Dan_Dread]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
Christian denote their suffering with holiness. It some how makes them closer to god.
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#56558 - 07/05/11 12:09 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Zach_Black]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
OK. Cutting to the chase, and forgetting which book on Catholic symbology I read it in some 40 years ago (my sister turned Catholic after a back seat boogie went wrong and she had to give her kid a last name)... the Crucifix does symbolize the suffering of Jesus on the cross in atonement for the sins of the world, BUT there is another component of the symbol of their religious figurehead's torture.

Simply stated, it's an exhortation of the laity to consider, "If Jesus was willing to suffer this for HIS faith, what are YOU willing to endure?"

The line from Sympathy for the Devil by The Rolling Stones relates here. "I was round when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain." Where the Stones made it almost sinister in its meaning, its original context was in the form of a question Catholic priests often asked when one of their flocks complained about their lot in life. "Were you there when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain?" The meaning: "Buck up. Compared to what Jesus suffered, what you're going through is nothing."
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#56559 - 07/05/11 06:15 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Jake999]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Simply stated, it's an exhortation of the laity to consider, "If Jesus was willing to suffer this for HIS faith, what are YOU willing to endure?"


In the name of Satanism:

Whenever I see a crucified figure of Christ, I cannot help thinking of the gap that lies between Christianity and Satanism. This gap is symbolic of the division between the both of the philosophies.

In Christianity, crucifixion is needed. Corporeality requires a violent Death, and as soon as this is done; resurrection must take place in one form or another: for they go together. The Dead must be resurrected, for without it Destruction has no meaning whatsoever. Christian symbolism has much to do with the suffering of humankind. The crucifixion is the climax of all suffering.

Satanism, also, speaks and acknowledge suffering and its climax is the realization that there is no divinity except the Self which remains intact under pressure. Christ carries his suffering to the end of Earthly Life whereas Satanism puts an end to it while living and afterward goes on preaching Satanic Principles/Tenets that have to do with the Self and Knowledge until the Satanist reaches moribund. The Self stands upright whereas a Dead body rests horizontally flacid.

This gives the inverse Pentagram new meaning. The Pentagram carries notions of immovability and solidity. This is the securest position a person can assume while living. A standing position generally suggests a fighting Self either defensive or offensive. It gives one the feeling of personal importance born of individuality and Force. To stand up means that one is ready for action, fighting and overpowering. For instance, it implies that someone is standing opposed to you who may be ready to strike you down, if you do not strike him/her down first.

Sedit from Native America



Edited by paolo sette (07/05/11 06:16 PM)
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#56573 - 07/06/11 02:49 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: paolo sette]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 857
Loc: Nashville
If I was a Christian and, therefore, taking the Christian myth seriously, here’s one question I would have:

If Jesus was indeed all human (as well as all God), subject to the same human frailties as the rest of us, and if he knew all along that his main purpose for becoming a human was to die a slow, agonizing death nailed to a cross, how could he have dealt with that reality as a child? Even as an adult, I think I’d end up in the loony bin if I knew that such a death awaited me.

But I guess Christians don’t need to struggle with questions such as that. All they need to know is “God said it, I believe it and that settles it.” So much easier that way.
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#56579 - 07/06/11 04:45 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: William Wright]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Well William I think you hit on an interesting point. I would submit that xtianity is so totally deluted with dogmatic nonsense and that it is those delusions that drive the whole faith.

Their own logic systems brings up a number of questions that they themselves cannot answer:
How can an all powerful being assume a human form?
If god is all knowing and all powerful and loving why would this all powerful being allow the existence of "evil"?
Don't the ten commandments and the rest of the old testament have something in there about not worshiping men or creating things with likeness of the "heavenlies"?

These questions reveal that the xtianity that has survived into modern times was never based on any true system of logic and reason. This explains their adoration for what in ancient times would have been the equivalent of an electric chair. Looking at the idea that "the gods of the previous age become the demons of the next" the cross is almost the reverese of that. That is to say that a symbol that stood for tremendous and grotesque suffering has become deified in modern times.


And on a side note I am always amused by statements like “God said it, I believe it and that settles it.” when by their own system of belief the only words god spoke to or gave to man are the ten commandments the rest is entirely authored by men. You have a dumb religion when its followers don't even understand what they believe.

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#56580 - 07/06/11 05:30 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Meph9]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Meph9
How can an all powerful being assume a human form?


Through kenosis (Self-emptying).

 Originally Posted By: Meph9
If god is all knowing and all powerful and loving why would this all powerful being allow the existence of "evil"?
Don't the ten commandments and the rest of the old testament have something in there about not worshiping men or creating things with likeness of the "heavenlies"?


To see things as the neteru (Set) sees them is to see them under the aspect of eternity: An infinite extent of time in which every event is future at one time, present at another, past at another. However, all human evaluation is conditioned by time and relativity. It is difficult for ordinary humans "to see a world in a grain of sand, and heavens in a wild flower". To the human senses, a grain of sand is not the whole world nor is a wild flower in a corner of a field a firmament. You live in a world of discrimination and your enthusiasm rises from the consideration of particulars. You fail to see them "evenly" or "uniformly".

Beyond good and Evil.

Ciao.
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#56585 - 07/06/11 10:09 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Meph9]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Here’s my own experience with the Christians.

I was a baptised member of a congregation of the International Churches of Christ (Boston Movement) under Kip McKean for about six months during the early 1990’s.

At the time I joined this group I was young, rather naïve and looking for the herd based way of solving my problems instead of taking personal responsibility. I was also looking to find out more about me by doing something and seeing how I would react to it. That’s how I explain my involvement.

The ICOC was a virulent or extreme form of evangelical Christianity and they have been correctly described as a rather dangerous cult by quite a few people. The below link will provide some info for interested members:

http://www.reveal.org/

These guys had a number of classic techniques they used to gain control and keep people in line.

(This bears a tenuous relation with what Jake said above about the priests) one method of control the ICOC used was to hand the new person a two page piece of writing, which described in vivid excruciating detail the sort of torture Christ went through just prior to and up to and including the crucifixion.

The idea was that one would read this monstrous thing and feel “convicted” by this reading. Or in other words, one would feel a deep sense of guilt, because this torture had been endured and this sacrifice had been made for the reader.

I don’t necessarily want to discuss the psychology of the person who needs this crucifixion story and feels convicted, or inspired, or redeemed by this story. I think Friedrich Nietzsche did that well enough. There’s no doubt, at least in my mind, that it is an ignoble and horrifying thing for the human mind to dredge up and be convicted by. Rather disgusting indeed.

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#56586 - 07/06/11 10:11 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Meph9]
Nyte Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
And if you explained it to them Meph you'd get the normal response...."And the Devil will know the bible like the back of his hand." Yep, something like that's in there too. Or so I've been told. \:D
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#56601 - 07/07/11 09:47 AM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Meph9]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Meph9
Don't the ten commandments and the rest of the old testament have something in there about not worshiping men or creating things with likeness of the "heavenlies"?
[...]
You have a dumb religion when its followers don't even understand what they believe.


If you go read about Exodus 19ish, you'll see that when Moses came down the first time with the tablets with "the ten commandments", he lost his temper and smashed them. About Exodus 31-34ish, you will see that the second set of tablets, the ones that got shown around, contained ten different commandments.

 Originally Posted By: Meph9
This explains their adoration for what in ancient times would have been the equivalent of an electric chair.


Heh, dude that's awesome - I need to go find a good picture of an electric chair now ...
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#56608 - 07/07/11 12:58 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Meph9]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 857
Loc: Nashville
 Originally Posted By: Meph9
If god is all knowing and all powerful and loving why would this all powerful being allow the existence of "evil"?

Christians would say it is because God wants mankind to have free will, so that loving and serving God is a choice. However, this raises more questions:

Is God bound by his system? If not, how could a God so loving that he is the very definition of love live with himself knowing that the vast majority of his human creation is burning in a lake of fire, and he has the power to rescue them? On the other hand, if he is bound by his system, wouldn’t that make God subservient to his system and, therefore, not all-powerful? If God and his system are one, doesn't that reduce God to a mere collection of rules?

Do Christians in heaven have free will? If so, isn’t it practically inevitable that sometime during the course of eternity they will fuck up? What happens to them then? Do they get a timeout? Does God send them to hell?

So many questions. It’s an entertaining, if ultimately pointless, exercise.
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#56619 - 07/07/11 08:58 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: William Wright]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
So many questions. It’s an entertaining, if ultimately pointless, exercise.


A Satanist would look at your posts and say,

A brief synopsis:

When William talks about an impassable gap ("having many questions") and points wherein William is made to turn back, William does not know that by this very talk he is actually crossing the impassable gap to find himself unknowingly on the other side. It is due to William's discriminating habit of thought that the impassable is always left on the other side while he is actually there. William is possessed of the habit of looking at Reality by dividing it into two. Even when he has in actuality the thing he spends time in discussing, and then finally comes to the conclusion that he has it not. It is all due to William's habit of splitting one solid Reality into two, and the result is that his "have" is "no have". His "have not" is "no have not". While William is actually passing, William insists that the gap is impassable.

You're there, William.

 Originally Posted By: Nyte
...."And the Devil will know the bible like the back of his hand."


;\)


Edited by paolo sette (07/07/11 08:58 PM)
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#56620 - 07/07/11 09:23 PM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: Autodidact]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
 Originally Posted By: Meph9
Don't the ten commandments and the rest of the old testament have something in there about not worshiping men or creating things with likeness of the "heavenlies"?
[...]
You have a dumb religion when its followers don't even understand what they believe.


If you go read about Exodus 19ish, you'll see that when Moses came down the first time with the tablets with "the ten commandments", he lost his temper and smashed them. About Exodus 31-34ish, you will see that the second set of tablets, the ones that got shown around, contained ten different commandments.


Do not push the Old Testament.

The putative Biblical God is said to have given His name to Moses on Mount Sinai as "I am that I am". This is the most profound utterance, for the Christian religions start from it. This is the same as Christ's saying, "I am." That is, he is putatively eternity itself. Therefore, while Abraham is in time, Christ "was" and not "is".

A contradiction.

Those who live in the light of eternity always are never subjected to the becoming of "was" and "will be".

the-Darkness-Bringer


Edited by paolo sette (07/07/11 09:24 PM)
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tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
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#56636 - 07/08/11 10:35 AM Re: The crucifix: The Brutal Truth [Re: paolo sette]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
I begin to suspect you are a Turing Machine, Paolo. This is indeed a novel approach, as the natural assumption is that a computer program would be able to at least stay on point, or, failing that, go generalized. Such sustained dialogue that insists on remaining firmly in left field must certainly come from a human.

Nevertheless, it amuses me to respond.

 Originally Posted By: paolo sette
Do not push the Old Testament.


Since a vast amount of modern Western society is (at least indirectly) based on it (eg, the ten commandments), and a large subset of the population believe a good portion of what's in it, it seems unwise not to understand it.

Regarding 'was' vs. 'is': Deriving ... well, anything, really, from the differences in English nuances between two phrases that have gone through multiple translations is almost certain folly. Both break down to the same thing: "I'm God, and you will obey me."
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