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#56576 - 07/06/11 04:04 PM Some criticisms/questions for Satanists
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
First I want to commend the members of this forum for the high quality of the discussions here. I am not exactly a Satanist, but I have found nothing that comes closer to my own perspective. Here are a few questions/criticisms of Satanism that come to mind, which I will bravely post despite my total newbie status.

Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations? I use the word “Cosmism” for a religion I have invented, which is a kind of Lovecraftian Cosmicism/Cosmic Satanism/Sithism. What I envision is a cosmic religion suitable for our entire dark universe, based more in science and science fiction than in medieval Christian mythology.

Secondly, isn’t the idea of self-deification almost Christian in its impossible idealism? As a Cosmicist, I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe. Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance? Isn’t self-deification just another form of self-delusion?

Finally, does anyone here honestly believe that “magic” can produce tangible results in the objective world, or is it just a form of theater and psychological manipulation? I come to this forum from the perspective of a somewhat mystical ex-scientist, but the obsession with occult “workings” is the aspect of the Left Hand Path that I am least impressed by. As theater I have no problem with it, but as a means of manipulating the Cosmos it seems quite primitive and ignorant to me.


Edited by Sean the Mystic (07/06/11 04:09 PM)
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56577 - 07/06/11 04:30 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
You might want to actually learn what the hell Satanism IS and what self deification entails before you start making assumptions. And ALL of this has been discussed ad nauseum in the Forums.

Do research and save yourself and US time.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56584 - 07/06/11 09:58 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations?


Long story short-- the Left Hand Path is all about seeing beyond opposites, not getting hung up on them. We employ such connotations deliberately to our own ends.

 Quote:
I use the word “Cosmism” for a religion I have invented, which is a kind of Lovecraftian Cosmicism/Cosmic Satanism/Sithism. What I envision is a cosmic religion suitable for our entire dark universe, based more in science and science fiction than in medieval Christian mythology.


Isn't it a bit overkill to go through all the trouble of building a "religion" just to define your current personal views? Maybe we've found someone to top Mabon...

 Quote:
Secondly, isn’t the idea of self-deification almost Christian in its impossible idealism?


If you think "self-deification" means transforming into a comet-wielding demiuge, then yes... Otherwise, self-deification means that the individual self is the highest authority, rather than any external god/ideal/abstract. Again, it's all in the words. Whether the given definitions are useful or not is merely a personal matter.

 Quote:
As a Cosmicist, I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe. Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance?


I more or less agree here. This point is actually a focus of my more "mystical" attitudes, as I view Satan as a numinously-charged name for the principle of chaos and cosmic entropy.

 Quote:
As theater I have no problem with it, but as a means of manipulating the Cosmos it seems quite primitive and ignorant to me.


Most Satanists here will tell you it is merely psychodrama... heck, you could have just read TSB and figured that out.


Edited by The Zebu (07/06/11 10:00 PM)
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#56588 - 07/07/11 03:04 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
I echo Jake's sentiments, but I would like to address the first two of your questions, nevertheless.

 Quote:
Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations? I use the word “Cosmism” for a religion I have invented, which is a kind of Lovecraftian Cosmicism/Cosmic Satanism/Sithism. What I envision is a cosmic religion suitable for our entire dark universe, based more in science and science fiction than in medieval Christian mythology.


The choice of "Satanism" as the name is significant, especially upon reading The Satanic Bible, as has been suggested. Keyword: "adversarial". Oh, and you might want to excise the word "spirituality".

 Quote:
As a Cosmicist, I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe. Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance? Isn’t self-deification just another form of self-delusion?


The problem with this outlook is that if it is the way one truly feels, one had better just phone it in. Yes, the universe is awe-inspiring in its incomprehensible vastness, but considering that due to current technological constraints, humans only have access to their "own little corner" as it were, the question then is, how do you seek significance in your own life (IF you do at all)? I see the vastness of the universe and all the possibilities that entails fascinating rather than a reflection of my own insignificance. As far as the universe is concerned, I am insignificant, but that does not mean that my life is insignificant to me or to those I affect, for good or ill.

Think of it this way: Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Mozart, Beethoven and Darwin (to give a few examples) all had the same "cosmic insignificance" as you or I, but look at what they accomplished.
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The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#56607 - 07/07/11 11:45 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
 Quote:
Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance?

No, they usually don't. Minding your own business is a large part of Satanism. The Cosmic Insignificance Of Man is definitely far beyond your or my business.

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#56611 - 07/07/11 03:06 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Originally Posted By: Sean the Mystic

Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations? I use the word “Cosmism” for a religion I have invented.... based more in science and science fiction than in medieval Christian mythology.


So you've picked some obscure bullshit to name 'your' philosophy which has the explicative power of the words 'tension sheet' based on a different paradigm and that is better how exactly? The philosophy as it currently stands was codified in the 60s a very religious time. Since then it's become a brand for sticking it to the man and thinking and living free. Why not use a well known brand? I guarantee you this - long after your 'Cosmicism' or whatever shit has been forgotten people will still understand, and rally under the banner of, Satanism

 Quote:

Secondly, isn’t the idea of self-deification almost Christian in its impossible idealism? As a Cosmicist, I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe. Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance? Isn’t self-deification just another form of self-delusion?


So basically your cosmicism philosophy is, "We're small and insignificant". The Satanic philosophy is I am the absolute arbiter of my own life and it gets the significance that I and no other external causal abstraction gives it. I have problems with the term 'self deification' purely because I find it unncesary but the idea at it's heart is the core of Satanism. Striving for the statement: 'I am the highest authority in my world over my thoughts and deeds' to become 'true'.

 Quote:

Finally, does anyone here honestly believe that “magic” can produce tangible results in the objective world


To the extent that someone acts on the emotional and psychological catharsis absolutely. Just because it doesn't operate by a 'mystical force' doesn't really make it any less useful in the 'objective world' now does it?

Nice robe by the way.

MF.

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#56613 - 07/07/11 05:20 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: MindFux]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: MindFux

long after your 'Cosmicism' or whatever shit has been forgotten people will still understand, and rally under the banner of, Satanism

I'm not sure I agree with this. If Satanism is defined (symbolically at least) in relation to a religion as provincial as Christianity, then its appeal will be limited. Does an Atheist or a Chinese Taoist or an alien from Sirius care about Satan? To me Lovecraft's vision is far vaster and more universal than the Christian/Satanist mythos, which is what I'm arguing for.

 Originally Posted By: MindFux

So basically your cosmicism philosophy is, "We're small and insignificant". The Satanic philosophy is I am the absolute arbiter of my own life and it gets the significance that I and no other external causal abstraction gives it.

Yes, and there's not necessarily any contradiction. Lovecraft's conclusion in the face of our cosmic insignificance is the rather Satanic "only egotism exists," but he would probably say that this is just a form of self-delusion we use to keep ourselves from going mad.

 Originally Posted By: MindFux

Nice robe by the way.

It's actually just a cheap hoodie, but it works until I buy a proper Sith robe. \:\/
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56614 - 07/07/11 05:38 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Three Words. Cult of Cthulhu

http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/

Run.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56615 - 07/07/11 05:43 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So what is the net value of this cosmicism? What is its significance in real life? I mean, thinking you're small and insignificant is all good and well, unless you're with a naked chick of course then it is not advised, but what does it add in life? Fatalism?

D.

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#56616 - 07/07/11 06:05 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Jake999]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Three Words. Cult of Cthulhu

http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/

Run.

I've spoken to Venger Satanis, but his Cult is basically just Satanism with green tentacle motifs. He doesn't really get what the Lovecraft Mythos is about. Anyway I can see that you are somewhat hostile, and I'm not interested in fighting with a senior member or trying to tear down your religion. But with all due respect, if Satanists don't want to engage in adversarial/educational discussions of these issues and just want to shoe away newbies, then I'm not sure what the point of this forum is.
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56617 - 07/07/11 07:41 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
The forums answer virtually every question you've posed. You COULD do a little research. Expend a little effort.

It is not our duty nor responsibility to spoon feed you.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56618 - 07/07/11 08:39 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Clicks Offline
member


Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
Check it, dude. You've got your shit wrong. Go read TSB and beyond and and correct yourself. If you think your Star Wars inspired religion is better, then so be it. Live it. But if you want to inspire more adversarial/educational discussion, at least know what you're talking about. You really do seem like you just read up Satanism on Wikipedia and got the horribly flawed layman's version of it. So, read, then come back with the facts.

Edited by Clicks (07/07/11 08:39 PM)
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#56622 - 07/07/11 10:14 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



As the other guys said - you can get the knowledge from reading the good threads here and reading LaVey and other good works.

I have some of my own thoughts though as you seem to want/need it.

In Relation to Self-deification

I might change the wording a little, if I may: how about the word I - theism, instead of the word self-deification.

The meaning of I –theism needs to be understood correctly I think - I-theism is not to be understood in a metaphysical sense, but rather in an ethical sense.

In Satanism, Atheism is a first necessary step towards an appreciation of reality, and the adoption of I-theism, within the context of balance, the final logical step in properly addressing reality in practical terms.

In Relation to Magic

I personally regard magic as an important component of Satanism, but I think magic itself needs to be understood correctly. I have my own views, which have been influenced by what I do and by my particular reading of the great black magician’s.

It serves a human need for ritual and dogma, but is more than this for me.

I regard Greater Magic as a means of articulating/expressing or developing/manipulating and ideally projecting a possible and personal blueprint, or picture, or vision within an appropriate language or system of meaning, drawing on tools or objects, within a specified space.

I see black magical ritual or ceremony engaged in by Hitler in his mass addresses, described in Triumph of the Will for instance.

I see personal blueprints described as total environments, where players engage in potential black magical games with objects/tools appropriate to those environments and hence essential or intrinsic to those blueprints.

I also see black magical ritual taking place when one acts out the essence of a picture or vision through emotional expression with the use of tools in a dedicated space.

There are other ways, but these are a few which occur to me now.

Anyway magic is a serious business, I think, and is not intended to be fooled around with or used everyday.

In Relation to Cosmicism

I have watched the Star Wars movies many times and can appreciate an attempt to establish a Sithian type religion, or a religion of the dark side of the force. It’s good stuff.

I also like Lovecraft and his picture of reality.

If this religion suits your needs and satisfies your desires, then go for it - Indulge to your hearts content.

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#56625 - 07/08/11 12:30 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2516
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I have watched the Star Wars movies many times and can appreciate an attempt to establish a Sithian type religion, or a religion of the dark side of the force. It’s good stuff.

I wrote The Dark Side to explore the interrelationships of initiation (the Jedi), political systems (the Empire and the Rebellion), and military strategy (the various forces, their capabilities, and their strategic & tactical options). It was a very interesting exercise, and of course brought to mind several of George Lucas' original inspirations, such as LOTR and Asimov's Foundation.

On the other hand, I have a maliciously soft spot in my heart for this.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#56626 - 07/08/11 01:23 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
Thank you for that story Michael Aquino, it looks very interesting. I agree that a real Sith religion is a great idea, but I suppose you would get sued by Lucas if you tried it.

I actually wrote a little story yesterday wherein I am contacted through the Multiverse by the last of the Sith Lords, with instructions to found a new Sith Order on my homeworld in preparation for a new Galactic Empire. I thought it was pretty clever; you can read it here.


Edited by Sean the Mystic (07/08/11 02:04 AM)
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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