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#56576 - 07/06/11 04:04 PM Some criticisms/questions for Satanists
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
First I want to commend the members of this forum for the high quality of the discussions here. I am not exactly a Satanist, but I have found nothing that comes closer to my own perspective. Here are a few questions/criticisms of Satanism that come to mind, which I will bravely post despite my total newbie status.

Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations? I use the word “Cosmism” for a religion I have invented, which is a kind of Lovecraftian Cosmicism/Cosmic Satanism/Sithism. What I envision is a cosmic religion suitable for our entire dark universe, based more in science and science fiction than in medieval Christian mythology.

Secondly, isn’t the idea of self-deification almost Christian in its impossible idealism? As a Cosmicist, I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe. Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance? Isn’t self-deification just another form of self-delusion?

Finally, does anyone here honestly believe that “magic” can produce tangible results in the objective world, or is it just a form of theater and psychological manipulation? I come to this forum from the perspective of a somewhat mystical ex-scientist, but the obsession with occult “workings” is the aspect of the Left Hand Path that I am least impressed by. As theater I have no problem with it, but as a means of manipulating the Cosmos it seems quite primitive and ignorant to me.


Edited by Sean the Mystic (07/06/11 04:09 PM)
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56577 - 07/06/11 04:30 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
You might want to actually learn what the hell Satanism IS and what self deification entails before you start making assumptions. And ALL of this has been discussed ad nauseum in the Forums.

Do research and save yourself and US time.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56584 - 07/06/11 09:58 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations?


Long story short-- the Left Hand Path is all about seeing beyond opposites, not getting hung up on them. We employ such connotations deliberately to our own ends.

 Quote:
I use the word “Cosmism” for a religion I have invented, which is a kind of Lovecraftian Cosmicism/Cosmic Satanism/Sithism. What I envision is a cosmic religion suitable for our entire dark universe, based more in science and science fiction than in medieval Christian mythology.


Isn't it a bit overkill to go through all the trouble of building a "religion" just to define your current personal views? Maybe we've found someone to top Mabon...

 Quote:
Secondly, isn’t the idea of self-deification almost Christian in its impossible idealism?


If you think "self-deification" means transforming into a comet-wielding demiuge, then yes... Otherwise, self-deification means that the individual self is the highest authority, rather than any external god/ideal/abstract. Again, it's all in the words. Whether the given definitions are useful or not is merely a personal matter.

 Quote:
As a Cosmicist, I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe. Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance?


I more or less agree here. This point is actually a focus of my more "mystical" attitudes, as I view Satan as a numinously-charged name for the principle of chaos and cosmic entropy.

 Quote:
As theater I have no problem with it, but as a means of manipulating the Cosmos it seems quite primitive and ignorant to me.


Most Satanists here will tell you it is merely psychodrama... heck, you could have just read TSB and figured that out.


Edited by The Zebu (07/06/11 10:00 PM)
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«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#56588 - 07/07/11 03:04 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
I echo Jake's sentiments, but I would like to address the first two of your questions, nevertheless.

 Quote:
Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations? I use the word “Cosmism” for a religion I have invented, which is a kind of Lovecraftian Cosmicism/Cosmic Satanism/Sithism. What I envision is a cosmic religion suitable for our entire dark universe, based more in science and science fiction than in medieval Christian mythology.


The choice of "Satanism" as the name is significant, especially upon reading The Satanic Bible, as has been suggested. Keyword: "adversarial". Oh, and you might want to excise the word "spirituality".

 Quote:
As a Cosmicist, I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe. Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance? Isn’t self-deification just another form of self-delusion?


The problem with this outlook is that if it is the way one truly feels, one had better just phone it in. Yes, the universe is awe-inspiring in its incomprehensible vastness, but considering that due to current technological constraints, humans only have access to their "own little corner" as it were, the question then is, how do you seek significance in your own life (IF you do at all)? I see the vastness of the universe and all the possibilities that entails fascinating rather than a reflection of my own insignificance. As far as the universe is concerned, I am insignificant, but that does not mean that my life is insignificant to me or to those I affect, for good or ill.

Think of it this way: Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Mozart, Beethoven and Darwin (to give a few examples) all had the same "cosmic insignificance" as you or I, but look at what they accomplished.
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#56607 - 07/07/11 11:45 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
 Quote:
Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance?

No, they usually don't. Minding your own business is a large part of Satanism. The Cosmic Insignificance Of Man is definitely far beyond your or my business.

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#56611 - 07/07/11 03:06 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Originally Posted By: Sean the Mystic

Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations? I use the word “Cosmism” for a religion I have invented.... based more in science and science fiction than in medieval Christian mythology.


So you've picked some obscure bullshit to name 'your' philosophy which has the explicative power of the words 'tension sheet' based on a different paradigm and that is better how exactly? The philosophy as it currently stands was codified in the 60s a very religious time. Since then it's become a brand for sticking it to the man and thinking and living free. Why not use a well known brand? I guarantee you this - long after your 'Cosmicism' or whatever shit has been forgotten people will still understand, and rally under the banner of, Satanism

 Quote:

Secondly, isn’t the idea of self-deification almost Christian in its impossible idealism? As a Cosmicist, I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe. Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance? Isn’t self-deification just another form of self-delusion?


So basically your cosmicism philosophy is, "We're small and insignificant". The Satanic philosophy is I am the absolute arbiter of my own life and it gets the significance that I and no other external causal abstraction gives it. I have problems with the term 'self deification' purely because I find it unncesary but the idea at it's heart is the core of Satanism. Striving for the statement: 'I am the highest authority in my world over my thoughts and deeds' to become 'true'.

 Quote:

Finally, does anyone here honestly believe that “magic” can produce tangible results in the objective world


To the extent that someone acts on the emotional and psychological catharsis absolutely. Just because it doesn't operate by a 'mystical force' doesn't really make it any less useful in the 'objective world' now does it?

Nice robe by the way.

MF.

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#56613 - 07/07/11 05:20 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: MindFux]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: MindFux

long after your 'Cosmicism' or whatever shit has been forgotten people will still understand, and rally under the banner of, Satanism

I'm not sure I agree with this. If Satanism is defined (symbolically at least) in relation to a religion as provincial as Christianity, then its appeal will be limited. Does an Atheist or a Chinese Taoist or an alien from Sirius care about Satan? To me Lovecraft's vision is far vaster and more universal than the Christian/Satanist mythos, which is what I'm arguing for.

 Originally Posted By: MindFux

So basically your cosmicism philosophy is, "We're small and insignificant". The Satanic philosophy is I am the absolute arbiter of my own life and it gets the significance that I and no other external causal abstraction gives it.

Yes, and there's not necessarily any contradiction. Lovecraft's conclusion in the face of our cosmic insignificance is the rather Satanic "only egotism exists," but he would probably say that this is just a form of self-delusion we use to keep ourselves from going mad.

 Originally Posted By: MindFux

Nice robe by the way.

It's actually just a cheap hoodie, but it works until I buy a proper Sith robe. \:\/
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56614 - 07/07/11 05:38 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Three Words. Cult of Cthulhu

http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/

Run.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56615 - 07/07/11 05:43 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So what is the net value of this cosmicism? What is its significance in real life? I mean, thinking you're small and insignificant is all good and well, unless you're with a naked chick of course then it is not advised, but what does it add in life? Fatalism?

D.

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#56616 - 07/07/11 06:05 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Jake999]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Three Words. Cult of Cthulhu

http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/

Run.

I've spoken to Venger Satanis, but his Cult is basically just Satanism with green tentacle motifs. He doesn't really get what the Lovecraft Mythos is about. Anyway I can see that you are somewhat hostile, and I'm not interested in fighting with a senior member or trying to tear down your religion. But with all due respect, if Satanists don't want to engage in adversarial/educational discussions of these issues and just want to shoe away newbies, then I'm not sure what the point of this forum is.
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56617 - 07/07/11 07:41 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
The forums answer virtually every question you've posed. You COULD do a little research. Expend a little effort.

It is not our duty nor responsibility to spoon feed you.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56618 - 07/07/11 08:39 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Clicks Offline
member


Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
Check it, dude. You've got your shit wrong. Go read TSB and beyond and and correct yourself. If you think your Star Wars inspired religion is better, then so be it. Live it. But if you want to inspire more adversarial/educational discussion, at least know what you're talking about. You really do seem like you just read up Satanism on Wikipedia and got the horribly flawed layman's version of it. So, read, then come back with the facts.

Edited by Clicks (07/07/11 08:39 PM)
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#56622 - 07/07/11 10:14 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



As the other guys said - you can get the knowledge from reading the good threads here and reading LaVey and other good works.

I have some of my own thoughts though as you seem to want/need it.

In Relation to Self-deification

I might change the wording a little, if I may: how about the word I - theism, instead of the word self-deification.

The meaning of I –theism needs to be understood correctly I think - I-theism is not to be understood in a metaphysical sense, but rather in an ethical sense.

In Satanism, Atheism is a first necessary step towards an appreciation of reality, and the adoption of I-theism, within the context of balance, the final logical step in properly addressing reality in practical terms.

In Relation to Magic

I personally regard magic as an important component of Satanism, but I think magic itself needs to be understood correctly. I have my own views, which have been influenced by what I do and by my particular reading of the great black magician’s.

It serves a human need for ritual and dogma, but is more than this for me.

I regard Greater Magic as a means of articulating/expressing or developing/manipulating and ideally projecting a possible and personal blueprint, or picture, or vision within an appropriate language or system of meaning, drawing on tools or objects, within a specified space.

I see black magical ritual or ceremony engaged in by Hitler in his mass addresses, described in Triumph of the Will for instance.

I see personal blueprints described as total environments, where players engage in potential black magical games with objects/tools appropriate to those environments and hence essential or intrinsic to those blueprints.

I also see black magical ritual taking place when one acts out the essence of a picture or vision through emotional expression with the use of tools in a dedicated space.

There are other ways, but these are a few which occur to me now.

Anyway magic is a serious business, I think, and is not intended to be fooled around with or used everyday.

In Relation to Cosmicism

I have watched the Star Wars movies many times and can appreciate an attempt to establish a Sithian type religion, or a religion of the dark side of the force. It’s good stuff.

I also like Lovecraft and his picture of reality.

If this religion suits your needs and satisfies your desires, then go for it - Indulge to your hearts content.

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#56625 - 07/08/11 12:30 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I have watched the Star Wars movies many times and can appreciate an attempt to establish a Sithian type religion, or a religion of the dark side of the force. It’s good stuff.

I wrote The Dark Side to explore the interrelationships of initiation (the Jedi), political systems (the Empire and the Rebellion), and military strategy (the various forces, their capabilities, and their strategic & tactical options). It was a very interesting exercise, and of course brought to mind several of George Lucas' original inspirations, such as LOTR and Asimov's Foundation.

On the other hand, I have a maliciously soft spot in my heart for this.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#56626 - 07/08/11 01:23 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
Thank you for that story Michael Aquino, it looks very interesting. I agree that a real Sith religion is a great idea, but I suppose you would get sued by Lucas if you tried it.

I actually wrote a little story yesterday wherein I am contacted through the Multiverse by the last of the Sith Lords, with instructions to found a new Sith Order on my homeworld in preparation for a new Galactic Empire. I thought it was pretty clever; you can read it here.


Edited by Sean the Mystic (07/08/11 02:04 AM)
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56629 - 07/08/11 03:16 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Damn Dr. I need to read The Dark Side ASAP.

The problem is that I am currently enjoying the shenanigans of the tricky and mischievous Conchis. Picked up the movie with Caine and Quinn and it looks promising as well. Not watched yet, after I finish the book.

My Fowles book, by the way, has a great cover of a tiny little man looking around a corner. The little man is being watched by an enormous ancient Greek marble face.

I have to review that sucker here if possible, hope to do justice to it.

Yes, give us a Sithian religion!

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#56634 - 07/08/11 09:52 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: ]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
I have also picked up, but not yet read, this book. Two, actually - upon careful reading of the reviews, it appears there are actually two versions of this book, the original and the "stylistic revision" version. Fowles says in the Forward of the latter that "A number of scenes have been largely rewritten, and one or two new ones invented."

I had ordered what I thought was the original, via Amazon used, but got the revised edition. At the time, it was so cheap I elected to keep it for comparison, and got an original separately.

My revised is a Dell paperback, copyright 1978. The one I believe is the original is a Little&Brown hardcover, copyright 1965. But I haven't actually read them yet.

(Anybody see the movie "The Ninth Gate"?)
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#56638 - 07/08/11 12:09 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
As has been mentioned, and as a point of interest regarding Satanism and Satanists in general, it is always best to have your shit in order and get what you can on your own legs before coming to play.

With that said, Satanism can be a tough bird to nail down. I can only offer my own perspective - http://autodiabolic.wordpress.com
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ideological vandal

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#56639 - 07/08/11 12:29 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Sean the Mystic
Thank you for that story Michael Aquino, it looks very interesting. I agree that a real Sith religion is a great idea, but I suppose you would get sued by Lucas if you tried it.

The Dark Side doesn't present a "Sith religion", but it does touch upon Sith per se, which I won't "spoiler" here. ;\)

The original Star Wars movie (later renamed A New Hope) was a stand-alone. The prequels and sequels were a later add-on following its success. And the original film borrowed heavily, and openly, from a variety of sources and inspirations. Darth's armor came from the Japanese samurai, C-3PO came from Metropolis, and Luke Skywalker was originally a girl. And what many people don't know is that the entire movie spun off from Apocalypse Now, which was the on-again/off-again brainchild of Lucas' friend Francis Coppola. When FC was busy with The Godfather, he invited GL to do AN (as an anti-American-imperialist essay on the Vietnam War). Then later FC decided to do AN himself, so GL changed the Vietnamese into Rebels and the Americans into the Empire and set out to do the thing sci-fi. So there is something of an inside joke in Harrison Ford cameoing in AN as an American colonel named "Lucas" \:\)

 Quote:
I actually wrote a little story yesterday wherein I am contacted through the Multiverse by the last of the Sith Lords, with instructions to found a new Sith Order on my homeworld in preparation for a new Galactic Empire. I thought it was pretty clever; you can read it here.

I'll take a look. \:\)
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56640 - 07/08/11 12:35 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Yes, give us a Sithian religion!

The funny story here: After I wrote the first part of The Dark Side in 1977, Magister Michael Grumboski called me from Detroit and said, "No, no, Mike, you've got it backward. First you write the sci-fi, then you start a religious cult based on it!" [He was of course referring to Ron Hubbard, whose "Scientology" spun off from his sci-fi stories.]
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56643 - 07/08/11 02:13 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Autodidact]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
I have also picked up, but not yet read, this book. Two, actually - upon careful reading of the reviews, it appears there are actually two versions of this book, the original and the "stylistic revision" version. Fowles says in the Forward of the latter that "A number of scenes have been largely rewritten, and one or two new ones invented."

Having read both, I unhesitatingly recommend the Revised Edition, generally for the same reasons that JF himself gives in his Foreword.

Here are some Magus-meditations:

THE GODGAME
- by Michael A. Aquino VI°
The Scroll of Set, June 2003

In John Fowles’ novel The Magus (Reading List #6I), the old Greek Maurice Conchis creates an artificial fantasy “universe”, or rather a constantly-changing kaleidoscope of them, into which the unsuspecting Englishman Nicholas Urfe ventures. First assuming Conchis to be mad, Urfe gradually realizes each of these designs - but only to fall into the next one. He assumes he is witnessing a masque. He then believes Conchis’ pretense to be a psychologist running an experimental clinic. Then a producer creating a spontaneous/living film. After a climactic bizarre, frightening, and humiliating Black Mass “disintoxication”, the shattered-nerved Urfe is confronted by Conchis for a last time: “I come to tell you that you are now Elect.”
From Chapter #3 of Black Magic:

 Quote:
Individuals who find their way to the Temple of Set are known as the Elect. This term has a subtle significance of its own. It means “chosen” - but it does not identify the chooser. That chooser may be Set; it may be oneself; it may be pure hazard (#6I). Nor does it imply privilege, aristocracy, or guaranteed success. It is, simply, an acknowledgment that the aspirant stands at these gates which only a comparative few have encountered. Like Parsifal (#14C, #14U), Jonathan Harker (#8B), Her-Bak (#2L), or Nicholas Urfe (#6I), the aspirant either steps forward into the Temple - or turns back into profane existence.

Later Urfe learns that he was randomly chosen to be the annual subject of an initiatory experience which Conchis and his colleagues call “the godgame”. The Magus does not define this curious term, but in his nonfictional Aristos (also #6I) Fowles does:

 Quote:
Imagine yourself a god, and lay down the laws of a universe. You then find yourself in the Divine Predicament: good governors must govern all equally, and all fairly. But no act of government can be fair to all, in their different situations, except one.

The Divine Solution is to govern by not governing in any sense that the governed can call being governed; that is, to constitute a situation in which the governed must govern themselves.

If there had been a creator, his second act would have been to disappear.

Put dice on the table and leave the room; but make it seem possible to the players that you were never in the room.

The good human and the good universal upbringing gives freedom to develop, or hazard, within fixed bounds.

The whole is not a pharaonic cosmos: a blind obsession with pyramids, assembling, slaves. Our pyramid has no apex; it is not a pyramid. We are not slaves who will never see the summit, because there is no summit.

Life may be less imperfect in a hundred years’ time than it is today, but it will be even less imperfect a hundred years after that.

Perfectibility is meaningless because whenever we enter the infinite processus we can look forward with a kind of nostalgia for the future, and imagine a better age. It is also evil, because a terminus of perfection breeds a cancer of now. For perfectibilitarians perfect ends tomorrow justify very imperfect means today.

We build towards nothing; we build.

Our universe is the best possible because it can contain no Promised Land, no point where we could have all we imagine. We are designed to want; with nothing to want we are like windmills in a world without wind.

Emily Dickinson: “If summer were an axiom, what sorcery had snow?”

We are in the best possible situation because everywhere, below the surface, we do not know; we shall never know why; we shall never know tomorrow; we shall never know a god or if there is a god; we shall never even know ourselves. This mysterious wall round our world and our perception of it is not there to frustrate us, but to train us back to the now, to life, to our time being.

Profane religions are not “godgames”; they are merely fantasy/propaganda businesses to control and exploit their targets. It makes no difference whether it goes by the name Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any number of others; it is all the same imbecilic garbage and nonsense.

It didn’t take me all that long as a child to realize this: About the same time I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny I also threw out the rest of the silliness. For the several years before I encountered the Church of Satan in 1968, I, like Fowles, was an Existentialist - merely attempting to evaluate and react to all encountered phenomena reasonably and practically.

What I lacked, though like Nicholas Urfe I didn’t even remotely suspect it at the time, was initiation: exposure to and awareness of magical existence, that is to become aware of all phenomena external to the self as Wonderful Things to be understood, interrelated, and creatively manipulated.

The Church became the Greek island on which I entered a supernatural masque, the Nautilus aboard which I traveled 20,000 leagues under the sea, the Keep, Castle Dracula, Shangri-la, the City of Dreadful Night, Prospero’s island, Shaolin, Arda, and Oz. Crude and amateur though it was, it nevertheless catalyzed Elect and alert Satanists’ mutation from the mundane to the magical. One entered the Church asleep, emerged from it awake. The external world, formerly a tediously ordinary active/reactive chore, became transformed into a swirling, roaring mælstrom of raw magical material.

For me, as well-known, this Journey to the Center of my Soul culminated in the ecstatic shock of the Book of Coming Forth by Night.

Thus the founding of the Temple of Set was far more than “just organizing a religion based on an old Egyptian god”. That could be [and has been] done by any aficionado, dilettante, or role-playing gamer.

No, the Temple of Set had to be a godgame. As others than myself had not personally experienced the Book of Coming Forth by Night, it was essential to communicate its principles in a form, a context, an opportunity such that others could apprehend them, exercise them, embrace with them, and ultimately self-transform through them to that same magical awareness of self and the Universal source energizing all such awareness.

Further to Fowles’ prescription, the Temple of Set, immediately after the most emphatic affirmation of its existence and sanction, dissolves beneath the feet of every new Setian to become a phantom religion. There are no required meetings, services, rituals, absurd behavioral constraints, communes, haircuts, or circumcisions. The startled Setian discovers that his focus of reverence is internal/ central, indeed to his very ability to focus and revere, and that true worship of Set comes only as a harmonious echo to this focus.

In support of this godgame, the archives, communications, and activities of the Temple are properly seen, as our General Information Letter states, as a “toolbox” into which each Setian magician may reach to refine his skills, strengthen his awareness, and extend his will to create and alter subjective and objective reality.
In a perfect world, that would be the extent of the Temple of Set. Aspirants would arrive, drink deeply at its fountain, and emerge as Magicians.

Unlike Conchis’ perfectly-contained godgame (as is possible only in novels!), however, the Temple exists physically in a very imperfect world. It is Wells’ Country of the Blind, Nietzsche’s Last Man, Verne’s “hated nation”, Oceania, Metropolis, and Trantor. In this World of Horrors an entity as alien as the Temple of Set must walk a precarious tightrope to appear both irrelevant and unthreatening to non-initiates. Through our initiatory protocol we similarly guide our Initiates along their individual tightropes, so that they may work their magic “between the raindrops”.

 Originally Posted By: Captain Nemo, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
In the sea is supreme tranquillity. It does not belong to despots. Upon its surface men can still exercise unjust laws, fight, tear one another to pieces, and be carried away with terrestrial horrors. But at thirty feet below its level their reign ceases, their influence is quenched, and their power disappears. Ah! sir, live - live in the bosom of the waters! There only is independence! There I recognize no masters! There I am free!

That, of course, was 1866, and 137 years later not even the sea offers sanctuary from those of the Ninth Part of the Word of Set:

 Quote:
And in the twilight of your time, you shall confront the priests and armies of death, enraged by the intoxicant of destruction, who slay themselves even as they would you and whose piety is that of decay and dissolution. They cherish the fruits of Earthly decay as the richest of treasures. Accursed are they for this foulness! You shall know them by the dullness of their eyes and the savagery of their speech, despite the jewels with which they adorn themselves and the marble they may work. Look on them and be prideful that you do not worship their god of death. Beware of them and of their intoxicant! Your endurance depends on your essence.

In 2003 the World of Horrors has reached new extremes of deceit, violence, destruction, cynicism, horrific injury to and extermination of other species, reckless overpopulation of its own, rampant disease, and poisonous degradation of the Earth’s biosphere. The challenge to the Setian Magician is thus no longer within the luxury of the godgame; like the Istari of Middle-earth, we must quietly, skillfully extend our arts and spells towards the healing of this poor planet. Thus we remain Elect.

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#56650 - 07/09/11 09:53 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
There are no required meetings, services, rituals, absurd behavioral constraints, communes, haircuts, or circumcisions.

That’s not entirely accurate. First Degree Setians must become “Recognized” by a Priest as Adept Black Magicians (Second Degrees). For this to happen, the Setian must seek out a Priest and communicate with that Priest on a regular basis. If the Priest is located within driving distance, the Setian is expected to physically meet with the Priest both individually and in meetings with other Setians (Gatherings). Additionally, Setians are strongly encouraged (pressured?) to attend much larger annual meetings called Conclaves, which have been held in various places around the world.

If the First Degree Setian doesn’t establish communication with a Priest and play along, including attending meetings and generally doing whatever it takes to show that he is worthy of the Great Red Cookie (Red Pentagram Medallion signifying the Second Degree), he won’t remain in the ToS. First Degrees have two years to become Second Degrees (sometimes a little longer if granted an extension). If Setians do not attain Second Degree status within that time, they will be kicked out of the ToS.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56652 - 07/09/11 02:03 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
There are no required meetings, services, rituals, absurd behavioral constraints, communes, haircuts, or circumcisions.

That’s not entirely accurate. First Degree Setians must become “Recognized” by a Priest as Adept Black Magicians (Second Degrees). For this to happen, the Setian must seek out a Priest and communicate with that Priest on a regular basis. If the Priest is located within driving distance, the Setian is expected to physically meet with the Priest both individually and in meetings with other Setians (Gatherings). Additionally, Setians are strongly encouraged (pressured?) to attend much larger annual meetings called Conclaves, which have been held in various places around the world.

If the First Degree Setian doesn’t establish communication with a Priest and play along, including attending meetings and generally doing whatever it takes to show that he is worthy of the Great Red Cookie (Red Pentagram Medallion signifying the Second Degree), he won’t remain in the ToS. First Degrees have two years to become Second Degrees (sometimes a little longer if granted an extension). If Setians do not attain Second Degree status within that time, they will be kicked out of the ToS.

My statement above remains accurate. The II° evaluation process to which you refer is a completely personalized one, and obviously the evaluating Priest or Priestess must have reasonable contact to be able to offer any requested guidance and make the evaluation.

The Temple of Set is not a magazine subscription or Internet forum; it is an initiatory school, no less than those of ancient Egypt, the Pythagorean Brotherhood, or the Platonic Academy. The I° is not somewhere to dawdle and linger; it is an opportunity to learn and become Adept in the Black Arts. We have found that two years is sufficient for actively-interested and capable persons to accomplish this. If they cannot, or will not, we see neither reason nor obligation to bother further with them.

Upon II° Recognition, the Adept's participation in any Temple activity is completely personal-discretionary. As previously, we regard the Temple as a "toolbox" which Initiates may use [and add tools to!] as desired.

Our international & national conclaves, and regional/local gatherings are completely optional; many Setians in fine standing have not been to any of them. I have missed several. You mistake recommendation and encouragement for "pressure"; these events are almost always hugely enjoyed by those who attend them, and they thus recommend the experience to others who haven't yet, that's all. We have these things literally all over the world, and the international/intercultural enrichment is a big part of the picture.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56655 - 07/09/11 03:15 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
I would argue that, at least in my case, local gatherings were not optional. My Priest gave me the third degree (no pun intended) when I balked at the idea of continuing to drive with him four hours away to gatherings. Eight hours of driving plus meals and time spent at the gatherings meant I was away from my family from early morning until late at night. Working two jobs, I barely had enough time for my family as it was. The Priest’s reaction was a major (though not the only) factor in my decision to leave the ToS.

My intention here is not to whine, only to set the record straight. As with any school, there are obligations to be met. Anyone thinking about joining the ToS or any other such organization should give careful consideration to those obligations before jumping in.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56657 - 07/09/11 04:06 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: William Wright]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: William Wright


My intention here is not to whine, only to set the record straight. As with any school, there are obligations to be met. Anyone thinking about joining the ToS or any other such organization should give careful consideration to those obligations before jumping in.


Well... we all set our personal price in social (and philosophical) currency and you simply reached the point of diminishing return, in your eyes, for your inclusion in the Setian initiatory system. But those who support through action and service often "put themselves out" for something they truly believe in. You just have to decide if it's worth it in your individual case.

For example, while I was working as Administrator at the Black House, I was also in the military and, as most often 10 hour days, and some times 12. My job was in combat mobility. During peacetime, we trained for war, so this meant moving heavy equipment and troops for deployment on a daily basis. Physically demanding and mentally demanding, often dangerous and always exhausting. My normal duty shift was 7AM to 5PM (0700-1700).

The Church of Satan had no "days off," and virtually all of the day-to-day activities were conducted from 8PM until 3 or 4 AM. Often, several times a week, I was needed for normal duties of something special that Dr. LaVey needed to get done, so I would get off my military job at 5PM, shower and sleep until 7-7:30, drive to the city and be in place by 8 to 8:30, work until 3:30 - 4 AM, drive back home and get some sleep between 4:30 and 6:45 AM. Luckily, the drive to and from San Francisco was "reverse commute" both ways, so traffic was generally very light, crossing the long plain between Vallejo and Novato, headed for the Golden Gate.

Was it physically tiring? Yes. Was it mentally tiring? Yes. Was it demanding? Yes. Could someone else have don the job instead of me? Probably. But it was MY JOB. I signed on for it, I knew that it was benefitting both Dr. LaVey and the Church of Satan. I was learning some of my greatest lessons of life and human nature and survival and adaptation and flexibility and power and ... where does the list end? But the exhaustion and the loss of family time (and she was working her military schedule as well) was something I could justify by what good my "sacrifice" could achieve for a cause I truly believed in.

Were there perks and benefits? Undoubtedly. I would be a liar if I said that I didn't gain somewhat in "political capital" within the Church. I became recognized as someone who'd get the job done... same as in the military. As above, as below. A soldier who did what was needed to complete his mission... kind of corny in today's "why should I work do anything more" atmosphere.

So you're right. You have to decide whether you're going to be able to meet your obligations before deciding that you're going to go above and beyond. I could have simply been happy to have that blue card and just "been a member." I could have simply been happy to have that red card and just "been a player," but I wanted more and I wanted to earn it, and the only way was to take the pain and soldier on.

LaVey used to joke on nights when we were tired and quiet and concentrating on a project, "You're a slave in here so you can be a master out there." Damned if it didn't turn out that he knew what he was talking about. Sometimes slavery can be a drudge... and sometimes it gives the slave a hell of a lot of FREEDOM in the end.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56658 - 07/09/11 04:06 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
I would argue that, at least in my case, local gatherings were not optional. My Priest gave me the third degree (no pun intended) when I balked at the idea of continuing to drive with him four hours away to gatherings. Eight hours of driving plus meals and time spent at the gatherings meant I was away from my family from early morning until late at night. Working two jobs, I barely had enough time for my family as it was. The Priest’s reaction was a major (though not the only) factor in my decision to leave the ToS.

If you felt there was inappropriate pressure, you were completely at liberty to contact and work with any other Priest or Priestess. If you felt that your initial one was abusing his office, just contact any Master IV°, or the Executive Director, for help. The Crystal Tablet discusses all this in the "Protocol" section.

 Quote:
My intention here is not to whine, only to set the record straight.

You did the former, not the latter. The Temple of Set has made it abundantly clear that it is not an institution in which anyone is expected to "suffer in silence". Everything usually works pretty pleasantly; but when something doesn't, we do have the systems in place to fix it. Except of course in cases where people shoot themselves in the feet, which can range from the simple to the Morbius level.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#56663 - 07/09/11 05:15 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
Listen, dude. I didn’t “suffer in silence” – I left. My point was simply that there’s an obligation, stated or implied, to participate in group activities when joining an organization such as yours. I’m not telling you anything you or anyone else here doesn’t know.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#56677 - 07/10/11 12:26 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: William Wright]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
My point was simply that there’s an obligation, stated or implied, to participate in group activities when joining an organization such as yours. I’m not telling you anything you or anyone else here doesn’t know.


Just say it:

How does the painter get into the spirit of the plant, if he/she wants to paint a hibiscus? The secret is to become the plant itself. But, can humans turn themselves into a plant? Inasmuch as humans aspire to paint a plant or animal (or to become a Setian), there must be in that human something which corresponds to it in one way or another. If so, humans ought to be able to become the object they wish to paint (a Setian).

The Temple of Set is not for you, and it looks like Satanism applies more to the path your on.

Ciao.


Edited by paolo sette (07/10/11 12:27 AM)
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#56681 - 07/10/11 05:28 AM Re: William's ToS experience [Re: William Wright]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
Will, you made the right valuation when you placed your family and career above meetings with some guru. Normally such a stance would garner respect from Satanists/LHPers, but sometimes there is an apple cart precariously off-balance.

JK
_________________________



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#56691 - 07/10/11 06:54 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Oxus Offline
member


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 510
I will confess that I had personal anxiety with Pylon meetings, and certainly with Conclave. Even though I am 20-30 minutes from the meetings, (I work an hour from home and that didn't help), it is a horrific transit into this city, I was not prepared for this when I joined. It would also cost too much for my family every month (I wouldn't be driving in because there is no parking close to the meeting and my vehicles suck, LOL) and of course conclave would be out of the question being that I am putting two boys through college (my wife & I haven't taken a real vacation in years).

That said, I did feel pressure to participate because of my own expectations, but I was never pressured by another ToS member, actually I was relieved by many members (ToS members are very comfortable to be around).

In the end I did feel an anxiety towards reaching my 2nd year and hoping to be recognized to II° . . . fortunately, I managed to fuck the whole thing up by acting like an ass and dismissed myself.

All in all, I would say that the ToS is not for everyone, and the two years is a sufficient time to realize this on both ends.

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#56698 - 07/11/11 06:03 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 199
Loc: High Peak, UK

"Do Satanists not share this sense of cosmic awe and insignificance?"

No, we as humanity are the most important things in he Universe & what the Universe has been waiting for the past 13.5 billion years............the Universe only exists the way it does because that's the way we see it.
_________________________
There but for the Grace of I go I

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#56702 - 07/11/11 03:02 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: when7iseleven]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: when7iseleven

No, we as humanity are the most important things in he Universe & what the Universe has been waiting for the past 13.5 billion years


LOL this sounds like the same old monotheistic delusion to me, with its "the world was created for us" ideas. To be honest, Satanism seems like little more than a mirror image of Christianity, but I suppose it has a certain antinomian appeal to people raised in that tradition.


Edited by Sean the Mystic (07/11/11 03:16 PM)
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56706 - 07/11/11 05:05 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Most Satanists are simply reverse-Christians, even those that profess Atheism.

I get a little nauseous every time somebody tries to portray the universe as anthropocentric. That fact that humanity constitutes only an infinitesimal flicker of "the past 13.5 billion years" is a pretty clear testament to our cosmic importance.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#56707 - 07/11/11 05:25 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Well, we could find some relevance for humanity since we at least create the universe as it is. No observer, no reality.

D.

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#56726 - 07/12/11 03:06 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: The Zebu]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 199
Loc: High Peak, UK
“Most Satanists are simply reverse-Christians, even those that profess Atheism.”

Well that’s a tad harsh & a very sweeping statement implying that one) you know most Satanists, which I doubt & two) I’m an Atheist, which I doubt.

“I get a little nauseous every time somebody tries to portray the universe as anthropocentric. That fact that humanity constitutes only an infinitesimal flicker of "the past 13.5 billion years" is a pretty clear testament to our cosmic importance.”

Nausea is easily cured, just try a few very deep breaths as it’s all to do with stale air in your stomach.................just four or five usually does it for me.

Of course the Universe as we see it & we understand is anthropocentric, the clue is in the words “as we see it & as we understand it”.............the small patch of evolved radiation we call home only exists in the way it does because that is the way that we see it, it’s the reality that we live in.............we are metaphorically slap bang in the centre of everything.

PS...................you’re quite right, you did use the word anthropocentric far too many times yesterday
_________________________
There but for the Grace of I go I

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#56729 - 07/12/11 03:23 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: when7iseleven]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
“Most Satanists are simply reverse-Christians, even those that profess Atheism.”

Well that’s a tad harsh & a very sweeping statement implying that one) you know most Satanists, which I doubt & two) I’m an Atheist, which I doubt.

I'm actually with Zebu on that part. The lack of a belief in higher powers doesn't take away the naivity and illogical morals and/or constructs of the mind. And just as he said, from the vast array of self-professed Satanists most of them tend to be simple reverse-christians despite the use of black imagery and quoting tons of Satanic works.

If you doubt being an Atheist, then you're an agnostic.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#56731 - 07/12/11 03:35 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: when7iseleven]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I'm sorry if I framed my message incorrectly-- I did not mean to imply that you were "reverse-Christian" or an "Atheist".

What I meant, was that, from my experience, most self-identified Satanists I've interacted with treat Satanism like a "religion", and use it to fill the ideological gap left by Christianity, and are usually preoccupied with mocking Nazarene religion rather than exploring their own ideas. This is my own impression.

 Quote:
Of course the Universe as we see it & we understand is anthropocentric, the clue is in the words “as we see it & as we understand it”.............the small patch of evolved radiation we call home only exists in the way it does because that is the way that we see it, it’s the reality that we live in.............we are metaphorically slap bang in the centre of everything.


I don't mean that human beings should (or can) stop seeing the universe in relationship to themselves, as this is essential for our survival. I am talking about the error of ascribing some sort of objective "meaning" to it all, as posited by most religious and mystical systems. I agree with you that the only reliable purpose to life can be what we give to it ourselves... or let other people decide for us.

I refer to Douglas Adam's famous "Puddle Fallacy" for illustration, which your elaboration reminded me of:

 Quote:
Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#56796 - 07/14/11 01:43 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
So are you swinging from Venger Satanis nuts? Or are you Venger Satanis? Either way you fail .
_________________________
http://satanicinternationalnetwork.com/

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#56801 - 07/14/11 02:24 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Zach_Black]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
Sir do I look like Mr. Satanis to you? Isn't there a forum where the "gutter Satanists" can hurl their inarticulate insults at each other, so the more civilized among us can have adult discussions?

"Do you know what you look like, with your good bag and your cheap shoes?"
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56805 - 07/14/11 02:52 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I am not exactly a Satanist, but I have found nothing that comes closer to my own perspective"

That's understandable, the people here don't worship Star Wars, and understand it was a movie.

"Isn’t there a better name for this form of spirituality which doesn’t have the deistic, Judeo-Christian connotations?"

Excellent, you ask for another name, yet have no idea about it. Have you even bothered to read the book? Its free in the media room.

"Secondly, isn’t the idea of self-deification almost Christian in its impossible idealism?"

Xitians believe in jesus christ, his father, and the holy ghost as the trinity formed into ONE GOD.

Satanist (usually) view themselves as their own GOD because of how they view their life, their universe, and their role in it. In other words, they are god, because they take responsibly for their lives, actions, words, and deeds. Plus when they die, the show and the universe ends. There are no reruns, part 2, or do overs.

"I am skeptical that man can ever be anything more than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in an infinite, incomprehensible universe."

Then why do you care? If you think you have no meaning in the scheme of things, why don't you kill yourself, since you feel nothing matters?

"Finally, does anyone here honestly believe that “magic” can produce tangible results in the objective world, or is it just a form of theater and psychological manipulation?"

Read a book, read a post, do a search on the topic of magic in this forum. This has been discussed so many times, and recently too.

"LOL this sounds like the same old monotheistic delusion to me, with its "the world was created for us" ideas. To be honest, Satanism seems like little more than a mirror image of Christianity, but I suppose it has a certain antinomian appeal to people raised in that tradition."

Dude, why are you here? You obviously have never read the Satanic Bible, yet you feel quite comfortable bashing people here in this forum. If you think that running around in a robe, trying to be a movie character is all dark and evil and Cthulu like, then maybe you should go find Venger and have a melding of the minds or suckfest.

"....so the more civilized among us can have adult discussions?"

So discussions about how you look silly in a robe with a background of stars is out of the question? Or about how you want to be a religious sith? Wouldn't you have to send George Lucas a tithe?

But do go on, its quite funny.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#56806 - 07/14/11 03:16 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Morgan]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
I'm here because there are a few highly intelligent people here with unusual perspectives, like Michael Aquino. I'm certainly not here to speak with garden variety Satanists who enjoy creating drama and hurling petty insults. I will pass on having any intellectual discourse with you on these matters, because to be brutally honest you simply aren't in my league.
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56807 - 07/14/11 03:26 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I will pass on having any intellectual discourse with you on these matters, because to be brutally honest you simply aren't in my league."

Okay sith-boy, whatever makes you feel safe and secure.

When you are ready to grow up and stop playing games, maybe you will get somewhere near my league. Till then, you are still wearing a Halloween costume, and still have no clue about Satanism.

Morgan

ps,

Go read the Satanic Bible, maybe you will learn something, but I doubt it.
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#56808 - 07/14/11 03:44 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: Sean the Mystic
Sir do I look like Mr. Satanis to you? Isn't there a forum where the "gutter Satanists" can hurl their inarticulate insults at each other, so the more civilized among us can have adult discussions?

"Do you know what you look like, with your good bag and your cheap shoes?"


Well fine sir. You do not look nearly as cool as the Epsy. But in all fairness who could possibly match up to these guns!

http://www.satanicinternationalnetwork.com/photo/view/1172

But in all do credit I think you might fair up on his level .



Edited by blackzach (07/14/11 03:45 AM)
_________________________
http://satanicinternationalnetwork.com/

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#56809 - 07/14/11 04:27 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Originally Posted By: Sean the Mystic
so the more civilized among us can have adult discussions?


Says the guy who is still stuck in high school back when he first saw Star Wars and wants to be the next Darth Vader. Mistaking juvenile fantasies for reality doesn't get much more "adult" does it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Star Wars fan, too, and as cool as I think it would be to be able to force choke someone or shoot lightning from my fingertips, I realize that I'll sooner get a hernia from trying before I'll actually produce a single spark from my pinkie.

And as for ol' Howard Philips, the guy spins a mighty good yarn, but until I see Chthulu raise his tentacles from the ocean depths with my own two eyes, I'll consign him to the category of "fiction".

Satanists aren't interested in substituting fantasies for reality. While a Satanist may enjoy and even indulge in a little fantasy, he/she has no problem recognizing when playtime is over.
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#56810 - 07/14/11 04:33 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Draculesti]
Sean the Mystic Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 16
OK that's interesting but to me there is no clear dividing line between fantasy and reality. I see all religions as collective fantasies, and I'm OK with that. The ability to imagine fantasy worlds is what I call "magic". And why would I ever want playtime to be over??
_________________________
"Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'. Only egotism exists." --H.P. Lovecraft

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#56811 - 07/14/11 04:53 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Quote:
OK that's interesting but to me there is no clear dividing line between fantasy and reality.


Clearly.

 Quote:
The ability to imagine fantasy worlds is what I call "magic".


I won't contest that point. Artistic creation is, indeed, a form of "magic," though that might give a lot of people the wrong idea about it. Nevertheless, creative fictions and reality must of necessity diverge; otherwise, you're living a lie (see any interesting parallels there?).

 Quote:
And why would I ever want playtime to be over??


You tell me.
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#56812 - 07/14/11 04:53 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"OK that's interesting but to me there is no clear dividing line between fantasy and reality."

Then you need medication.

"The ability to imagine fantasy worlds is what I call "magic"."

That's not magic, that's called having an imagination.

"And why would I ever want playtime to be over??"

Because you have to turn off Return of the Jedi, put away your star wars action figures and move out of your mom's basement unless you want to be a Halloween costume wearing virgin your whole life.

or you could ask vader to send you a hooker.
or you could roll a D6


http://youtu.be/54VJWHL2K3I

Morgan





Edited by Morgan (07/14/11 04:57 AM)
Edit Reason: trying to fix video link
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#56813 - 07/14/11 06:53 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: The Zebu]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 199
Loc: High Peak, UK
“I'm sorry if I framed my message incorrectly-- I did not mean to imply that you were "reverse-Christian" or an "Atheist".”

No worries, I think on re-reading my post the tone of it wasn’t all it could have been & I apologise for that...............not been on a forum for many years so a little out of practise.

“What I meant, was that, from my experience, most self-identified Satanists I've interacted with treat Satanism like a "religion", and use it to fill the ideological gap left by Christianity, and are usually preoccupied with mocking Nazarene religion rather than exploring their own ideas. This is my own impression.”

I agree with you & that is my experience as well but so what? If some spotty faced no hoper wants to cling to the life raft of Satanism just to be different to his Christian chums then who am I to argue with them; jerking off over the latest edition of DevilsRus never really did it for me but if lighting their black phallic candles really does fulfil their needs & gives them a purpose then I say good for them; you could probably construct a compelling argument that says they are more “Satanic” as it gives them everything they want than those continually walking the path striving for the Truth, finding as many questions as answers.

“I don't mean that human beings should (or can) stop seeing the universe in relationship to themselves, as this is essential for our survival. I am talking about the error of ascribing some sort of objective "meaning" to it all, as posited by most religious and mystical systems. I agree with you that the only reliable purpose to life can be what we give to it ourselves... or let other people decide for us.”

I see this thread has moved on so probably best for us not to get bogged down on this here, I am sure we’ll pick it up again soon but our position in the Universe is fundamental to Satan; that’s our position physically, metaphysically & metaphorically.

“I refer to Douglas Adam's famous "Puddle Fallacy" for illustration, which your elaboration reminded me of:”
A nice little illustration but........................???????????????

PS...................how the hell do you get the quote thingy to work??
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#56869 - 07/15/11 05:06 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: when7iseleven]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I would conjecture that pushing the opposite of Judeo-Christianity and the opposite of it's naysaying would be an affirmative way of life. Libertine transgressions embodying the horny genius of the Dionysian man.

I would conjecture that The Devil, in conventional theistic depiction, is a collective shadow projection manifested as a memetic entity. Some would dismiss and be repulsed by intrusions into the black aspect of the psyche (the Jungian Shadow), others will be fascinated by the aesthetic of the feral, of violence, and the raw ferocity of nature, beheld as pure.

We must do the true opposite of what Judeo-Christianity imposes all around, not mirror it in black, which is not an opposite but a light exchange of object ideals.

How is this possible if theists created the Devil? The theists never created the Devil, only feared human capacity for malevolence, dismissing all connections with those innate drives in the consciousness, repressed the Devil thoughtform entity, condensed it, let it brood where the senses cannot perceive and so emerges the shadow projections abounds religion.

Dismissing what others fear and have polarised in manifest is a sure way to become apathetic, a product of passive nihilism, a product from the death of values.

Dismissing all connotations with the Devil in traditions is not an affirmation of it's psychological and natural aspects. In a similar way, there are so called Atheists who regard themselves as Atheists simply for dismissing or never acknowledging a God belief. And so without affirming the Judeo-Christian morality that they live by they are simply Judeo-Christians who do not pray or worship a deification, yet still bound by the slave morality or at best, dabblers of controlled opposition.

Without the affirmation of Judeo-Christian ideas about reality, there can be no devaluation and revaluation of values. The result of this invincible ignorance is passive nihilism calling itself Atheism. An Atheist ought to be able to affirm his thinking to be apart from the conditioning imposed onto his mind.

Judeo-Christianity is repression of natural human functioning, it is all around and in our judicial system, our schools and our streets, our families are them too. Churches and clergy are the easily identifiable scapegoats. Judeo-Christian conditioning is much more subterranean a conspiracy.

A "reverse" Christian would not pray to Satan, a reverse Christian would not believe in an afterlife. The term "reverse Christian" is a paradox unto itself, as a naturally functioning human being would not hold any connotations with theism. Rather, Maltheism or Misotheism which is malevolent unto the theophiles adoration of that which besickens; the very real and present belief in God, the demiurge entity, being totally dependent on narcissistic supply from theophiles for its existence.

Reverse Christian is an ambiguous wording. If one is trying to describe an exhalation of the psychological Devil, the consciousness and perspective of malevolence, one ought to be apart from Judeo-Christianised thinking, rather, from scientific and psychological angles, intuitive angles beyond words and the limitations of language and communicable limitation restrictions.

As the Satanist holds it true that matter is solid, and as would appear his own body, through the five senses, never once will he affirm that he is vibrating field energy and that the entire universe is the consciousnesses projection.

Would this person be a reverse Satanist, a scientist or a Gnostic? Why does there have to be definitions to orderly systems of thought when feral transgression is the ideal of the Satanist, and so why must the illusion of fixed thought hold any relevance to a being which processes millions of chaotic thoughts beyond words and viewable compartmentalisations. The thoughts by which transgression and emotional sensation reach achievement are arbitrary, and so does it matter which path the Satanist thinks he or she is paving toward transgression in his or her personal reality as the outcome is always the same. Machinations of the will to power, impositioning the will to power in the arena of whatever reality a particular Satanist perceives.

The very notion to imposition a "think as I do" unto a Satanist is ambiguous. Is it a will to subjugate other Satanist to ones own Satanism, or to modestly present the view for respectable questioning and analysis, which is the same imposition of the will, only in a disguised form.

It all depends on how one regards the experience of living matter, exploiting life, which would be uninhibited for a Maltheist because the illusory nature of matter is intuitive to such a Gnostic, only the darkness of his soul exists in the shadowy tomb of flesh and bone, therefore he is free to transcend morality and the imposed rules of existence to experience the entire spectral sensations of the flesh arbitrarily, pleasure, pain, with less inhibition, if any.

I observes Satanists desperately trying to form object constancy about what is Satan, and what is Satanism, as if the beast were to be intellectually definable within the limits of man made language, needlessly abstracted from the source of the natural aspect in living things, utterly limited to what is communicable understandings, compartmentalised order about the hylic ego. The natural aspect would be completely obscured by the censorship of the ego; that which impositions the mind in it's fixations, blinding the individual to the sobering nature of his inner darkness; the natural aspect.

It is the verb of the beast; they cannot hear it because Satan is not speaking to the mind of man.

And as for Hell; Death, itself, cannot be experienced, it is life, itself, which is the purest horror imaginable.

Crack the skull of Abraham!
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#56875 - 07/15/11 08:33 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Hegesias]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Look the blah blah fucking blah guy is back.

Can you deliver a message in less than 1500 words son? Focus.
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#56883 - 07/15/11 09:49 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Look the blah blah fucking blah guy is back.

Can you deliver a message in less than 1500 words son? Focus.


Interesting.

He's verbose, no doubt. But he didn't stick a gun to your head and make you read it, did he? Which is worse, a dude that posts lengthy responses to a thread, or the dude that cares enough to bitch about it?

JK
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#56884 - 07/15/11 10:01 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Jason King]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I vote for the guy that cares enough to bitch about the bitching jason. Nobody stuck a gun to your head and made you read my reply ;\)
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#56890 - 07/15/11 10:54 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
I vote for the guy that cares enough to bitch about the bitching jason. Nobody stuck a gun to your head and made you read my reply ;\)


Hey, dude, can I stick that reply in my bag of tricks? I'll do the little c in a circle and copyright DD. Pretty please. Because it was just the shnizzle. [/sarcasm]

JK
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#56892 - 07/15/11 10:59 AM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Hegesias]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 199
Loc: High Peak, UK
I’m not going to try & answer your post point by point as some of it is way past my comprehension; which I’m sure is a failing on my part, but being a proud Yorkshireman we like to keep things simple, & the older I get the simpler I like it, the application of Occams Razor usually gets to the right answer. Having said that I will try & respond to the gist of your post which I hope will suffice.

The labels we try to attach to each other as Satanists are meaningless & irrelevant, from the prepubescent kid warbling incantations to those that claim to be Satan’s right hand buddy (or should that be left hand?) , the vast majority of us are nothing more than a side show to what’s going on so what we call ourselves only has any real meaning to us as individuals. Each of us are no more & no less of a Satanist than anyone else that attaches themselves to & lives the way they believe a Satanist should live. Yes there are those that no more than others & are closer to the Truth, but that does not make them more of a Satanist, it just makes them a Satanist that knows stuff. So try not to get bogged down with titles or what is Satanic & what’s not, just get on with living.
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#56915 - 07/15/11 06:58 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Dan_Dread]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I reserve the right of free transgressive speech in my left path notes; beyond the evidently mundane intention of dead words, and, admittedly, for mine and others appeasement, deadpan black humour not to be confused with genuine cerebral sadism which may, or may not, reside in subtext, as collateral consequence to my disposition as an utter bastard. But what I do not advocate is bastardising of others expressions.

In no way am I asserting that you have defined yourself a philistine, as my notes can hardly bare to hold their own aesthetic refinement due to the work failing to live up to the inspiration that creates it.

I can appreciate your motivational cause to rally those with short attention spans, however, it is unnecessary as a very very small collection of people will bother to read through and take something from my notes, go beyond, and value something radically individualistic for themselves. I present a painting; everyone communicates something with the essence of the painting, including those who hate it; the painting is a black canvas in your own head.

Not to underestimate nor consider myself any more intelligent than others, but from this high ideal, what I do recognise, is somewhat poor powers of concentration, that people like yourself are oftentimes, prone to display, evidently finding solace in believing that one can easily contemplate the works, ideas and expressions of others, even at a cursory glance. It is only when you, yourself, attempt to express your self, that you may, or may not become soberingly aware to your level of thought relating to what is intrinsic abounds Satanism.

To simply convince yourself that you too can create, can express your ideas in such a way, if only you put your mind to it. And I'm sure you can; I'm not doubting your intelligences, but, it is frustrating to see such a waste of potential in what would otherwise be a well respected ally. I was hoping to befriend you and Jake999 as allies, still do, as I'm not prone to be malevolent to those with the propensity to change this Judeo-shithole society, and so, it frustrates me somewhat, that you, and he, are reluctant to see me fall in line challenging the ways, and ideas, of the west, to promote change, a life affirming way of life, of vectoring the verb, the speak, of change. but that I am not talking to the mind of certain men is evident.

By devaluing what I present, you are, in some small, unintentional way, defending the Judeo-Christian ways and ideas; lending to obscure my positive left pathworking, for others inspirations, who may, or may not, take inspiration from my somewhat heterodox cerebrations, notes, inspired by, that which has only affirmed value, in what I feel is natural.
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#56916 - 07/15/11 07:12 PM Re: Some criticisms/questions for Satanists [Re: Dan_Dread]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I'm not trying to convey an air of indifference, so make something up about why I can't see the point in being negative about somebody I don't even know anything about.

I try and read all your replies, I appreciate them. Nobody forces me, I value this site and even if the tone which is expressed to my views is unsympathetic, I can still attempt to derive value in what is being said. The latest ones directed at my notes were just too negative though. I'm sure it's due to misunderstanding of cause.

I'm not dishonourable, I'm just annoying. Now you can relinquish your animosity and be overtly friendly to make me suspicious or just be relaxed and stop fussing about nothing at all and be friends. It makes no difference to me, as I'll use the chance to prove I'm worth getting along with.
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