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#58496 - 08/22/11 11:41 PM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Squiddles]
Nyte Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Squiddles

Frankly, given that the same paranormal things have been rumored for thousands of years, I think if there were anything real to it by now we would have the technological knowledge to unambiguously prove it.


Think very closely about that idea of yours for a moment. Then think about this....we only know about 29% of the animal life that's in our oceans (as of 2010) or so they "think" http://www.oceanleadership.org/2011/worl...han-our-oceans/
....

And we only use between .01% to .10% of our brains or so they "think" http://scienceray.com/biology/human-biology/how-much-brain-do-we-use/
......

And we still don't know exactly how big the universe really is, which NASA even readily admits. So it is possible that we don't have the technology to prove or disprove ghosts yet.

I personally don't know if there is or isn't ghosts. I can't prove either way and obviously neither can science. At least not yet.
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#58498 - 08/23/11 12:14 AM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Nyte]
Squiddles Offline
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Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 17
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Nyte
......

And we still don't know exactly how big the universe really is, which NASA even readily admits. So it is possible that we don't have the technology to prove or disprove ghosts yet.

Oh there is puh-lenty we don't know! But these are things (ghosts, PK) people have claimed to have witnessed (i.e., locally detectable here on earth without technological aid) as real for millennia, yet there is never hard evidence that cannot be duplicated with some simple trickery.
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#58501 - 08/23/11 01:14 AM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Nyte]
The Zebu Offline
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For the sake of rhetoric, yes, ghosts could be real for all we know, just like the Christian God could be real.

 Quote:

And we only use between .01% to .10% of our brains or so they "think" http://scienceray.com/biology/human-biology/how-much-brain-do-we-use/


This is actually a common misinterpretation-- the first thing our imagination jumps to are wild speculations like, "what if we used 100% we'd have PSYCHIC POWARS OMG!!!1" But we do actually "use" that other 99% of our brains, simply unconsciously-- for processes like memory, circulation, respiration, digestion, etc. Such processes are best left to the unconscious-- unless you want the added responsibility of remembering to keep your blood running 24/7.

 Quote:

And we still don't know exactly how big the universe really is, which NASA even readily admits. So it is possible that we don't have the technology to prove or disprove ghosts yet.


As a general principle, the more empirical physics we map out, the more impersonal the universe seems. Discovering proof of a personalized phenomenon like "ghosts" somewhere in the middle of our ego-crushing scientific enlightenment would be a rather surprising anomaly indeed.


Edited by The Zebu (08/23/11 01:16 AM)
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#58549 - 08/24/11 09:09 AM Re: Paranormal? [Re: The Zebu]
when7iseleven Offline
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Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 187
Loc: High Peak, UK
"..........As a general principle, the more empirical physics we map out, the more impersonal the universe seems"

I would take the opposite view in that the more science discovers, the more personal to us the Universe becomes; as Poincare stated in the 19th century "It is impossible that there is a reality totally independent of the mind that conceives it, sees it or senses it; even if it did exist it would be totally inaccessible to us", & as we discover/theorise on the Quantum nature of the Universe his words have incresing resonnance.

Whilst the Universe appears chaotic, there are no doubts of a line of evolving complexity that has led to a structure complex enough to perceive it. Science tells us that we are descended from a single mother who lived 150,000 years ago in Africa, our DNA shows us that we are descended from a common ancestor with all other living things. We are........everything is....woven out of the primordial hydrogen that filled the Universe 14 billion years ago.......which evolved from symmetrical radiation; & if there was a before, we evolved from beyond whatever before can mean. Our minds are voven into the very fabric of the Universe & only appear independent of it because of our viewpoint of the whole. If it were possible to see the smallest structure of the Universe at the same time as seeing the largest structure of the Universe & see it as the whole rather than from our middle sized viewpoint, we would see that we are not apart from the Universe; the physical reality is a manifestation of our act of perceiving it.



Edited by when7iseleven (08/24/11 09:10 AM)
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#58553 - 08/24/11 11:42 AM Re: Paranormal? [Re: when7iseleven]
Squiddles Offline
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Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 17
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: when7iseleven
as Poincare stated in the 19th century "It is impossible that there is a reality totally independent of the mind that conceives it, sees it or senses it; even if it did exist it would be totally inaccessible to us"

When they finally photographed the far side of the moon in the 20th century, it showed a meteorite-battered surface - signs it had a real history during the billions of years it was unobservable/inaccessible to us.
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#58554 - 08/24/11 11:54 AM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Squiddles]
when7iseleven Offline
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& Quantum Theory would ask was it really there before it was observed?

Sorry, that's a one liner.............I'll expand tomorrow when I've more time


Edited by when7iseleven (08/24/11 12:04 PM)
Edit Reason: no thought one liner
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#58558 - 08/24/11 12:42 PM Re: Paranormal? [Re: when7iseleven]
Diavolo Offline
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Before you even go into this know that the reason a tennis ball does not "show" quantum behavior is its size. It's too damn big to be subject to those mechanics.

Even the neurons in your brain are too big to be subject to quantum behavior.

So whatever you'll propose to support the human eye seeing "ghosts" never is going to be big enough to be seen by us in the first place.

D.

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#58579 - 08/24/11 11:22 PM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Diavolo]
Nyte Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
I've written and re-written this reply 1/2 a dozen times and still feel I'm not quite explaining it how I "hear" it in my head but this reply I like best, so, here it goes....

If I was a New-Ager or a Christian I might jump to those conclusions, Zebu, but I didn't and don't. What I meant and obviously was missed, I don't think science nor technology has advanced enough to either explain or dismiss what people refer to as ghosts. At least not completely. There's a lot we don't know and a lot of learning we still have to do, which is what I was trying to point out because Squiddles claimed we should all ready be able to prove or disprove ghosts because of our current technologies. Science and technology may come back to make it very clear that because of what little bit we do use of our brains and, in which the way we use it, we simply fill in "gaps" (those moments when people "think/believe" they see ghosts) with figures that are familiar to us. Kind of like when ghost hunters think they‘ve heard words in all their recordings (our minds trying to make sense of sounds we hear). Our brains may actually cause those visions as a "comfort" or barrier of sorts for things that really, really bother us, or because subconsciously we were thinking about someone or something causing our eyes and/or mind to play tricks on us. I tend to lean more to that kind of an explanation myself, but I don't think technology and/or sciences have quite made it to the point of being able to prove or disprove things like ghosts just yet.

I probably won't see the answer either way in my life time, and to be honest, that doesn't bother me. As long as people are trying to figure out ways to prove and disprove ghosts it means that the human imagination will continue to develop more sciences and technologies to figure it out, and I'm good with that. When we become complacent in accepting whatever is told to us, no matter what, then I'll know we're literally "done" as the human race.

I don't see science as being ego-crushing nor the universe as being impersonal. I guess I just look at science and even the universe as they just ARE. I've dealt with medical sciences for 20+ years, kept track of some of the most incredible advancements through the years and we've been a part of some of the most changing advancements (even my own family on a bit more personal level). When the doctors can explain exactly how a body part works (the brain they still can't completely) and they can now affect it with medicines that we've helped test, it does become a bit more personal. Nothing ego-crushing in learning more, and possibly changing more, even possibilities of doing some good things along the way too. I may not be able to affect the entire universe but on a small scale we can affect it at our own level. So, I'm good with the sciences and technologies developing more along the way because when that stops, we've accepted everything we've been fed and no longer dream about what can be.

**Yes, I know. Forever the optimist I am......
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#58656 - 08/27/11 07:16 PM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Nyte]
Diavolo Offline
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I think the most obvious approach to the ghost question is not a matter of science but one of perception.

Most people always try to find an answer by complicating the matter but I think the most simple one would be to wonder if it is not just perception messing up.

I have tinnitus, which is, to those unfamiliar with it, a rather annoying and constant noise I hear in my head. Several things can cause it and in some cases, it can be so annoying it drives people into suicide. But the amazing thing about it is there actually being no sound. It is a phantom sound which we hear as clearly as any other sound but just isn't there at all. Our brain makes this sound up. It is purely a defect in perception.

I think those rare occasions people perceive ghosts might have an as simple explanation. Perception messing up or compiling something wrongly. Evidently, what our brain compiles is, even when wrong, as real as anything else out there but at the same time it might not be.

It explains things much simpler and more elegant than those useless additions about everything which science simply doesn't perceive at all.

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#58657 - 08/27/11 08:08 PM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Squiddles]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Squiddles
When they finally photographed the far side of the moon in the 20th century, it showed a meteorite-battered surface ...

Not to hijack the thread, but this makes me wonder what all of the meteor craters are doing on the side of the Moon that always faces the Earth. I suppose one could attribute them all to "near-Earth-misses", but considering the size of many of them, not to mention the Earth's strong gravity as a close-near-miss passed by, I would feel a strong inclination to start rolling up my trouserlegs.
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#58661 - 08/27/11 09:07 PM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Nyte]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
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Loc: Orlando, FL
I suppose I meant to refer to astronomy, quantum physics, etc, that point to a vast reality outside of average human awareness. I did not mean "ego-crushing" in a negative way, but rather emphasize that a proper scientific perspective helps alleviate unwarranted self-importance.

I guess I just don't see why the "ghost" point is being pushed so much. If there is a scientific explanation for "ghosts", it will probably have more to do with some other misidentified natural phenomena, rather than the conventional idea of "psychic energy" caused by humans.
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#58672 - 08/28/11 02:55 PM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Squiddles Offline
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Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 17
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Not to hijack the thread, but this makes me wonder what all of the meteor craters are doing on the side of the Moon that always faces the Earth. I suppose one could attribute them all to "near-Earth-misses", but considering the size of many of them, not to mention the Earth's strong gravity as a close-near-miss passed by, I would feel a strong inclination to start rolling up my trouserlegs.

The moon's unique features result in a near-perfect 3 or 4 billion year time-lapse record of impacts including many from meteors that could not even penetrate the earth's atmosphere today, so it looks worse than it is. But who knows when and where something like the Tunguska event might happen again?


Like winning lottery numbers, there are still armageddon-esque asteroids out there, it's just a matter of whether our orbits intersect. Of course when something like that happens it will make nuclear war look like a paintball game!
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#58692 - 08/29/11 12:33 AM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Squiddles]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Squiddles
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Not to hijack the thread, but this makes me wonder what all of the meteor craters are doing on the side of the Moon that always faces the Earth. I suppose one could attribute them all to "near-Earth-misses", but considering the size of many of them, not to mention the Earth's strong gravity as a close-near-miss passed by, I would feel a strong inclination to start rolling up my trouserlegs.

The moon's unique features result in a near-perfect 3 or 4 billion year time-lapse record of impacts including many from meteors that could not even penetrate the earth's atmosphere today, so it looks worse than it is.

Sure, but this still doesn't explain all the Moon-hits, large and small, which would seem to have come "directly from the Earth". Some speculations:

(1) The Moon is a captured satellite from somewhere else, picking up its Earthside meteor-hits before getting here.

(2) The Moon spun on an axis for awhile, like the Earth, and eventually came to a screeching halt just for the hell of it.

(3) The Earth and everything on it is an illusion, so meteors have no trouble saling right through it.

(4) Final, conclusive proof of Bible creationism! The "Genesis" #6:4 giants amused themselves by throwing big rocks at the Moon.
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#58698 - 08/29/11 07:40 AM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Could someone explain our genius here the moon rotates too.

The reason it appears not to is called synchronous rotation.

Djeez

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#58704 - 08/29/11 01:51 PM Re: Paranormal? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Squiddles Offline
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Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 17
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Sure, but this still doesn't explain all the Moon-hits, large and small, which would seem to have come "directly from the Earth".


Along the same lines, a full moon would appear to be illuminated by light that came directly from earth, but it most assuredly didn't - every once in a while you see our shadow (lunar eclipse). From our perspective, it may seem like the earth completely shields the side of the moon facing us, but this really isn't the case.

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Some speculations:

(1) The Moon is a captured satellite from somewhere else, picking up its Earthside meteor-hits before getting here.

(2) The Moon spun on an axis for awhile, like the Earth, and eventually came to a screeching halt just for the hell of it.

(3) The Earth and everything on it is an illusion, so meteors have no trouble saling right through it.

(4) Final, conclusive proof of Bible creationism! The "Genesis" #6:4 giants amused themselves by throwing big rocks at the Moon.

LOL. Now that's just crazy talk.
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