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#56743 - 07/12/11 11:00 PM The State and Revolution
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I recognise that there is a dark side to human nature, a heart of darkness, as evidenced by a study of history and by personal experience, and that might is right is an important part of my own Satanism.

I also realise, on the other hand, that an appreciation of consequences, effects, reality or common sense is part and parcel of my Satanism as well.

I therefore tend to determine what will make me most happy and successful and then find ways to control and influence my environment in order to achieve my vision, or my desired outcome.

I seek to actualise or make my personal picture concrete. I want to continue the process of gaining a distinctive consciousness and magical skill and I want to spread my influence as far as possible and over as many as possible. It is might is right, but within certain necessary constraints.

Some Questions

Are constraints to be respected by someone on the left hand path, or, are they, something unavoidable, within which a Satanist, must more or less, function?

If constraints are removed or ignored, then what sorts of actions will the left hand path practitioner be prepared to take, and upon what basis (if any such basis is even required) will they be undertaken?

There has been some conversation in other parts of the community lately, regarding Satanism and the left hand path and practical revolutionary actions in the world. How they are to be undertaken and whether they are legitimate, if such a word can be applied here.

The State and Revolution

I remember that the question of conducting revolution came up a few times in private conversation, during my years as a member of the communist party.

There were a number of models put forward and I offer them here for consideration.

The great national revolutions, such as the Russian, French etc. took place because there was a vanguard prepared to act, but also because there was a great deal of popular support for such a thing, based on genuine economic and social conditions, such as inequity of wealth, or poor living conditions etc. and because of all the propaganda around.

It seems to me that any revolution which expected to succeed would need to take account of The Guys Who Have The Guns. There are, people in any community who are authorised to have guns and authorised to use them within strict constraints. I think that any successful revolutionary attempt will need to take these guys into account, and will have to bring these guys on side or under control; or else the people who own these guys with guns are going to use them to seek revenge against anybody who threatens their power and control.

A last option was the use of small numbers of urban type guerrillas in underground cells attacking areas of importance, or critical systems etc., such as the electricity supply, important financial districts etc. These guys tend to get hunted down and killed or thrown in prison, by a state, pretty damn quickly.

I believe that revolution is not possible or even preferable, unless someone can point out the good reasons for it. What value can a revolution even have at this time?

I would be interested in what other members have to say about this.

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#56766 - 07/13/11 02:51 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
1)Are constraints to be respected by someone on the left hand path, or, are they, something unavoidable, within which a Satanist, must more or less, function?

2)If constraints are removed or ignored, then what sorts of actions will the left hand path practitioner be prepared to take, and upon what basis (if any such basis is even required) will they be undertaken?

1) Short answer: yes. Some constraints can be avoided, but at overall there will be some that are unavoidable. Just as normal humans have constraints in their daily lives, they'll have to live with it.

2) If I get this question right you are asking what ways a LHP-practitioner is willingly to take to remove or avoid constraints.
If that's the case the obvious answer would be "taking those actions to remove or avoid as long as it will positively influence him/her on long or short term.

 Quote:
I believe that revolution is not possible or even preferable, unless someone can point out the good reasons for it. What value can a revolution even have at this time?

Revolution is always possible if there is a shared goal and the willpower to form a front against an opposition.
A revolution at this time can alter certain ways of thinking or bring in change in society depending what is called wrong by the revolutionists.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#56788 - 07/14/11 12:43 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Are constraints to be respected by someone on the left hand path, or, are they, something unavoidable, within which a Satanist, must more or less, function?


It would depend on what the constraints are and how they prevent one from achieving his/her goals, what the possible consequences of bypassing them would be, and how far the individual is willing to go.

 Quote:
The great national revolutions, such as the Russian, French etc. took place because there was a vanguard prepared to act, but also because there was a great deal of popular support for such a thing


Naturally a revolution without support would be over as fast as it began. That being said, 18th century France and early 20th century Russia are far removed from anything today, except third world countries.

 Quote:
It seems to me that any revolution which expected to succeed would need to take account of The Guys Who Have The Guns. There are, people in any community who are authorised to have guns and authorised to use them within strict constraints. I think that any successful revolutionary attempt will need to take these guys into account, and will have to bring these guys on side or under control; or else the people who own these guys with guns are going to use them to seek revenge against anybody who threatens their power and control.


As a matter of course the opposition and its strengths and weaknesses will need to be assessed. It's called strategy. Nearly every revolution in history has always taken these sorts of things into account. The successful ones, anyway. Nothing new here.

 Quote:
I believe that revolution is not possible or even preferable, unless someone can point out the good reasons for it. What value can a revolution even have at this time?


What other reason should there be for a revolution but a good one? The problem with such mass movements as this would necessarily be determining what is good. For example, let's say that someone started a "Robin Hood Revolt", wherein the main goal is either equal distribution of wealth or the shift of wealth from the rich to the poor. Good for those without the wealth, bad for those with it, yes? The value of a revolution at this time will depend on the perspective of those involved.

Personally, if someone started a revolution that actually took hold, and I didn't agree with the motivating factors, you would find me on the other side of the clearly drawn line in the sand.
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#56815 - 07/14/11 10:21 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Draculesti]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 199
Loc: High Peak, UK
The only thing a revolution does is repalce one set of ruling classes with another, & ultimately all ruling classes fail either by revolution or self destruction:

http://holyjoe.org/poetry/shelley.htm

It's all part of the natural cycle


Edited by when7iseleven (07/14/11 10:22 AM)
Edit Reason: pressed send early
_________________________
There but for the Grace of I go I

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#56825 - 07/14/11 02:54 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
Not sure why you are worried about constraints, or what we even think of them. Satanism couldn't be more against them except for the ones you personally embrace, and those may be good for you.. but not me.. etc.. You are certainly thinking too much on this. The first step in removing yourself from a thought prison, if you will, is admitting you are creating most of it yourself. Some of those limits you have accepted are for survival and others are relics of your youth. You have to figure out that one for yourself. =)

No one makes mention of the primary skill of the Satanist. Not sure what others think but I think I can sum it up in one word: DIPLOMACY!

Might makes right fails on its face when you are outdone, and has no backup plan. When shots are fired they're instinctively fired in the direction of the aggression -- you never want to be seen as the instigator. Building alliances with others to achieve your ends and deal with larger problems always works better than going cock off on your own. Realize however that everyone is in it for themselves, and that they are only helping you until they get everything they want of you.

The guns don't always win even when there are lots of them. Hearts and minds have to be won or the use of force provides temporary results at best. An enemy has to be beaten like a disobedient step-son, but when the fight is over it's all the reverse. Confidence has to be restored, trust built, etc...

Life is based on a condition of inequality. I don't know if I am doing better then you if I am not sure you don't have less than me. Even if I work with you on something I still want you to have less than me... so does anyone else! How's that for honesty? Revolution doesn't happen because of inequality per se but rather that a situation has become intolerable. It never happens just because people don't like what is currently going on. Lots of people don't like what is happening, but everything is fine as long as they get enough food and can afford a place to live.

Our society is placated by the BoobTube, Jersey Shore, Jackass, the movie industry, and video games of the world. Music has even lost it's balls so to speak if you compare the trendy low-emotion tripe that is popular now with what existed ten or twenty years earlier. People are far more worried about this crap than themselves or the others around them. They're happy to scrape by as long as they have their mind occupied with this garbage. Why do people pay to watch other people live when they could just go out and do it themselves for nothing and get all of the rewards? The answer is that their lives are completely miserable, but they are able to divert their attention away from it with this drivel. It's just more exciting than anything happening in their neighborhood for sure.

Sometimes Satanism draws people to it for the same reason. People need to feel interesting, and they predominately do that now by being able to say they like this or that.

"Wow, you must be awesome if you are a Satanist!!! like they're evil right am I rite??!!?111"
"ikr!"

Nothing is really safe from this mentality so expect the general decline of society to continue for awhile. Eventually, we'll get tired of spectating our way through our lives and get out and do something. But, it'll probably take awhile. =) Your revolution won't happen because it's far less of a drag to put on a movie.

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#56911 - 07/15/11 04:58 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
I suggest you read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. That's probably the best book that deals with revolutions.
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#57041 - 07/18/11 01:24 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
I think that it is oplortant to remember that one does not need to act consciously to restraints to be free of them. In other words just because one can do something does not mean that they should. The satanist shouldn't care deeply about the perceptions of others unless you can profit from it.

In my personal experiences I would say that I've faced many social restraints just for the way I am. All my life others have tried to tell me "no" No, you're black you can't like metal" or "you're black and you have a grasp on how to properly proun the english language" and so on this has caused me to fully realize that I need not waste my time trying to justify any of my ideas or actions.

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#57149 - 07/19/11 12:18 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Meph9]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
There are no constraints- only consequences. We are "free" to drink bleach, murder etc. but they lead to such obviously undesirable consequences that we don't engage in them. Therefore we are constrained by the pragmatic. Many slaves are more or less constrained by self inflicted chains- fears, guilts, false beliefs/fear. Thus the only true way to imprison someone is through false belief (other wise it would be very difficult to physically constrain people).

In other words the reason why 90% of people obey the authority of 10% of those at top is purely mental- based on their fears, desire to serve, expectations etc. This is not always bad. Often were are made stronger by obeying laws and cooperating in groups. However, obviously those with guns or the guy at the top barking orders has no real power other than what is given. The other 100,000 people he constrains could easily rise up, out number him and over throw him if they so wished. Thus the tool of those in power always lies in fear, fantasy, cohersion etc. rather than real physical force (which is only used on rare occasion when the others don't work).

Getting to your point what does Satanism have to do with Communism? A satanist is personally responsible. He believes in elitism (that some are better than others) and naturally from this seeks to rise above others through self improvement/ambition. Communism believs (on the surface) of protecting the weak, we are all the same and in fact WAGING WAR AGAINST THE STRONG AND DOMINANT! Seriously study the philosophyical basis of Marxism it is in opposition to Satanism.

Yes perhaps you are getting exploited by the system and those at top. Then its possible you could benefit by trying to over throw them. But generally I don't find Marxism a healthy philosophy at all. It is an unnatural philosophy that leads to suffering and failure.
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http://www.hraftzer.weebly.com

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#57165 - 07/19/11 07:42 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
... What value can a revolution even have at this time?

It’s my next post after ‘New member introduction’. I’m new in The 600 club and I’m first time for my life in forum, where main language is English. My native language is Latvian and during the Soviet Union of course we (Latvians) spoke Russian more than Latvian and first foreign language for me is German. Of course I speak and read English, but in writing I can make some mistakes.

I’ve born in Soviet Union and lived more than half time of my life in it..., until time, when came Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev. I was actively (maybe not very radically) involved in soviet style communist activities… All 15 Soviet Republics in 1991 became independent and Latvia at August 21, 1991 as well. Latvia with other Baltic states from 1.5.2004 is part of EU… and even now in EU I am often visit places, museums in Brussels, London, Berlin…, where Karl Marx and other socialist thinkers lived, worked, wrote their great works… Maybe by myself I didn’t experienced the most extreme ‘state and revolution’, but many my both granddads and second husband of my grand mum did it… Yes, my ancestors experienced it… I liked these stories in my childhood. Even many of them died in sake of communist and socialist ideals…

Now in my country and not only in Baltic States, but in many parts of Europe – Spain, Italy, Greece and in the western EU countries) are quite inflammable situation. Only one example: 13.Jan.2009 Riga Riot - Protest against Latvian government . More tensionnow is in Latvia's neighborhood, in Belorussia.

And now we in Latvia are coming one very radical point. Very soon, already at Saturday, 23.07. ( Presidents speach in Latvian) we citizens can go and give our vote to resign our government and the most interesting fact, the ideology of this action comes from our previous president Valdis Zatlers… I can continue and explain more political and economic instability in Europe, especially my favorite topic about our currency - Euro, but I think – many of us know it already…

Satanists in Latvia have different opinions and of course I have my own. Maybe my own opinion will be raised on some tragedies of previous revolutions. I found good ground of my opinion in words of LaVey and he brilliantly formulated it in the 7. satanic statement: ‘Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development", has become the most vicious animal of all!’.

In revolution, even our times will be revealed real nature of man – it will be good lesson for RHP brood, religious freaks like xtians, east mystics etc… … Maybe some brainwashed suckers will grasp some some satanic truth! They will see – Left-Hand Path is true path of enlightened and we Satanists are right!
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In Sorte Diaboli

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#59720 - 10/03/11 01:11 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
A true Satanist would have no interest in participating in a populist revolution, unless it ultimately served their own purposes. Satanists treasure luxury, among other things. Jail is not a luxurious place. If you want to strap a piece of red cloth around your arm and be a revolutionary, I hope you like jail because that's where you're going. Revolutionary belief systems like Marxism venerate the idea of self-sacrifice, much like Christianity.

Satanism on the other hand (the left hand) is about manipulating events from the shadows. A true Satanic revolution would take you by surprise because you wouldn't even know it was happening in the first place. Stupidity is one of the Satanic sins, and despite what you believe or think, open revolution is most often stupid.
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~Ashley

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#59721 - 10/03/11 01:47 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
So then, this 'true' Satanist of yours would respect the authority of government, society, social mores etc, and as such stay in line with the status quo?

Surely no true Satanist would be as an adversary, as a Satan?

Sounds like being a 'true' Satanist can be properly understood as offering no more than lipservice.
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#59722 - 10/03/11 02:13 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Respect? I don't know about respect, but I've done pretty damned well USING the authority of government, society, social mores, etc and those who stay in line with the status quo. It's called being IN the world and not OF it.

You can be damned adversarial in a place you can freely move.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#59723 - 10/03/11 02:40 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Self-sacrifice can as easily be applied to those hunting down luxury at all costs; after all a life of slavery to get some trivialities in return feels pretty sacrificial too.

Not everyone adores luxury or is willing to do whatever it takes gathering that what is considered such. To some, being at conflict with the status quo is simply what they are and to suppress this inherent drive would be more "unsatanic" than to submit to it.

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#59727 - 10/03/11 01:02 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
A true Satanist would have no interest in participating in a populist revolution, unless it ultimately served their own purposes.


Here you are simply begging the question. Changing a corrupt and exploitative capitalist infrastructure would certainly serve many Satanists' purposes.

 Quote:
Satanists treasure luxury, among other things. Jail is not a luxurious place.


Satanists value physical pleasure, but we also value heresy and antinomianism.

Besides, Satan is the patron god of rebellion, not ineffectual complacency. Lucifer sparked a rebellion against a greater Divine Authority-- he didn't just kneel and kiss God's holy ass because he was afraid of punishment.

 Quote:
If you want to strap a piece of red cloth around your arm and be a revolutionary, I hope you like jail because that's where you're going.


Nobody said anything about armbands, you're just drawing up a stereotyped caricature of political activism.

And I'm pretty sure all revolutionaries are well-aware of the dangers involved.


Edited by The Zebu (10/03/11 01:07 PM)
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«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#59728 - 10/03/11 01:06 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: The Zebu]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
To tack on a little bit: Satanism is ultimately about the enjoyment of one's life. For some this includes lots of money and material possessions. But that does not make it true for everyone in all situations.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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