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#56743 - 07/12/11 11:00 PM The State and Revolution
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I recognise that there is a dark side to human nature, a heart of darkness, as evidenced by a study of history and by personal experience, and that might is right is an important part of my own Satanism.

I also realise, on the other hand, that an appreciation of consequences, effects, reality or common sense is part and parcel of my Satanism as well.

I therefore tend to determine what will make me most happy and successful and then find ways to control and influence my environment in order to achieve my vision, or my desired outcome.

I seek to actualise or make my personal picture concrete. I want to continue the process of gaining a distinctive consciousness and magical skill and I want to spread my influence as far as possible and over as many as possible. It is might is right, but within certain necessary constraints.

Some Questions

Are constraints to be respected by someone on the left hand path, or, are they, something unavoidable, within which a Satanist, must more or less, function?

If constraints are removed or ignored, then what sorts of actions will the left hand path practitioner be prepared to take, and upon what basis (if any such basis is even required) will they be undertaken?

There has been some conversation in other parts of the community lately, regarding Satanism and the left hand path and practical revolutionary actions in the world. How they are to be undertaken and whether they are legitimate, if such a word can be applied here.

The State and Revolution

I remember that the question of conducting revolution came up a few times in private conversation, during my years as a member of the communist party.

There were a number of models put forward and I offer them here for consideration.

The great national revolutions, such as the Russian, French etc. took place because there was a vanguard prepared to act, but also because there was a great deal of popular support for such a thing, based on genuine economic and social conditions, such as inequity of wealth, or poor living conditions etc. and because of all the propaganda around.

It seems to me that any revolution which expected to succeed would need to take account of The Guys Who Have The Guns. There are, people in any community who are authorised to have guns and authorised to use them within strict constraints. I think that any successful revolutionary attempt will need to take these guys into account, and will have to bring these guys on side or under control; or else the people who own these guys with guns are going to use them to seek revenge against anybody who threatens their power and control.

A last option was the use of small numbers of urban type guerrillas in underground cells attacking areas of importance, or critical systems etc., such as the electricity supply, important financial districts etc. These guys tend to get hunted down and killed or thrown in prison, by a state, pretty damn quickly.

I believe that revolution is not possible or even preferable, unless someone can point out the good reasons for it. What value can a revolution even have at this time?

I would be interested in what other members have to say about this.

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#56766 - 07/13/11 02:51 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3112
 Quote:
1)Are constraints to be respected by someone on the left hand path, or, are they, something unavoidable, within which a Satanist, must more or less, function?

2)If constraints are removed or ignored, then what sorts of actions will the left hand path practitioner be prepared to take, and upon what basis (if any such basis is even required) will they be undertaken?

1) Short answer: yes. Some constraints can be avoided, but at overall there will be some that are unavoidable. Just as normal humans have constraints in their daily lives, they'll have to live with it.

2) If I get this question right you are asking what ways a LHP-practitioner is willingly to take to remove or avoid constraints.
If that's the case the obvious answer would be "taking those actions to remove or avoid as long as it will positively influence him/her on long or short term.

 Quote:
I believe that revolution is not possible or even preferable, unless someone can point out the good reasons for it. What value can a revolution even have at this time?

Revolution is always possible if there is a shared goal and the willpower to form a front against an opposition.
A revolution at this time can alter certain ways of thinking or bring in change in society depending what is called wrong by the revolutionists.
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#56788 - 07/14/11 12:43 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Are constraints to be respected by someone on the left hand path, or, are they, something unavoidable, within which a Satanist, must more or less, function?


It would depend on what the constraints are and how they prevent one from achieving his/her goals, what the possible consequences of bypassing them would be, and how far the individual is willing to go.

 Quote:
The great national revolutions, such as the Russian, French etc. took place because there was a vanguard prepared to act, but also because there was a great deal of popular support for such a thing


Naturally a revolution without support would be over as fast as it began. That being said, 18th century France and early 20th century Russia are far removed from anything today, except third world countries.

 Quote:
It seems to me that any revolution which expected to succeed would need to take account of The Guys Who Have The Guns. There are, people in any community who are authorised to have guns and authorised to use them within strict constraints. I think that any successful revolutionary attempt will need to take these guys into account, and will have to bring these guys on side or under control; or else the people who own these guys with guns are going to use them to seek revenge against anybody who threatens their power and control.


As a matter of course the opposition and its strengths and weaknesses will need to be assessed. It's called strategy. Nearly every revolution in history has always taken these sorts of things into account. The successful ones, anyway. Nothing new here.

 Quote:
I believe that revolution is not possible or even preferable, unless someone can point out the good reasons for it. What value can a revolution even have at this time?


What other reason should there be for a revolution but a good one? The problem with such mass movements as this would necessarily be determining what is good. For example, let's say that someone started a "Robin Hood Revolt", wherein the main goal is either equal distribution of wealth or the shift of wealth from the rich to the poor. Good for those without the wealth, bad for those with it, yes? The value of a revolution at this time will depend on the perspective of those involved.

Personally, if someone started a revolution that actually took hold, and I didn't agree with the motivating factors, you would find me on the other side of the clearly drawn line in the sand.
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#56815 - 07/14/11 10:21 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Draculesti]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 187
Loc: High Peak, UK
The only thing a revolution does is repalce one set of ruling classes with another, & ultimately all ruling classes fail either by revolution or self destruction:

http://holyjoe.org/poetry/shelley.htm

It's all part of the natural cycle


Edited by when7iseleven (07/14/11 10:22 AM)
Edit Reason: pressed send early
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#56825 - 07/14/11 02:54 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
Not sure why you are worried about constraints, or what we even think of them. Satanism couldn't be more against them except for the ones you personally embrace, and those may be good for you.. but not me.. etc.. You are certainly thinking too much on this. The first step in removing yourself from a thought prison, if you will, is admitting you are creating most of it yourself. Some of those limits you have accepted are for survival and others are relics of your youth. You have to figure out that one for yourself. =)

No one makes mention of the primary skill of the Satanist. Not sure what others think but I think I can sum it up in one word: DIPLOMACY!

Might makes right fails on its face when you are outdone, and has no backup plan. When shots are fired they're instinctively fired in the direction of the aggression -- you never want to be seen as the instigator. Building alliances with others to achieve your ends and deal with larger problems always works better than going cock off on your own. Realize however that everyone is in it for themselves, and that they are only helping you until they get everything they want of you.

The guns don't always win even when there are lots of them. Hearts and minds have to be won or the use of force provides temporary results at best. An enemy has to be beaten like a disobedient step-son, but when the fight is over it's all the reverse. Confidence has to be restored, trust built, etc...

Life is based on a condition of inequality. I don't know if I am doing better then you if I am not sure you don't have less than me. Even if I work with you on something I still want you to have less than me... so does anyone else! How's that for honesty? Revolution doesn't happen because of inequality per se but rather that a situation has become intolerable. It never happens just because people don't like what is currently going on. Lots of people don't like what is happening, but everything is fine as long as they get enough food and can afford a place to live.

Our society is placated by the BoobTube, Jersey Shore, Jackass, the movie industry, and video games of the world. Music has even lost it's balls so to speak if you compare the trendy low-emotion tripe that is popular now with what existed ten or twenty years earlier. People are far more worried about this crap than themselves or the others around them. They're happy to scrape by as long as they have their mind occupied with this garbage. Why do people pay to watch other people live when they could just go out and do it themselves for nothing and get all of the rewards? The answer is that their lives are completely miserable, but they are able to divert their attention away from it with this drivel. It's just more exciting than anything happening in their neighborhood for sure.

Sometimes Satanism draws people to it for the same reason. People need to feel interesting, and they predominately do that now by being able to say they like this or that.

"Wow, you must be awesome if you are a Satanist!!! like they're evil right am I rite??!!?111"
"ikr!"

Nothing is really safe from this mentality so expect the general decline of society to continue for awhile. Eventually, we'll get tired of spectating our way through our lives and get out and do something. But, it'll probably take awhile. =) Your revolution won't happen because it's far less of a drag to put on a movie.

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#56911 - 07/15/11 04:58 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
I suggest you read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. That's probably the best book that deals with revolutions.
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#57041 - 07/18/11 01:24 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
I think that it is oplortant to remember that one does not need to act consciously to restraints to be free of them. In other words just because one can do something does not mean that they should. The satanist shouldn't care deeply about the perceptions of others unless you can profit from it.

In my personal experiences I would say that I've faced many social restraints just for the way I am. All my life others have tried to tell me "no" No, you're black you can't like metal" or "you're black and you have a grasp on how to properly proun the english language" and so on this has caused me to fully realize that I need not waste my time trying to justify any of my ideas or actions.

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#57149 - 07/19/11 12:18 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Meph9]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
There are no constraints- only consequences. We are "free" to drink bleach, murder etc. but they lead to such obviously undesirable consequences that we don't engage in them. Therefore we are constrained by the pragmatic. Many slaves are more or less constrained by self inflicted chains- fears, guilts, false beliefs/fear. Thus the only true way to imprison someone is through false belief (other wise it would be very difficult to physically constrain people).

In other words the reason why 90% of people obey the authority of 10% of those at top is purely mental- based on their fears, desire to serve, expectations etc. This is not always bad. Often were are made stronger by obeying laws and cooperating in groups. However, obviously those with guns or the guy at the top barking orders has no real power other than what is given. The other 100,000 people he constrains could easily rise up, out number him and over throw him if they so wished. Thus the tool of those in power always lies in fear, fantasy, cohersion etc. rather than real physical force (which is only used on rare occasion when the others don't work).

Getting to your point what does Satanism have to do with Communism? A satanist is personally responsible. He believes in elitism (that some are better than others) and naturally from this seeks to rise above others through self improvement/ambition. Communism believs (on the surface) of protecting the weak, we are all the same and in fact WAGING WAR AGAINST THE STRONG AND DOMINANT! Seriously study the philosophyical basis of Marxism it is in opposition to Satanism.

Yes perhaps you are getting exploited by the system and those at top. Then its possible you could benefit by trying to over throw them. But generally I don't find Marxism a healthy philosophy at all. It is an unnatural philosophy that leads to suffering and failure.
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#57165 - 07/19/11 07:42 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
... What value can a revolution even have at this time?

It’s my next post after ‘New member introduction’. I’m new in The 600 club and I’m first time for my life in forum, where main language is English. My native language is Latvian and during the Soviet Union of course we (Latvians) spoke Russian more than Latvian and first foreign language for me is German. Of course I speak and read English, but in writing I can make some mistakes.

I’ve born in Soviet Union and lived more than half time of my life in it..., until time, when came Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev. I was actively (maybe not very radically) involved in soviet style communist activities… All 15 Soviet Republics in 1991 became independent and Latvia at August 21, 1991 as well. Latvia with other Baltic states from 1.5.2004 is part of EU… and even now in EU I am often visit places, museums in Brussels, London, Berlin…, where Karl Marx and other socialist thinkers lived, worked, wrote their great works… Maybe by myself I didn’t experienced the most extreme ‘state and revolution’, but many my both granddads and second husband of my grand mum did it… Yes, my ancestors experienced it… I liked these stories in my childhood. Even many of them died in sake of communist and socialist ideals…

Now in my country and not only in Baltic States, but in many parts of Europe – Spain, Italy, Greece and in the western EU countries) are quite inflammable situation. Only one example: 13.Jan.2009 Riga Riot - Protest against Latvian government . More tensionnow is in Latvia's neighborhood, in Belorussia.

And now we in Latvia are coming one very radical point. Very soon, already at Saturday, 23.07. ( Presidents speach in Latvian) we citizens can go and give our vote to resign our government and the most interesting fact, the ideology of this action comes from our previous president Valdis Zatlers… I can continue and explain more political and economic instability in Europe, especially my favorite topic about our currency - Euro, but I think – many of us know it already…

Satanists in Latvia have different opinions and of course I have my own. Maybe my own opinion will be raised on some tragedies of previous revolutions. I found good ground of my opinion in words of LaVey and he brilliantly formulated it in the 7. satanic statement: ‘Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development", has become the most vicious animal of all!’.

In revolution, even our times will be revealed real nature of man – it will be good lesson for RHP brood, religious freaks like xtians, east mystics etc… … Maybe some brainwashed suckers will grasp some some satanic truth! They will see – Left-Hand Path is true path of enlightened and we Satanists are right!
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#59720 - 10/03/11 01:11 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
A true Satanist would have no interest in participating in a populist revolution, unless it ultimately served their own purposes. Satanists treasure luxury, among other things. Jail is not a luxurious place. If you want to strap a piece of red cloth around your arm and be a revolutionary, I hope you like jail because that's where you're going. Revolutionary belief systems like Marxism venerate the idea of self-sacrifice, much like Christianity.

Satanism on the other hand (the left hand) is about manipulating events from the shadows. A true Satanic revolution would take you by surprise because you wouldn't even know it was happening in the first place. Stupidity is one of the Satanic sins, and despite what you believe or think, open revolution is most often stupid.
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~Ashley

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#59721 - 10/03/11 01:47 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
So then, this 'true' Satanist of yours would respect the authority of government, society, social mores etc, and as such stay in line with the status quo?

Surely no true Satanist would be as an adversary, as a Satan?

Sounds like being a 'true' Satanist can be properly understood as offering no more than lipservice.
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#59722 - 10/03/11 02:13 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Respect? I don't know about respect, but I've done pretty damned well USING the authority of government, society, social mores, etc and those who stay in line with the status quo. It's called being IN the world and not OF it.

You can be damned adversarial in a place you can freely move.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#59723 - 10/03/11 02:40 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Self-sacrifice can as easily be applied to those hunting down luxury at all costs; after all a life of slavery to get some trivialities in return feels pretty sacrificial too.

Not everyone adores luxury or is willing to do whatever it takes gathering that what is considered such. To some, being at conflict with the status quo is simply what they are and to suppress this inherent drive would be more "unsatanic" than to submit to it.

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#59727 - 10/03/11 01:02 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
A true Satanist would have no interest in participating in a populist revolution, unless it ultimately served their own purposes.


Here you are simply begging the question. Changing a corrupt and exploitative capitalist infrastructure would certainly serve many Satanists' purposes.

 Quote:
Satanists treasure luxury, among other things. Jail is not a luxurious place.


Satanists value physical pleasure, but we also value heresy and antinomianism.

Besides, Satan is the patron god of rebellion, not ineffectual complacency. Lucifer sparked a rebellion against a greater Divine Authority-- he didn't just kneel and kiss God's holy ass because he was afraid of punishment.

 Quote:
If you want to strap a piece of red cloth around your arm and be a revolutionary, I hope you like jail because that's where you're going.


Nobody said anything about armbands, you're just drawing up a stereotyped caricature of political activism.

And I'm pretty sure all revolutionaries are well-aware of the dangers involved.


Edited by The Zebu (10/03/11 01:07 PM)
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#59728 - 10/03/11 01:06 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: The Zebu]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
To tack on a little bit: Satanism is ultimately about the enjoyment of one's life. For some this includes lots of money and material possessions. But that does not make it true for everyone in all situations.
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No gods. No masters.

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#59738 - 10/03/11 09:29 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: The Zebu]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
If a Satanist rebels against the status quo or something else then what do they expect to get? Is it like: ‘well I am a Satanist, so I will just rebel against whatever because that’s what I am supposed to do because I am a Satanist.’
I know some people who talked a lot about revolution and how they were all about breaking or changing the system. They blew their chance. They didn’t obtain any significant control of anything because nobody in power trusted them with anything of value, or else they were too disorganised and lacking in popular support, resources and courage to actually do anything significant. Revolutionary talk is usually just talk.
And meanwhile in another part of town, those who run the world continue to run the world. These people live in palatial homes, are super rich, own vast amounts of property, fuck the beautiful. They influence government policy by bankrolling parties and supporting candidates, they profit from empire by getting the armed forces deployed so the way can be cleared for their interests to be furthered or else they finance and provide the products which empire needs to operate, they control opinion by ownership of the media…
But anyway to each their own. I may be not as adversarial as some, but I get along okay.

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#59739 - 10/03/11 11:22 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Its sort of like the comparison between people that grew up hood and wiggers that dress and act a certain way because they think its cool. Some rep the devil, some just like the image.
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#59742 - 10/04/11 02:42 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
Yes, but don't you want to exercise a huge amount of power? Maybe you already do, in which case I say more of it to you.
I am a selfish and ambitious thing and I want control, pleasure and property. I have read your posts and you walk your path with authority and confidence. Are you sure that you can make revolution work? Wouldn't you just rather aim to take as much power as you can? I would like to hear your revolutionary plans if you would be willing to bring them up here. I have heard a few plans over the years, but nobody I know could make it work.

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#59745 - 10/04/11 08:16 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I'm no revolutionary, my path is my own. I just recognize the system of slavery in which we all exist for what it is, and spit in its face....metaphorically speaking. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the same luxuries as any other, I just don't see them as any sort of end goal. To resist is the greatest luxury.
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#59752 - 10/04/11 10:07 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Octavian]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3112
 Quote:
Yes, but don't you want to exercise a huge amount of power?

Don't be up with power that much. Those who tend to have a huge amount of power also tend to be the birds with the strongest locks on their cage.

It is commonly misinterpretated by most people who walk the LHP when talking about power. You are not the best Satanist with prestigious titles or leading functions or the one who has gotten the most visited website concerning Satanism or..., the best ones are those who know how handle themselves instead of trying to handle others.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#59760 - 10/04/11 03:46 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Octavian]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Octavian
I would like to hear your revolutionary plans if you would be willing to bring them up here. I have heard a few plans over the years, but nobody I know could make it work.


Dan's pretty much got his head on. Revolutions of the masses seldom last and seldom achieve anything but a restructuring of the status quo in favor of whatever new power elitist finds his ass in the driver's seat. The most successful and lasting of all revolutions are the "revolutions of ONE."
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#59761 - 10/04/11 04:15 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Jake999]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
I have seen some revolutions (on other side of iron curtain). I'm from Latvia and now I see some sparks in south countries of EU and Lybia etc. I don't take part in them - I think - revolutions are not for individualists. Revolutions are for herd... Herd get new masters and are in slave position again, again and again.
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#59783 - 10/05/11 04:05 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Latvian]
curiousNate Offline
lurker


Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 2
Change through open rebellion can only occur with massive forces behind it and will inevitably result in blood shed on a massive level which will make it harder on the rebels due to them becoming a negative figure. No revolution in the modern wold in a country such as ours requires a more covert resistance and biding time for the correct pieces to falling into place. But all in all a revolution will only succeeding in the short term for the same type of people will find control again the only solution is to split empires and eliminate positions where a singular person can grain more and more power (i.e. presidents has basically indoctrinated himself the supreme body of government with recent executive orders)these people will continue to appear with out major limitations on them. I apologize for any grammatical errors I've committed. sorry I'm new

Edited by curiousNate (10/05/11 04:05 AM)

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#59785 - 10/05/11 05:25 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Jake999]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
"revolutions of ONE" that's one of the best things I have read here. Thanks for that. I appreciate Dan's comments as well as they make sense to me.
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#59827 - 10/07/11 05:22 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Dan_Dread]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
I'm sorry it took me so long to respond, I had other things to do. The point I'm trying to make is that a rational Satanist wouldn't participate in any sort of demonstration or riot that would compromise his goals and standards. The cycle of revolution, peace, and strife is unending, so the rational thing to do is to find your place in that cycle in regards to your situation, your capability, and your desires. Consider the Occupy Wall Street movement - the individual Satanist has to contemplate the movement as it exists relative to his desires and goals and wonder if marching with the hippies is conducive to his will. If it is, then go ahead and march - in a smart way.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's easy to get swept up in social movements and later find yourself a place you didn't want to be. If opposing tyranny and oppression fits your will, then do it in the most intelligent way possible. But you always have to be mindful of the terrain that surrounds you lest you fall into a hole.
_________________________
~Ashley

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#59828 - 10/07/11 05:37 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
To Diavolo and The Zebu:

I over-generalized Satanism. Guilty.
_________________________
~Ashley

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#59831 - 10/07/11 06:47 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Ashley, for me it boils down to something quite simple. If Satanism can mean anything, it means nothing. Satan is the opposer, the adversary, the one that was not afraid to go against the grain, even if the odds were impossible. This is of course no call to martyrdom, but an expression of personal honour, as well as a matter of etymology. From where I stand if you aren't actually DOING Satanism, ie transgressing limitations both self imposed and placed before you, If you aren't driven to not only reject arbitrary authority but go one step further, the word Satanist ceases to mean much. Talking about Satanism and doing it are completely different things.

As an aside, I do of course understand that the modern 'LaVeyan' definition of what it is to be a Satanist is quite different but if you think about it, what was LaVey himself actually DOING? He actually MOVED against the system. He was a seriously antinomian motherfucker. Much like the way the liberal hippy jesus of the bible would probably be re-crucified by conservative christians post haste, people that think for themselves and colour outside the lines in the fashion of LaVey are generally ousted from the gilmorian CoS.
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#59832 - 10/07/11 10:52 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
"The peasants are revolting!" Well, of course.

Revolution has been in fashion particularly since the 18th Century; before that people really did believe in God, and it was supposed that he had anointed the various monarchies. Hence it would not only be in bad taste to overthrow them, but probably damning [literally] as well. Unless of course you could get the church behind you, or like Henry VIII create a fresh one to back you up.

The problem with revolutions is that, once you've torn everything down, you have to replace them, supposedly with something better. This can easily go wrong, as with the French Revolution. The American Revolution is arguably still a work in progress two centuries later.

Of course some revolutionaries don't bother with the work & hassle of replacement. They just like the idea of busting things up. The champ here was Sergey Nechayev, who lit as much of a fire under Lenin's ass as Marx.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#59834 - 10/08/11 12:57 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I have mixed feelings about the prospects of revolutionary activity. While it's always tempting to lash out against the tyranny of the existing order, the outcome almost always results in an equally oppressive (if not more) regime.

The revolution in Iran, for instance, saw the overthrow of a corrupt puppet government, that was replaced by a fanatical theocracy. Were the US thrown into political chaos, I have a slight suspicion that some Dominionist group might seize power and turn the nation into a neo-puritan nightmare.

 Quote:

Of course some revolutionaries don't bother with the work & hassle of replacement. They just like the idea of busting things up.


I've always had a liking for post-revolution insurrectionists. Even before the dust cleared in Russia, Lenin's Bolshevik regime was already brutally suppressing rival socialist factions and sowing the seeds of soviet totalitarianism, leading up to my bizarre crush on Fanya Kaplan... (there's just something incredibly sexy about trying to assassinate Lenin for his betrayal of the revolutionary spirit.)

Guess I am just a young and naive idealist...


Edited by The Zebu (10/08/11 12:58 AM)
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#59835 - 10/08/11 02:24 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: The Zebu]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I have mixed feelings about the prospects of revolutionary activity. While it's always tempting to lash out against the tyranny of the existing order, the outcome almost always results in an equally oppressive (if not more) regime...
I agree 100% with You. One example from my country (we were part of SU). Communists and socialists were not satisfied with czar regime and made famous October (red) revolution and then created Soviet Union, which was promised like a paradise for workers, inteligence etc…, but it became extreme oppressive with death camps, fear ideology, propagandas…, much more oppressive as previous...

I don't follow revolution leaders, because after revolution - they become similar or worse...
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#59836 - 10/08/11 03:24 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Latvian]
Latvian Offline
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Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
I think Satanism is about individualism and not applied for masses. Masses always need leaders who promise them perfect society, brotherhood and other pipedreams (fair attitude, equality),… Leaders ask only one think – loose individual liberty to gain collective happiness.

I prefer individual happiness. \:\)
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#59840 - 10/08/11 01:20 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Latvian]
Diavolo Offline
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Seriously, what does it mean to be an individual? It's a non-statement because everyone is an individual. It makes a person as unique as stating to be a human.

What is important is that what defines us as a person; the values we uphold and the principles we stand for. And it is exactly through these that we abandon this empty "individualism" and connect with similar people. It is through these we form tribes, become involved in "brotherhood". Through respecting ourselves for what we are, we respect those like ourselves.

Show me an "individual" and I show you weakness.






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#59841 - 10/08/11 01:59 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Latvian]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Latvian
I think Satanism is about individualism and not applied for masses. Masses always need leaders who promise them perfect society, brotherhood and other pipedreams (fair attitude, equality),… Leaders ask only one think – loose individual liberty to gain collective happiness.

Something like that.
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#59845 - 10/09/11 05:06 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
Great example! \:\)

I'll use it in my teachers work!!!

It's one of the best, what I've seen to illustrate - impossibility to illuminate herd... I work as teacher from autumn 1993 and quite often I can make very similar videos. Even when I was pastor - it was the same.
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#59846 - 10/09/11 05:13 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Diavolo]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
...we abandon this empty "individualism" and connect with similar people... Through respecting ourselves for what we are, we respect those like ourselves.
Brilliant formulation of healthy individualism.

It's the reason why I've joined 'the 600 club'! I was a bit too individualistic, even as satanist and now I fulfill, what I missed in my life... \:\)
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#60826 - 11/02/11 07:03 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
halfchaos Offline
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Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 57
Loc: ^NY
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
The American Revolution is arguably still a work in progress two centuries later.


Is it? I wonder ...
The Mayflower was stocked with alcohol that would much later birth the 21st amendment which in turn birthed organized crime in the United States as we know it to be presently. Such in turn taught people that prohibiting the transportation of such things was not enough and that the possession itself must be prohibited. As such our prisons in the USA have doubled in population since 1985 and many people believe this to be a manipulation of the drug market such as to monopolize an industry in their favor. In turn what was once an isolated nation that kept to itself has become one of the most influential nations in the world by way of military prowess at the expense of everything else including it's own people.

As you say, a work in progress ... but it is not a forward progress by any means. The founding fathers grew and smoked cannabis, drank alcohol and cared nothing for the affairs of europe, asia or the middle east. Such is what they were running from and they encouraged immigration only such as to allow others to escape such things as they did themselves.

I would not consider such differences between then and now to be progress by any means. Sorry if I ventured a bit off topic here. Just speaking my mind as I have been thinking about that recently quite a lot.

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#61761 - 11/24/11 12:22 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Latvian]
Ashley Corinne Offline
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Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
...

Edited by Ashley Corinne (11/24/11 12:24 PM)
Edit Reason: Mistake
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#61762 - 11/24/11 12:25 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Dan_Dread]
Ashley Corinne Offline
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Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
I agree with you on several points. Although I'm a student of LaVey--as most of us Satanists are to some degree--I can easily see that the CoS was, at least initially, a religion of "Anton worship." And that's all part of LaVey's philosophy, of course. But one precept Old Man LaVey taught was, "Indulgence, NOT Compulsion." That extends to rebelliousness. To be compulsively rebellious is as foolish as being compulsively subservient, or any other compulsion.

The Conservative Right in America is tantamount to theocracy and they must be toppled, no question. But Satanism is about strength AND wisdom. One is nothing without the other.
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#61768 - 11/24/11 03:21 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well, falling back on LaVey for thou shalts and thou shalt nots misses the point, from where I sit. With that said, some root ourselves in where Anton was coming from, that being a contemporary manifestation of left hand path tradition, than the specifics of how he manifested it.

Satan represents contemporary heterodox/antinomian tradition, but more importantly the physical manifestation of this in our causal reality. If you look at what LaVey DID, rather than just what he said, you can easily see he was also about action rather than just words.

It was only posthumously that the CoS became a cult of LaVey worship, which in my opinion, based on the words of those that spent time with him, would have disgusted him. The pussified emaciated husk of the houseniggery do nothing philosophy now represented by the Church of Satan is in no was LHP or really even meaningful, as per the usage of a metaphorical Satan. This is the one think I agree with Aquino on;Satanism without a meaningful Satan, that being for me a matter of bringing that concept into the real through deeds, is vacuous.

As far as indulgence and compulsion are concerned, we are talking about a truism that transcends just Satanism, this is just a matter of rationality. Compulsive behavior is often counterproductive, regardless of your philosophical underpinnings.
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#61776 - 11/24/11 08:30 PM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: Dan_Dread]
thedeadidea Offline
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Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
If one is talking of revolution the type of change and how it is brought about will deem its worth. Because as it has always been The Devil is in the details.
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#61784 - 11/25/11 01:44 AM Re: The State and Revolution [Re: thedeadidea]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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The most adept toward revolution are those who's will is to change the world, not the people who believe more in the why and the to what. Megalomaniacs will always be at the forefront of real change, but they care little about the details of the change.
I'd love for the DaVincis to change the world, but I know to expect that when they do there will be a Stalin under that DaVinci mask.

There are few things in this world I would take great risk and sacrifice to change. I'm more concerned with what I can make out of my environment than influencing others.

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