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#57603 - 07/26/11 07:46 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
Here’s an idea I don’t think has gotten enough credit: requiring a license to become a gun owner. It’s a given in America and most other developed countries around the world that one cannot drive legally without first obtaining a license. Requiring a license allows the state to determine that a) the licensee meets certain background checks and b) the licensee has demonstrated to a professional instructor that he or she is competent to drive. Why should gun owners be held to a lesser standard?
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#57604 - 07/26/11 07:52 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3891
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Yes, and once the state regulates the guns, people that would already be attaining the weapons though black and grey channels(you know, the ones that use them) would suddenly find themselves unable to...oh wait...
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#57605 - 07/26/11 07:54 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Not to forget that it is exactly how the guy obtained his firearms.

D.

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#57606 - 07/26/11 09:19 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
So because criminals obtain guns illegally, gun ownership shouldn’t be regulated? Isn’t that the same as saying that because some people who commit crimes while driving cars aren’t licensed, drivers licenses aren’t a good idea?
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#57607 - 07/26/11 09:32 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What I'm saying is that he got his weapons by following State procedures. He didn't have to obtain them illegally.

People need to start realizing that the State does not protect anyone, they just clean up the mess.

D.

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#57608 - 07/26/11 09:59 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
I understand what you’re saying with regard to this incident. However, “the state does not protect anyone” seems a bit broad. I think it’s safe to say that a state-regulated military and police force play a significant role in keeping America safe (or at least keep it from descending into chaos). Regulation is not a cure-all, but it definitely beats anarchy.
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#57609 - 07/26/11 10:04 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
No, all they do is provide an illusion of safety. You can not stop anyone who has the will and takes the initiative.

Sure they keep people under control through fear of punishment but those are not the ones anyone needs to worry about. Those will not act either if their victims carry guns.

D.

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#57610 - 07/26/11 10:12 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Again, in Australia's case, regulation of firearms appears to have been quite effective in minimising gun related crime, gun related suicide and horrific accidents with children and guns etc.

This gun reform was driven by the Australian federal government and the states. It had enormous media approval and the majority of the public were behind it. Big consensus here.

There probably is a black market here, but I am not sure it has much of an impact on our way of life.

One other point: we don't really have a history of political extremism in this country. Australia had a strong labor tradition, but that has been dwindling and dying since the mid 1980's I think.

Many people here aren't really as politically conscious and committed as say the generation who had reached adulthood in the 1970's. Hell, this country couldn't really be bothered becoming a republic because it was considered too expensive to be bothered with. That, plus a healthy mistrust of politican's and the arrangements the politician's were considering putting in place for the election of a president.

Anyway, am still curious about Norway and their culture, politics etc.

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#57611 - 07/26/11 10:39 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: ]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I checked some figures and in 02-03 85% of the firearms to commit murder in Oz were unregistered. A drop in “suicide by firearm” numbers might appear as a good argument at first sight but admit, now they're jumping off a building, or in front of a train, so one really can't consider it a positive effect of gun control. Accidents with children and guns, sure a good argument but what are the numbers? 20 a year and maybe 25 in the past? Again, not quite that strong arguments when going deeper into them.

The problem with asking others to take care of you is becoming dependent upon them. Dependency implies control.

PS: I read some more and while indeed homicide with guns went down in Oz, homicide with knives went up. I guess it's going into the right direction.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (07/26/11 10:45 PM)
Edit Reason: added PS

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#57612 - 07/26/11 10:55 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Yes, those figures are interesting.

I guess it comes down to the sort of society the public wants or thinks it wants.

I would prefer a stable and safe country ,as that means I can get done what I want to get done and lead some sort of happy and contented life.

I am not sure if you have been here D, but the sense of calm and reasonable amount of safety here permeates our culture. It is a rather laid back culture without extreme viewpoints and the need to resort to violence in order to win a point or express those viewpoints.

There are certainly criminal acts here, but I still think we are moving in a desirable direction.

Government intervention in our lives and its role in framing and manipulating our culture is unavoidable. I minimise its impact in my life, but it still exists there as it embodies the legislative function and has a permanent government component.

(Just a question in regards to your politics: you have mentioned your fascist political position in the past. I am not sure how your politics relates to your conception of the state as a potentially undesirable control mechanism. Do Satanist's as a leadership caste just transcend it, or call the shots behind the scenes anyway.)

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#57613 - 07/26/11 11:10 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: ]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with figures is that they serve every argument as well. It's just a matter of knowing which one to use. I read somewhere today that in the USA each year 500 children die of fire-arm related accidents and that these dramas should be avoided at all costs; read severe gun control. But on 200 million fire-arms, that's quite a low number. Accidents do happen with everything. I didn't look it up but I'm sure more kids a year drown. Still, none out there is trying to control swimming pools.

I never been to Oz, although it's on my planning for next year, but I heard it is pretty laid back. We don't have that benefit any longer since we're importing trouble through importing cheap labor. Check crime statistics in Europe and you see a proportional increase between both. It used to be laid back here but now we lock our doors too.

I indeed endorse fascism but it's a system to herd the cattle. I hardly care at all. The State is nothing more than an annoyance, controlling those that allow it.

D.

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#57628 - 07/27/11 03:34 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
While the killer might have been stopped if someone on the island had a gun and knew how to use it we cant forget that more guns in circulation also means more guns in the hands of instable people.


If we operate under the assumption that most people aren't psychotic assholes who just want to kill people (as I believe is the case) then more guns means more guns in the hands of "good" people. In a world where everyone was packing heat, someone would think twice about trying to use theirs against another person.

Aside from the obvious advantage guns provide, there is also the intimidation factor: I have one, you do not, I win. But, if I have one and you have one as well then the odds are a little more evened out. So I think more people with guns is a good thing.

Gun control doesn't work. Period. Guns exist and they are not going anywhere.


Of course most people arent psychotic killers but you dont have to be to be able to murder another person or accidently cause death by the hand of a gun.

You say that gun control doesnt work but it works fine in Sweden for instance. It is rare that the police even has to reach for their guns and the amount of killings because of gun use (accidental or not) are very, very low. And of those that actually do happen the vast majority is internal "settlements" among heavy criminals.

Perhaps gun control wouldnt work in the US where you have a much bigger problem with crime, ghettos, gangs and criminality in general. However in a reasonable well functioning society gun control works well and that is indeed a fact.

You write that "Gun control doesn't work. Period" without any explanation. I live in a society where it does work fine and most countries surrounding mine has the same experiences. So in what way does it not work in our northern european countries according to you?

The statistics regarding gun related deaths in the norther countries are speaking for itself really.

With that being said there are examples of countries that work that are also gun liberal. Switzerland is one of those examples, the US is not.

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#57632 - 07/27/11 11:03 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The problem with figures is that they serve every argument as well. It's just a matter of knowing which one to use. I read somewhere today that in the USA each year 500 children die of fire-arm related accidents and that these dramas should be avoided at all costs; read severe gun control. But on 200 million fire-arms, that's quite a low number. Accidents do happen with everything. I didn't look it up but I'm sure more kids a year drown. Still, none out there is trying to control swimming pools.


I looked it up. In the US for 2007 (for some reason that's the latest available at the CDC site), some random items:

Accidental discharge of firearms: 613 (<1 year: 1, 1-4 years old: 18, 5-14 years old: 46)
Accidental drowning: 3,443 (<1 yr: 57, 1-4 years old: 458, 5-14 years old: 224)
Motor-vehicle accidents: 43,945
All accidents: 123,706
Suicides: 34,598

Homicides: 18,361 (12,632 by firearm) (A quick check of the FBI crime stats shows that homicide has been trending down for more than 20 years, although this 2007 number is up from the trend.)

Salmonella: 30
HIV: 11,295
Malignant neoplasms ("cancer"): 562,875
Diabetes: 71,382
Malnutrition: 2,644
Cardiovascular diseases: 806,156
Influenza and pneumonia: 52,717
All causes: 2,423,712

The general underlying context in such discussions appears to be responsibility, and the amount of responsibility the state should "allow" an individual to "have". Accidents, in general, are nobody's "fault", so there correspondingly less attention to those (except for kid's accidents, which is usually seen as the parent's "fault").

D pointed out nobody is trying to control pools. Diabetes has tracked up in step with sugar consumption over the last century, yet nobody is proposing national diet mandates. As long as you're doing it to yourself, it's all good. That's the reason the illegality of marijuana seems so hypocritical, and the reason that suicides (which is three times higher than gun homicides) don't make the news.
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#57633 - 07/27/11 11:54 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Autodidact]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
There's a saying amongst gun-owners: "When seconds count, the police are just minutes away."

Let's not also forget that the US has over 311,000,000 people living in it. Compare the above stats with a smaller country like the UK with a population of 60,356,419 (>1/5 of the US population), and it seems as though America is a crime-ridden slum and every crime committed is with a firearm. Then take a step back and run the numbers against the total population in the country, and what you're left with is a drop in the bucket.

 Quote:
In London alone - over the May Bank Holiday weekend (27-29th May 06) - Police recorded over 50 knife attacks

http://www.insight-security.com/facts-knife-crime-stats.htm#Statistics%20-%20the%20numbers

From the same CDC article that Auto mentioned--
 Quote:
The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

So, let's adjust the 2007 US population to be ~308mil. Out of those 2.5 million deaths that year, approximately 12,500 were gun-related homicides. Correct my math if it's wrong, but I'm getting .5% out of total deaths reported in 2007, and that's .004% gun-related homicides (not counting suicides) out of the total US population.

Moving on...
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#57634 - 07/27/11 12:18 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
In Europe the myth that the USA is a crime ridden country is easily sold but it's not paradise here either.

Sweden as an example, is indeed lower on gun-related crime, but one can hardly consider it on the right track when, at the same time, it is rape country number one in the Euro charts. You wonder why those Swedes like to rape so much. Then you look at the figures and you realize it is not really them.

And that's the problem here in Europe, we are importing crime but shhhht, don't mention that because that is racist.

And then people are surprised about a future in which Europe is burning. That can't be true, we Euros are civilized.

That's indeed the problem, we are too civilized.

D.

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