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#57540 - 07/25/11 12:11 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Well, I personally didn't shed any tears over either incident. But both ere certainly fucked up and I can't/wont condone either one.
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#57541 - 07/25/11 12:16 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:

Okay, I'll bite: how many deaths will I cause today and just how exactly am I causing them? Secondly, can you honestly say that "just by living our lives" we are intentionally causing these deaths?


Of course you are. We have a choice whether or not to support the system. I know that if I go to a knife fight with a friend and he pulls a knife out and cuts someone's throat that person will die. Sure I may not have done it, sure I may not have been able to stop him, and sure I may have been a 'passenger' but in the eyes of our own legal system I'm an accessory to the crime and guilty by association. Sure that legal system is fucked but it's based on the same moral system that is resulting in the outcry over Captain Norway's actions.

We're actually worse than that. We hand the system the knife and then applaud the action. When our system takes the natural resources from mineral rich countries to pay for our party while they starve and we withhold medical aid that could easily be rendered for the sake of profitability (which is ironic considering how dependent our economy is on their raw materials which we take to repay debt that we forced on them in the first place, but I digress), when it bombs countries for unilateral access to previously hostile markets, and we support it and applaud it through absence of responsibility, inaction and consent then we're all responsible. You can duck that responsibility or not. That's up to the individual but it doesn't make it any less true.

 Quote:
What makes this incident "worse" than all the other deaths that occur by way of famine, disease, conflict is that these kids were targeted specifically. It's like the difference between First Degree Murder and Involuntary Manslaughter. Both are illegal and will get you into some sort of trouble (both are "bad") but one is viewed as beingmore serious (worse). The difference is found in the intent.


If you want to get into the legalities of it if I take a negligent action which I know will likely result in the deaths of individuals then I'm guilty of Negligent Homicide, which depending on the state and the circumstances can carry the same penalties as 1st degree murder. Intent (guilty mind) is required for 'murder' by the definition of the state, yes, however knowingly partaking in something that you know will naturally kill people can be classed as such intent in any event and even if you say, "well it wasn't intentional" but it's obvious that death could result from an action you're negligent. The point is our legal system only judges people who step over the line of the state - not the state itself when it transgresses its own systems of social control. You can either take responsibility for that, given that's what your tacitly supporting, or not.

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Does this mean that I am expecting you to shed tears for those killed? Absolutely not; I certainly didn't. However I do think it is a fucked up situation and I see a big difference between this incident and the deaths that occur every day.


I'm yet to hear a reason why though, beyond, "the deaths of people that are caused directly by another matter more to me, or at least the same amount as the deaths I cause indirectly every single day".

 Quote:
In typing that last line, a thought occured to me: perhaps the other deaths are so easily ignored precisely because they do happen every day. Maybe if mass shootings like this happened every single day (in the developed countries) people would start viewing it as SSDD as well.


QED. What do you think? Car accidents happen every single day in the thousands. 18,460 murders in the US last year - how many people can genuinely say they give a shit? That's as many deaths as captain Oslo pulled off every 2 days. Where's the public outcry and the OMG how awful? Nowhere because it's just the way it is.

MF


Edited by MindFux (07/25/11 12:20 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#57542 - 07/25/11 12:42 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: MindFux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Of course you are. We have a choice whether or not to support the system. I know that if I go to a knife fight with a friend and he pulls a knife out and cuts someone's throat that person will die. Sure I may not have done it, sure I may not have been able to stop him, and sure I may have been a 'passenger' but in the eyes of our own legal system I'm an accessory to the crime and guilty by association. Sure that legal system is fucked but it's based on the same moral system that is resulting in the outcry over Captain Norway's actions.


None of that explains how I am intentionally causing countless deaths everyday just by living my life.

 Quote:
...You can duck that responsibility or not. That's up to the individual but it doesn't make it any less true.


There's no responsibility to be ducked because I am not responsible for it. Watch that "we" talk because I have no part in any of what you described.

 Quote:
If you want to get into the legalities of it if I take a negligent action which I know will likely result in the deaths of individuals then I'm guilty of Negligent Homicide, which depending on the state and the circumstances can carry the same penalties as 1st degree murder. Intent (guilty mind) is required for 'murder' by the definition of the state, yes, however knowingly partaking in something that you know will naturally kill people can be classed as such intent in any event and even if you say, "well it wasn't intentional" but it's obvious that death could result from an action you're negligent. The point is our legal system only judges people who step over the line of the state - not the state itself when it transgresses its own systems of social control. You can either take responsibility for that, given that's what your tacitly supporting, or not.


I was using it as an example. You could easily swap NH out for involuntary manslaughter and my point and the comparison would remain the same.

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I'm yet to hear a reason why though, beyond, "the deaths of people that are caused directly by another matter more to me, or at least the same amount as the deaths I cause indirectly every single day".


I've already laid out my reasoning throughout that entire post. You do not have to agree or even accept it. That's just where I am coming from on this matter.

 Quote:
QED. What do you think? Car accidents happen every single day in the thousands. 18,460 murders in the US last year - how many people can genuinely say they give a shit? That's as many deaths as captain Oslo pulled off every 2 days. Where's the public outcry and the OMG how awful? Nowhere because it's just the way it is.


Apples and oranges. The deaths you describe are spread out all over the country and the murders specifically are committed by different people. In any case, almost every individual murder receives some public outcry - some more than others. And as far as car wrecks are concerned, well, that's worlds apart from the methodical execution of people.
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#57543 - 07/25/11 01:07 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I wasn't really talking about their tears 6, I was talking about ours.


Excellent point. The USA sends drones to bomb schools in the Middle East, but who cares? A larger point could be made regarding media coverage, and how it affects our particular approaches to events such as this.

Me personally, I didn't give a rats shit about 9/11, even though I felt the earth shake when AA77 hit the Pentagon. I've said it before, I'll say it again, more people died in 2001 from Influenza than from Al Quaida. Where's our "War on the Flu"?

However, I do draw a line at The Next. And a dude that targets the largest group of children in his reach is, to me, the most despicable piece of garbage imaginable. If he had a point to make, he should've targeted government officials. Or business people. Children are not a threat to anyone except those who fear their own mortality.

JK
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#57545 - 07/25/11 01:29 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I really don't see any "tear shedding" going on here, and it's not like we're weeping uncontrollably with a wet keyboard and trembling fingers. Nobody here appears to be giving undue attention to the matter, and there seems to be an urge to criticize over-sentimentalism where none exists.

Plain and simple, we feel sympathy most for those within our own "sphere of consciousness", that is, our immediate friends, family, and neighbors. Modern media can bring all the misfortunes of the world to our doorstep, but always at a slightly superficial level, since it is unnatural for humans to feel a deeper sympathy for such large numbers of people outside of their own sphere of consciousness. This isn't inherently right or wrong, it just is. Whether or not a person empathizes with the victims of a foreign atrocity is an entirely personal and emotional matter-- no amount of logic or dialogue is going to make much of a difference.

Yes, there are worse atrocities going on. Yes, we live in a tyrannical capitalist empire built on greed and bloodshed and paid for by our own tax dollars. But that's still not going to stop me from feeling disgusted when I hear that some random nutcase shot dozens of kids. (and if you want to discuss other injustices, then just make a thread about it instead of complaining in this one.)

Nobody here is trying to say that this particular incident is "better" or "worse" than all the other problems of the world. This is a recent publicized event, and therefore closer to our sphere of consciousness, so naturally we are inclined to talk about it. Cause and effect. Action and reaction. It's the whole reason we're posting in this thread in the first place.


Edited by The Zebu (07/25/11 01:32 PM)
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#57546 - 07/25/11 01:31 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The media has a large effect on our compassion or emotional outrage. Just look at the natural disasters and see the disproportion between our affection and desire to financially help. The 2004 tsunami or the 2011 anyone? And compared to the 2004, one can't deny the effects in Japan are more devastating.

And of course, being the humans we are, it is bon ton to express our emotional affection in public. Often almost leading to a competition of being the most outraged. It's showing how really human we are, the right kind.

But truly, hardly anyone cares if it isn't close enough. Pretty soon it is business as usual and problems like what sweater to buy next or which songs to download to their iPod get overhand.

This civilization is going nowhere, this type of humanity is going nowhere and that's why I say, bring it all down. But hey, that objectionable, our society has made so much progress, we're really going somewhere and soon, all our problems will be solved, something will be invented or developed that makes everything all right. Sure, in a civilization where more a year is spent on perfume than on cancer research, where more is spent on beauty and anti-aging products than research at any other level, we are sure evolving in the right direction.

It doesn't matter if you rot from the inside as long as the outside looks pretty.

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#57550 - 07/25/11 02:26 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:
This civilization is going nowhere, this type of humanity is going nowhere and that's why I say, bring it all down.


That pretty much sums it all up in a neat sentence.

 Quote:

None of that explains how I am intentionally causing countless deaths everyday just by living my life.


It depends how you define intention. If you mean you are willfully propagating a system that you know will result in unnecessary death and doing nothing about it - then you are intentionally killing people (albeit indirectly). If you mean walking up to them and killing them with your own hand because you want to, then no, what you're doing is not intentional. Equivocation about the term 'intentional' aside, your life actions, my life actions, everyone's life actions by the consumption of gasoline, plastics, steel, oil, natural gas makes us all responsible for that death, irrespective of the definition of intentionality you want to hang your hat on. Defining intentional as 'willful' and using that as a sidestep may be satisfactory to you, and that's fine by me too, but I find it somewhat specious for my own purposes - which is up to me of course, lol.

Naturally you can come at the matter however you wish, hence the statement, "It's up to the individual" as to whether or not they accept that responsibility, but responsible most are, all the same.

With regards to the murder rate, my point wasn't that it was the 'same thing' but rather that the definition of a 'tragedy' in the prevalent social discourse of our age seems to be one mass act of death, rather than a system which is creating it, and has been creating it for generations which somehow has convinced those inside it that the line, "I didn't mean to" somehow cuts it as a way out.

MF


Edited by MindFux (07/25/11 02:32 PM)
Edit Reason: cleaning up

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#57552 - 07/25/11 03:21 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: MindFux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
If you mean you are willfully propagating a system that you know will result in unnecessary death and doing nothing about it - then you are intentionally killing people (albeit indirectly).


I exist within the system I was born into, it keeps me alive. It's not that I am "willfully propogating" anything; I do what I need to survive.

 Quote:
Equivocation about the term 'intentional' aside, your life actions, my life actions, everyone's life actions by the consumption of gasoline, plastics, steel, oil, natural gas makes us all responsible for that death, irrespective of the definition of intentionality you want to hang your hat on.


That sounds a lot like the argument "if you smoke weed, you support terrorism". I don't buy that one either.

 Quote:
With regards to the murder rate, my point wasn't that it was the 'same thing' but rather that the definition of a 'tragedy' in the prevalent social discourse of our age seems to be one mass act of death...


Right, and I agreed with you. A mass death is seen as a tragedy to a larger group of people than an individual death is.
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#57553 - 07/25/11 03:56 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:

That sounds a lot like the argument "if you smoke weed, you support terrorism". I don't buy that one either.


The rest of your post is all fair comment and how you want to live, and that's fine. Just to clarify, it's nothing like that argument. The concept that drugs fund terrorism is only marginally true, the fact your tax dollars funds mass murder and your employment amounts to slavery, and the system we're all forced to support provides us only with the choice between taking a subservient role in the workplace or starvation are unavoidable facts. How comfortable an individual is with that situation is down to the individual.

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#57554 - 07/25/11 04:04 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Let me say this first, this guy is a piece of shit and I think his whole ideals are as fucked up and insane as it gets.

But im wondering how he managed to get the whole world to look at him. He invaded the minds, thoughts and emotions of a lot of people. His work is out there now, and it seems people and the media cant get enough of it.

The media coverage doesnt stop and even while driving on the tube today, I saw his face everywhere. And what is quite unconventionell is that you can access his book and video even from links at our mainstream media, which is normally not the case here in Germany, as stuff would usually be blocked or links removed. It is even illegal to access informations about building bombs. And yet, the links are still there.

Im not saying that there is a hidden agenda, but somehow something is different with this case, and it stinks big time.
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#57556 - 07/25/11 04:56 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Empire of Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
One can assume his ideals are insane and fucked up but, on the other hand, looking at the evolution in Europe, one can wonder how perfect these ideals are.

How great is multiculturalism when it practically implies that the native population has to adapt towards the immigrants? How great is tolerance when it practically implies only that which is approved is tolerated? How great is freedom of opinion when it implies that if you ask the wrong questions, you'll be marginalized and demonized?

How much progress is needed before it evolves into regress?

D.

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#57557 - 07/25/11 05:09 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
In terms of this event I think that this is just a wake up call that despite many people would lke to have yuou believe terrorism comes in many forms not just Islamic, a concept which most Americans are still too dumb to realize...

To me this is a complete rebuttal of the idea that only "leftist islamic socialists" etc. use violence as some sort of political strategy. I await the idiot right wing spin doctors attempts to try and fortify there position that only people who disagree with their ideas is a threat

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#57558 - 07/25/11 05:42 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: MindFux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Fair enough, I retract my comparison.

However for the sake of argument I will say that I have not once filed my taxes. Not that it matters, the government just takes the money out of our paychecks anyway. Unless you work "under the table".

But even in the instance of the money being taken (read: stolen) out of our paychecks it is not as if I or others can be blamed for what the money goes to. And aside from the aforementioned "under the table" work there is no way to stop the government from taking money out of our paychecks anyways.

So even if our tax dollars being used by the government to kill people makes us somewhat culpable, it is only minimally so and certainly not enough to fill me with any feelings of guilt.
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#57560 - 07/25/11 06:17 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
It's not about feelings of guilt. The 'system' is allowed to function the way that it does because of the implied consent of us all. Being born into it and thus not being able to single handily rock its world doesn't remove responsibility for the actions that the 'system' partakes of in your name, with your consent through inaction. To some, the recognition of responsibility for that situation drives action, for others it does not. For some the feeling of being enslaved drives action, for others it does not. As always and with all things it is up to the individual. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' choice, just the choice an individual has to make for themselves, with the resultant implications for them.

MF.

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#57561 - 07/25/11 07:25 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Multiculturalism? What's that? Oh, oppressive philistinism? That doesn't constitute a culture though, I must be wrong.

Take an artists paint palette. For a lack of aesthetic appreciation, mix all the colours together until its all the same beige brown, then use that palette to paint a picture of society. A colourful name for something else.
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