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#57310 - 07/22/11 12:00 PM Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget.
Woland Moderator Offline
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http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/?hpt=hp_t1

Passing the site twice a day on my way to work.
Luckily I am out of town, vacation at my summerhouse.

Cowardly bastard fucks...

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#57312 - 07/22/11 12:33 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Woland Moderator Offline
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A parallel action was directed towards the summer camp of the youth organisation of The Norwegian Social Democrat Party. A man dressed up as a police officer has so far killed four youngsters.
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#57315 - 07/22/11 12:51 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Sean the Mystic Offline
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Will Europeans ever wake up? How did Viking warriors become such pathetic socialist untermenschen? Oh never mind, I guess it was that vile Nazarene. Now that Christianity is almost dead in northern Europe, what will replace it that can stand up to Islam? Or will you just submit to a new Middle Eastern slave religion?

Edited by Sean the Mystic (07/22/11 12:52 PM)
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#57317 - 07/22/11 01:09 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Sean the Mystic]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Will Europeans ever wake up? How did Viking warriors become such pathetic socialist untermenschen? Oh never mind, I guess it was that vile Nazarene.


Not only is Norway the least religious country in the world, they also have the highest life expectancy. So they must be doing something right.

 Quote:
Now that Christianity is almost dead in northern Europe, what will replace it that can stand up to Islam?


Using one religion to try and "stand up to" another one is retarded. Why replace one set of shackles with another? That seems counter-productive.

 Quote:
Or will you just submit to a new Middle Eastern slave religion?


Islam is hardly "new" but Europe does seem to be bending over like some drunken slut eager for a brutal ass-pounding administered by it. Luckily, there are a few who are willing to stand their ground. Unfortunately, they are the minority.

As a fan of Norway (sans Blowbama getting a Nobel) I hope whomever is responsible is brought to a swift end.
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#57318 - 07/22/11 01:16 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
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Too bad, Oslo is my fav town in Europe.

Of course bombing directly makes us think of Muslim radicalism but let's wait a while until there is more known. There could be other players.

I hope none of yours got hurt Woland.

D.

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#57319 - 07/22/11 01:22 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Sean the Mystic]
Woland Moderator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Sean the Mystic
Will Europeans ever wake up? How did Viking warriors become such pathetic socialist untermenschen? Oh never mind, I guess it was that vile Nazarene. Now that Christianity is almost dead in northern Europe, what will replace it that can stand up to Islam? Or will you just submit to a new Middle Eastern slave religion?


This is a prime example of retarded posting.
An individual who obviously knows nothing about Europe in general, and "Viking Warriors" in particular.
Looking on the previous postings done by this sorry excuse for a human being, I can only conclude that it is not worthy the kilobytes it insists on occupying.

It will put the fucking lotion in the basket and rest for a while.
Seeing that other mods might not agree with my action, I will merely give it a month will lotion & basket, for the time being.
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#57320 - 07/22/11 01:30 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Woland Moderator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Too bad, Oslo is my fav town in Europe.

Of course bombing directly makes us think of Muslim radicalism but let's wait a while until there is more known. There could be other players.

I hope none of yours got hurt Woland.

D.


Thanx D.

And true speak...

They police just arrested the guy who hit the socialist kiddies.
Big, blond, and of Scandinavian heritage...
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Woland

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#57323 - 07/22/11 02:25 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Woland Moderator Offline
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The bomb was a diversion.
Body-count at the summer-camp is now heading towards 30+ youngsters.
Cold blooded, systematic executions.

My woman is monitoring twitter etc.
News will follow.
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#57324 - 07/22/11 02:32 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Diavolo Offline
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The summer-camp attack felt more like a radical Right motive. It's not the most plausible target for Muslim terror.

D.

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#57326 - 07/22/11 02:51 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Indeed...

Twitter talks about a local police-officer recently converted to Islam, but I am kinda sceptical.

IMO religion plays a minor a part in this disgusting affair.
Hate crime? No doubt...
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#57329 - 07/22/11 03:33 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Managor Offline
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Doesn't even sound political. Sounds like some extremist terror. They're terrorist, they'll attack anything.
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#57330 - 07/22/11 03:37 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Managor]
TheInsane Offline
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News just came in to Swedish tv that a islamistic terror organisation has claimed that they were behind the explosions.

Nothing about the gunman yet but it seems like they have arrested him. No other reports.

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#57331 - 07/22/11 03:45 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Several "Islamist" organisations claims responsibility, as is to be expected.

Norwegian police is leaning towards one culprit being responsible for both actions.
They also says that the individual in question is not, and has never been, a member of the Norwegian police force.

We'll see...
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#57332 - 07/22/11 03:47 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
TheInsane Offline
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The islamic organisation has now denied their responsibility for the attacks.

People seem to act to fast for their own good...


Swedish tv now shows norwegian news instead of its normal programing.

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#57333 - 07/22/11 03:51 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Managor]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Managor
Doesn't even sound political. Sounds like some extremist terror. They're terrorist, they'll attack anything.


Which part of "shooting at the Labor Party youth camp" does not sound political to you?

D.

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#57334 - 07/22/11 03:56 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Managor Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: Managor
Doesn't even sound political. Sounds like some extremist terror. They're terrorist, they'll attack anything.


Which part of "shooting at the Labor Party youth camp" does not sound political to you?

D.


None of it does. Just because a Left-leaning place get shot up doesn't automatically mean Righties did it...If a Right leaning place got blown and shot up, would you blame terrorist or Lefties? Iraq is mad at Norway..And how do you hurt a country? Kill it's future generation and leaders.(AKA trying to blow the Prime Minister to bits)

That being said, it's best to keep speculation to a minimum until the facts actually come out.

Islamic terror groups are already claiming it, not some Right-wing extremist group.


Edited by Managor (07/22/11 04:01 PM)

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#57335 - 07/22/11 04:02 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TheInsane Offline
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 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
Now that Christianity is almost dead in northern Europe, what will replace it that can stand up to Islam?


Using one religion to try and "stand up to" another one is retarded. Why replace one set of shackles with another? That seems counter-productive.


At best religion can function as a unifying force with a people that can stand to resist a threatening force. In a scandinavian perspective Christianity is way less dangerous today than Islam has the potential to be.

Now I would prefer something else as that which unifies a people or nation in need but we also have to see what we have at hand. Im not sure about Norway but in Sweden alot of out national solidarity has been undermined with the multicultural project. What seems to rally people more than anything against unwanted muslim influence seems to be Christian in nature.

Atheists for example tend to be way more soft in their approach since critique towards Islam has become a taboo more with each year.

I would prefer a country that does not cling to Christianity but if we can use this religion to combat an even more unwanted religion then why not use it? I would see it as a means to an end. The end not actually involving Christianity at all.

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#57336 - 07/22/11 04:03 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Managor]
Diavolo Offline
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If tomorrow I shit my pants, Islamic Terror groups will claim that too. It does not mean anything.

Most terrorism in Europe has always been home-grown and about always political inspired. It wouldn't surprise me to find out some small radical native group is behind this.

If you got suicidals to deploy, those sure do a better job among some hundreds of youth than some lonely gunmen. I could be wrong but this smells like "made in Europe".

D.

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#57337 - 07/22/11 04:03 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Managor]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Managor
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: Managor
Doesn't even sound political. Sounds like some extremist terror. They're terrorist, they'll attack anything.


Which part of "shooting at the Labor Party youth camp" does not sound political to you?

D.


None of it does. Just because a Left-leaning place get shot up doesn't automatically mean Righties did it...If a Right leaning place got blown and shot up, would you blame terrorist or Lefties? Iraq is mad at Norway..And how do you hurt a country? Kill it's future generation and leaders.(AKA trying to blow the Prime Minister to bits)

That being said, it's best to keep speculation to a minimum until the facts actually come out.

Islamic terror groups are already claiming it, not some Right-wing extremist group.


The question was if it was political or not. Of course it is political - right wing or islamic or something else.

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#57339 - 07/22/11 04:09 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Managor Offline
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Posts: 110
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo


If you got suicidals to deploy, those sure do a better job among some hundreds of youth than some lonely gunmen. I could be wrong but this smells like "made in Europe".

D.


That I can agree with, and you're right, it is political, just not Rep Vs Lib(which was what my point was trying to get at, -not- that politics has nothing to do with it) I was just wording my thoughts incorrectly.

However, the whole thing is pretty fucked up regardless of who does it.


Edited by Managor (07/22/11 04:13 PM)

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#57343 - 07/22/11 04:46 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Managor]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Norways prime minister now confirms that the shooter is a Norwegian. Nothing said about possible religious or political views.
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#57346 - 07/22/11 05:00 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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I will never forgive. I will never forget. And for my money, Sean the fucking mystic can eat crap and die. This hurt. And it won't stop hurting anytime soon. And it's ok if people don't care about that. I don't want pity. But I object to being pissed on. Some fuck shot kids. You don't shoot kids. If I get to waterboard that man every hour of every day for the rest of my life it still won't be enough.
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#57352 - 07/22/11 05:35 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Hear hear!

Fucker will suffer.
Our lenient penitentiary system will do some.
My dear flock of fellow previous inmates will do what must be done.
I trust...
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#57357 - 07/22/11 06:19 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Firstly, Woland, I am glad you and yours are safe.

Now, I can see this thing going either way - Islamists or Right Nationalists.

Still way too little info at this point. And, as I understand it, under the European system, we may not know the true identity (with ethnic/religious data) until after the trial.

Just keep in mind that the PM is from Labour so it should come as no surprise that any enemies of the govt would hit the PM where it would have the maximum psychological impact - terrorism by definition.

Of course, my bet is on Islamists. Typically, in Europe, bombings (esp large bombs) are the stock in trade of Leftist and Islamic groups. The Right tends to shoot, stab or beat it's opponents directly. If this is a Nationalist bombing it would represent a significant tactical and ideological shift.
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#57374 - 07/22/11 07:28 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Woland
Cowardly bastard fucks...

Interesting. Amrika has been killing civilians in Afghanistan by remote controlled drones for some years. So far - around 500 civilians killed, including women and children.

Who calls those who control the drones and authorizes those attacks *cowardly bastard fucks* ?

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#57375 - 07/22/11 07:34 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SinisterMoon]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Who is Amrika?
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#57379 - 07/22/11 07:58 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Woland
Who is Amrika?

Rather - what is Amrika. Amrika is what those on the receiving end of State-sponsored terror call America. To wit - Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and places such as Yemen.

So far -in the last decade - Amrika has been responsible for (at a conservative estimate) the deaths of around half a million Muslims in such places.

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#57380 - 07/22/11 08:01 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
TheInsane Offline
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Posts: 356
Swedish media now says that the person probably is Anders Behring:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

The wiki naturally is updated all the time. In regards to politics he seems to have been a nationalist (allthough as I understand it not an extreme one in terms of ideology). He was also pro-sionist if that makes any difference.

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#57381 - 07/22/11 08:01 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SinisterMoon]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Rather - what is Amrika. Amrika is what those on the receiving end of State-sponsored terror call America. To wit - Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and places such as Yemen."

If you dislike it here so much, then move there.

M
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#57383 - 07/22/11 08:09 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Made in Europe it is.

Still, a whole lot of ravage for only one guy.

D.

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#57385 - 07/22/11 08:24 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SinisterMoon]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: SinisterMoon
 Originally Posted By: Woland
Cowardly bastard fucks...

Interesting. Amrika has been killing civilians in Afghanistan by remote controlled drones for some years. So far - around 500 civilians killed, including women and children.

Who calls those who control the drones and authorizes those attacks *cowardly bastard fucks* ?



So, what the fuck does this have to do with ANYTHING going on in Norway? REALLY?

We just saw this dolt Sean the Mystic tossed for a month for making an asinine comment about Viking warriors... but was it any less ignorant than this agendized crap? No, it wasn't.
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#57387 - 07/22/11 08:33 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jake999]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
So, what the fuck does this have to do with ANYTHING going on in Norway?

I thought that's obvious - sheeple condemn one attack as *terrorist* (and as cowardly blah blah blah) and yet don't seem to mention the greater *terrorism* that's committed by nation-States.

Anyways, it seems (breaking news) this attack in Norway is down to so-called *neo-nazis*.

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#57391 - 07/22/11 08:45 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Morgan]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
If you dislike it here so much, then move there.


You what? I was just giving info re what Amrika is - as perceived by others - and what has been reported, in the mainstream Western media, re drone attacks and their consequences (i.e civilian deaths).

Therefore, perhaps and IMO you assume too much about me.

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#57392 - 07/22/11 08:53 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SinisterMoon]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
No, you like to use that term as your own.

Re:
"Interesting. Amrika has been killing civilians in Afghanistan by remote controlled drones for some years. So far - around 500 civilians killed, including women and children."

Which had nothing to do with the Oslo tragedy. It just moved to derail the thread.

Sometimes you just like to talk bs just to talk. I would hope by now, each of you would use your own account instead of hopping on each other and trading user names. It gets tiring.

Morgan
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#57395 - 07/22/11 09:00 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Morgan]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Which had nothing to do with the Oslo tragedy. It just moved to derail the thread.

OK - on second thoughts you may be right, but in my defence I just thought it was somewhat hypocritical for someone to rant about *cowardly bastards* (or whatever it was) regarding *terrorist* attacks when there were IMO greater *cowardly bastards* doing even worse *terrorist* stuff.

But, point taken. I stand corrected.

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#57406 - 07/23/11 12:22 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SinisterMoon]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
No matter how much I consider tragedy to be inevitable for change to happen, I find nothing honorable in someone just shooting kids.

The death toll is simply amazing considering it only being the work of one. He'll be spree-killer number one in the charts but I doubt very much this accomplishment is something to be proud about.

D.


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#57413 - 07/23/11 03:42 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SinisterMoon]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: SinisterMoon
I just thought it was somewhat hypocritical for someone to rant about *cowardly bastards* (or whatever it was) regarding *terrorist* attacks when there were IMO greater *cowardly bastards* doing even worse *terrorist* stuff.

But, point taken. I stand corrected.



You'll be more than corrected SinisterShit.

So I "rant" about small-time cowardly bastards, when I should be concerned about "the big picture"?

You stupid, stupid FUCK!
One month in Limbo for you to.
Due to the emotional state I am in, I'll be letting other mods decide if a stronger reaction is deserved.

Death toll is now 91 individuals.
The murdering bastard cowardly did in 84 kids...
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Woland

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#57415 - 07/23/11 04:15 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Mums best boy...

32 years old, freemason, living with his mum.

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Woland

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#57416 - 07/23/11 04:20 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Wicked Satanist Offline
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Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 244
Loc: Michigan
WOW! What The Fuck?

No matter WHERE it happens, shit like this is tragic. Even as sadistic and twisted and some terrorists are, you don't fucking shoot kids. What in the hell have they done to deserve to be slaughtered like this?

I'm guessing that is the piece of shit who shot up those people... those children... wow! I can only hope that he's given to the family of the victims, for even 5 minutes... so they could tear his limbs off with their bare hands.
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#57417 - 07/23/11 04:27 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Although I, like Woland, am biased, let it be known that what happened yesterday was an atrocity of unbelievable magnitude, and that making cheap points off it here - or anywhere - is not just petty; it's downright stupid. If people want to use it to serve some agenda, be it political or philosophical, they don't have to do it here. Or anywhere near me, for that matter.

The perpetrator or perpetrators who did this were sub-human scum first and members of a cause second. Sure, we could debate it at some point, but last night somebody killed nearly one hundred kids. Don't score points on it. Act like you all know what that means. Woland is not over-reacting.
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#57419 - 07/23/11 04:39 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SinisterMoon]
Aries9 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
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 Originally Posted By: SinisterMoon
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Which had nothing to do with the Oslo tragedy. It just moved to derail the thread.

OK - on second thoughts you may be right, but in my defence I just thought it was somewhat hypocritical for someone to rant about *cowardly bastards* (or whatever it was) regarding *terrorist* attacks when there were IMO greater *cowardly bastards* doing even worse *terrorist* stuff.

But, point taken. I stand corrected.



The only institution allowed to murder kids is NATO and the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. They will tell you when and when not to feel bad and if you don't like it you will be ostracized from society.

This incident although tragic is but a scratch on the surface to the reality of what happens on a DAILY basis in this world. Do I like it, no, but this is humanity and all it's glory. If you really want to look at the dark side of humanity than shield yourself away when it shows it's head and accept the fact that you truly are a hypocrite.

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#57421 - 07/23/11 04:45 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Thank you Maw.

I will now get off the fuckin' internet, and do what is sensible in situations like this.

Build! I will build...
Carpentry; here I come.
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Woland

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#57422 - 07/23/11 04:47 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Aries9]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I'm sorry, you must not have heard me warn people in no uncertain terms to refrain from scoring cheap points on the deluded actions of a madman who killed nearly one hundred children in a cowardly, brutal massacre. Can you shut your whore mouth now?
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#57423 - 07/23/11 04:57 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Aries9 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 11
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
I'm sorry, you must not have heard me warn people in no uncertain terms to refrain from scoring cheap points on the deluded actions of a madman who killed nearly one hundred children in a cowardly, brutal massacre. Can you shut your whore mouth now?


I didn't realize you had the monopoly on pity of those that died. An apologetic ad hominem let me know in no uncertain terms that how I feel doesn't matter. Thank you for clarifying the matter.

Tell me what I should feel and say so not to disturb this monument to emotion you have. Who did you know that died there?

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#57424 - 07/23/11 05:00 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Aries9]
Daafje666 Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 73
Loc: The Netherlands
Show some fucking respect dude!
It's not a matter of how much people did you know, if this happens in your country or near you it gets to you.
_________________________
That's why.

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#57425 - 07/23/11 05:02 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Aries9]
Wicked Satanist Offline
member


Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 244
Loc: Michigan
 Originally Posted By: Aries9
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
I'm sorry, you must not have heard me warn people in no uncertain terms to refrain from scoring cheap points on the deluded actions of a madman who killed nearly one hundred children in a cowardly, brutal massacre. Can you shut your whore mouth now?


I didn't realize you had the monopoly on pity of those that died. An apologetic ad hominem let me know in no uncertain terms that how I feel doesn't matter. Thank you for clarifying the matter.

Tell me what I should feel and say so not to disturb this monument to emotion you have. Who did you know that died there?


How in the fuck do you get the twisted message that he was "monopolizing pity" when he told you to stop scoring points (adding stupid fucking posts) on this thread?

And you pointing out that ONLY NATO has the right to murder kids isn't showing any kind of fucking pity. Go die in a fucking fire!
_________________________
Forever in Darkness,
Timothy

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#57426 - 07/23/11 05:03 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Aries9]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Just find something else to talk about, please. I don't want to play silly games. It's really fairly simple. Yes, people are killed all the time. Yes, the dark side of human nature blah blah blah. I think I asked people nicely at first.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#57427 - 07/23/11 05:03 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I have been watching the news reports on the TV here in Sydney.

My thoughts are with you Skaff and Woland and everybody else over there at the moment.

I hate criminal scum and I am an advocate of Lex Talionis, like a few of us here are, so that's what my position is.

I hope they throw the book at him or anybody else involved.

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#57428 - 07/23/11 05:17 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Aries9 Offline
temp ban
stranger


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 11
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
Just find something else to talk about, please. I don't want to play silly games. It's really fairly simple. Yes, people are killed all the time. Yes, the dark side of human nature blah blah blah. I think I asked people nicely at first.


I heard about the headlines, I read this thread starting at the end. I seen something I felt the need to comment on.

It's tragic, I'm not saying it's ok or trying to make a philosophical speech nor am I playing games. I've dealt with the after effects of terrorism when they affected people I care about so I know the emotions that come into play.

When children die I see that as such a horrible waste of life yet like I said in my first post, it's not worth mentioning as long as it's not in a certain geographical region.


Temp banned, you don't try to score off topic philosophy/political points with dead children... Morgan


Edited by Morgan (07/23/11 10:38 AM)
Edit Reason: information for the mutliname account users

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#57429 - 07/23/11 05:40 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Aries9]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I'm sorry, but making a point is exactly what you're doing. Yes, I care about kids dying wherever they are, and whatever the cause of their demise. You can hardly expect to denounce people for the lack of media coverage on other child deaths.

As for whether I knew anybody there, I actually don't know yet. They're still dredging for bodies. I DON'T KNOW. And that's hard. Neither does it matter if I did. Those were real kids with real lives and real family that loved them.

Comparing it to atrocities around the third world and saying it's hypocritical to care about our own but seemingly not everyone else because those other deaths weren't splashed across the headlines is completely misguided. You indict NATO as the same as a man who set out to murder children in order to create terror. NATO pursue legitimate targets. Yes, children die from attacks perpetrated by everyone. This should not deter us from doing the right thing. Not anywhere. Not anywhen.

For what it's worth, I want the man in jail. Forever. I want him to suffer until he realizes what he's done. I don't want this to be an issue where people talk about causes or factions or issues that frankly neither condone, vindicate or excuse the cold-blooded murder of countless innocent children whose only crime was to care about politics. NATO has nothing to do with such an act. It's a red herring.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#57431 - 07/23/11 08:25 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Aries9]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Aries9
When children die I see that as such a horrible waste of life yet like I said in my first post, it's not worth mentioning as long as it's not in a certain geographical region.


There are times to debate about things and there are times to not debate about them. Happenings like these affect people emotionally and these emotions will overrule everything. To most of us a phenomena like this is abstract; numbers and words but to people closer to it, it is very very real.

Trying to put anything into proportion does not make it less real or less painful for them at this moment.

D.

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#57434 - 07/23/11 10:48 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Anyone curious about the guy can read the writing he had on document.no here. Doc.no is offline, either by traffic overload or because they're cleaning up.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60705175/Anders-Breivik-From-Document-No

I can't guarantee if these are "real".

D.

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#57445 - 07/23/11 06:44 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
We know who you are, where you live and we are coming for you. If not today, then tomorrow, if not in 10 years, then in 50 years. We are in the process of flagging every single multiculturalist traitor in Western Europe. You will be punished for your treasonous acts against Europe, and Europeans. We will ensure that all category A and B traitors, the enablers of Islamisation and the destroyers of our cultures, nations and societies, will be executed and your property expropriated.

It will take us up to 70 years to win, but there is no doubt in our minds that we will eventually succeed. Quite ironically, the ongoing Islamisation that you so actively facilitate will be your downfall. Soon enough, the desperate cries of the European masses will indicate that your Multiculturalist regimes are near their end.

The Western European cultural Marxist/multiculturalist regimes will fall before 2083, of that you can be certain.


A European Declaration of Independence

D.

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#57447 - 07/24/11 03:28 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Managor]
a. don Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 60
 Originally Posted By: Managor
Doesn't even sound political. Sounds like some extremist terror. They're terrorist, they'll attack anything.


Terrorism is a form of dirty warfare which plays on massive fear psychology. Warfare is policy by other means. And considering that the attack was on a Labour Party camp. Chances are it is political.

And if it's true that Andrew Berzwick is the perpetrator of this crime, upon examination of his literature "A European Declaration 2083" I can assure you it was political.

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#57448 - 07/24/11 03:36 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Fist]
a. don Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 60
 Originally Posted By: Fist


Of course, my bet is on Islamists. Typically, in Europe, bombings (esp large bombs) are the stock in trade of Leftist and Islamic groups. The Right tends to shoot, stab or beat it's opponents directly. If this is a Nationalist bombing it would represent a significant tactical and ideological shift.



Surprisingly enough, Mr Berzwick (some form of right-wing extremist), who claims responsibility for these attacks, asserts that the spread of Islam and the decaying Christian precepts are because of Leftist "political correctness" and "multi-culturality", in other words, the "left-wing" tendency of religious tolerance.

This is starting to look like a new approach for the radical right.

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#57449 - 07/24/11 04:30 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
At the outset, let me state unequivocally that I find the willful murder of a single child to be a crime of the utmost severity. This particular action is absolutely reprehensible, and it's a shame that in Norway, his maximum sentence can be a meager 21 years. Hopefully, Norwegian prisons have a justice of their own, not unlike American pens.

This having been said, I see a certain difficulty. Moreso here, on a Satanic forum, where one person has already been temp-banned for politically incorrect inquiries. There are those who extoll certain "practical sinister deeds" in theory, yet seem unwilling to follow the logical train. I see no way for an ONA-type Satanist to condemn such an act of barbarism, in other words. And again, it was a barbaric act, no doubt.

The larger problem with such myopic models (such as the ONA) is that they engender the very thing they seek to eradicate. Extremism begets extremism, without fail. After 9/11, the U.S. marched lock-step against their own civil and constitutional rights. Patriot Act, anyone?

If one desires to see the Wheel greased (because it moves forward regardless), then one should be supporting practical measures of broad societal improvement. These latter do not entail bombing anything, or engaging in petty crimes to "instill fear" in the "magian mundanes," rather, as every shaper of history has understood, they involve transforming minds.

JK
_________________________



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#57450 - 07/24/11 05:22 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I see your concerns. Had this been only about the bombing, the terrorist attack wouldn't have been nearly as severe. As it is, the terrorist built, set and detonated the bomb as a diversion (apparently) so he could proceed to a nearby youth camp set on an inland isle. More than six hundred youths had congregated there for political debate, fun and games. Getting to the mainland could only take place by boat, unless you were a very strong swimmer and/or owned a wet suit. He dressed up as a police officer and stocked up on ammunition, and proceeded to summon the kids there to him. When they flocked around, he started shooting. He stalked the isle for a good, long time, firing several hundred aimed shots. Every target was shot at least twice. Several presumably died trying to reach the mainland. He surrendered to the police without putting up a fight.

Scoring points on this is not 'politically incorrect', it's monstrous. Bombing the government buildings and killing seven, injuring dozens, doesn't qualify in the slightest as anywhere near the monstrosity of targeting kids.

I've seen people express the same concerns elsewhere; it's hypocritical to grieve these children as opposed to the children who die every five seconds from hunger, the children who are violently drafted as child soldiers and so on. I've heard people claim ONA condones any action that leads to the furtherance of global conflict. My response to these people is they're either violently deluded or are trying to score points. Any alleged human being who kills kids to make a point needs serious punishment.

This is not global conflict. This is a fucking atrocious crime. It is reprehensible, cowardly and so misguided it cannot ever be lived down.

The bans were made in the interest of simple sense. Satanists do not condone murdering kids. If people want to start a war, they can start their own. But waging war on kids? Please.

I do not care what the swine believes. I do not care what cause he thinks he struck a blow for. I do not care how justified he feels. All I know is that he will pay, and pay dearly.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#57451 - 07/24/11 05:38 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
It is always the case that the closer you are to a certian situation, for whatever reason, the more you feel the impacts of it. I am not, in any way, close to Africa and whatever happens there, tragic or not, I am not greatly emotionally affected by it.

This on the other hand happened very close to me. Its my neighbour country where Ive been several times. I have personal connections in Norway and out countries are very close geographically, politically, socially etc.

The man who did this had an enormous dedication and was very cold blooded. Everything was planned for years and years and he explains most of it in his manifest. These deeds were seen a comercial campain for the manifest. He clearly writes that he wanted either 3 million euro (I think) to launch the manifest or he would have to go on to Plan B which happened to be this.

He wanted to change political Norway by force. I do not know what he thought would happen but I think that by his actions his enemies has grown stronger (or will in time) and that his own ideas will be pushed further back.

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#57452 - 07/24/11 05:47 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
Any alleged human being who kills kids to make a point needs serious punishment.


Sorry, I snipped the rest. The above statement is a RELIGION to me. Seriously. Elsewhere in this thread (if I'm not mistaken), you said you want him in jail/prison for life. NO. His punishment should be a slow death. A punishment that would make the gods themselves tremble. Spiked bats, prongs in the urethra, break everything that don't bleed, then make it bleed, cut everything off that won't bleed dude out, then rest him. For more pain.

My wife asked me once, "what is this Satanism?" I told her that it is ultimately (at least for me) a religion that holds up the
Next, as Pinnacle, as Evolution. You don't fuck with that, it is the ONE thing that is truly sacred.

However. And this is a big "however". I do not see how an advocate of ONA "praxis" could hold a view such as ours. For them, such an act would be vectored as the culling of magian mundanes, as they were. At least if they were being consistent.

JK
_________________________



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#57453 - 07/24/11 05:58 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Whatever gave you the idea I didn't want to see him punished in jail? Norwegian laws being what they are, he'll never get out. And he'll never be safe.

As for your concerns regarding what my words can be labeled as; whatever. You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. It's curious that you go on to say that your own point of view is a religion of the Next, but whatever.

Kids are collateral damage in wars every day across the world, but this was an intentional attack on kids. There is no positive label that can be attached to it, any way you choose to spin it.

If your life is somehow better by calling me religious, knock yourself out. I have no control of what spin you choose to put on this. I know that those kids did not have this coming.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#57456 - 07/24/11 06:47 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
For what it's worth, I want the man in jail. Forever. I want him to suffer until he realizes what he's done.


There's the quote. The rest of your shit needs to be stepped back from and re-evaluated in a clear light.

I AGREED with you. I said it was a RELIGION TO ME. How hard is this, dude? Re-read my post. Think about it. And if at the end of the day you think JK was slighting you, then we can have at it. We all know I like that shit . . .

JK

p.s. seriously, read again.
_________________________



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#57458 - 07/24/11 08:00 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
There are those who extoll certain "practical sinister deeds" in theory, yet seem unwilling to follow the logical train. I see no way for an ONA-type Satanist to condemn such an act of barbarism, in other words. And again, it was a barbaric act, no doubt.

The larger problem with such myopic models (such as the ONA) is that they engender the very thing they seek to eradicate. Extremism begets extremism, without fail. After 9/11, the U.S. marched lock-step against their own civil and constitutional rights. Patriot Act, anyone?

If one desires to see the Wheel greased (because it moves forward regardless), then one should be supporting practical measures of broad societal improvement. These latter do not entail bombing anything, or engaging in petty crimes to "instill fear" in the "magian mundanes," rather, as every shaper of history has understood, they involve transforming minds.

JK


I'm sorry if I can't live up to your stereotype King and that I see no honorable tactic in shooting children. I stated my reasons for that before. But this does not imply I am morally shocked by these acts nor do I consider them evil. It is simply not the type of choice I would make. Of course all would be easier if, as a Niner, I would become excited by these acts but, and this might come as a surprise, I am not a misanthrope nor do I particularly enjoy human suffering. It is not what turns me on.

This does however not imply I don't see the rationale behind the act, or the inevitability. Anyone reading 2083 will notice familiar themes and these are themes which have been pointed at before. As someone who endorses fascism, which whether we like it or not, is the logical transitional phase we will go through, what unfolds is predictable. You can not skip Imperium, it is a critical key-point.

I've mentioned in the past that in Europe the Right is on the move and many probably did find that a boring hypothesis of someone slightly deluded. But you could smell it in the air since years. The Right has been marginalized and demonized to such an extent, the pressure must escape; violently. C18 transformed to a cell structure years ago. Again here we see mentioning of that cell structure. Since dialogue is out of the question, only violent action remains as a method. And it is not pretty indeed.

So yes, I do see the inevitability but no, I don't think this was a that honorable approach. And certainly not do I prefer to “hurt” anyone's feelings at this moment, especially not of those I respect.

D.

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#57459 - 07/24/11 09:15 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
There is nothing noble about killing children. It is not evil, only despicable; abnormality in Nature's eyes.

Anyone man, woman, with a love for children would pledge to destroy those like Anders Behring Breivik, no thought to it, for it is inexplicably felt. The act of conclusion not despicable, but Noble justice, of removing that which defiles Nature, besickens her.

But who could do anything when the enemy comes baring peace, dressed as a protector; he was an insult to masculinity itself. He does not even deserve punishment, for any sense of resolve cannot be with him. He ought be incinerated like rubbish.

There is no such thing as good and evil in Nature's eyes; there abnormality cometh from men neglecting to feel, no love for women, no love for children. These men are not of us.

Odin's raven's, Huginn and Muninn, descend and croak woe of Odin's children— the "thought" and "memory" speaking late wisdom of too great a price on his shoulders to bare.
_________________________


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#57460 - 07/24/11 09:39 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
General comments:

If his goal was political terrorism, he very likely undermined his own cause. Nothing loses you public support like intentionally killing a group of kids - especially blond haired blue eyed kids. He would have gained much more sympathy and public support (and raised social consciousness) if he had directly attacked the Muslim community. Now, politically, every legitimate Right Nationalist who is concerned about the Islamification of Europe will be lumped in with this nut. He has actually set back the Nationalist movement. The political Left will use this attack to maximum political effect. Every Nationalist website, gathering and individual will now be under extra police scrutiny.

All the same, I now have more questions. From a practical stand point, planing an attack like this requires a fair bit of logistic and organizational support. I find it unlikely that he worked alone.

He used an ANFO bomb. Ok, but ANFO is a very insensitive explosive. It requires a high explosive and primary explosive to detonate it. In the Oklahoma City bombing, McVeigh used at least 100ft of det-cord (PETN) to set off his ANFO bomb. Where did this guy get high explosives and what did he use as a detonator?

What sort of gun did he use and where did he get it? I am not familiar with Norwegian gun laws but it seems to me that he had a military type assault rifle.

It seems that the police are being very selective as to what facts they release.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#57461 - 07/24/11 09:47 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Fist]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
His whole plan of operations is explained into detail in 2083. It is a step by step guide describing how he acquired and manufactured his armor, weapons and explosives.

It is undeniably he did harm the public image of the Right, if harm was still possible, but at the same time he did bring a document into circulation which will be read by a whole lot of people. And many of them will agree, even when disagreeing with his specific act.

D.

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#57462 - 07/24/11 10:16 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I'm sorry if I can't live up to your stereotype King and that I see no honorable tactic in shooting children.


I never typed you in any such regard, and certainly not with dual speakers (that's a pun of sorts, think about it). To Skaf, immediately prior, I said this: "I do not see how an advocate of ONA "praxis" could hold a view such as ours". If this is a question of hypocrisy or doublespeak, please let me know. I always took you to be the type dude (not unlike myself) who sometimes rejoins with points (solid though they may be) he does not subscribe to personally. My rejoinder was less to you than it was to those outspoken "Niners" who talk all day about the "practical Sinister".

So when I questioned your support (albeit rhetorical, as above) of the ONA paradigm, I was actually questioning the paradigm itself, and any who would throw their hat in that particular corner. I thought I made clear in my first thread post where I stand on this issue. If not, my apologies.

In any case, the points remain. It stands to be demonstrated how an ONA-type can dismiss such an action as unethical, anti-paradigmatic, or whatever.

JK

p.s. read what I write, in its totality, before jumping the gun
_________________________



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#57463 - 07/24/11 10:23 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
In any case, the points remain. It stands to be demonstrated how an ONA-type can dismiss such an action as unethical, anti-paradigmatic, or whatever.

JK

p.s. read what I write, in its totality, before jumping the gun


Again, this is a rather vague claim, maybe you should specify it. Now, ONA-type, almost appears as a straw man.

D.

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#57465 - 07/24/11 10:52 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Fist]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Norwegian gun laws are strict. The rifle is most likely either an illegally obtained full-auto long, a 5.56 to my eyes, or a stolen HK-416 (Norwegian issue), with some bells and whistles added. He had permits for the Glock and a sporting rifle, both of which can be obtained if you have undergone military training, taken a hunter's qualification, have no criminal record and attend a shooting club.

The nitrogen was legally obtained through a wholesaler. The accelerants required can be obtained by taking a demolitions course and getting approved. Once again, with residency and a clean record, no biggie.

Like yourself, I suspect a support and logistics group. He could of course have cooked up some home-made thermite, but this would require an acetylene burner or something equally hot.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#57466 - 07/24/11 11:02 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
In any case, the points remain. It stands to be demonstrated how an ONA-type can dismiss such an action as unethical, anti-paradigmatic, or whatever.

While I am hesistant to comment on this topic, and I hope none here of the Norwegian members has lost a close one, I should say you are viewing the ONA from a wrong angle.
Someone who adheres towards the ONA philosophy can dismiss this action as unethical. The simple reason here is that ONA should be seen as a collective that acts as one. Persuading Myatt or Long would be fruitless and asking ONA-types about their opinions of this deed will result in the same answer you'll get from almost anyone here.

I'm going to look further into this, following new and recent information. Perhaps Woland or Maw can keep us up-to-date? Being closer to it and having faster access towards new information..
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#57467 - 07/24/11 11:04 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Again, this is a rather vague claim, maybe you should specify it. Now, ONA-type, almost appears as a straw man.
D.


Where I live, the Washington Post advertises like this:

The Washington Post, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

Sorry, bro, but there will be no study notes forthcoming. You're smarter than this, so act like it . . .

JK
_________________________



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#57469 - 07/24/11 11:07 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Weapons: Ruger Mini 14 semi-automatic rifle, Glock 17 bullets with pure nicotine to create chemical rounds

 Quote:
As of 2011; the most popular primary explosive seems to be AP also referred to as Satan's Mother.
AP, although quite easy to manufacture, is an EXTREMELY dangerous substance which is likely to cause you great injury or even death. In the guides I have read about DDNP it is stated that this primary is very often disregarded since it is so difficult to make. This is deliberate misinformation as it is simply incorrect (If a chemistry amateur like myself can make Picric Acid AND DDNP on the first try then ANYONE can make it!!!). After merging 4 DDNP guides, I - who has no chemistry experience whatsoever, managed to synthesize DDNP on the first try. I tested the batch, and I confirmed the result myself. I even managed to create the first batch of DDNP with relatively impure picric acid. DDNP is more than 10 times as stable as AP and has more or less equal VOD (velocity of detonation). I even think that synthesizing DDNP was easier than manufacturing picric acid (which is considered to be perhaps the easiest secondary/booster to manufacture). In other words, the only reason you would not want to create DDNP as a primary is because you for some reason can't get access to the materials required.


D.

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#57470 - 07/24/11 11:18 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

While I am hesistant to comment on this topic, and I hope none here of the Norwegian members has lost a close one, I should say you are viewing the ONA from a wrong angle.
Someone who adheres towards the ONA philosophy can dismiss this action as unethical. The simple reason here is that ONA should be seen as a collective that acts as one. Persuading Myatt or Long would be fruitless and asking ONA-types about their opinions of this deed will result in the same answer you'll get from almost anyone here.


Every one considering him or herself a Niner subscribes to their own approach but agree on some fundamental core principles. None submit or is expected to submit to anything. As such, it is quite obvious that some might agree with certain acts while others disagree with them.

The assumption ONA-types are supposed to “X-Y-Z” is just a misrepresentation, a straw man to validate criticism which does not apply when this construct is not created first.

But that's a debate for another thread.

D.

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#57471 - 07/24/11 11:32 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Hmm, it is generally considered that AP is too weak to detonate ANFO. Most AQ handbooks like AP because it is explosive and it is very easy to make.

Now, if he was on the internet and did his research, he would easily find good recipes for Picric Acid. It is a very old and simple explosive. Not very safe, but it does work. DDNP was fist synthesize in 1858 and any organized person could easily make it. It is a primary explosive but in my research, a lot of home chemists screw it up. Again, simply being organized and following instructions will improve your success.

Was the above quote in his 2083 book?
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#57472 - 07/24/11 11:38 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Fist]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Was the above quote in his 2083 book?


Yes, included is a log going through all the preparations (in detail); network phase, armor phase, weapons phase and explosive phase, up to some hours before the execution of this plan.

D.

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#57473 - 07/24/11 11:49 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:

The assumption ONA-types are supposed to “X-Y-Z” is just a misrepresentation, a straw man to validate criticism which does not apply when this construct is not created first.


Indeed. He is quite obviously a Christian Conservative. He seems to have made quite a big deal about this - viewing himself as a Crusader/Christian Soldier. Hell, he seems to have had a big WOW persona - hardly a 9er. Unless of course we are back to ONA being whatever 'I' say it is!

Anyone of the C18 model would have targeted Muslims directly. And most Right Nationalists still hold this view. This guy is more like the sort we have in the US along the lines of David Koresh, Tim McVeigh, or several Xtian types who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors.

Honestly, I actually hope that this forces the Right in Europe to move away from the Christian Identity types. These people are truly crazy!
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#57474 - 07/24/11 12:04 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Fist]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think this is quite interesting.

 Quote:
An NS or racist/anti Jewish movement was completely out of the question, as they represented much of what I oppose. I came in contact with Serbian cultural conservatives through the internet. This initial contact would eventually result in my contact with several key individuals all over Europe and the forming of the group who would later establish the military order and tribunal, PCCTS, Knights Templar.

I remember they did a complete screening and background check to ensure I was of the desired calibre. Two of them had reservations against inviting me due to my young age but the leader of the group insisted on my candidature. According to one of them, they were considering several hundred individuals throughout Europe for a training course. I met with them for the first time in London and later on two occasions in Balticum. I had the privilege of meeting one of the greatest living war heroes of Europe at the time, a Serbian crusader and war hero who had killed many Muslims in battle. Due to EU persecution for alleged crimes against Muslims he was living at one point in Liberia.

I visited him in Monrovia once, just before the founding session in London, 2002. I was the youngest one there, 23 years old at the time. One of the key founders instructed the rest of the group about several topics related to the goal of the organisation. I believe I scribbled down more than 50 full pages of notes regarding all possible related topics. Much of these notes are forwarded in the book 2083. It was basically a detailed long term plan on how to seize power in Western Europe. I did not fully comprehend at the time how privileged I was to be in the company of some of the most brilliant political and military tacticians of Europe. Some of us were unfamiliar with each other beforehand so I guess we all took a high risk meeting face to face. There were only 5 people in London re-founding the order and tribunal (1 by proxy) but there were around 25-30 attending in Balticum during the two sessions, individuals from all over Europe; Germany, France, Sweden, the UK, Denmark, Balticum, Benelux, Spain, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Austria, Armenia, Lebanon and Russia. Electronic or telephonic communication was completely prohibited, before, during and after the meetings. On our last meeting it was emphasised clearly that we cut off contact indefinitely. Any type of contact with other cells was strictly prohibited.


This was not sessions were regular combat cells were created. It was more like a training course for pioneer cell commanders. We were not instructed to attack specific targets, quite the opposite. We were encouraged to rather use the information distributed to contribute to build and expand the so called ”cultural conservative anti-Jihad movement, either through spreading propaganda, provide funding for the creation of new groups through various forums or by recruiting other people directly. All individuals attending the sessions learned about PCCTS, the Knights Templar but they were not specifically instructed to represent that particular order and tribunal. Everyone was encouraged but at the end, it was their own decision how they decided to manifest their resistance. A special emphasis was put on the long term nature of the struggle (50-100 years).

Our task was to contribute to a long term approach and not to act prematurely. If there was a large scale attack the next 10 years it was said, we should avoid any immediate follow up attacks as it would negate the shock effect of the subsequent attacks. A large successful attack every 5-12 years was optimal depending on available forces.

This was not a stereotypical “right wing” meeting full of underprivileged racist skinheads with a short temper, but quite the opposite. Most of them were successful entrepreneurs, business or political leaders, some with families, most of them Christian conservatives but also some agnostics and even atheists. I remember it struck me how impressed I was regarding how they had set up the screening parameters (for accepting new candidates). They obviously wanted resourceful pragmatical individuals who were able to keep information away from their loved ones and who were not in any way flagged by their governments. Every one of them was supportive of a Judeo Christian Europe and did not have any reservations against cooperating with non-European Christians Hindu or Buddhist nationalists. I had or have a relatively close relationship with at least one of them, an Englishman, who became my mentor. He was the one who first described the “perfect knight” and had written the initial fundament for this compendium. I was asked, not only once but twice, by my mentor; let’s call him Richard, to write a second edition of his compendium about the new European Knighthood. As such, I spent several years to create an economic platform which would allow me to study and write a second edition.

And as of now, I have spent more than three years completing this second edition. Perhaps, someone out there will be able to contribute by creating a third edition one day.


D.

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#57475 - 07/24/11 12:20 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
nexion17 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 7
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
I see no way for an ONA-type Satanist to condemn such an act of barbarism,

You're correct, apparently, as Anton Long (whoever that now is, the original or mark 2) has mentioned the attacks in a recent post about terrorism.

I'll quote from it -
 Quote:
If some mundanes are culled or injured in some act by us or by someone else we quite simply do nor care in the way mundanes do (or pretend to do) as we do not indulge in the hypocrisy and the lies of the hubriati. Neither are we concerned with propaganda, with ‘political spin’. We are what we are – sinister, satanic: adepts who desire to Presence The Dark. We are what makes us ONA.

Hence, the only question we ask after such acts is do those culled or injured meet the criteria of mundaneness?, and if those culled or injured do, then we judge that act not according to some abstract moralistic criteria, but on whether we as sinister individuals judge it has Presenced The Dark or on whether we, as an individual or as individuals, have acquired or obtained something useful from it – materially, or in terms of, for example, pathei-mathos.

This, of course, is Satanic – although naturally it is a satanism too far, too evil, for the pretentious mundanes who deign, today and in their delusion, to describe themselves as ‘Satanists’.


It's taken from http://antonlong.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/into-the-abyss-morality-terror-and-the-ona/

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#57476 - 07/24/11 12:31 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: nexion17]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"This, of course, is Satanic – although naturally it is a Satanism too far, too evil, for the pretentious mundanes who deign, today and in their delusion, to describe themselves as ‘Satanists’."

You know what, fuck him.
This reminds me of the fight I had years ago with one of them years ago when whats his face was designing the tarot.

You don't make political points on dead kids.

If you don't have something to stand for, or see that some things are just wrong, then how can you judge if you are doing the "right thing" for the nexus or group or tribe or even for yourself.

Its not a matter of being too evil or too far, its a matter of will it add or hurt the "idea". All he did was hurt his agenda as Fist pointed out.

What he did was beyond wrong.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#57477 - 07/24/11 12:42 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Morgan]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
As far as I read this, I don't see him advocating the murder of children.

 Quote:
A mundane is anyone who is not one of us; anyone who does not belong to our family, our extended family, our kindred, our kollective. In brief – someone who does not live by our Code of Kindred Honour and who thus accepts the laws and the so-called ‘authority’ of nation-States. That is, mundanity does not depend on such social abstractions as ethnicity, wealth, social status, occupation, education, place of birth, nationality, or whatever.

As mentioned above, our law of honour does not apply to adult mundanes of sound body and mind, and thus such human beings are considered fair game, a resource; although should it be necessary – for example in the matter of individual culling – our honour demands that we give them a sporting chance by subjecting them to certain tests in order to verify their mundane character. Thus and importantly, the children of mundanes – those below the age of sixteen or so – are not considered mundanes per se.

That is, we accord such children – until they reach the age of choice, of maturity – a certain respect, which in practical terms means they are exempt from being considered fair game, a resource. This naturally excludes us from involvement with certain activities involving children and also means that individuals of certain proclivities, involving children, are regarded by us as dishonourable individuals who most certainly are not of our kind.

Children and the ONA



D.


Edited by Diavolo (07/24/11 12:44 PM)
Edit Reason: added quote

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#57478 - 07/24/11 12:44 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Morgan]
nexion17 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 7
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
You know what, fuck him.You don't make political points on dead kids.


I think the point Long was making was that for the ONA and like he says in that article there's

 Quote:
no morality – no judgement about what is right and what is wrong – but our own individual one, with that judgement born... from our own individual pathei-mathos, and the personal unique sinister weltanschauung that we develope from such practical experience, such reflexion, and such pathei-mathos.


It's this that he's saying is Satanic.

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#57479 - 07/24/11 01:24 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: nexion17]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Seriously, wtf. SO many moral high horses, are we running a stable?

This sort of shit happens all the time. People die all the time. But when it happens in certain geographical regions rather than others, it is somehow more important? It isn't.

Should I be emotionally overwhelmed right now? Weeping for the poor victims? Fuck that. Human life is objectively worthless, why should I care if a bunch of mundanes get wasted?

Maybe it truly is a Satanism too far for most.
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#57480 - 07/24/11 01:27 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
nexion17 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 7
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
As far as I read this, I don't see him advocating the murder of children.

True and I think it's worth adding that the ONA define children as those below the age of 14, although like it says in the article you quote from -

 Quote:
There is some flexibility in this age ... with some of our kind regarding it to be sixteen years, others fourteen, and some others eighteen.

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#57481 - 07/24/11 01:31 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: nexion17]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Again, from the Satanic stand point, we don't target or involve children into ANY of our activities. Children are neutral until the reach the age of emancipation in their culture.

From the NS stand point, 'we' don't target the Volk. Political assassinations are selective and rare. From this POV, yes, a PM or other political leader is a legitimate target - children (even teens) at a summer camp ARE NOT!

The simple fact is you can't explain crazy. Stop trying. Honestly, what group is claiming this guy as one of their own?
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#57482 - 07/24/11 01:54 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dan_Dread]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
If caring that kids are killed by madmen makes me somehow less of a Satanist, you can keep your Satanism, Dan. I don't need the approval of you or anyone else to know what I am. Neither do I need a crowd to tell me killing kids is wrong. Whether the horse is high or low, I'll ride around infanticide canyon. Negligent infanticide, as it occurs around warzones worldwide, is a tragedy, but it will go on so long as people field child soldiers or use them as shields. Deaths caused by famine, disease and natural disasters are unavoidable.

This was a low and cowardly act, and carried out against kids. If caring about that is wrong, I don't want to be right.
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"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#57483 - 07/24/11 02:05 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Fist]
nexion17 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 7
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Children are neutral until the reach the age of emancipation in their culture.

I'd be interested to know if anyone here knows if any of those killed at the youth camp in Norway were under 14.

Anyone?

If they were all 14 or over - or could reasonably be expected to be that age or over as condition of attending such a camp - then the ONA could claim they're mundanes, according to their criteria.

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#57484 - 07/24/11 02:06 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
People are being killed each day, en mass, and many of them are teenagers or younger. To remain internally consistent here you would seriously need to have the tears flowing 24/7 round the clock. Yet, nobody seems to care unless it happens to specific groups in specific places.

The media tells us what is a tragedy and what isn't, based on very arbitrary criteria.Cry for THESE children, but not these other ones. I would point out the killcount from american bombs and guns in iraq and Afghanistan dwarfs this on a large scale, but I see dissenting opinions are already being met with bans.


If you did in fact know any of these people in person, if any of them directly meant something to YOU, then my deepest condolences. Otherwise this is just a puppet show.
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#57485 - 07/24/11 02:07 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Should I be emotionally overwhelmed right now? Weeping for the poor victims? Fuck that. Human life is objectively worthless, why should I care if a bunch of mundanes get wasted?

I have to agree with you on this part.
But there is another thing called common decency. I have been brought up to show respect at certain moments.

I have noticed there are people like Woland here who don't take this very lightly and I give him credits for it.
Perhaps watching a bit your steps? It's not because I agree with you on this point that I think you should voice that opinion out loud in a place where some will more or less see it as an insult.
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#57487 - 07/24/11 02:19 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I'm sorry if I can't live up to your stereotype King and that I see no honorable tactic in shooting children.


I never typed you in any such regard, and certainly not with dual speakers (that's a pun of sorts, think about it). To Skaf, immediately prior, I said this: "I do not see how an advocate of ONA "praxis" could hold a view such as ours". If this is a question of hypocrisy or doublespeak, please let me know. I always took you to be the type dude (not unlike myself) who sometimes rejoins with points (solid though they may be) he does not subscribe to personally. My rejoinder was less to you than it was to those outspoken "Niners" who talk all day about the "practical Sinister".

So when I questioned your support (albeit rhetorical, as above) of the ONA paradigm, I was actually questioning the paradigm itself, and any who would throw their hat in that particular corner. I thought I made clear in my first thread post where I stand on this issue. If not, my apologies.

In any case, the points remain. It stands to be demonstrated how an ONA-type can dismiss such an action as unethical, anti-paradigmatic, or whatever.

JK

p.s. read what I write, in its totality, before jumping the gun


Firstly, we are Satanists, nothing media presents has protection from our inquisitions. We on 600 can only analyse (separately or together) the information on this Olso shit and ensue a dialectic of hypothesis elimination that may emerge quite a different realisation to the general public opinion, on matters discussed here on this thread or otherwise.

@ Jason. I always assumed the stance that The Order of Nine Angles is rife with reverse psychology. At least for me it is, and this is how I apply it; cultivation of esoteric, transgressive thought process; at least this is how I've analysed it. Beneath the neologisms and rhetoric would "appear" to be the essence of psychopathy, and although oftentimes seen as related, ONA is against cultivating unhealthy Narcissism, by deconstructing detrimental ideas in the ego belief system, this much is evident. Holding radical views of a target ethos we can use those images against the target ethos. Not misrepresentation or simple inversion, but to use the images and ethos, literally, against itself.

By doing this we more than suggest the inclination to think otherwise.

The Oslo murderer? Maybe he had help, or maybe not. Pressure from within his own government circle? Regardless, the right wing will be wrongly targeted for blame; a Hitler-esque Nazi poster boy for the agenda behind multiculturalism/democracy. I'm not scoring points I'm just predicting the disgusting outcomes.

National Socialist code does not advocate killing youth; such is against its ideology, philosophy; against its code of honour and values which is the core infrastructure of the movement. Facts don't persuade, feelings do, and we all know that what has happened will be used for political malfeasance. However, the fact remains that the Oslo murders were the result of a psychopaths violent impulses, of one person, a person who radicalised himself, and if he had pressure from wherever, he was still a Judeo-Christian fundamentalist, a pro-Zionist, not a National Socialist with Indo-European values, nor a man who can represent anything political except more cause for malfeasance.

Regardless as to whether the despicable conclusion to the events was entirely down to his own influence, we must concede to look deeper into the images presented to us by media than the general public will bother to do. This much is clear. The psychology of dangerous people is never conveyed properly in media, its always delivered as dramatic and focuses on the disastrous conclusions instead of the characteristic signs.

I conjecture that more than collateral damage will be dealt to National Socialist credibility, and so, derogatory accusations abounds for anyone whom stands by indigenous European values. The media will no doubt present the malevolent work of a psychopath to devalue right wing groups which are already full of underprivileged young men, hence, Indo-European values being under devaluation through impositioning blame, through a web of negative connotations. This would serve to a malfeasant process of democracy = multiculturalism of Europe, which means border control issues.

p.s We know, really, that none of us are spiting one another, emotions run high on these matters and genuine friends may be sensitive to perceived slights, it does not mean the other person is insinuating anything, its simply a window of opportunity for us to be aggressive and accuse, to vent. I'm sure that said members are not really with animosity toward one another, but, the Oslo events are more than emotive, causing sensitivity, friction, evidently, even between comrades.

I feel rage without direction instead of compassion, this is not anything I can change; more than usual, of that I am not sure, admittedly, but, we can direct whatever emotion to do what Satanists do, and work together, knowing better than to cast malevolence to our own. I value that others here are with cause against what has caused me rage. We are Satanists and we are discussing something sensitive. Lets not forget who we are in relation to one another and why we come here.

I apologise if my post is a little behind how the thread has moved on, as I started this morning and had to go out, came back in the evening and resumed. I'm still going over the 2083 writings.


Edited by Hegesias (07/24/11 02:41 PM)
Edit Reason: edit
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#57488 - 07/24/11 02:20 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dan_Dread]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I have no intention of banning you. Nor have I personally banned anyone over this.

You say I should cry around the clock because kids die around the world. I shouldn't care because my kids weren't there, or whatever. They were my countrymen and they were kids and didn't deserve to be slaughtered.

I don't want a circlejerk or compassion outbursts. I'm fine. My family are fine. You don't have to cry over the kids who died. You didn't know them. But it happened here. It happened to us, as a country, and it happened in a cowardly, despicable way for which there is no defense.

As for Breivik, I hope he lives to be a hundred. I will do my level best to make sure he suffers every single damn day. Death's too good for people who slaughter kids. I want to keep my kids safe, and believe me, I will make sure of it.
_________________________
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#57490 - 07/24/11 02:25 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well Skaf, I like you, I respect you, and I can see you are upset over this. I've said my bit and will now excuse myself from this discussion.
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#57492 - 07/24/11 02:39 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dan_Dread]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I will concede this, my friend: were we in a warzone where the choice was shooting armed kids or watching you get shot, the kids would get shot. Legitimate targets will be shot. Somali rebels would use pregnant women as shields.

We will always defend those closest to us.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#57493 - 07/24/11 02:42 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
Ok, apart from emotionaly responding to this tragedy, there's something else to discuss here.

And that is rational response. What could be done to prevent those kind of tragedies from happening?

Individual terrorism is notoriously hard to prevent. If it's some kind of strata, like extremist muslims, cops can infiltrate their groups and have advance info on their plots. With loners like this, there's really not much police can do. The only measure that may help is gun control, but it has it's own drawbacks.

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#57494 - 07/24/11 03:32 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread


The media tells us what is a tragedy and what isn't, based on very arbitrary criteria.Cry for THESE children, but not these other ones. I would point out the killcount from american bombs and guns in iraq and Afghanistan dwarfs this on a large scale, but I see dissenting opinions are already being met with bans.


In order to clarify; certain individuals has been given a short time-out due to moronity and cluelessness in general.

Dissenting opinions I can take, no problem.
Stupid fucks? Well; let me say that my tolerance is kinda low for the moment.

What I believe is lacking from the emotional frame that calls itself Dan_Dread, as well as with several other posters, is the sense of "clan".
I also believe that, especially in the case of the Dread-Frame, it has to do with that he deep down feels utterly alone, and that this loneliness has built up considerable emotional frustration, which he proudly projects whilst snarling.

I wholeheartedly believe that human beings benefits from being rooted, and I am also intensely aware how important my land (not nation/state) is to my identity and well-being.
My "line" has populated this corner of the earth long before any trash fled over the pond, and this makes me BELONG, big-time.

I exist within my land.
I exist within my clan.
I am a Northerner.

I will protect my kin, and my clan.
I do not need to know people in order to avenge or mourn them.
They belong to my clan, and that is enough.


I am utterly unimpressed by the pseudo-cynical staging displayed by internet tough-shite, who claims to have written the textbook on all things Satanic.

Satanism, as defined by me, is built on certain core values:

Individualism, Nobility, Care, Evolution, Introspection.

I tire when I am faced with pathetic displays of singularity.
When people construct their persona in such a manner that they miss the obvious, time and time again.

But then; what can one expect from people who are crippled by loneliness?


_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#57496 - 07/24/11 03:48 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I also believe that, especially in the case of the Dread-Frame, it has to do with that he deep down feels utterly alone, and that this loneliness has built up considerable emotional frustration, which he proudly projects whilst snarling.

LOL seriously wtf.

You can keep your amateur, and way the fuck off base, psychological projections. I am anything but alone, and I value mine profoundly, and have a bond with them that I don't even could be understood by those that would project this bond into such an impersonal frame of reference as outlined here.
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#57497 - 07/24/11 03:57 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
nexion17 Offline
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Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 7
 Originally Posted By: Woland
certain individuals has been given a short time-out due to moronity and cluelessness in general.

Is that why you - or someone - banned the ONA's SinisterMoon, because you or someone adjudged her to be, in your words, "moronic and clueless" because she ventured a view on this issue you didn't personally agree with?

Was her crime in your - or someone's - judgment that she ventured to suggest something similar to what Dan Dread suggested later in the thread when he wrote "The media tells us what is a tragedy and what isn't, based on very arbitrary criteria.Cry for THESE children, but not these other ones..."

Just asking.

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#57499 - 07/24/11 04:15 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: nexion17]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Today some 22.000 children will die and we don't care about them because they are not our people. Which is understandable. But to many here the same is true about what happened in Oslo. They are not their people, yet, it seems they must care.

I see none lose respect and consider the shooting a humorous affair but I also see little respect being returned and a lack of emotional outburst almost being regarded as treason. I know emotions run high and this isn't the first time it happens. 911 triggered an identical scenario.

But little is said now which hasn't been said always and each time without a problem.

Satanism remains Satanism even when the going gets rough.

D.

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#57501 - 07/24/11 04:41 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Seriously, wtf. SO many moral high horses, are we running a stable?

This sort of shit happens all the time. People die all the time. But when it happens in certain geographical regions rather than others, it is somehow more important? It isn't.

Should I be emotionally overwhelmed right now? Weeping for the poor victims? Fuck that. Human life is objectively worthless, why should I care if a bunch of mundanes get wasted?

Maybe it truly is a Satanism too far for most.


I am of the firm belief that the closer an event is to you the more emotionally involved you get. In this case it was an attack on a people that is also, to a large degree, my people. If something happens in Africa I am likely to care less because of the lack of social and cultural bonds to that people.

The closer it is to home the more it hurts. And home stretches from your self to your family, friends, local community, people etc. However independent we want to be it cant be denied that almost all of us would react more strong to something negative hitting close to home rather than something happening to people we never even came close to.

I do not live without morals but I have destroyed and then rebuilt my moral view in the way I see fit. If there is no certain actions to value and actions to despise nothing would mean anything. And even if things are worthless or not in the big picture it is of utter importance to infuse a personal desire in life and to life.

When 9/11 happened it was shocking to me. It wasnt expected and despite the distance in miles it affected a country that was way closer to mine in many ways compared to any country in the middle east. When 7/7 hit it was even more close to home and now it has happened in my neck of the woods twice in 6 months (luckily the first one was a failure). Of course you get emotionally involved. Most healthy humans, concerned with the society they live in, would.

Because I know that even if I was 100% safe at all times I would rather live in a safe society rather than one embossed with violence and terror.

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#57502 - 07/24/11 04:50 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
nexion17 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 7
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Satanism remains satanism even when the going gets rough.

I guess it depends on how you define Satanism. Soft or hard. Mundane or sinister. According to the the ONA -

 Quote:
” It is of fundamental importance – to evolution both individual and otherwise – that what is Dark, Sinister or Satanic is made real in a practical way, over and over again. That is, that what is dangerous, awesome, numinous, tragic, deadly, terrible, terrifying and beyond the power of ordinary mortals, laws or governments to control is made manifest. In effect, non-Initiates (and even Initiates) need constantly reminding that such things still exist; they need constantly to be brought ‘face-to-face’, and touched, with what is, or appears to be, inexplicable, uncontrollable, powerful and ‘evil’. They need reminding of their own mortality – of the unforeseen, inexplicable “powers of Fate”, of the powerful force of “Nature”.

If this means killing, wars, suffering, sacrifice, terror, disease, tragedy and disruption, then such things must be – for it is one of the duties of a Satanic Initiate to so Presence The Dark, and prepare the way for, or initiate, the change and evolution which always result from such things. Such things as these must be, and always will be, because the majority of people are or will remain, inert and sub-human unless changed. The majority is – and always will be until it evolves to become something else – raw material to be used, moulded, cut-away and shaped to create what must be. There is no such thing as an innocent person because everyone who exists is part of the whole, the change, the evolution, the presencing of life itself, which is beyond them, and their life only has meaning through the change, development and evolution of life. Their importance is what they can become, or what can be achieved through their death. their tragedy, their living – their importance does not lie in their individual happiness or their individual desires or whatever.” ONA - To Presence The Dark


Now if Satan isn't evil, who or what is?

If these deeds in Norway are evil, then just what is Satan and Satanism if the 'satanists' here are calling those deeds 'bad' and un-satanic?

Is Satan some fluffy bunny?

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#57504 - 07/24/11 05:45 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: nexion17]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Out of respect for the conflicts that have arisen as a result of this thread, I will lock it down for the time being. It will be re-opened when heads are cooler, words less inflammatory and the events properly processed. I ask respectfully that we don't make any further threads on this event until that time. Any objections to this locking can be PM'ed to me, and I will deal with them and, if necessary or requested, pass them on to the rest of the moderating team.

Thank you for your understanding.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#57530 - 07/25/11 10:08 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
This thread has been unlocked with the condition that it not descend into trolling, insulting or otherwise ignorant or unnecessarily inflammatory remarks.

If anyone feels as though they can't adhere to these guidelines, kindly stay the fuck out of this thread or your post(s) will be deleted.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#57534 - 07/25/11 11:04 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Nemesis]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
At risk of being unpopular, this is ridiculous. Is it a 'tragedy' that those children were killed unnecessarily? Yes. I regard the targeting of Children as dishonourable. Compared to the huge swathe of deaths, you, me, the guy down the road, each and every one of us will cause today just by living our life however this act was barely a dent. Because it was 'just down the road' to some of my friends and family doesn't make it any better or worse. It's just another product of the System we all support every single day just by living without attempting to bring it down.

This isn't a cheap political point it's just the way I see it. I don't feel anything for those kids, because if I did I'd have to be 'feeling like shit' every single waking second of every single day for the things that I do. (i.e. living in and supporting through action a system that will have killed 30 people in the time it took you to read this response). I just don't have the time for that kind of tear shedding.

The people who died have my sympathy, as do their families, but no more sympathy than anyone else that kicked it today through direct or indirect murder.

MF.

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#57536 - 07/25/11 11:56 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: MindFux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Compared to the huge swathe of deaths, you, me, the guy down the road, each and every one of us will cause today just by living our life however this act was barely a dent.


Okay, I'll bite: how many deaths will I cause today and just how exactly am I causing them? Secondly, can you honestly say that "just by living our lives" we are intentionally causing these deaths?

What makes this incident "worse" than all the other deaths that occur by way of famine, disease, conflict is that these kids were targeted specifically. It's like the difference between First Degree Murder and Involuntary Manslaughter. Both are illegal and will get you into some sort of trouble (both are "bad") but one is viewed as beingmore serious (worse). The difference is found in the intent.

Does this mean that I am expecting you to shed tears for those killed? Absolutely not; I certainly didn't. However I do think it is a fucked up situation and I see a big difference between this incident and the deaths that occur every day.

In typing that last line, a thought occured to me: perhaps the other deaths are so easily ignored precisely because they do happen every day. Maybe if mass shootings like this happened every single day (in the developed countries) people would start viewing it as SSDD as well.

Edit: People expect the deaths of many people in the poor countries where famine, disease and conflict are an every day reality. People expect shootings at inner city schools where gangs are rampant. But when these things start happening in places where "it can't happen here" (Oslo, Littleton) there is the shock factor; people stop feeling safe and become hysterical. It hits closer to home and therefore has a bigger effect on people.


Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (07/25/11 12:07 PM)
Edit Reason: Had more to say
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No gods. No masters.

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#57537 - 07/25/11 11:58 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Remember the Beslan massacre 6? Almost 200 children and not one tear shed.

We humans are funny creatures.

D.

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#57538 - 07/25/11 12:02 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Oh I'm pretty sure more than a few tears were shed. The death toll was over 300 and I'm sure at least one of those people had someone to miss them and grieve their death.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#57539 - 07/25/11 12:09 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I wasn't really talking about their tears 6, I was talking about ours.

D.

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#57540 - 07/25/11 12:11 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Well, I personally didn't shed any tears over either incident. But both ere certainly fucked up and I can't/wont condone either one.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#57541 - 07/25/11 12:16 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:

Okay, I'll bite: how many deaths will I cause today and just how exactly am I causing them? Secondly, can you honestly say that "just by living our lives" we are intentionally causing these deaths?


Of course you are. We have a choice whether or not to support the system. I know that if I go to a knife fight with a friend and he pulls a knife out and cuts someone's throat that person will die. Sure I may not have done it, sure I may not have been able to stop him, and sure I may have been a 'passenger' but in the eyes of our own legal system I'm an accessory to the crime and guilty by association. Sure that legal system is fucked but it's based on the same moral system that is resulting in the outcry over Captain Norway's actions.

We're actually worse than that. We hand the system the knife and then applaud the action. When our system takes the natural resources from mineral rich countries to pay for our party while they starve and we withhold medical aid that could easily be rendered for the sake of profitability (which is ironic considering how dependent our economy is on their raw materials which we take to repay debt that we forced on them in the first place, but I digress), when it bombs countries for unilateral access to previously hostile markets, and we support it and applaud it through absence of responsibility, inaction and consent then we're all responsible. You can duck that responsibility or not. That's up to the individual but it doesn't make it any less true.

 Quote:
What makes this incident "worse" than all the other deaths that occur by way of famine, disease, conflict is that these kids were targeted specifically. It's like the difference between First Degree Murder and Involuntary Manslaughter. Both are illegal and will get you into some sort of trouble (both are "bad") but one is viewed as beingmore serious (worse). The difference is found in the intent.


If you want to get into the legalities of it if I take a negligent action which I know will likely result in the deaths of individuals then I'm guilty of Negligent Homicide, which depending on the state and the circumstances can carry the same penalties as 1st degree murder. Intent (guilty mind) is required for 'murder' by the definition of the state, yes, however knowingly partaking in something that you know will naturally kill people can be classed as such intent in any event and even if you say, "well it wasn't intentional" but it's obvious that death could result from an action you're negligent. The point is our legal system only judges people who step over the line of the state - not the state itself when it transgresses its own systems of social control. You can either take responsibility for that, given that's what your tacitly supporting, or not.

 Quote:
Does this mean that I am expecting you to shed tears for those killed? Absolutely not; I certainly didn't. However I do think it is a fucked up situation and I see a big difference between this incident and the deaths that occur every day.


I'm yet to hear a reason why though, beyond, "the deaths of people that are caused directly by another matter more to me, or at least the same amount as the deaths I cause indirectly every single day".

 Quote:
In typing that last line, a thought occured to me: perhaps the other deaths are so easily ignored precisely because they do happen every day. Maybe if mass shootings like this happened every single day (in the developed countries) people would start viewing it as SSDD as well.


QED. What do you think? Car accidents happen every single day in the thousands. 18,460 murders in the US last year - how many people can genuinely say they give a shit? That's as many deaths as captain Oslo pulled off every 2 days. Where's the public outcry and the OMG how awful? Nowhere because it's just the way it is.

MF


Edited by MindFux (07/25/11 12:20 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#57542 - 07/25/11 12:42 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: MindFux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Of course you are. We have a choice whether or not to support the system. I know that if I go to a knife fight with a friend and he pulls a knife out and cuts someone's throat that person will die. Sure I may not have done it, sure I may not have been able to stop him, and sure I may have been a 'passenger' but in the eyes of our own legal system I'm an accessory to the crime and guilty by association. Sure that legal system is fucked but it's based on the same moral system that is resulting in the outcry over Captain Norway's actions.


None of that explains how I am intentionally causing countless deaths everyday just by living my life.

 Quote:
...You can duck that responsibility or not. That's up to the individual but it doesn't make it any less true.


There's no responsibility to be ducked because I am not responsible for it. Watch that "we" talk because I have no part in any of what you described.

 Quote:
If you want to get into the legalities of it if I take a negligent action which I know will likely result in the deaths of individuals then I'm guilty of Negligent Homicide, which depending on the state and the circumstances can carry the same penalties as 1st degree murder. Intent (guilty mind) is required for 'murder' by the definition of the state, yes, however knowingly partaking in something that you know will naturally kill people can be classed as such intent in any event and even if you say, "well it wasn't intentional" but it's obvious that death could result from an action you're negligent. The point is our legal system only judges people who step over the line of the state - not the state itself when it transgresses its own systems of social control. You can either take responsibility for that, given that's what your tacitly supporting, or not.


I was using it as an example. You could easily swap NH out for involuntary manslaughter and my point and the comparison would remain the same.

 Quote:
I'm yet to hear a reason why though, beyond, "the deaths of people that are caused directly by another matter more to me, or at least the same amount as the deaths I cause indirectly every single day".


I've already laid out my reasoning throughout that entire post. You do not have to agree or even accept it. That's just where I am coming from on this matter.

 Quote:
QED. What do you think? Car accidents happen every single day in the thousands. 18,460 murders in the US last year - how many people can genuinely say they give a shit? That's as many deaths as captain Oslo pulled off every 2 days. Where's the public outcry and the OMG how awful? Nowhere because it's just the way it is.


Apples and oranges. The deaths you describe are spread out all over the country and the murders specifically are committed by different people. In any case, almost every individual murder receives some public outcry - some more than others. And as far as car wrecks are concerned, well, that's worlds apart from the methodical execution of people.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#57543 - 07/25/11 01:07 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I wasn't really talking about their tears 6, I was talking about ours.


Excellent point. The USA sends drones to bomb schools in the Middle East, but who cares? A larger point could be made regarding media coverage, and how it affects our particular approaches to events such as this.

Me personally, I didn't give a rats shit about 9/11, even though I felt the earth shake when AA77 hit the Pentagon. I've said it before, I'll say it again, more people died in 2001 from Influenza than from Al Quaida. Where's our "War on the Flu"?

However, I do draw a line at The Next. And a dude that targets the largest group of children in his reach is, to me, the most despicable piece of garbage imaginable. If he had a point to make, he should've targeted government officials. Or business people. Children are not a threat to anyone except those who fear their own mortality.

JK
_________________________



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#57545 - 07/25/11 01:29 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I really don't see any "tear shedding" going on here, and it's not like we're weeping uncontrollably with a wet keyboard and trembling fingers. Nobody here appears to be giving undue attention to the matter, and there seems to be an urge to criticize over-sentimentalism where none exists.

Plain and simple, we feel sympathy most for those within our own "sphere of consciousness", that is, our immediate friends, family, and neighbors. Modern media can bring all the misfortunes of the world to our doorstep, but always at a slightly superficial level, since it is unnatural for humans to feel a deeper sympathy for such large numbers of people outside of their own sphere of consciousness. This isn't inherently right or wrong, it just is. Whether or not a person empathizes with the victims of a foreign atrocity is an entirely personal and emotional matter-- no amount of logic or dialogue is going to make much of a difference.

Yes, there are worse atrocities going on. Yes, we live in a tyrannical capitalist empire built on greed and bloodshed and paid for by our own tax dollars. But that's still not going to stop me from feeling disgusted when I hear that some random nutcase shot dozens of kids. (and if you want to discuss other injustices, then just make a thread about it instead of complaining in this one.)

Nobody here is trying to say that this particular incident is "better" or "worse" than all the other problems of the world. This is a recent publicized event, and therefore closer to our sphere of consciousness, so naturally we are inclined to talk about it. Cause and effect. Action and reaction. It's the whole reason we're posting in this thread in the first place.


Edited by The Zebu (07/25/11 01:32 PM)
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#57546 - 07/25/11 01:31 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The media has a large effect on our compassion or emotional outrage. Just look at the natural disasters and see the disproportion between our affection and desire to financially help. The 2004 tsunami or the 2011 anyone? And compared to the 2004, one can't deny the effects in Japan are more devastating.

And of course, being the humans we are, it is bon ton to express our emotional affection in public. Often almost leading to a competition of being the most outraged. It's showing how really human we are, the right kind.

But truly, hardly anyone cares if it isn't close enough. Pretty soon it is business as usual and problems like what sweater to buy next or which songs to download to their iPod get overhand.

This civilization is going nowhere, this type of humanity is going nowhere and that's why I say, bring it all down. But hey, that objectionable, our society has made so much progress, we're really going somewhere and soon, all our problems will be solved, something will be invented or developed that makes everything all right. Sure, in a civilization where more a year is spent on perfume than on cancer research, where more is spent on beauty and anti-aging products than research at any other level, we are sure evolving in the right direction.

It doesn't matter if you rot from the inside as long as the outside looks pretty.

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#57550 - 07/25/11 02:26 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:
This civilization is going nowhere, this type of humanity is going nowhere and that's why I say, bring it all down.


That pretty much sums it all up in a neat sentence.

 Quote:

None of that explains how I am intentionally causing countless deaths everyday just by living my life.


It depends how you define intention. If you mean you are willfully propagating a system that you know will result in unnecessary death and doing nothing about it - then you are intentionally killing people (albeit indirectly). If you mean walking up to them and killing them with your own hand because you want to, then no, what you're doing is not intentional. Equivocation about the term 'intentional' aside, your life actions, my life actions, everyone's life actions by the consumption of gasoline, plastics, steel, oil, natural gas makes us all responsible for that death, irrespective of the definition of intentionality you want to hang your hat on. Defining intentional as 'willful' and using that as a sidestep may be satisfactory to you, and that's fine by me too, but I find it somewhat specious for my own purposes - which is up to me of course, lol.

Naturally you can come at the matter however you wish, hence the statement, "It's up to the individual" as to whether or not they accept that responsibility, but responsible most are, all the same.

With regards to the murder rate, my point wasn't that it was the 'same thing' but rather that the definition of a 'tragedy' in the prevalent social discourse of our age seems to be one mass act of death, rather than a system which is creating it, and has been creating it for generations which somehow has convinced those inside it that the line, "I didn't mean to" somehow cuts it as a way out.

MF


Edited by MindFux (07/25/11 02:32 PM)
Edit Reason: cleaning up

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#57552 - 07/25/11 03:21 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: MindFux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
If you mean you are willfully propagating a system that you know will result in unnecessary death and doing nothing about it - then you are intentionally killing people (albeit indirectly).


I exist within the system I was born into, it keeps me alive. It's not that I am "willfully propogating" anything; I do what I need to survive.

 Quote:
Equivocation about the term 'intentional' aside, your life actions, my life actions, everyone's life actions by the consumption of gasoline, plastics, steel, oil, natural gas makes us all responsible for that death, irrespective of the definition of intentionality you want to hang your hat on.


That sounds a lot like the argument "if you smoke weed, you support terrorism". I don't buy that one either.

 Quote:
With regards to the murder rate, my point wasn't that it was the 'same thing' but rather that the definition of a 'tragedy' in the prevalent social discourse of our age seems to be one mass act of death...


Right, and I agreed with you. A mass death is seen as a tragedy to a larger group of people than an individual death is.
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#57553 - 07/25/11 03:56 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:

That sounds a lot like the argument "if you smoke weed, you support terrorism". I don't buy that one either.


The rest of your post is all fair comment and how you want to live, and that's fine. Just to clarify, it's nothing like that argument. The concept that drugs fund terrorism is only marginally true, the fact your tax dollars funds mass murder and your employment amounts to slavery, and the system we're all forced to support provides us only with the choice between taking a subservient role in the workplace or starvation are unavoidable facts. How comfortable an individual is with that situation is down to the individual.

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#57554 - 07/25/11 04:04 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Empire of Dread Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany
Let me say this first, this guy is a piece of shit and I think his whole ideals are as fucked up and insane as it gets.

But im wondering how he managed to get the whole world to look at him. He invaded the minds, thoughts and emotions of a lot of people. His work is out there now, and it seems people and the media cant get enough of it.

The media coverage doesnt stop and even while driving on the tube today, I saw his face everywhere. And what is quite unconventionell is that you can access his book and video even from links at our mainstream media, which is normally not the case here in Germany, as stuff would usually be blocked or links removed. It is even illegal to access informations about building bombs. And yet, the links are still there.

Im not saying that there is a hidden agenda, but somehow something is different with this case, and it stinks big time.
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#57556 - 07/25/11 04:56 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Empire of Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
One can assume his ideals are insane and fucked up but, on the other hand, looking at the evolution in Europe, one can wonder how perfect these ideals are.

How great is multiculturalism when it practically implies that the native population has to adapt towards the immigrants? How great is tolerance when it practically implies only that which is approved is tolerated? How great is freedom of opinion when it implies that if you ask the wrong questions, you'll be marginalized and demonized?

How much progress is needed before it evolves into regress?

D.

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#57557 - 07/25/11 05:09 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
In terms of this event I think that this is just a wake up call that despite many people would lke to have yuou believe terrorism comes in many forms not just Islamic, a concept which most Americans are still too dumb to realize...

To me this is a complete rebuttal of the idea that only "leftist islamic socialists" etc. use violence as some sort of political strategy. I await the idiot right wing spin doctors attempts to try and fortify there position that only people who disagree with their ideas is a threat

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#57558 - 07/25/11 05:42 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: MindFux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Fair enough, I retract my comparison.

However for the sake of argument I will say that I have not once filed my taxes. Not that it matters, the government just takes the money out of our paychecks anyway. Unless you work "under the table".

But even in the instance of the money being taken (read: stolen) out of our paychecks it is not as if I or others can be blamed for what the money goes to. And aside from the aforementioned "under the table" work there is no way to stop the government from taking money out of our paychecks anyways.

So even if our tax dollars being used by the government to kill people makes us somewhat culpable, it is only minimally so and certainly not enough to fill me with any feelings of guilt.
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No gods. No masters.

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#57560 - 07/25/11 06:17 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
It's not about feelings of guilt. The 'system' is allowed to function the way that it does because of the implied consent of us all. Being born into it and thus not being able to single handily rock its world doesn't remove responsibility for the actions that the 'system' partakes of in your name, with your consent through inaction. To some, the recognition of responsibility for that situation drives action, for others it does not. For some the feeling of being enslaved drives action, for others it does not. As always and with all things it is up to the individual. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' choice, just the choice an individual has to make for themselves, with the resultant implications for them.

MF.

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#57561 - 07/25/11 07:25 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Multiculturalism? What's that? Oh, oppressive philistinism? That doesn't constitute a culture though, I must be wrong.

Take an artists paint palette. For a lack of aesthetic appreciation, mix all the colours together until its all the same beige brown, then use that palette to paint a picture of society. A colourful name for something else.
_________________________


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#57568 - 07/26/11 12:19 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Goliath Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 93
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
I am of the firm belief that the closer an event is to you the more emotionally involved you get.


I think this is true, and I think that the killings in Norway, the media coverage thereof, and the discussion these killings have engendered here underline a fairly simple fact about human psychology.

In his book On Killing, Dave Grossman discusses the factors that enable soldiers to kill in battle. Killing is not easy for most people--even in battle, where their lives depend on their willingness and ability to kill. This problem became especially acute during the World Wars, when most soldiers on both sides were essentially civilians in uniform. Before these men could kill, they needed to be enabled--by social sanction, by the demands of authority figures like officers, by group absolution (and the diffusion of responsibility that being part of a group provides). But one of the most important factors that Grossman identifies is simply: distance. The farther away you are from someone--the harder it is to see their faces, and the fainter their cries of fear and pain--the easier they will be to kill.

This distance is sometimes physical. It's much easier to bomb people from the air than it is to stab them at close quarters. And it's much easier to stab or shoot someone in the back than it is to do it to their faces. Physical distance can also be provided by mechanical means--by the operation of a crew-served weapon, for example. Or by the remote operation of a drone, which is rather like playing a video game.

But psychological distance is just as important, if not more important, than physical distance. This psychological distance can be increased by many factors: racial differences, ethnic differences, class diference, ideological differences, and moral difference. It's much easier to kill someone if their skin is a different colour, if their facial features are different, if they speak a different language and wear different clothing, and if we're convinced that they're somehow bad people. The more I learn about Breivik's motives, the clearer it becomes just how much psychological distance he had put between himself and his fellow Norwegians.

So the greater the distance, the less the distress people feel when they kill, or even when they see someone killed. And the reverse is also true: the lesser the distance, the greater the distress. The more we identify with someone else, the more likely we are to feel their pain. And the closer they are, the more intensely we feel it. Charities understand this: thats why they show people pictures of starving children on television--to bring their suffering right into our living rooms.

It's true that, objectively speaking, there is really no diference between the murders in Oslo and similar murders that go on in other parts of the world every day. Seventy-six deaths would pass practically unnoticed in the Congo, which for years has been the scene of what some people have called "Africa's First World War". But an objective viewpoint does not come naturally to most people. An objective viewpoint is the view from nowhere--and everyone views the world from somewhere. In fact, I would argue that most people who think they are viewing these things "objectively" are really just viewing them from a greater psychological and emotional distance than others. Nothing matters if it's far enough away.

The Western media, by contrast, has been devoting a great deal of attention to these killings because they know that Western people are closer to the victims of this massacre than they are to victims of similar massacres elsewhere--culturally, psychologically, ethnically, even physically in some cases. They've calculated that this incident will draw viewers, because to people in the West, the Norwegians are "us," while the Congolese (for example) are "them." They're concentrating on Norway for the same reason they concentrate on Missing White Women, instead of car accidents or shootings in the ghetto. And we only have to review this thread, and the strong reactions of some people therein, to see that they've calculated correctly.

What's more, I'm not convinced that there's anything inconsistent or hypocritical about either a strong reaction to this tragedy, or the absence of such a strong reaction. This is just the way we're wired as human beings: to care about those who are close, and to not care about those who are distant. Some people feel close to those who were killed in Norway, and others don't. And there's very little sense in demanding that people should feel differently, either way. You're certainly not going to change their minds by arguing with them over the internet.

Breaking your heart over everyone who dies would be just as unnatural as being unmoved by the deaths of your nearest and dearest. Let people feel their feelings--or not feel them, as the case may be. Whether or not they should feel differently is a topic for another time. But always be aware that other people are aware of these psychological facts, and will seek to exploit either your emotional involvement or your indifference for their own purposes and their own gain.


Edited by Goliath (07/26/11 12:20 AM)
_________________________
An illusion--with intelligence! A malignant vision, with a will of pure evil!

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#57569 - 07/26/11 07:32 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Goliath]
nexion17 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 7
Just one thought on the shootings (not the bombing).

Since it now appears that most of those killed or injured were teenagers or older, then had some of those youngsters at the youth camp been armed - as for example the Hitler Youth often were - and had they been trained in the use of firearms (again as the Hitler Youth were) and had those youths possessed a more fighting spirit (been tough, as the HY and the Bund Deutscher Mädel in der Hitler-Jugend were taught to be) then it might have been the case that the attacker would have been shot dead before he had the chance to kill many people.

Thus, the tragedy would have been much less.

If this reasoning is sound, then instead of people - as they are now - talking about stricter 'gun controls', they should be talking about making weapons and weapon training more readily available and allowing people to carry firearms or lethal weapons in public, as most people did, for centuries, before modern governments decided they wanted more controls, more restrictions, as governments always seem to.

Had the killer been shot dead in such a way, it would perhaps have been natural justice and might even have served as a better deterrent than a trial and imprisonment.


Edited by nexion17 (07/26/11 07:34 AM)

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#57570 - 07/26/11 08:30 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: nexion17]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



This raises an interesting point.

A few years ago a guy named Martin Bryant went berserk and shot a whole lot of people in Port Arthur, Tasmania.

That was a shock to a lot of people here and it immediately raised a debate regarding gun ownership and making weapons more available or less available to people.

The outcome of that debate was to remove guns, to reduce and get rid of them through buy-back schemes and legislation etc.

That approach seems to have worked up to this point, as we have not had another incident like that again.

I know the U.S constitutionally protects the rights of its citizens to bear arms and I have nothing against that, as that seems to be the consensus; and there are other countries who have a similar sort of ethos as well I think.

In Australia's case, this reduction of weapons appears to have worked. I am not sure what Norway's culture is like, but from what I understand they want to introduce even more democracy over there as a result of this tragedy, which may just work for them.

Some info on Bryant below for interested members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant


Edited by MatthewJ1 (07/26/11 08:37 AM)

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#57571 - 07/26/11 09:41 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: ]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Severe gun control does not make guns harder to obtain. There are black markets everywhere and if people desire them, they can get them. Gun control only affects the price range on the black market.

I live in a country with rather strict gun control laws but at the same time I live in a country where about everything is available, ranging from hand-weapons to automatics like AK-74s.

In Europe, the idea gun control solves anything is a delusion.


The main problem on that island, and to his advantage, is the "flight" reflex. Logically one guy with two weapons can't win against 500, even when having no firearms, but human nature takes over and instead of facing the danger and doing the sacrifice, it's each on his own. Completely understandable but logically the worst reaction possible.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (07/26/11 09:46 AM)

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#57572 - 07/26/11 09:53 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Goliath]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: Goliath
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
I am of the firm belief that the closer an event is to you the more emotionally involved you get.


I think this is true, and I think that the killings in Norway, the media coverage thereof, and the discussion these killings have engendered here underline a fairly simple fact about human psychology.

In his book On Killing, Dave Grossman discusses the factors that enable soldiers to kill in battle. Killing is not easy for most people--even in battle, where their lives depend on their willingness and ability to kill. This problem became especially acute during the World Wars, when most soldiers on both sides were essentially civilians in uniform. Before these men could kill, they needed to be enabled--by social sanction, by the demands of authority figures like officers, by group absolution (and the diffusion of responsibility that being part of a group provides). But one of the most important factors that Grossman identifies is simply: distance. The farther away you are from someone--the harder it is to see their faces, and the fainter their cries of fear and pain--the easier they will be to kill.

This distance is sometimes physical. It's much easier to bomb people from the air than it is to stab them at close quarters. And it's much easier to stab or shoot someone in the back than it is to do it to their faces. Physical distance can also be provided by mechanical means--by the operation of a crew-served weapon, for example. Or by the remote operation of a drone, which is rather like playing a video game.

But psychological distance is just as important, if not more important, than physical distance. This psychological distance can be increased by many factors: racial differences, ethnic differences, class diference, ideological differences, and moral difference. It's much easier to kill someone if their skin is a different colour, if their facial features are different, if they speak a different language and wear different clothing, and if we're convinced that they're somehow bad people. The more I learn about Breivik's motives, the clearer it becomes just how much psychological distance he had put between himself and his fellow Norwegians.

So the greater the distance, the less the distress people feel when they kill, or even when they see someone killed. And the reverse is also true: the lesser the distance, the greater the distress. The more we identify with someone else, the more likely we are to feel their pain. And the closer they are, the more intensely we feel it. Charities understand this: thats why they show people pictures of starving children on television--to bring their suffering right into our living rooms.

It's true that, objectively speaking, there is really no diference between the murders in Oslo and similar murders that go on in other parts of the world every day. Seventy-six deaths would pass practically unnoticed in the Congo, which for years has been the scene of what some people have called "Africa's First World War". But an objective viewpoint does not come naturally to most people. An objective viewpoint is the view from nowhere--and everyone views the world from somewhere. In fact, I would argue that most people who think they are viewing these things "objectively" are really just viewing them from a greater psychological and emotional distance than others. Nothing matters if it's far enough away.

The Western media, by contrast, has been devoting a great deal of attention to these killings because they know that Western people are closer to the victims of this massacre than they are to victims of similar massacres elsewhere--culturally, psychologically, ethnically, even physically in some cases. They've calculated that this incident will draw viewers, because to people in the West, the Norwegians are "us," while the Congolese (for example) are "them." They're concentrating on Norway for the same reason they concentrate on Missing White Women, instead of car accidents or shootings in the ghetto. And we only have to review this thread, and the strong reactions of some people therein, to see that they've calculated correctly.

What's more, I'm not convinced that there's anything inconsistent or hypocritical about either a strong reaction to this tragedy, or the absence of such a strong reaction. This is just the way we're wired as human beings: to care about those who are close, and to not care about those who are distant. Some people feel close to those who were killed in Norway, and others don't. And there's very little sense in demanding that people should feel differently, either way. You're certainly not going to change their minds by arguing with them over the internet.

Breaking your heart over everyone who dies would be just as unnatural as being unmoved by the deaths of your nearest and dearest. Let people feel their feelings--or not feel them, as the case may be. Whether or not they should feel differently is a topic for another time. But always be aware that other people are aware of these psychological facts, and will seek to exploit either your emotional involvement or your indifference for their own purposes and their own gain.
There is a calamitous error. A "normal person" does not even want to kill, correct? They have no idea what they are talking about when dealing with violence, as they can only observe and react to its presence as something other than their first priority in life. A psychopath prefers to visit violence face to face and would consider killing impersonally, for example, a nail bombing, as "just one of those things", a fleeting piece of information.
_________________________


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#57574 - 07/26/11 12:21 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
Black market talk is bullshit. Have you ever tried buying a weapon from it?
Here's the thing — in countries with strict gun control, yes, there are guns in the hands of criminals. But they're usually not gonna sell them to an outsider. Too much risk. If you're able to find a gun dealer, police would certainly be able to find him too. Usually it's police trap.

nexion17: Arming teenagers is certainly not a good idea. Only a psycho would go on and prepare for an attack like this. On the other hand quite a lot of people would be able to kill someone else in a conflict with a firearm. Often not on purpose.

Also no punishment for that guy would work as a deterrent for other people like that. They're so crazy that they simply don't care.

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#57575 - 07/26/11 12:24 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: assault_ninja]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Are you a schoolgirl or what? Leave your comfort-zone for a while, you might learn something about the real world.

D.

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#57577 - 07/26/11 12:49 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: assault_ninja]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: assault_ninja
Black market talk is bullshit.


Not really. They operate like any other market once risk is taken into account. Granted, I have no experience buying AK's, but I have puhlenty of experience being the white dude in the car hittin' 2nd&P with a rack o' bros scopin' some green. The hustlers always marked me as a "jump out," but the deal would always get done (well, except for that one time when we were hit by real jump outs).

Point being, added risk means you have to prove your demand in a black market. It's all about connects. And you build those by being cool. In my youth, I scored a bag of some chronic shit from some dudes in a "foreign territory" just by chillin' right with some other dude at a bar. The deal was done before the Zombies hit me, but then I was smoked up, pocketed up, and trying to drive back to a motel in a blizzard . . . the Zombies eventually hit me (true story).

I've never wanted a gun, as I prefer other types of weapons. But even if I couldn't buy a firearm from a legal source, I have no doubt that I could navigate "the underworld" and procure one.

JK
_________________________



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#57579 - 07/26/11 01:07 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: nexion17]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: nexion17

Since it now appears that most of those killed or injured were teenagers or older, then had some of those youngsters at the youth camp been armed - as for example the Hitler Youth often were - and had they been trained in the use of firearms (again as the Hitler Youth were) and had those youths possessed a more fighting spirit (been tough, as the HY and the Bund Deutscher Mädel in der Hitler-Jugend were taught to be) then it might have been the case that the attacker would have been shot dead before he had the chance to kill many people.

Thus, the tragedy would have been much less.

If this reasoning is sound, then instead of people - as they are now - talking about stricter 'gun controls', they should be talking about making weapons and weapon training more readily available and allowing people to carry firearms or lethal weapons in public, as most people did, for centuries, before modern governments decided they wanted more controls, more restrictions, as governments always seem to.

Had the killer been shot dead in such a way, it would perhaps have been natural justice and might even have served as a better deterrent than a trial and imprisonment.


While the killer might have been stopped if someone on the island had a gun and knew how to use it we cant forget that more guns in circulation also means more guns in the hands of instable people.

So some of the 70+ people in Norway might be alive if the country had no gun control but what would the numbers be in gun related deaths if more people had access to them?

I do believe that gun control is a good thing. I understand the argument from people wanting their rights to own a gun but living in a country where guns are uncommon I see more value in not having many guns around me rather than having the right to carry a gun to protect me from other who also have a gun.

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#57581 - 07/26/11 01:27 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
King is right, obtaining weapons is just a matter of knowing where to seek. In your local environment, either go into the narc-network, bikers or radicals. Of course if you're Joe Average it won't be easy to frequent these environments or gain trust but if you're used to living in the real world, it is not that hard.

Down here there is a steady import of hardware from Eastern Europe and it's continuously on the market. Many go to the homeland on vacation with their family and bring some hardware back. That pays for the vacation.

If one can score dope in their environment, they can score weapons. The trades tend to go hand in hand.

D.

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#57582 - 07/26/11 01:56 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
What many people here are forgetting is that one does not need a gun to cause havoc. What would have prevented this from happening is not gun control it's idiot control which as we all know is sadly impossible.
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#57591 - 07/26/11 04:27 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Meph9]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Diavolo's giving information towards that very goal of idiot control. There's no instant answer. There's no need to be so negative and hopeless, Captain Norway wasn't an idiot, he was just a very sad and pathetic man, we can blame this that and the other for what made him like it but stuff with that kind of psychology happens in childhood. It's how WE raise and value children, they grow up in the end then they are us.
_________________________


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#57596 - 07/26/11 05:42 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Meph9]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
What many people here are forgetting is that one does not need a gun to cause havoc. What would have prevented this from happening is not gun control it's idiot control which as we all know is sadly impossible.


Interestingly enough, over the past few months I had been pondering why there weren't more "terrorist attacks" in the world, given the proliferation of radically violent rhetoric and the ease by which weapons can be obtained. If there are so many Jihadists and extreme anti-Westerners seeking martyrdom, then it wouldn't make sense to rely on fragile and costly operations involving homebrew explosives and hijacked planes. What's there to stop a covert Jihadist from picking up a gun and simply opening fire on a crowd?

So called "anti-terrorism" campaigns focus predominantly on 9/11 or Madrid style attacks, looking for signs of secret networks involving dozens of people, who construct complicated plans requiring a network of materials and various destructive components. It is ironic, then, that the most damage done in this particular atrocity was not from the fertilizer explosives or elaborate conspiracy, but from a simple, cold-hearted slaughter involving requiring nothing more than a couple automatic weapons and a single pair cold-blooded hands pulling the trigger.

It can be a foreboding prospect, to realize that there is almost nothing to prevent such "lone wolf" attacks.


Edited by The Zebu (07/26/11 05:43 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#57598 - 07/26/11 06:20 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Yes I appreciate what you're saying about black market guns D.

I haven't held or even seen a gun in 25 years.

The last time I sat down and had a conversation with a gun owner/advocate was about 20 years ago.

Guns just aren't part of our culture anymore and they just don't get spoken about in the conversations I have with other Australian's.

There is probably a black market in this country as you suggest, but it must be so underground and I don't know what effect it has on our culture here.

I can't comment on Europe - I visitied there recently and still regard it as a sort of paradise. Naive? yes I know.

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#57599 - 07/26/11 06:22 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
While the killer might have been stopped if someone on the island had a gun and knew how to use it we cant forget that more guns in circulation also means more guns in the hands of instable people.


If we operate under the assumption that most people aren't psychotic assholes who just want to kill people (as I believe is the case) then more guns means more guns in the hands of "good" people. In a world where everyone was packing heat, someone would think twice about trying to use theirs against another person.

Aside from the obvious advantage guns provide, there is also the intimidation factor: I have one, you do not, I win. But, if I have one and you have one as well then the odds are a little more evened out. So I think more people with guns is a good thing.

Gun control doesn't work. Period. Guns exist and they are not going anywhere.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#57603 - 07/26/11 07:46 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
Here’s an idea I don’t think has gotten enough credit: requiring a license to become a gun owner. It’s a given in America and most other developed countries around the world that one cannot drive legally without first obtaining a license. Requiring a license allows the state to determine that a) the licensee meets certain background checks and b) the licensee has demonstrated to a professional instructor that he or she is competent to drive. Why should gun owners be held to a lesser standard?
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#57604 - 07/26/11 07:52 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Yes, and once the state regulates the guns, people that would already be attaining the weapons though black and grey channels(you know, the ones that use them) would suddenly find themselves unable to...oh wait...
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#57605 - 07/26/11 07:54 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Not to forget that it is exactly how the guy obtained his firearms.

D.

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#57606 - 07/26/11 09:19 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
So because criminals obtain guns illegally, gun ownership shouldn’t be regulated? Isn’t that the same as saying that because some people who commit crimes while driving cars aren’t licensed, drivers licenses aren’t a good idea?
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#57607 - 07/26/11 09:32 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What I'm saying is that he got his weapons by following State procedures. He didn't have to obtain them illegally.

People need to start realizing that the State does not protect anyone, they just clean up the mess.

D.

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#57608 - 07/26/11 09:59 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
I understand what you’re saying with regard to this incident. However, “the state does not protect anyone” seems a bit broad. I think it’s safe to say that a state-regulated military and police force play a significant role in keeping America safe (or at least keep it from descending into chaos). Regulation is not a cure-all, but it definitely beats anarchy.
_________________________
In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#57609 - 07/26/11 10:04 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
No, all they do is provide an illusion of safety. You can not stop anyone who has the will and takes the initiative.

Sure they keep people under control through fear of punishment but those are not the ones anyone needs to worry about. Those will not act either if their victims carry guns.

D.

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#57610 - 07/26/11 10:12 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Again, in Australia's case, regulation of firearms appears to have been quite effective in minimising gun related crime, gun related suicide and horrific accidents with children and guns etc.

This gun reform was driven by the Australian federal government and the states. It had enormous media approval and the majority of the public were behind it. Big consensus here.

There probably is a black market here, but I am not sure it has much of an impact on our way of life.

One other point: we don't really have a history of political extremism in this country. Australia had a strong labor tradition, but that has been dwindling and dying since the mid 1980's I think.

Many people here aren't really as politically conscious and committed as say the generation who had reached adulthood in the 1970's. Hell, this country couldn't really be bothered becoming a republic because it was considered too expensive to be bothered with. That, plus a healthy mistrust of politican's and the arrangements the politician's were considering putting in place for the election of a president.

Anyway, am still curious about Norway and their culture, politics etc.

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#57611 - 07/26/11 10:39 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: ]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I checked some figures and in 02-03 85% of the firearms to commit murder in Oz were unregistered. A drop in “suicide by firearm” numbers might appear as a good argument at first sight but admit, now they're jumping off a building, or in front of a train, so one really can't consider it a positive effect of gun control. Accidents with children and guns, sure a good argument but what are the numbers? 20 a year and maybe 25 in the past? Again, not quite that strong arguments when going deeper into them.

The problem with asking others to take care of you is becoming dependent upon them. Dependency implies control.

PS: I read some more and while indeed homicide with guns went down in Oz, homicide with knives went up. I guess it's going into the right direction.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (07/26/11 10:45 PM)
Edit Reason: added PS

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#57612 - 07/26/11 10:55 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Yes, those figures are interesting.

I guess it comes down to the sort of society the public wants or thinks it wants.

I would prefer a stable and safe country ,as that means I can get done what I want to get done and lead some sort of happy and contented life.

I am not sure if you have been here D, but the sense of calm and reasonable amount of safety here permeates our culture. It is a rather laid back culture without extreme viewpoints and the need to resort to violence in order to win a point or express those viewpoints.

There are certainly criminal acts here, but I still think we are moving in a desirable direction.

Government intervention in our lives and its role in framing and manipulating our culture is unavoidable. I minimise its impact in my life, but it still exists there as it embodies the legislative function and has a permanent government component.

(Just a question in regards to your politics: you have mentioned your fascist political position in the past. I am not sure how your politics relates to your conception of the state as a potentially undesirable control mechanism. Do Satanist's as a leadership caste just transcend it, or call the shots behind the scenes anyway.)

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#57613 - 07/26/11 11:10 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: ]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with figures is that they serve every argument as well. It's just a matter of knowing which one to use. I read somewhere today that in the USA each year 500 children die of fire-arm related accidents and that these dramas should be avoided at all costs; read severe gun control. But on 200 million fire-arms, that's quite a low number. Accidents do happen with everything. I didn't look it up but I'm sure more kids a year drown. Still, none out there is trying to control swimming pools.

I never been to Oz, although it's on my planning for next year, but I heard it is pretty laid back. We don't have that benefit any longer since we're importing trouble through importing cheap labor. Check crime statistics in Europe and you see a proportional increase between both. It used to be laid back here but now we lock our doors too.

I indeed endorse fascism but it's a system to herd the cattle. I hardly care at all. The State is nothing more than an annoyance, controlling those that allow it.

D.

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#57628 - 07/27/11 03:34 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
While the killer might have been stopped if someone on the island had a gun and knew how to use it we cant forget that more guns in circulation also means more guns in the hands of instable people.


If we operate under the assumption that most people aren't psychotic assholes who just want to kill people (as I believe is the case) then more guns means more guns in the hands of "good" people. In a world where everyone was packing heat, someone would think twice about trying to use theirs against another person.

Aside from the obvious advantage guns provide, there is also the intimidation factor: I have one, you do not, I win. But, if I have one and you have one as well then the odds are a little more evened out. So I think more people with guns is a good thing.

Gun control doesn't work. Period. Guns exist and they are not going anywhere.


Of course most people arent psychotic killers but you dont have to be to be able to murder another person or accidently cause death by the hand of a gun.

You say that gun control doesnt work but it works fine in Sweden for instance. It is rare that the police even has to reach for their guns and the amount of killings because of gun use (accidental or not) are very, very low. And of those that actually do happen the vast majority is internal "settlements" among heavy criminals.

Perhaps gun control wouldnt work in the US where you have a much bigger problem with crime, ghettos, gangs and criminality in general. However in a reasonable well functioning society gun control works well and that is indeed a fact.

You write that "Gun control doesn't work. Period" without any explanation. I live in a society where it does work fine and most countries surrounding mine has the same experiences. So in what way does it not work in our northern european countries according to you?

The statistics regarding gun related deaths in the norther countries are speaking for itself really.

With that being said there are examples of countries that work that are also gun liberal. Switzerland is one of those examples, the US is not.

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#57632 - 07/27/11 11:03 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The problem with figures is that they serve every argument as well. It's just a matter of knowing which one to use. I read somewhere today that in the USA each year 500 children die of fire-arm related accidents and that these dramas should be avoided at all costs; read severe gun control. But on 200 million fire-arms, that's quite a low number. Accidents do happen with everything. I didn't look it up but I'm sure more kids a year drown. Still, none out there is trying to control swimming pools.


I looked it up. In the US for 2007 (for some reason that's the latest available at the CDC site), some random items:

Accidental discharge of firearms: 613 (<1 year: 1, 1-4 years old: 18, 5-14 years old: 46)
Accidental drowning: 3,443 (<1 yr: 57, 1-4 years old: 458, 5-14 years old: 224)
Motor-vehicle accidents: 43,945
All accidents: 123,706
Suicides: 34,598

Homicides: 18,361 (12,632 by firearm) (A quick check of the FBI crime stats shows that homicide has been trending down for more than 20 years, although this 2007 number is up from the trend.)

Salmonella: 30
HIV: 11,295
Malignant neoplasms ("cancer"): 562,875
Diabetes: 71,382
Malnutrition: 2,644
Cardiovascular diseases: 806,156
Influenza and pneumonia: 52,717
All causes: 2,423,712

The general underlying context in such discussions appears to be responsibility, and the amount of responsibility the state should "allow" an individual to "have". Accidents, in general, are nobody's "fault", so there correspondingly less attention to those (except for kid's accidents, which is usually seen as the parent's "fault").

D pointed out nobody is trying to control pools. Diabetes has tracked up in step with sugar consumption over the last century, yet nobody is proposing national diet mandates. As long as you're doing it to yourself, it's all good. That's the reason the illegality of marijuana seems so hypocritical, and the reason that suicides (which is three times higher than gun homicides) don't make the news.
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#57633 - 07/27/11 11:54 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Autodidact]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
There's a saying amongst gun-owners: "When seconds count, the police are just minutes away."

Let's not also forget that the US has over 311,000,000 people living in it. Compare the above stats with a smaller country like the UK with a population of 60,356,419 (>1/5 of the US population), and it seems as though America is a crime-ridden slum and every crime committed is with a firearm. Then take a step back and run the numbers against the total population in the country, and what you're left with is a drop in the bucket.

 Quote:
In London alone - over the May Bank Holiday weekend (27-29th May 06) - Police recorded over 50 knife attacks

http://www.insight-security.com/facts-knife-crime-stats.htm#Statistics%20-%20the%20numbers

From the same CDC article that Auto mentioned--
 Quote:
The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

So, let's adjust the 2007 US population to be ~308mil. Out of those 2.5 million deaths that year, approximately 12,500 were gun-related homicides. Correct my math if it's wrong, but I'm getting .5% out of total deaths reported in 2007, and that's .004% gun-related homicides (not counting suicides) out of the total US population.

Moving on...
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Nothing is sacred.

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#57634 - 07/27/11 12:18 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
In Europe the myth that the USA is a crime ridden country is easily sold but it's not paradise here either.

Sweden as an example, is indeed lower on gun-related crime, but one can hardly consider it on the right track when, at the same time, it is rape country number one in the Euro charts. You wonder why those Swedes like to rape so much. Then you look at the figures and you realize it is not really them.

And that's the problem here in Europe, we are importing crime but shhhht, don't mention that because that is racist.

And then people are surprised about a future in which Europe is burning. That can't be true, we Euros are civilized.

That's indeed the problem, we are too civilized.

D.

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#57638 - 07/27/11 12:49 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Autodidact]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact

D pointed out nobody is trying to control pools. Diabetes has tracked up in step with sugar consumption over the last century, yet nobody is proposing national diet mandates. As long as you're doing it to yourself, it's all good. That's the reason the illegality of marijuana seems so hypocritical, and the reason that suicides (which is three times higher than gun homicides) don't make the news.


The difference is probably that guns are made to cause harm - pools are not. Just a thought...


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Sweden as an example, is indeed lower on gun-related crime, but one can hardly consider it on the right track when, at the same time, it is rape country number one in the Euro charts. You wonder why those Swedes like to rape so much. Then you look at the figures and you realize it is not really them.


There are a few different reasons for this:

(1) What is considered as rape, according to Swedish law compared to that of other countries, is alot more unforgiving. Basically what may be regarded as something less than rape in another country would be classified, in a swedish court, as rape.

(2) Sweden has a very high police report rate when it comes to rape and sexually related crimes. Alot higher than in most other parts of the world. So while Sweden has more reports on rape than Congo for examle it doesnt mean that we have more rapes than said country.

(3) The amnount of rapes has been increasing. Studies havent been made in Sweden regarding this particular subject (on purpose nonetheless because people in power are afraid that it will result in xenophobia). Norway however has studied this and the results are that immigrants are highly overrepresented in these cases. And it usually isnt about European or Asian immigrants but mostly those of African descent, more particular people from Somalia.


Edit: I actually found that studies has been made regarding this. According to BRÅ its 5 times more common, in relation to native Swedish men, that immigrants are reported for rape. 50% of those sentenced for rape were immigrants (1996-2007) first and second generation.

There is also an overrepresentation of certain nationalities which leads to the conclusions that there are no socioeconomic, sex,living condition or wage variables that alone can explain the overrepresentation.

People from Irak represents 1.26% of the Swedish population but 10.53% of the sentenced rapists. Thats an overrepresentation of 8.36!


Edited by TheInsane (07/27/11 01:03 PM)

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#57639 - 07/27/11 01:03 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I didn't say you had more rape then Congo. If, I'd surely would not have entered Sweden without steel pants.

But the problem is an increase of certain crimes related to an increase in immigration. It's happening everywhere in Europe and by blurring the facts, government isn't changing them from happening.

Down here, some newspapers have a policy of not including names when reporting crime. If they didn't people would notice that the majority has funny names.

The problem is that we're being fed the illusion it's all going well. An illusion being upheld by the Left which inevitably lead to a decline during the last years. And still, they keep marginalizing everyone that has a different opinion.

Take Geert Wilders as an example. Even when being the most important player in Dutch politics right now, and having a firm and large voter base, he is continuously demonized and marginalized and through that, everyone that voted for him.

Is it really a surprise some become very very pissed?

D.

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#57640 - 07/27/11 01:12 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

Down here, some newspapers have a policy of not including names when reporting crime. If they didn't people would notice that the majority has funny names.


Where is "down here" if I may ask?

In Sweden newspapers usually dont publish names (even though it happens). They used to write out desciptions of the suspects but some stopped because they feared xenophobia since most descriptions seems to decribe non-european immigrants.

 Quote:
Is it really a surprise some become very very pissed?


Nope

What really gets to me is the marginalization and demonization of people who critiques the current system and also can present numbers and facts that they indeed have a point. Sweden has come along a little bit with the entry of a nationalist party in the government. The others do not agree with what the nationalists see as the cure but at least they start to admit that there is a problem rather than ignoring it. Thats always something.

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#57641 - 07/27/11 01:19 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
Where is "down here" if I may ask?


Here is Belgium, a small, unimportant and currently unstable country in the midst of Europe. And hopefully its first modern linguistic warzone. A man can dream not? ;\)

D.

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#57648 - 07/27/11 03:24 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
All (the state does) is provide an illusion of safety. You can not stop anyone who has the will and takes the initiative.

Sure they keep people under control through fear of punishment but those are not the ones anyone needs to worry about. Those will not act either if their victims carry guns.

It is true that ultimately no one is safe, that each of us is vulnerable to criminal attacks regardless of what regulations are put in place. However, the anti-regulation argument that criminals will break the law anyway is, in and of itself, weak. Why have laws at all if the bad guys are just going to break them? We have laws and regulations so societies will know what’s expected of them and so legal action can be taken against those who do not comply.

Licensing gun owners makes sense to me because it gives law enforcement another tool in their arsenal to use against those suspected of engaging in criminal activity. Those possessing a firearm but no license could have their gun confiscated, be fined and, if necessary, detained. Licensed gun owners who don’t use their guns responsibly could, among other things, have their license revoked. I don’t understand why prospective gun owners having to demonstrate to the state that they’re law-abiding citizens who are considered competent to own and operate a gun wouldn’t be a good idea.
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#57649 - 07/27/11 03:35 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
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stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I have no problem with licensing gun owners but it simply does not solve any problem. The majority of homicides are commit “on the moment”. Which means they are not calculated nor planned. Doped, drugged, enraged; these kinds of situations trigger most of them. Laws, consequences and gun control matter little at that moment. Of course it can be argued that less firearms will result in less use during these situations. Yes, that's indeed true but then you'll just see more homicides commit with knives, blunt objects or whatever available at those moments.

Regulation also does not have an effect on the possibility to obtain unregistered weapons, and these are often used in calculated crime. They do not want registered weapons for obvious reasons.

Gun control is always argued as a solution while it close to never is.

D.

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#57650 - 07/27/11 04:23 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Of course most people arent psychotic killers but you dont have to be to be able to murder another person or accidently cause death by the hand of a gun.


I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying that I don't have to own a gun? I know that I don't have to but I prefer to have them. And in all my years of gun ownership I have never shot anyone or even had to point it at someone.

 Quote:
You write that "Gun control doesn't work. Period" without any explanation. I live in a society where it does work fine and most countries surrounding mine has the same experiences. So in what way does it not work in our northern european countries according to you?


Gun control doesn't work in that it does nothing to guns out of the hands of people who intend to use them for nefarious purposes. Sure, gun stores have to run a background check on any prospective buyer but in private sales (citizen to citizen) there are no such laws.

Guns are not the issue, people are the issue.
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#57651 - 07/27/11 04:38 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
Of course most people arent psychotic killers but you dont have to be to be able to murder another person or accidently cause death by the hand of a gun.


I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying that I don't have to own a gun? I know that I don't have to but I prefer to have them. And in all my years of gun ownership I have never shot anyone or even had to point it at someone.


Your argument was that most people are "good" and that means more guns in the hands of "good people" - the opposite of what you call "psychotic assholes who wants to murder people".

My answer was that I dont consider men in general to be psychotic assholes but that that isnt a requirement for being responsible for death by gunfire (one way or another). More guns = more gun related deaths and injuries. Its quite simple really.

 Quote:
Gun control doesn't work in that it does nothing to guns out of the hands of people who intend to use them for nefarious purposes. Sure, gun stores have to run a background check on any prospective buyer but in private sales (citizen to citizen) there are no such laws.


True, those who want a gun for criminal activity will get them anyway. However the amount of unplanned and accidental deaths (or injuries) caused by gunfire will be heavily reduced. Less guns on the marked will also lead to them being less accessible for the people who might not be heavily criminal but only bordeline so. That to will stop some of the gun related violence some countries experience.

 Quote:
Guns are not the issue, people are the issue.


True, which is why less guns in the hands of people also lead to less deaths and injuries caused by gunfire. Guns without people around them would cause little harm you see ;\)


Edited by TheInsane (07/27/11 04:40 PM)

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#57652 - 07/27/11 04:44 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
Less guns on the marked will also lead to them being less accessible for the people who might not be heavily criminal but only bordeline so. That to will stop some of the gun related violence some countries experience.


This is a flawed argument since you'd have to provide evidence that less guns directly imply less violence in general. Else we're just arguing which is most civilized; killing with a gun or killing with a knife.

D.

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#57653 - 07/27/11 04:57 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
More guns = more gun related deaths and injuries


But not all of those killed are innocents. A good portion of them will be people who were killed in self-defense and basically had it coming.

 Quote:
However the amount of unplanned and accidental deaths (or injuries) caused by gunfire will be heavily reduced.


How do you figure? I'm pretty sure most accidental deaths and injuries involving firearms are tied in with guns that were legally purchased.

 Quote:
Less guns on the marked will also lead to them being less accessible for the people who might not be heavily criminal but only bordeline so.


And how do you plan to make it so there as less guns? Currently there are more guns than people in the world and I don't see that number decreasing. It is not as if a large number of people would be willing to give their guns up. Especially not if the government was demanding that people do it. That would just open a whole new can of worms.

 Quote:
True, which is why less guns in the hands of people also lead to less deaths and injuries caused by gunfire.


But that will not stop people from using other means to kill or maim. Or is violence only bad when it is gun violence?
_________________________
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#57654 - 07/27/11 05:17 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
Less guns on the marked will also lead to them being less accessible for the people who might not be heavily criminal but only bordeline so. That to will stop some of the gun related violence some countries experience.


This is a flawed argument since you'd have to provide evidence that less guns directly imply less violence in general. Else we're just arguing which is most civilized; killing with a gun or killing with a knife.

D.


You're right, we can only say that it least to less "gun influenced" deaths/injuries. But I'd rather have people walk around with knifes than with guns if I had to choose even though neither is good of course.

Basically I choose a line where I'd rather have people have easy access to one weapon instead of two weapon (where the second is one that is also more dangerous in many ways not least because of the distance it creates between the shooter and the victim).

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
But not all of those killed are innocents. A good portion of them will be people who were killed in self-defense and basically had it coming.


Who is then to judge who is worthy and not? Of course it will be an increased number of people dead that deserved it. There will also be an increased number of people dead that didnt in the slightest deserve it.

 Quote:
How do you figure? I'm pretty sure most accidental deaths and injuries involving firearms are tied in with guns that were legally purchased. . .

. . .And how do you plan to make it so there as less guns? Currently there are more guns than people in the world and I don't see that number decreasing.


If a country bans guns except for people who have a sepcific use for them (like hunters) they will become less avaliable to the vast majority of the countrys inhabitants. Its not rocket science. The number of guns might not decrease but the avaliability will and there will perhaps be fewer new industries started to produce hand guns in said country.

And again, my argument is that less guns, legal or illegal = less deaths of all kinds related to gun violence. In a country with strict gun control there will be less guns and therefore the access to them wont be as high and therefore deaths and violence by gunfire will be reduced.

I dont have numbers but I doubt that a ban on guns will create more deadly violence. Either it stays at the same rate or, more likely, it will be reduced.

 Quote:
But that will not stop people from using other means to kill or maim. Or is violence only bad when it is gun violence?


No its not. But look at what I wrote above. What do you think would be the difference between two identical countries, with the same laws, only that one of them had strict gun control and the other not?

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#57655 - 07/27/11 05:30 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Look at the other side of the issue.

What do you think would happen if everyone was allowed to carry a concealed firearm? Do you think rapist would that easily jump a woman? Do you think mugging that stranger would be as tempting as it is now? By psychology alone, it would have an effect upon other crimes.

D.

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#57656 - 07/27/11 05:39 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Look at the other side of the issue.

What do you think would happen if everyone was allowed to carry a concealed firearm? Do you think rapist would that easily jump a woman? Do you think mugging that stranger would be as tempting as it is now? By psychology alone, it would have an effect upon other crimes.

D.


It probably would make a difference. However what is needed is really more civil courage which is frightfully lacking. Even though an assault is happening in a big crowd, more often than not no one dares to interfere. If people just did, especially with the numbers gain that would be the most important key in all of this.

But yeah in hypothetical cases like this you would have to weeigh the pros and cons of both sides. In cases of rape pepperspray is actually very underrated - it works great. However many countries have laws against carrying it with you. I would definately allow pepper spray before firearms.

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#57661 - 07/27/11 07:59 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Well you outside of all the dueling over semantics it's quite simple:

Gun laws do not stop murders but they can decrease crimes involving guns to some extent

Most people don't want to commit

The people who do wouldn't really be stopped by anything in terms of law and regulation

I think there's a bit of dancing around the same points here. Really I'm not sure what the huge disagreement is here.

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#57662 - 07/27/11 08:39 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Meph9]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Some additional information on the Australian gun control experience.

The below links lead to the Australian government’s Australian Institute of Criminology.

The first link provides information on Australian homicide’s.

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.aspx

The second link provides information on Australian violent crime more generally.

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.aspx

Other violent crime, such as knife crime may have increased and we do still have some gun crime.

But, we can limit the rampages, such as Port Arthur etc. by making it much harder for nutcases to get their hands on guns.

It is harder to have a tragedy/massacre if you have a knife wielding maniac, rather than a gun wielding maniac.

I think this applies, even if, there is a black market for guns in this country.

We don’t have a perfect country by any means, we still have bad neighbourhoods and violent individuals, but still, if we can limit a criminal/nutcase’s options by getting rid of guns than that is the better way to go.

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#57665 - 07/27/11 09:54 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: ]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Of course knife wielding maniacs don't do as much damage as gun wielding maniacs but it's not that those maniacs are a normal phenomena. It's like serial killers; you'll always have them but they tend to be a minority compared to normal killers.

But the real issue is that when the State takes your weapons, it robs you of an option. It tells you it is for your own good and that there are cops protecting you. But none is protecting you, it is impossible unless they're going to put one cop next to each civilian. And then a cop next to that cop just to make sure the first cop will never freak out.

The truth is that you're on your own and that the only one being able to protect you when needed are you yourself. A gun isn't going to save you by definition but it adds an option towards the improvisation you'll have to do when shit hits the fan. It might be just the thing needed to make sure you, or those you love, survive. It might not be needed at all but when you got no weapons, anyone with them always has a big advantage.

In the end, it all is about having them protect you, or trying it yourself. The odds the cavalry will be there in time were never that great. That's why they have the body bags ready.

D.

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#57666 - 07/27/11 10:09 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: ]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
But then what do you do when a member of the military takes out innocents, as in the case of the Fort Hood in the US shootings a couple of years ago? He's more than qualified to handle a firearm, is in a position of authority. When people like him start taking people out, who/what is the average citizen supposed to turn to?

It's marginally easier for Australia to limit contraband, by virtue of it being surrounded by water on all sides. Europe and the US don't have that option. We have Mexicans digging tunnels into the US, smuggling drugs, weapons and migrant workers in and out of the country.

I don't see what the big deal is, since the majority of gun-related deaths consist of suicides. If someone wants to be an idiot and Kurt Cobain themselves, who are we to say "no, jump off a bridge instead please"? We need to maintain that high suicide rate to counteract the illegals sneaking over the borders ;\)
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#57674 - 07/28/11 12:39 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
But the real issue is that when the State takes your weapons, it robs you of an option. It tells you it is for your own good and that there are cops protecting you. But none is protecting you, it is impossible unless they're going to put one cop next to each civilian. And then a cop next to that cop just to make sure the first cop will never freak out.

The truth is that you're on your own and that the only one being able to protect you when needed are you yourself. A gun isn't going to save you by definition but it adds an option towards the improvisation you'll have to do when shit hits the fan. It might be just the thing needed to make sure you, or those you love, survive. It might not be needed at all but when you got no weapons, anyone with them always has a big advantage.

In the end, it all is about having them protect you, or trying it yourself. The odds the cavalry will be there in time were never that great. That's why they have the body bags ready.

D.


Diavolo, you are completely correct!

I have a question for anyone that is arguing against owning a gun. Have any of you ever had to call the police because someone shot at your home? When our front window was hit by the idiot that shot up the neighborhood houses with a bb gun, I called the police and simply told them our house had been shot at. While on the phone with them, they never asked what kind of gun/bullet or what was hit. They didn't ask anything other than if anyone had been hit. When I told them no it took them better than 20 minutes to get here (we live exactly 3 minutes from the police station and that's IF you catch the 2 lights in between). I know it was just a bb gun but the police didn't know that, nor did I, until a bit later. However, I realized that night it is up to us to take care of ourselves. PERIOD.

I NEVER wanted a gun in my home but will have one by this winter. I've registered for a class and will get to handle a few different types of hand guns to see which one I prefer. Both of my boys will also go to gun classes. It's no longer an option and we don't live "in da hood" but in what was a very decent area. It's filtering down and soon this won't be a town that's worth a shit either (a lot like my other half's home town).

It's simple really. CYOA and any way you need to!

As for that looneypieceofshit....He will deserve all that he hopefully gets. The least he could have done was go after those that directly affected him, not teens, not kids. They hadn't affected him and shouldn't have been his target. He's a pussy and hopefully a "Big Bubba" will find him in jail or someone will when they shuttle him back and forth for trial.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#57687 - 07/28/11 04:14 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
But the real issue is that when the State takes your weapons, it robs you of an option. It tells you it is for your own good and that there are cops protecting you. But none is protecting you, it is impossible unless they're going to put one cop next to each civilian. And then a cop next to that cop just to make sure the first cop will never freak out.


In a well working society there is no huge need to actively protect everyone by manpower. In a healthy culture shootings are not common. The feel of a need for firearms point more to the society being sick than anything else. Obviously there is a big difference here. In Sweden I think very, very few are worried about gunfire (no one I have ever known have expressed worries about this). In the US it seems like people are very worried about it (out of the americans I know many have expressed their worries about firearm in direct relation to themselves). I dont know about Belgium but I think it says more about a countrys general culture and situation really.

 Originally Posted By: Nyte
I have a question for anyone that is arguing against owning a gun. Have any of you ever had to call the police because someone shot at your home?


No that hasnt happened to me and there is a good reason for that. These things barely happens in Sweden at all. Im sure you can find one or two examples here and there but in general it is a non-existent phenomenon over here. Now I realize this has to do with alot more than strict gun control. Hoever I think that strict gun control is one part of this reason.

To argue the rights for anyone having a gun because other people has a gun will only lead to circle reasoning and such politics wont go to the source of the problem - that being that loads of people walk around with guns!

I dont think you can fight gun related crime by increasing the amount of guns in circulation even among the so called "good people". The way to decrease it is to decrease the amount of guns avaliable for people to use - legal or not.

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#57697 - 07/28/11 11:03 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
A well working society and a healthy culture are indeed the issue. I don't know what age you are but when looking back, do you see improvement?

I know, things always looked better in the past and much of what we think these days is affected by a direct global communication but I remember quite well that we didn't lock our doors when I was young, or our cars. I remember quite well immigrants never were a problem. I grew up in an area which had coal mining, so immigrants were a normal thing to us. I went to school with Greeks, Polish, Italians...etc. I still know many of them and the differences are solely a matter of some typical names, or some slight genetics.

Now mind you, I fully understand that times change, that societies evolve. But strangely, the more “civilized” we have become, the more problems appeared. The more tolerant and open-minded, the more we get fucked it seems. When looking around, I see a whole lot more cops. But the population surely did not increase at that rate.

Now, I'm surely not going to say it is all to blame at those last generation immigrants. It isn't. It is us. Somewhere we traded something valuable to gain our precious individuality, for our insatiable urge to consume and apparently, that what we sacrificed to this appears to be essential. Maybe it was our individual responsibility, our sense for our own community.

We squandered our own culture, gave our own responsibility to the government who gladly accepted it, and focused solely on that what matters, we ourselves. Christianity robbed us of our values, and now we freely traded in our souls. For some mirrors and cheap jewelry.

We became children again, without care, without responsibility, and upon the first sign of trouble, crying for our Mother.

A well working society and a healthy culture are indeed the issue.

D.

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#57699 - 07/28/11 12:45 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
You are right on the money.

When I was young we never left the car unlocked but usually didnt bother to lock the doors to our house while at home. In the summertime we often had the doors wide open to create a draft (is that the word Im looking for?). To be honest I wouldnt be surprised if they still do the same in that area today. In the countryside people still dont lock their doors that frequently. Today I always lock my door even though we havent had any problems with break-ins and such. The culture has changed to better safe than sorry I guess.

Immigrants themselves are not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is us - the society they come to. We allow them to alienate themselves when we shouldnt, for example, let them settle down wherever they want. They should be strategically placed so that they had to conform to the culture and thus become a part of society. The biggest immigration related problem in Sweden today is that they all settle in the same place (big city suburbs) and there they depend on eachother, not the Swedish society, and thus they never enter our society. Heck, people have been here for 10+ years and cant speak Swedish and then survive only on allowances.

It may sound strange to some Satanists but we need to strengthen our culture and not let everyone choose for themselves what is good or bad, acceptable or unacceptable. To create a healthy nation we need a healthy culture. I wholeheartedly agree when you wrote that "we became children again, without care, without responsibility, and upon the first sign of trouble, crying for our Mother."

A healthy society needs values and Id rather live in a healthy society than an unhealthy one. The cream will always rise to the top anyway. We need to reclaim our culture and strengthen it. Otherwise we will continue to degenerate.

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#57700 - 07/28/11 12:55 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
I see improvements in many areas. In others, not so much.

Our curse is that we forget. It seems our problems today (many of which are simply manufactured out of nothingness) are huge, but they are only relative to those forgotten issues. For example, you cite cops increasing faster than population - but (in the US anyway) violent crime has been decreasing for decades. The year of Columbine had less school shootings than previous years. But nobody gets paid to keep you well-informed ;\)

That's a separate issue from the consumption mentality. Really, I'm not clear that it could be any different. Humans have evolved to fight for survival and breeding, but there's no universal directive on what to do with disposable income. I discovered the original Star Trek on Netflix last night, and I remember thinking that if there's no money needed in a few hundred years, 99.9% of the population will be couch potatoes and just a few will join Star Fleet. That's just the nature of the species. People get the government they deserve. Oh, and that reminds me of this:

 Originally Posted By: Alexander Tytler
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.


Yes, yes, it's apocryphal, but the sentiment is the main point, not the accuracy of the quote. After food and shelter are safely taken care of, what real needs does the average man have, if he does have the spark of the black flame in his heart?
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#57701 - 07/28/11 01:59 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Autodidact]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You are indeed right, the moment our basic needs are met, we become slackers. It might be argued that the natural human condition is being economical; if effort is not needed, there will none be done, and only through pressure human rises above their current status. Through suffering, learning comes.

In our current societies, our basic needs are met. Almost under all conditions. Our focus shifts from improvement towards distraction. It shifts from the outside to the inside. The societal and governing political memes promote pure individuality; an equality in being. Every concern is purely about us. We are constantly distracted and provided new distractions. We are addicted to these distractions. We can't live without television, we can't live without a steady flow of new movies, new music, new games. We need to be entertained all the time, at all costs. We can't handle not being entertained.

We stumbled from the industrial age into the entertainment age. We are truly Homo Ludens. No responsibility, no vision, only entertainment in mind. And at the same time our democracy shifts into a subtle tyranny. It is our nanny solving our problems and keeping us safe. We grant it all power it demands as long as we just keep being entertained. And at the same time, we weaken from within.

We are living in a bubble which can't but collapse but as long as we are watching Big Brother, we don't even notice. We simply do not care.

D.

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#57715 - 07/28/11 07:47 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Sean the Mystic]
magnitudo Offline
banned
stranger


Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 33
Loc: Italy
I can see here in Europe that there is an invasion of other people strangers. It could be better an union of cultures but the fact is that they want to take the control. Every race want to take the control here in Europe and the Europe responds with a closed partitocracy without love for the European people. So I hope in an Europe that live in peace and so that everyone help who is in difficulties and not against them. The violence is not a response. R.I.P. in Norway.
_________________________
magnitudo magic peace friendship

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#57717 - 07/28/11 07:54 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Who is then to judge who is worthy and not?


If someone tries to kill you, they are worthy of themselves being killed first.

 Quote:
There will also be an increased number of people dead that didnt in the slightest deserve it.


Doubtful. More people with guns = More "good" people with guns = criminal types will have to think twice about pulling their gun on someone.

 Quote:
If a country bans guns except for people who have a sepcific use for them (like hunters) they will become less avaliable to the vast majority of the countrys inhabitants. Its not rocket science.


There's this thing, maybe you've heard of it, it's called lying. One could easily say they have specific use for it when in reality it is different from what they say. Also, people (like hunters) could still use their gun for other purposes. It's not rocket science.

 Quote:
The number of guns might not decrease but the avaliability will and there will perhaps be fewer new industries started to produce hand guns in said country.


If the number of guns remains the same, there can be no decrease in availability. There will always be gunsmiths. Ranging from your large companies like Glock, H&K, Mossberg et al. to your garage gunsmith.

 Quote:
And again, my argument is that less guns, legal or illegal = less deaths of all kinds related to gun violence.


And again, good luck decreasing the number of guns. I'm not giving mine up and I don't no anyone else who is willing to either. To quote Heston, "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands!"

 Quote:
In a country with strict gun control there will be less guns and therefore the access to them wont be as high and therefore deaths and violence by gunfire will be reduced.


And instead you will see an increase in other types of violence. People use guns to kill because it is quick and easy. But, gun or not, if someone wants to kill someone else they will find a way.

 Quote:
I dont have numbers but I doubt that a ban on guns will create more deadly violence.


It's not that it would create more, it's that it would just create a different type. On the other hand, it could create more. A ban on guns is not the same as the removal of all guns from a country. It just means that criminal types would be the only ones with guns. Some (like me) would be criminals simply because they refused to turn in their guns whereas others are the ones that will capitalize on the lack of guns and use their having one to their advantage. Thus creating more gun violence.

 Quote:
What do you think would be the difference between two identical countries, with the same laws, only that one of them had strict gun control and the other not?


The difference would be that I would only want to live in one of them.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#57760 - 07/29/11 03:51 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
Who is then to judge who is worthy and not?


If someone tries to kill you, they are worthy of themselves being killed first.


See its not that easy. There are something called laws and you will have to be assembeled to a court if you killed another person. Ultimately its not you who decides whats wrong and right in the view of society. Of course we have our own morals and ethics but we cannot count on them but has to see the big picture.

 Quote:
Doubtful. More people with guns = More "good" people with guns = criminal types will have to think twice about pulling their gun on someone.


It also means more "bad people" with guns. And "less experienced" people with guns. And "less responsible" people with guns. I doubt a criminal would think twice about using a gun just because other people might have one. Over here they dont use guns because people in general dont have them so there is no need for guns - what a noble concept, eh?

 Quote:
There's this thing, maybe you've heard of it, it's called lying. One could easily say they have specific use for it when in reality it is different from what they say. Also, people (like hunters) could still use their gun for other purposes. It's not rocket science.

If the number of guns remains the same, there can be no decrease in availability. There will always be gunsmiths. Ranging from your large companies like Glock, H&K, Mossberg et al. to your garage gunsmith.


If a country bans guns the avaliability of them will decrease even if the number of guns in the world stay the same. less people will own a gun and even less will use it. Its the same as with drugs in a healthy society. In Sweden marijuana is banned and in the Netherlands its legal. The avaliability is larger in one country and the use is larger in one country. The amount avaliable in the world is still the same. laws do make a difference if enforced.

 Quote:

And instead you will see an increase in other types of violence. People use guns to kill because it is quick and easy. But, gun or not, if someone wants to kill someone else they will find a way.


I think that other types of deadly violence might increase but never reach the same level of deadly violence as there would be if guns were legal all along. Yes if someone really wants to kill another person he will do it no matter what. There is a huge difference in the mortality rate depending on what weapon is used.

 Quote:
The difference would be that I would only want to live in one of them.


I am very happy living in a country where we dont even have to bother being afraid to be shot at because it practically doest happen here. Who draws the shortest straw? The one who is so concerned about his safety that he has to own a gun to feel safer even in his own neighbourhood or the one living in a society that is practically free from gun violence and is not concerned to arm himself with any weapon?

With that said I think its time to for me to leave the discussion since we're both just repeating our arguments and its clear that neither will make the other one change his (her?) mind.

Until the next time...

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#57764 - 07/29/11 08:55 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The issue is that we are fed the idea that gun control does solve "things". The problem is, we don't really know what those "things" are it solves but we still think that it is very good.

But did you ever see evidence? I mean, real numbers detailing which "things" are actually solved?

D.

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#57771 - 07/29/11 12:18 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: TheInsane]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
See its not that easy. There are something called laws and you will have to be assembeled to a court if you killed another person.


Actually, it is that easy. Self-preservation is the highest law and if someone is presenting an immediate threat to my well-being I can and will react with deadly force. Sure, it might go to court but an act of self-defence will be seen as such.

 Quote:
I doubt a criminal would think twice about using a gun just because other people might have one.


Oh really? A thought experiment: if you were planning on robbing someone at gunpoint would you choose your victim out of a crowd of people leaving an NRA meeting or would you rather rob someone who is leaving an anti-gun rally?

 Quote:
If a country bans guns the avaliability of them will decrease even if the number of guns in the world stay the same.


Only for people who are willing to obey the laws. Those are not the type of people you should be worried about anyway. So, again, the banning of guns will not help a damn thing.

 Quote:
In Sweden marijuana is banned and in the Netherlands its legal. The avaliability is larger in one country and the use is larger in one country.


The Netherlands has a lower amount of marijuana use than the USA. Prohibition still doesn't work.

 Quote:
Over here they dont use guns because people in general dont have them so there is no need for guns - what a noble concept, eh?


It is better to have and not need than to need and not have.

 Quote:
I think that other types of deadly violence might increase but never reach the same level of deadly violence as there would be if guns were legal all along.


And I believe it would meet that level. This is, of course, merely speculation on both are parts and there is only one way to find out.

 Quote:
I am very happy living in a country where we dont even have to bother being afraid to be shot at because it practically doest happen here. Who draws the shortest straw? The one who is so concerned about his safety that he has to own a gun to feel safer even in his own neighbourhood or the one living in a society that is practically free from gun violence and is not concerned to arm himself with any weapon?


Not everyone who buys a gun does so out of fear. I like shooting and cleaning my guns, it's relaxing for me. Where I live is generally a safe place. Most of the crimes out here consist of DUI, petty theft and drug sales/possesion. I'm not worried about being shot - unless I am in Portland - in which case I am more worried about being shot by the police than anyone else.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#57775 - 07/29/11 04:48 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I like your direct and no nonsense approach 6. Just thought I'd add some thoughts not so entirely unrelated.

I can't condone what Captain Norway went about doing but Noble caste was always the barbarian caste. No fabricated laws or convenient fiction can decide over Nature's law, the master, with a natural Nature, barbarian in every terrible sense, in possession of unbroken strength of will and desire for power, man of prey.

I can only think of two types of people who are exemplary of such barbarism— one kind is utterly despicable if not only for aiming at children, women, the other is Noble if not only for destruction of his lesser, peasantry sub-male.

I'd posit that it is a man's masculinity that decides on his actions most of all over any other psychological factors. Do we see women committing homicidal atrocities on the same scale as us menfolk? Surely not. I can see that Captain Norway was misogynistic and also fundamentalist Christian in his opposition to matriarchy.

Inspired by my readings of the 2083 manifesto, a few thoughts. Although affirming many aspects of current affairs, Captain Norway was deftly afraid that matriarchy would lead to androgyny (neither clearly masculine nor clearly feminine) taking over in society, hence ruining his idealisation which was in all knowing to him "malign optimism" a deliberately made impossible and unrealistic goal for which to build reason for atrocity upon it's ruination.

His view of matriarchy is false. We could use the example of feminism which has no opposite and is naysaying in counter to abuse on the side of patriarchy, a double negative, it's an abstraction, now, matriarchy and patriarchy in classical indo-European societies lived for and appreciated their differences, the opposites thrives from their appreciation of one another. In this Jesuitical patriarch disequilibrium we have as a society, it's no surprise that despicable males run rampant— there is no natural aristocratic culling of the ranks. What on earth am I illiterately scrawling about?

In an enclosed society of herd moralists, the utilitarian opportunist feels confident and safe, until faced with his natural master, and inevitable conclusion... It's all a matter of the Jesuitical society being self assured that none are left to their own devices, and sure enough, this is true for the most part among their caste, however, what develops in plain sight is the psychopath who's thoughts are so deeply esoteric and malevolent that all societies laws and morality does is cultivate more repressed rage and provide a convenient veil of deceit. \:\)

 Quote:
Actually, it is that easy. Self-preservation is the highest law and if someone is presenting an immediate threat to my well-being I can and will react with deadly force. Sure, it might go to court but an act of self-defence will be seen as such.


There's the reality of it plain and simple. So true. You can kill in defence of family too. Acting in self defence or in defence of another is generally accepted as legal justification for killing an assailant. Although any form of "baiting" is completely illegal.

The laws of self defence are very clear, and we can't stress this enough can we.


Edited by Hegesias (07/29/11 05:18 PM)
Edit Reason: censor
_________________________


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#57779 - 07/29/11 06:54 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
I doubt a criminal would think twice about using a gun just because other people might have one.


Oh really? A thought experiment: if you were planning on robbing someone at gunpoint would you choose your victim out of a crowd of people leaving an NRA meeting or would you rather rob someone who is leaving an anti-gun rally?


Ever see the story about the dipshit that tried to rob a gun shop? The end result is Priceless! I "Snoped" it just to be sure but here it is....lmao

http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/gunshop.asp

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
If a country bans guns the availability of them will decrease even if the number of guns in the world stay the same.


Only for people who are willing to obey the laws. Those are not the type of people you should be worried about anyway. So, again, the banning of guns will not help a damn thing.


Banning guns will only help the criminals because "average Joe" is now pretty much defenseless if he abides by the law. Banning guns would help one thing....the criminals.

The comparison is like apples and oranges here. 311 million plus compared to a country of 9 million plus. Illegals abound, drugs abound, crimes abound and honest citizens that should be able to protect themselves and another country that has "closed" boarders, "limited" illegals, and drugs are dealt with....Yeah, not a comparison at all. But then again, I do believe Nemesis and even Diavolo (in a round about way) pointed this out all ready. If the situations had been comparable, that would be one thing, but they're not.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#57781 - 07/29/11 07:09 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Nyte]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Ever see the story about the dipshit that tried to rob a gun shop? The end result is Priceless! I "Snoped" it just to be sure but here it is....lmao

http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/gunshop.asp


Yeah, people can be pretty stupid. This sounds like an extreme case of suicide by cop.

 Quote:
Banning guns will only help the criminals because now "average Joe" is now pretty much defenseless if he abides by the law. Banning guns would help one thing....the criminals.


Exactly.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#57938 - 08/03/11 07:32 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Jason King]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
Black market for guns is different thing from drugs(or prostitution for that matter). There are several reasons why there would be no black market in a country with severe gun control:
A. There would be little demand. I don't know why some people think that criminals are some kind of crazy gun-obsessed zombies. Generally, members of the organized crime would avoid having guns. For the most crimes there's generally little advantage in using a gun. And there are disadvantages — it generally adds some prison time for you and cops would look harder. Also, if you're an ex-con, you may not want to have a gun just because there's a bigger chance of getting caught with it. The only members of organized crime that usually use guns are hitmen and people who protect their bosses from hitmen.
B. Police has real incentive to shut down gun trade. You know who has a great chance to get shot by them? There's not much incentive in shotting down prostitution and drug trade is sometimes profitable to the cops.
C. There's huge risk in running gun trade.

6Satan6Archist6:
 Quote:
But, gun or not, if someone wants to kill someone else they will find a way.

May I add that the gun probably won't help you in this case?

 Quote:
To quote Heston, "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands!"

Have you ever heard about David Koresh? ;\)

 Quote:

Oh really? A thought experiment: if you were planning on robbing someone at gunpoint would you choose your victim out of a crowd of people leaving an NRA meeting or would you rather rob someone who is leaving an anti-gun rally?

That's a close call. Robbing NRA member is good since you get another gun, bad because he may be stupid enough to try drawing his and then you'd have to shoot him.

General comment:
Diavolo is right about "on the moment" homicides. But that's where you can make a prohibition argument — killing with a gun is easier. It would take a lesser state of mind than say a knife, or beating somebody to death. Also there would be more accidental deaths when somebody didn't wanted to kill, but his opponent for example tried to disarm him.

Also I want to mention that at the end there's really no final argument in favor or against gun control, since it is impossible to organize a proper study, because we don't have twin countries to experiment on.

BTW, since I've already talked a little bit about schizoid personality disorder on this forum, I guess I have to mention this too. Since the Oslo incident happened, I was expecting somebody to mention it in connection with Breivik. Well, they did.

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#57942 - 08/03/11 07:53 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: assault_ninja]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: assault_ninja
Black market for guns is different thing from drugs(or prostitution for that matter). There are several reasons why there would be no black market in a country with severe gun control:
A. There would be little demand. I don't know why some people think that criminals are some kind of crazy gun-obsessed zombies. Generally, members of the organized crime would avoid having guns. For the most crimes there's generally little advantage in using a gun. And there are disadvantages — it generally adds some prison time for you and cops would look harder. Also, if you're an ex-con, you may not want to have a gun just because there's a bigger chance of getting caught with it. The only members of organized crime that usually use guns are hitmen and people who protect their bosses from hitmen.
B. Police has real incentive to shut down gun trade. You know who has a great chance to get shot by them? There's not much incentive in shotting down prostitution and drug trade is sometimes profitable to the cops.
C. There's huge risk in running gun trade.


Seriously man, this is bullshit.

First, black markets are called such because the law has no control upon them, it's a shadow economy. The more regulation, the higher the probability for a black market since more regulation implies more profit on selling it illegally. More regulation also implies more demand. There is no black market only when everything can freely be bought.

D.

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#57943 - 08/03/11 08:34 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: assault_ninja]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Black market for guns is different thing from drugs(or prostitution for that matter).


No, it's not, it's the exact same thing. "Black Market" simply means illegal. It is not as if there is an actual black market that you can go to. Anything illegally purchased on the streets is purchased on the black market; from guns to bootleg DVDs to rancid pussy to drug etc.

 Quote:
There would be little demand.


Wrong. There will always be a demand. Stricter regulation just means more of a risk which in turn denotes a higher profit to be made. Oxycodone is strictly controlled and there is no shortage of a demand for it.

 Quote:
I don't know why some people think that criminals are some kind of crazy gun-obsessed zombies.


It's not that people think criminals a "crazy gun-obsessed zombies" it's that crime can be dangerous and, as such, people need protection. Guns are a convenient method of protection.

 Quote:
Generally, members of the organized crime would avoid having guns.


What?! Their superior firepower is partly what gave them their edge over the police. You obviously know as much about the mafia as you do about the black market.

 Quote:
For the most crimes there's generally little advantage in using a gun.


Yeah, little advantage. Except for the giant advantage of having a lead chucker.

 Quote:
And there are disadvantages — it generally adds some prison time for you and cops would look harder. Also, if you're an ex-con, you may not want to have a gun just because there's a bigger chance of getting caught with it.


And you think "they" care? They're criminals ffs.

 Quote:
The only members of organized crime that usually use guns are hitmen and people who protect their bosses from hitmen.


Are you in the Mob?

 Quote:
Police has real incentive to shut down gun trade. You know who has a great chance to get shot by them? There's not much incentive in shotting down prostitution and drug trade is sometimes profitable to the cops.


How is that the prostitution and the drug trade are profitable to police but guns aren't?

 Quote:
There's huge risk in running gun trade.


Which is why it is so profitable; which is why it will not get shutdown.

 Quote:
May I add that the gun probably won't help you in this case?


You can add whatever you want but you're still wrong.

 Quote:
Have you ever heard about David Koresh?


Yes. Your point is what?

 Quote:
That's a close call. Robbing NRA member is good since you get another gun, bad because he may be stupid enough to try drawing his and then you'd have to shoot him.


Only a complete moron would try to rob someone coming out of an NRA rally. Proof positive that the chance you are carrying a gun makes it less likely you will be a victim.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#58378 - 08/20/11 03:46 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Woland]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA


Well, I just read through all 13 pages of this thread for the first time. As best I can tell, it went from sympathy for the Norway victims to HangHimHigh for the killer to other kids are dying too to how DARE you mention that to moderator banning orgies to thread lock to thread unlock to gun control to gun masturbation.

Well, just to keep the Great Mandala spinning along:
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#58493 - 08/22/11 10:51 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
I debated about quoting the whole back and forth but to be honest, it would take too much time.

Assult...you're a real dipshit about what the "illegal elements" are really like. Have you bothered to even talk to someone that's done "real time"? I'll make this as clear as it can be.

Not long ago I moved from a place that's very well known for it's "crime elements", Mansfield. YES, where the prison is. When people get out of Mansi, they tend to stick around in that town. Any clue why? Because everything they could ever desire is there...Drugs, guns, of course skanky ass running the streets and the latest are sexual predators from all over the US. They say the best drugs there come from the cops. I've talked to several there and of course quite a few that have done hard time. Adding time to "if they get caught" is not a concern. They don't give a shit about that in the least. Most times when they pick up a gun after being in jail it’s for 2 primary reasons…..survival (protection) and/or to commit more crimes (although after being in Mansi, usually having a weapon is a crime in and of itself which does not stop them from obtaining it in the first place!). But you wouldn’t know that, now would you? Ever been to a town that’s overrun with criminals (the primary reason we got the fuck out of there!)?

I bartended in that town and yep, seen a lot of shit. It was made a lot worse once the steel mill was taken over by AK Steel and the majority of the workers moved out, allowing for the prison flock to get a better strong hold there. The black market is running just fine (no amount of gun control would make a damn bit of difference) and your nonsense is still nonsense.

As for your stupid schizoid shtick....he (the ass hat in Norway) wasn't diagnosed so who gives a fuck AND he hasn't claimed to be a Satanist. Go peddle your shit somewhere else. You obviously need to get out of your little box.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#58497 - 08/22/11 11:53 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Nyte]
Squiddles Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 17
Loc: California
That Norway shooter was pretty bad - worse than that nut they had down in Arizona this January. The worse thing that can happen after these random massacres is that the government and punditry begin pontificating on how to "prevent" such things in the future.

Suddenly it is not enough to have captured and stopped the killer. No, now we must look for ways to predict who else might do such things - and stop them before they can. People then focus on what the nut talked about, what tools he used, what his tastes were, what he looked like.

The plebes eat this stuff up... and it makes them easier to herd (which is the whole point).
_________________________
~SQUIDDLES

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#58596 - 08/25/11 11:58 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
assault_ninja Offline
Banned--Idiot
stranger


Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 36
Diavolo, 6Satan6Archist6: Black market appears only when there's already a demand for something. I've already explained why there would be little demand for guns.

BTW, Brejvik originally tried getting a gun illegally in Czech republic but was unable to.

6Satan6Archist6: Dude, I don't know in what country mob has better firepower than the police. In Somali, maybe. Generally if you need a gun for your criminal activity, you're doing it wrong.

I'm not in the mob, but I've had a few friends there.;-)

Of course criminals care. If it's a business why take extra risk?

Drug trade is profitable to cops simply because junkies are kinda known for their criminal activities. So, if you know a local drug dealer, he can sometimes help with investigation. I'm not saying those relationships exist always and everywhere, but I know a few placed where they do exist. Prostitution is kind of neutral. Poses no threat to the police. Unlike guns! If there's a guy with a gun in town, do you know who may eventually get shot at?

And why robbing somebody going out of NRA rally is stupid? If properly done it's profitable. I think you don't understand. If somebody doesn't know you have a gun and tries to rob you — it may help you. If somebody positively knows you have one — well, than he'll be prepared for that.

2Nyte: Did I ever said anything about USA? Of course crime elements there would have guns. Everybody has guns there. I'm talking about strict gun control countries, pick one on the map. BTW where did I said that I think he is a satanist?


Edited by Nemesis (08/25/11 02:06 PM)
Edit Reason: User was banned for being a moron.

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#58601 - 08/25/11 12:45 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: assault_ninja]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Mate, do you have any idea about the "underbelly" of society besides what is shown on television?

You keep arguing about shit which reality simply proves to be different. Really man, get out of your bubble and venture in the darker side of society and you'll quickly find out how wrong you are.

I mean seriously, a statement like "if you need a gun for your criminal activity, you're doing it wrong" is simply amazing. I would love to see you execute a robbery without guns.

D.

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#58602 - 08/25/11 12:57 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: assault_ninja]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Black market appears only when there's already a demand for something. I've already explained why there would be little demand for guns.

Did it ever occur to you that people have a public and a non-public face? There is always a demand. Even I can get guns when needed. It's a matter of having connections.
The Black market isn't fixed on one place, it is spread. Sometimes to get the goods it is a neccesity to drive a few miles. Guess you never met the "underworld" ey?

 Quote:
BTW, Brejvik originally tried getting a gun illegally in Czech republic but was unable to.

Considering the size of the US, the Czech republic and Norway are about the same distance from each other as 2 major US cities. But in the end, he managed to get a gun. So your point being?


 Quote:
Dude, I don't know in what country mob has better firepower than the police. In Somali, maybe. Generally if you need a gun for your criminal activity, you're doing it wrong.

Watch the news. In my country there were reports of police stations being attacked with full automatic weapons, vastly overpowering all the available firepower of the police.

 Quote:
Prostitution is kind of neutral. Poses no threat to the police. Unlike guns! If there's a guy with a gun in town, do you know who may eventually get shot at?

Prostitution is far from neutral. It wouldn't be the first time I heard gunshots in the red light district, or even witnessing a gunfight for that matter.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#59244 - 09/19/11 04:45 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Diavolo]
Rivenstar Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 17
Loc: The city of sin.
First, I would like to say how sorry I am for the tragic deaths of these children and add my condolences to all victims of this horrible crime.
That said I would like to add that there is no way that the actions of this idiot could possibly be seen as satanic, for these three reasons:
1. This attack was (for the most part) directed at innocent children, a sure way to alienate support for his cause and create sympathy for his chosen opponents. The founder and former high priest of the C.O.S., Anton LaVey, was repeatedly quoted both in his written work and in his interviews as saying that the harming of children has no place in the C.O.S. or anywhere within contemporary Satanism.
2. The acts were both self-destructive and self-sacrificial. If “self-preservation is the highest law” then Captain Shithead really screwed the pooch on this one. I mean sure, the guy is technically still alive. But what kind of life will it be? All this man has to look forward to are years and years with Bubba behind bars while he and his work are gradually forgotten. This sort of pseudo martyrdom is most certainly un-satanic.
3. The actions in question were undeniably and unforgivably STUPID. This guy was trying to send a message but NOBODY CARES WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY WHEN YOU MAKE A COMPLETE ASS OF YOURSELF. Let’s face it; this guy’s actions were beyond asinine. (Murdering over 60 children, trying to blow up police stations, etc.) He gave up three years of his life planning. His entire future in execution. What did he get for it? A passing glance from the world, and a giant setback for his cause.
FUCK HIM AND FORGET HIM!


Finally, this whole gun control debate reminds me of that off-quoted bit about there being 3 types of lies. You know, 1. Lies, 2. Damn lies and worst of all 3. Statistics. I would like to add that most folks (at least here in the U.S.) who get shot, tend to get shot by their own gun or one belonging to their immediate family. Most guns recovered from criminals (like over 80%) were previously privately owned, legal weapons.
_________________________
I do anything and everything Mr. Stark requires. - Pepper

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#59275 - 09/20/11 04:25 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Rivenstar]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
1. This attack was (for the most part) directed at innocent children, a sure way to alienate support for his cause and create sympathy for his chosen opponents. The founder and former high priest of the C.O.S., Anton LaVey, was repeatedly quoted both in his written work and in his interviews as saying that the harming of children has no place in the C.O.S. or anywhere within contemporary Satanism.

I doubt he was a Satanist let alone cared what ASL had to say. There is no link with the two.
As for his cause, taking action "for the greater good" involves acts whom are considered amoral and pointless by the bigger population. Guess it is something most will never understand.

 Quote:
2. The acts were both self-destructive and self-sacrificial. If “self-preservation is the highest law” then Captain Shithead really screwed the pooch on this one. I mean sure, the guy is technically still alive. But what kind of life will it be? All this man has to look forward to are years and years with Bubba behind bars while he and his work are gradually forgotten. This sort of pseudo martyrdom is most certainly un-satanic.

The event was of such a size that it will not be forgotten within the next 10 years. Enough time to have his work spread and have a footnote in history for the next 2-3 decades to come. His manifest is online and will float around inspiring people who have heard or haven't heard about the events within a decent time span.

 Quote:
3. The actions in question were undeniably and unforgivably STUPID. This guy was trying to send a message but NOBODY CARES WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY WHEN YOU MAKE A COMPLETE ASS OF YOURSELF. Let’s face it; this guy’s actions were beyond asinine. (Murdering over 60 children, trying to blow up police stations, etc.) He gave up three years of his life planning. His entire future in execution. What did he get for it? A passing glance from the world, and a giant setback for his cause.
FUCK HIM AND FORGET HIM!

See previous answers. I doubt he made an ass out of himself. Perhaps media wants you to believe certain things about this case, I for one know some of the claims are downward lies.

As for the victims, how crude it may even sound, I saw interviews with people who managed to survive. The ones being interviewed wore headscarves (indicating to be muslim), teenage scum I generally despise for wearing 2 cm of make-up on their face and looking slightly orange from tanning lotions and the stereotypical guido's from Jersey Shore alike...
I'm beginning to wonder if the killing was THAT bad.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#59411 - 09/23/11 04:37 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dimitri]
Rivenstar Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 17
Loc: The city of sin.
"because you care so very much"-ASL

Quote: "I doubt he was a satanist let alone cared what ASL had to say."

I'm glad you seem to agree with me on this, in fact if we can take this one step forward and simply state that this man was not a Satanist and that his actions couldn't have possibly been influenced by any of the good doctor's teachings. I think we can agree to disagree on the rest. I would like to add though, just because I do not agree with the morality of this man it doesn't mean I can't understand it.

I was here for the L.A. riots and I can remember the fear and confusion it created. I also remember that fear turning to cold hatred as I watched the beating of Reginald Denny. I remember thinking that it could have just as easily been my brother, or for that matter, my mother. And let me tell you, on that night I didn't just think about going rogue and blowing those little fuckers away, I dreamed about it. I even went so far as to load the bullets in my gun.

But in the end, I chose a different path and I can tell you with all honesty that after almost 20 years I've never regretted it. So I guess that's why I'm telling you, Dimitri, for your own good don't idolize this guy and as the guitos would say just faegit about him. (Sorry I know the accent was horrible)

Now, as to the earlier accusations of moderator malfeasance, namely that they were banning members simply for disagreeing with them. You might want to note that in my earlier post I basically contradicted not just one but two moderators (and in my second post on the board to boot) and didn't get so much as a warning. So perhaps if your friends were punished it was in response to some other transgression.
_________________________
I do anything and everything Mr. Stark requires. - Pepper

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#59427 - 09/24/11 02:07 AM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Rivenstar]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
I'm glad you seem to agree with me on this, in fact if we can take this one step forward and simply state that this man was not a Satanist and that his actions couldn't have possibly been influenced by any of the good doctor's teachings.

Was there even a reason to state the opposite or even mention him in terms of Satanism? Get your act straight.

 Quote:
I remember thinking that it could have just as easily been my brother, or for that matter, my mother. And let me tell you, on that night I didn't just think about going rogue and blowing those little fuckers away, I dreamed about it. I even went so far as to load the bullets in my gun.

People tend to become paranoid once faced with stress-situations. I wonder how many can keep their heads cool once faced with real danger.

 Quote:
So I guess that's why I'm telling you, Dimitri, for your own good don't idolize this guy and as the guitos would say just faegit about him. (Sorry I know the accent was horrible)

Idiolize? I expand. I've been active in right politics and even went as far going to meetings of "Voorpost", knew and still know various members of B&H Belgium and various other smaller cells of rightist movements and have even been active for a long time on stormfront. I might have retreated from such "organisations", for personal reasons, but I can still see how some extremist actions are comming from and what their reasoning was when committing them. Thus far in this topic I have been or neutral or argumenting against bullshit information the media has given.

Your very first response was laden with emotionel thoughts, indicated by USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS and the mere construction of your sentences. Don't even try to come across as an intellectual, you showed face and I hit it.


Edited by Dimitri (09/24/11 02:11 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#59486 - 09/25/11 01:50 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Dimitri]
Rivenstar Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 17
Loc: The city of sin.
Finished changing your words Dimitri? Then I guess its my turn.

Ooh! Those mean old capitawized words of Wivenstars sure has little Dimitri's panties in a bunch.(I wonder why?) In fact, I think he's going to take a swing at that mean old Wivenstar. Yup, here he goes and...whiff. Little Dimitri has fallen flat in his little heiny. How very unexpected.

You know, Dimitri, I tried to be nice about this, tried to put you down gently, but you just wouldn't drink the koolaid. So now I'm going to have to shove it down your little skeletal throat.

You know that little voice that's been going on inside your head? That fear that you could easily be replaced by the nigger, the gook, the wop? Well you should listen to it. You're right. Of course, you could just as easily be replaced by one of your aerian brothers just as well. That is because you are defunked, an idealogical throwback posing as a revolutionary.

It's high time you realized there is one race running this earth, that is the human race and we're all part of it. Lest I start to sound like some sort of Christian missionary, there is a culling process going on. Every nation has it's dead wood to burn and here, right now, that dead wood is you.

As to your inane little question, the answer is, we all can. It is a choice we are given to respond properly to the stimulus at hand or find ourselves injured or destroyed. But there I go, coddling the slow kids again.

Last of all, don't try to tell me what side of the fucking clock to play on when your every pathetically defensive posting is laden with grammatical and spelling errors. You don't fucking rate it. I have emotion, I have logic. These are resources for me and I will use them how I will.

So have a nice life, Dimitri, and FUCK YOU VERY MUCH!
_________________________
I do anything and everything Mr. Stark requires. - Pepper

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#59509 - 09/25/11 10:31 PM Re: Oslo 22/7-2011. Never forgive. Never forget. [Re: Rivenstar]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Hey stay on topic and try to be civil.
If you both want to be asswipes take it to pm's......

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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