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#57941 - 08/03/11 07:50 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: William Wright]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Personally I did not see all that much compromise between the two parties. From what I saw the Dems gave in on some of the spending that they wanted while the Repubs still reject the idea that the country needs more tax revenue. For all of the "tea party" influence I find it interesting that they ended up with a package that cut less spending than was originally proposed by congressional leaders.

The "tea party" may have good intentions but they have at no point offered anything other than whining and complaining, they no solutions. Honestly I'm really tired of all the bitching and moaning from these pseudoconstitutionalist fools.

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#57948 - 08/03/11 09:58 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: William Wright]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
The debt limit has been raised some 50+ times in our history as a debtor nation. It had never before been an issue of such political gamesmanship (congrats, Obama, you are weak).

Iím not sure any other president couldíve produced a better result given the political climate in Washington today. The GOP was determined to fight Obama every step of the way. He couldíve played nice and given them what they wanted, which wouldíve made him appear weak to his base, or he couldíve held firm to the principles of his party and appeared weak to the general public who expected him to get a deal passed. In the end he, and Congress, compromised, which had to be done but disappointed both the right and the left. This was just ugly.

Actually Obama could have invoked the 14th Amendment, raised the debt limit by Executive Order, and told the GOP to go fuck itself. In the unlikely event that the House voted to impeach him over this, the Senate would never convict, and he'd be a national hero with a shoe-in reelection.

But what everyone's missing here is that Obama is not a people's President but a big business one, and that explains why he made his usual Ifeelyourpain speeches but ultimately danced to the GOP tune, hanging the Congressional Democrats and the rabble beyond the Beltway out to dry.

If the Democrats had any brains, they'd start looking now for an Obama-replacement in this next Presidential race, because his popular base is disintegrating from disgust [as finally happened to LBJ]. This opens the door to a strong, charismatic Republican messiah-candidate [Remember Ronald Reagan, or even Richard Nixon?]. The Dems' only prayer is that the GOP still can't find a candidate who isn't a bozo. Tough luck for Arnie that he wasn't born here, except that he too now has some problems from unauthorized porking. Amazing how much of human history has been determined by men thinking with the little head instead of the big one.
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#57950 - 08/03/11 11:03 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Well I must disagree with you Michael the Dems best chance isn't going to be replacing Obama in 2012. What they should is try to get a GOP candidate like Michelle Bachmann in a good to win the primary. In others drum some artificial support and crush her in the general. Now I know that's easier said than done and rather unlikely but I none the less think that the best way to beat the Republicans right now is just to let them dig their own graves because the more they talk the less the public tends to like them.
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#57959 - 08/04/11 03:20 AM Super Congress anyone? [Re: Meph9]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

I'm not saying much so I apologize now if it is too short but I usually stay away from this forum as politics are not my cup of tea.

I see nothing here about the new Super Congress that is being put into place while all were distracted worrying about a default that would never happen.

Is it unconstitutional and if it is what did all you voters have to say about it? What are you going to do to change it vote your way out?

"Barack" supporters are you getting the change you wanted or expected?

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#57961 - 08/04/11 07:23 AM Re: Super Congress anyone? [Re: ta2zz]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
"Barack" supporters are you getting the change you wanted or expected?


Not in the least. But that speaks more to my optimistic naivete in '07-'08 than anything else.

The problem is structural insofar as we've ceased being a country based on genuine first principles (arche) and devolved into a heap of legislative garbage. If you visit a university library, odds are they have a separate law library, the sheer size of which should make one's head turn exorcist-style.

Law has ceased being principle and become instead "if A then B, except if C and not-A, then D unless E, provided not-F, in which latter case G unless H, I, and J, which K, otherwise L, or M (if not-F), etc." This is due, in my estimation, to the structure we carried over from Great Britain (mainly common law + precedent) and also the amendable nature of the Constitution itself. Band-Aids and Silly Putty replace genuine paradigm shifts, and so our government will never be the best and brightest, rather the most connected within that very same government - i.e. those who "play ball".

Forget the fact that the system is being gamed against its own best interests, many failed corporations made this blunder as well. Forget the fact that the average American is more concerned with the final vote on American Idol than in the outcome of a POTUS election. And forget the fact that the average American is a slack-jawed hick who worships a homophobic, sexist imaginary friend just because his parents were too stupid to tell him there is no Santa Claus.

Just like a major corporation with no real sense of stockholder ownership (because it's spread too thin), we are being driven to disaster via failed models (trickle down, cut to success) enforced by myopic executives who care more for their quarterly profit numbers than they do for the overall health of their company. After all, they're term-limited, and will get fitted with that "golden parachute" while the rest of the plane goes down in flames.

The primary failure is in the inability to recognize the organic nature of a healthy society/economic model. "Rugged individualism" is a blade that cuts both ways. And right now, it's cutting the midsection and spilling guts all over the place. The only question for me, moving forward, is whether this structural flaw will be realized in time. I'm not Nero, and I don't have a fiddle (lyre), but Rome is burning.

JK
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#57972 - 08/04/11 03:49 PM Re: Super Congress anyone? [Re: ta2zz]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Well this whole "super congress/debt cogress" is really just another so I don't see anything unconstitutional about it. That in addition to the fact that out the 535 or so members of Congress only about 35 actually give a damn about the people they serve I don't see any reason why we should have a couple hundred more idiots in the room when a couple dozen will suffice.
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#57987 - 08/05/11 08:02 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: Autodidact]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Where is TR now that we need him?
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#57998 - 08/06/11 10:15 AM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
If the Democrats had any brains, they'd start looking now for an Obama-replacement in this next Presidential race.

I donít think the Dems finding a replacement for Obama would be a good idea for a number of reasons.

A) For all his problems, Obamaís popularity rating is still close to fifty percent. Not exactly something to brag about, but it suggests that he, like Bill Clinton, is a teflon president that any Republican challenger will have to take very seriously.

B) The elephant (donkey?) in the room Ė heís the first black president. Thatís a huge source of pride to the black community, and most of them (and other minorities, who collectively arenít really a minority anymore) want him to succeed every bit as much as the GOP wants him to fail.

C) Heís an incumbent. Not an advantage, you say? To that I give you three words: George W. Bush.

D) Obama knows how to campaign. Heís a master at delivering the soaring rhetoric that gets crowds fired up. I donít know of any GOP contender, or any other current politician for that matter, who can match his charisma. The closest examples I can think of are Reagan and Clinton, who both got reelected.

E) Who does the GOP even have, anyway? Whoís Obamaís big threat? Mitt Romney? The GOP canít even get excited about him, let alone the rest of the nation. Michelle Bachman? Too much of a religious right-winger for mainstream Americaís taste. Rick Perry? Perhaps. The Texas governor has quietly been gaining support and may emerge as a dark horse, as Obama did four years ago.

F) What Democrat would replace Obama? Hillary? John Edwards? Their pool of electable candidates is even thinner than the GOPís.

Iím not saying that Obamaís a great president or that heís a shoo-in for reelection. Iím just saying that heís the best chance for keeping a Democrat in the White House.
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#58121 - 08/10/11 10:52 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: William Wright]
creativevalue Offline
banned
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Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
There has been some talk of Jerry Brown running for president, although I question if he would run against a Democrat. It may happen after the next Republican (I am not a Republican).

Brown is interesting, He may actually be a qualified candidate. 3 time Gov or Calif., Mayor of Oakland, Attorney General of Calif., and former Presidential candidate. A social liberal and fiscal conservative. He had a budget surplus as governor of California, before Reagan followed and spent Calif, into bankruptcy. Not certain at the moment what his age is, but he has experience.


Edited by creativevalue (08/10/11 10:58 PM)

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#58147 - 08/12/11 11:00 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: creativevalue]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
I have to agree with Will on this the Dems have no one to replace Obama with due to the fact that there's no heavy hitters on that side that are going to be around.
Edwards' career is over
Hilary is leaving politics
Some one like Jerry Brown has no chance of being relavant enough to raise any money

In spite of all that the Obama/Biden is still pretty strong against any Republican. And since it seems that the right is buying to much of its own propaganda(the fact the Bachmann, Gingrich and Herman Cain are candidates is a testament to that fact) things don't look all that good for them

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#58156 - 08/13/11 01:06 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: Meph9]
creativevalue Offline
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Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
I agree with you that Hilary will not want to give up her position in the Obama administration to run against him, and that John Edward's career is over. It is however a sad testimony to our political system that money, not qualifications, dictates who will be President. Jerry Brown is the best qualified candidate. I am not certain if I agree he could not raise the money, I think that a California candidate of his stature may be able to raise the money, but I seriously question if he would run against a sitting Democratic President. Andrew Cuomo does not have the experience, but may make a good running-mate for the NY money.

Obama has not paid down the debt, he has only made it worse. Democratic Presidents have a history of paying down the US debt, and Republicans of increasing the debt, usually with military spending, this worries me. There are a few other things that concern me about a second Obama Administration.

You are right the Republicans are in little better position. I refuse to vote for Romney. His father was the Governor of Michigan who gave the order to shoot civilians with live ammunition that began the Detroit riots of 1967. I do not trust that Romney is not fanatical enough to do even worse. Perry is an Evangelist, if he is elected I will leave the US, continue to earn my doctorate, and be writing from Europe. I don't see anyone else capable of winning the election on the Republican side.

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#58161 - 08/13/11 03:35 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: creativevalue]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
I think you misunnderstad some of what I said

Hillary is leaving politics as for good. Mrs.Clinton has said that her current job is going to be her last in government. Although she would be a strong contender she also hinted that she has no intention of running for the white house again.

On the topic of the presdent and the debt you are correct that Obama has not paid it down, but neither has any other president. As far as the republicans go on that same topic I would say that it is not military spending that has increased the debt it's bringing down revenue. The GOP has this idiotic belief that spending too much is different from having revenue too low.

Mitt Romney is not fanatical, his problem is he has no genuine convictions. Romney is the kind of "multiple choice" candidate who's willing to say anything for some attention.

Rick Perry is an evangelical xtian type who subscribes to the same mythical xtianity mindset that is becoming so prevalent amongst the GOP. People like him attempt to rewrite history to prove that the founding fathers were theocrats who wanted to create some form xtian nation. As such they think that anyone who is not one of them has no right to consider themselves American. Lastly and perhaps most interesting is the fact that they have deluded themselves into believing that the majority of Americans share these beliefs.

I would say that this is the thing about the 2012 elections that presents the most danger for the country. We've already seen how the republican have used the bad economy to ramp up their social engineering policies. I would agree that if someone like that wins that this country is not going to be a great place to be. Hopefully the public will realize that if we want a nation whaere people have equal rights that we can't afford to pick them.

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#58167 - 08/13/11 04:34 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: creativevalue]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: creativevalue
Obama has not paid down the debt, he has only made it worse. Democratic Presidents have a history of paying down the US debt, and Republicans of increasing the debt, usually with military spending, this worries me. There are a few other things that concern me about a second Obama Administration.


As with me. The really fucked up thing, though, is that all of these "insoluble" problems in Washington have rather simple real solutions. Which means that the system is intent on gaming the naive rather than building a country.

Take social security for a second. Simple solution: eliminate the FICA cap. Problem solved. No benefit cuts, no raising the retirement age. Just simply, problem solved.

How about Defense? See Ron Paul, 'nuff said.

Medicare/Medicaid? Keep paying the middle-man, and we'll keep getting diminishing returns in healthcare as a whole. Simple solution: single-payer. Any insurance model works the best when it has the largest base against which to offset risk. In health(care), the only base which makes any sense is the entirety of the citizenry. We can choose not to drive a car, we can't choose not to get sick. And the Hippocratic Oath ensures someone pays in any case, most often, at a needless markup. The bill on my appendectomy was over ten grand. Sure, it saved my life, but I was under the knife for about an hour. Did I have insurance? I forget. But what I do know is that I didn't pay a dime on that shit, and it was over ten years ago.

And then there's the shit we don't DO, that we should be DOING (read: infrastructure). "Common Welfare," and all that Constitutional shit. But hey, we can always afford to subsidize multi-billion dollar multinational corporations with taxpayer $ so CEO's can fly in private jets to their "retreats" filled with prostitutes and drugs.

Speaking of which, all "consensual crimes" need to be legalized ASAP, and taxed. Didn't Capone teach us a damned thing?

It would take me five minutes to balance the Federal Budget. Well, actually, I misspoke. It would take me five minutes to create a surplus in the Federal Budget. And a better country to boot.

JK
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#58171 - 08/13/11 05:08 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: Jason King]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Too bad reality is not actually that simple. The nation faces many large and complex problems whichwill require complex solution. The idea that all the nation's issues can be solved with "common sense solutions" as many republicans lately have been saying is a bit illogical.

How would you solve the actual problem with social security which is the fact that the system is designed for current workers to support retirees and in a few decades we'll have more retirees than workers

When has the country ever benefitted from isolationism? As entertaining as Mr.Paul is he's completely wrong because frankly isolation only gives our enemies the ability to sneak up before stabbing us in the back

What about education otherwise known as that thing nobody ever actually attempts to fix despite the fact that it's vital to our long term economic competitiveness

These problems are not simple. But I will say that congress does make many things much harder than they actually need to be.

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#58173 - 08/13/11 05:30 PM Re: Debt Ceiling [Re: Meph9]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Meph9
Too bad reality is not actually that simple. The nation faces many large and complex problems whichwill require complex solution. The idea that all the nation's issues can be solved with "common sense solutions" as many republicans lately have been saying is a bit illogical.


I'm no Republican.

 Originally Posted By: Meph9
How would you solve the actual problem with social security which is the fact that the system is designed for current workers to support retirees and in a few decades we'll have more retirees than workers


This is a short term (generational) problem, which will disappear after the retirement of the Boomer gen. I gave the solution: eliminate the FICA cap.

 Originally Posted By: Meph9
When has the country ever benefitted from isolationism? As entertaining as Mr.Paul is he's completely wrong because frankly isolation only gives our enemies the ability to sneak up before stabbing us in the back


Au contraire. WE have been our own biggest enemy by our pointless interventionism. The CIA created Al-Quaida, remember? The WMD's that Iraq actually had at one point, guess where those came from? US. Funny story: prior to the first Iraq war, Saddam asked our permission before invading Kuwait. Guess what our ambassador told him? (Hint: it wasn't "no"). Defense is not neo-con nation building. Defense is not Imperialism. It's DEFENSE.

 Originally Posted By: Meph9
What about education otherwise known as that thing nobody ever actually attempts to fix despite the fact that it's vital to our long term economic competitiveness


Sure, education is a big part of my vision for the Federal government (1/3 to be precise). First, teachers' unions need to be crushed. Second, full education needs to be completely underwritten for all citizens (note: the concept of citizenship is very important to my model). Third, teachers need to be incentivized monetarily for producing results, and disincentivized careerwise for consistent failure. There are many models which have proven themselves successful on micro-scales (e.g. Montessori), these need to be driven through requisite competition via citizen demand.

JK

p.s. sure, things are complicated, but not nearly as complicated as it's made to look by the talking heads.
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