Page 3 of 4 <1234>
Topic Options
#58651 - 08/27/11 03:29 AM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
This is how it's always been. After 9/11 everyone knew Muslims were evil. After 7/22 everyone knew the far right were evil. I don't know who's next in line, but you can bet your bottom dollar the media is chomping at the bit to go at them.

Multiculturalism became an issue to talk loudly about following this summer's terrorist acts, and the outcome is that more people will vote, and more people will vote moderate.

Thanks for better insight in multiculturalism and movement against it!

It's right, that I am a bit unofficially in the right wing and now masses think - it is evil! Sometimes with such extremists like Breivik masses, people with herd mentality start to think, that all that are against multiculturalism or the far right are bad, like all Muslims after 9/11 – even formal Muslims, who has cultural heritage or Muslims, who live in secular countries and don’t care much for the pillars of their faith.

It is quite interesting, when happened on 22 July 2011 the bombing of government buildings in Oslo that resulted in eight deaths I read this news in internet and comments of people. 9 from 10 commentators blamed Muslims for it… You are right! When was the mass shooting at a camp of the Workers' Youth League of the Labor Party on the island of Utřya were, where killed ~ 70 people no one blamed Muslims, because news already informed about native Norwegian right-wing extremist - Anders Behring Breivik.

Similar did Hitler, when he wanted to get rid of communists. Göring and Goebbels, with Hitler's approval, then hatched a plan to cause panic by burning the Reichstag building and blaming the Communists. More information can be found in history palace: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/burns.htm ! Hitler even said: “The German people have been soft too long. Every Communist official must be shot. All Communist deputies must be hanged this very night. All friends of the Communists must be locked up.”

Stupid herd of Christianity believes lies about Satanists and Satanism, which was spread in satanic panic and now some new-born evangelists, fundamentalists and other freaks spread about Laveyan Satanism and TSB.

Nothing new is in the world, that’s true! We, Satanists are trained to see through ideology for masses to see real causes.
_________________________
In Sorte Diaboli

Top
#58652 - 08/27/11 03:41 AM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: Latvian]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Personally, I don't mind other cultures, so long as they don't insist on their superiority over others'. People are people, and should live the way they want. It's when people form opinion blocs I start to worry. Herd thinking leads to few good things. As we know, nine out of ten participants in a gang rape think gang rape is good. In my universe, people can believe and think whatever they want, so long as I get to disagree.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

Top
#58654 - 08/27/11 05:11 AM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
Personally, I don't mind other cultures, so long as they don't insist on their superiority over others'. People are people, and should live the way they want. It's when people form opinion blocs I start to worry. Herd thinking leads to few good things. As we know, nine out of ten participants in a gang rape think gang rape is good. In my universe, people can believe and think whatever they want, so long as I get to disagree.
I'm not saying I am as understanding as you are, but I can relate in my own way as I too have personal manners. I don't mind other cultures because I don't care about cultures or anything to do with a sense of identity in the way mundanes do. I just see pottering mundanes that may or may not inconvenience me. I really don't mind anyone insisting on their superiority or imposing anything, it's the fact that I can go to jail for my retaliation that is quite unacceptable. The laws they have created protect them, serves to allow their infantile psychology to play out on the world creating an enormous embarrassment.

In all honesty I really can't understand why Breivik could be bothered to kill those people, I guess it was his enthusiasm that caused me to take notice, otherwise it would have been just another day. I wouldn't go out of my way to warrant that kind of attention to humanity.

Laying in his cell with nothing to do but imagine what could have been of his life, Breivik sees a cockroach scurrying across the cell and he immediately crushes it in disgust. His reality dawning in ugly sobriety. Breivik has an epiphany: “I am confined to four walls for doing the exact same thing.”
_________________________


Top
#58659 - 08/27/11 08:51 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: Hegesias]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
His manifesto suggests that "martyrdom" was his ultimate goal, but he didn't pull through on that one...

I kind of wish Breivik was thrown in a moldy dungeon somewhere, but in all reality he's probably in a standard detainment center. Norway has a reputation for coddling criminals with "luxurious" prisons, but the Norwegian government seems to be stripping off the liberal gloves for this one, seeking to charge him with "crimes against humanity".

In related news, Varg Vikernes put in his two cents on Breivik, criticizing him as a misguided pawn for the Zionist Elite who obviously (duh) are the REAL scapegoats for the world's woes... (but I also have a sneaking suspicion Varg might feel a little bitter towards Breivik for stealing his title as Norway's national boogeyman.)
_________________________
«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#58669 - 08/28/11 11:41 AM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Charging him with "crimes against humanity" is a bit dramatic not? I mean, it's almost putting him on the same level as Milošević or Eichman.

Surely, one has to do a bit more effort to be considered part of that category.

If they prefer to bend the rules in his case, why don't they just do instead of using this sort of excuse.

Top
#58673 - 08/28/11 03:04 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: Diavolo]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Being the liberal that I am, I have to say that as much as it galls me, Breivik should have a fair trial like everyone else. There are laws against terrorism, and those laws are meant to safeguard both the public and the criminal. Those laws are meant as expressions of justice, and shouldn't be subverted at the first hint of a crime we don't like.

Admittedly, some members here think the system is inherently flawed and should be removed completely. That's their prerogative. Personally, I think being diligent in seeing justice carried out in an unbiased fashion is an expression that it works. Even though I have my own ideas about what punishment would fit his particular crime. If the justice system is to be trusted, even just a little, it needs to ensure Breivik has a fair trial, a good defence and due process.

My opinion is that he should either be tortured to death over a period of years or kept in hermetic isolation for the remainder of his days. But it's not my call, and I wasn't the one who lost the most. It's easy for me to accede to the judgement of the courts. Sometimes I'm a little glad this is the case.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

Top
#58674 - 08/28/11 03:27 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
There is no such thing as a fair trial since essentially they judge you based upon your submission or revolt towards the rules of a game they invented.

Now mind you, I understand all the reasoning behind laws and rules but the very reason why there are many problems is our total submission towards these legal systems and its instruments. We still judge and condemn what goes on in our environment but we no longer interfere and this passivity creates the perfect soil for many problems.

Breivik, even when disliking his specific targeting, at least took matters into his own hands, something which might have been unnecessary if the "people" didn't surrender theirs to the government long ago.

Top
#58675 - 08/28/11 03:46 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: Diavolo]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I see what you mean, and I definitely understand rebelling against oppressive systems. The reason I adhere to it in this case - or indeed in other cases - is that once the public smells blood in the water, they need to see a fair process to retain trust in the system that protects them. That this process is a sham - if you are indeed right that no fair trial exists - does not matter to the public at large, so long as they never find out.

So Breivik will be tried, convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment, and the general public will form a consensus that some form of justice has taken place. Granted, public perception will be divided, and interest groups will spring up immediately following the conviction, regardless of the result. These voices will be heard and ignored. Ultimately, all that is to follow is excruciatingly predictable.

The system is not for the perp. It's for the public. Slightly obscenely, it is meant to be a humane sentence so people can feel they're civilized.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

Top
#58676 - 08/28/11 03:57 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The ironic part is that the public wants the system to bring him to justice for a crime the very system has its part in.

Not only is it never about justice, it is simply revenge, but also is the populace crying for justice, the same populace apathetic about what enabled this crime.

Top
#58677 - 08/28/11 04:15 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: Diavolo]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
That depends what qualities we ascribe revenge and justice. Revenge is honest, but detrimental to the fabric of a law-based society, whereas with justice it's often turned on its head. It's the cost of living with herd, I think.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

Top
#58679 - 08/28/11 05:31 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
Revenge is honest, but detrimental...

I find for me it quite useful in practical life. I have to learn and educate myself more and more in satanic stance and not to cling to some side dogmas or opinions... I have to learn - don't give much attention to trends and processes in society, which I don't like, if my activity can bring for me bad results.
Sometimes I feel true reasons to revenge, but I learn to stop and don't go too far, because it can bring me bad consequences and I will realize my true revenge I can destroy all my life.
_________________________
In Sorte Diaboli

Top
#58682 - 08/28/11 06:23 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
All civilizations claim to adhere to some sort of moral and ethical ideal, which they will all too willingly drop for the sake of bringing down the hammer and reinforcing their power. (The CIA's carefully-planned assassination of Usama Bin Laden, for instance...)

That's the way the story goes. So while the modern ideal calls for "democratic justice", I wouldn't be surprised if Breivik goes straight for the noose, figuratively speaking.
_________________________
«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#58683 - 08/28/11 06:42 PM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Sure revenge is honest but revenge is the privilege of them involved, not of those affected, and if they are not willing to execute their revenge themselves, it should be considered forfeited.

The problem of a law-based society is that people freely choose a state of servitude, a submission to their higher powers and as such, render themselves powerless; impotent. They choose to endure and then demand justice to be done in their name. Justice they can't no longer bring themselves.

A honor-based society does not suffer this impotence. Revenge will be executed swiftly. There is no need to invoke a higher power since all are that power. There is no need to endure, to render oneself powerless because a law not their own tells them so. There is only that what has to be done.

Top
#58694 - 08/29/11 02:30 AM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: Diavolo]
a. don Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 60
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Sure revenge is honest but revenge is the privilege of them involved, not of those affected, and if they are not willing to execute their revenge themselves, it should be considered forfeited.


The problem is, in a society, does revenge solve the causes of a violent situation? For example, if you are wielding your revenge against me, how would you be sure that the reasons to suspect of me are not tarnished by your prejudice against me? Would punishing me directly avoid yourself retaliation, say considering if I had allies, or people who sympathize with me? Or in this case, would killing Breivik prevent another incident like this in Europe? Also, how useful can it be to create radicalist martyrs?

Besides, is justice and order obtained necessarily by the implementation of an eye-for-an-eye legal action? Why is it that in most countries where the death penalty is employed the violence rate is really high, and in countries where the death penalty was abolished the violence rate is low?

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo


The problem of a law-based society is that people freely choose a state of servitude, a submission to their higher powers and as such, render themselves powerless; impotent. They choose to endure and then demand justice to be done in their name. Justice they can't no longer bring themselves.

A honor-based society does not suffer this impotence. Revenge will be executed swiftly. There is no need to invoke a higher power since all are that power. There is no need to endure, to render oneself powerless because a law not their own tells them so. There is only that what has to be done.



On what honor is an honor-based society based on? That is, honor is implicit in the implementation of a code of conduct based on certain principles from a given philosophy or point of view. Now you can live in a society where codes of conduct are not written out, being in danger of deficient application towards yourself given if someone were to have a problem with you; or these codes of conduct can be written down.

Now, to put these codified principles in practice, you could do it yourself. But the danger in doing so, is that your actions can be construed as unfairly motivated subjecting yourself and others to perpetual retaliation. Therefore, you and your society can "hire" a social entity aimed towards the implementation of a legal code.

Human evolution has depended on our faculties of reasoning and organizing. Society is organization. Society in itself has evolved in relation to our faculties to reason.

Now it's true that there are retrograde societies where ignorance and/or corruption have brought them to a general state of violence and "illness". Yet in these cases who is responsible for this? Society in itself, which has either directly chosen its legal system or has allowed the circumstances in which such was conceived. But that's a different matter ;\)

The bottom line is that I think you are reducing something that is usually inherently complex. We are where we are for many different reasons, we have evolved from primal local tribes to global massive societies where dealing with problems is not as simple as before.

Top
#58702 - 08/29/11 10:09 AM Re: On the Radicalization of Breivik [Re: a. don]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem in our society is that revenge is solely a matter of the law. Citizens have two options; they either follow the rules or they break them. Even at matters which solely relate to them, i.e. you doing me wrong, they are not allowed to bring their own justice to the matter, unless it doesn't conflict with the law. Which means that if you and I have a problem, we can talk things out between ourselves but we can't do more than this. Everything required beyond this, we have to surrender to the law.

The concern of the law is not to solve the cause of any problem but to judge, and punish if they think it is needed, any result of these problems. If we both have a problem and I beat you up because of it, the law will punish me for beating you up. Which implies that after I am punished, the initial situation did not change at all. Which again explains why offenders, instead of just paying for their crime as the societal mantra goes, are degraded into a separate class of being; criminals. They have to be continuously suppressed exactly because only the result (their act) was punished while the cause (reason) was neglected. The law is not interested in the cause at all.

So no, the punishment of Breivik will not change anything at all, it punishes a result. Whether he will do time in jail, or will be executed if that was an option, are merely trivialities to this.

A honor-based society is one where honor is an integral part of culture. Honor is really not that complicated; it is a matter of respect and responsibility. Respect for others which naturally flows from self-respect and the will to do what is needed which is responsibility. The hard question is not what honor is, but what self-respect is. The differences between people are situated in this self-respect. Their interactions are based upon this self-respect. It is through this self-respect there is recognition.

Now I admit, it is a long road from our current fractured society towards a honor-based society but it is not an as far-fetched idea as many assume. It is already in place in many groups, although tribes might be a more accurate description for these, and problems there are sorted out based upon their code of conduct. But to get there, we might need to abandon the idea we require one law to rule them all. We might need to abandon the idea that we must find this one great compromise that works for everyone.

Maybe we need to allow people to make a choice instead of forcing rules upon them.

Top
Page 3 of 4 <1234>


Moderator:  Woland, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, TV is God, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 1.343 seconds of which 1.31 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.