Page 1 of 2 12>
Topic Options
#58263 - 08/17/11 03:07 AM Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
I live in country, where most of people are atheists and this is for me quite important question. Latvia restored it independent in August of 1991 and from August of 1940 under Soviet occupation. We were part of the biggest atheistic country more than 50 years. Of course during Mikhail Gorbachev’s reforms we had perestroika and glasnost periods we got many sects of Christianity and other religious groups like hare Krishna movement etc and some became brainwashed by religionists, but in general my country is secularly orientated or just formal Christians (3 historical regions are protestants and east part is catholic) and Slavic minorities, who live there belong to east orthodox church. Estonia, our neighborhood country is the most unreligious country of the world (Gallap / Euobserver – 2011). The similar tendencies are in Latvia.

Atheists, who sometimes discus with me, ask me about differences between Satanists and Atheists.

I think that the main difference is in satanic rituals, because Atheist doesn’t have this important emotional experience, which is good described in TSB. I will be thankful to anyone, who can point me other good points in difference between Laveyan Satanists.
_________________________
In Sorte Diaboli

Top
#58268 - 08/17/11 10:57 AM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: Latvian]
Alex Crowley Offline
member


Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 131
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
I get this question from people a lot and I read this explanation somewhere which pretty much covers it:

Atheism = There is no God.
Satanism = I am God.

Top
#58279 - 08/17/11 03:42 PM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: Alex Crowley]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Not really. What this is is just a play on words, a trick of language. The word 'Atheist' is the most clever bit of christian propaganda/apologetics ever devised.

Why you ask? Lacking a belief in something does not a belief system, or world view, make. Do you really think everyone that just so happens to not hold a very specific superstition can be lumped into the same box? That the worlds population can be bifurcated into those with this very specific superstition and those that lack it, and that is somehow meaningful? That is what they tell us, but its bullshit.

How about lumping all the people that do not believe the world rests on the back of a turtle into one group, and label them aturtleists. If you were to sample the vast array of different worldviews held by the worlds population, the overwhelming majority would say the world does not rest on the back of a turtle. Does that mean they hold the same views on the world, the cosmos, themselves? Of course not, and one might say the premise is utterly ridiculous. But really, there is equal evidence of both the turtle on which the earth rests and any given deity, so what is the difference? Where is the distinction?

Only in the amount and direction of rhetoric, and mundanes willing to swallow it. Atheism is not an ISM, not a belief, not a meaningful or coherent categorization.

Satanism is an existent thing, an aligning to the dark, but most importantly, something you DO. Manifesting the antinomian, the heterodox, the iconoclastic. It is praxis, activity. Ones stance on some irrelevant bit of superstition is only important if you either hold or have been mindfucked by that superstition. I like to think anyone of the right raw material to DO Satanism should be smarter than this.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#58283 - 08/17/11 04:29 PM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: Latvian]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
It is difficult to draw hard distinctions between Satanism and Atheism, because while one is not necessarily implicit in the other, neither are mutually exclusive, and there exists some consequential overlap.

Atheism, is a null hypothesis. Atheism the non-acknowledgement or ignorance in regards to the idea of "God". One does not need to accept any tenets or adhere to any certain way of thinking or living in order to be an Atheist. Newborns themselves are Atheists, because they have not been exposed to the concept of divinity or any phenomena to place this label upon. (For the purposes of this discourse, it will not do to explore the various "neo-Atheists" such as Dawkins, whose worldviews are driven by a focus upon anti-religionism and modern empirical science.)

Satanism, on the other hand, is a phenomenon in which one consciously adheres to a way of living and thinking in accordance with their understanding thereof, be it an adversarial approach to life, some esoteric doctrine, simple devil-worship, or a theatric expression of rationalistic egoism.

Satanism, overall, has some concurrence with what is generally called Atheism because it posits (if anything) that the exoteric Judeo-Christian "God" is in error, but beyond that it is not useful to compare and contrast the two, since many Satanists, even those of the LaVeyan bent, have found other uses for the term "God". I would personally define myself as a "panentheist". But such questions are not really relevant to the inner nature of Satanism, which is more of a matter of praxis, as Dan said.


Edited by The Zebu (08/17/11 04:31 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#58289 - 08/18/11 02:56 AM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: The Zebu]
a. don Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 60
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu

Atheism, is a null hypothesis. Atheism the non-acknowledgement or ignorance in regards to the idea of "God". One does not need to accept any tenets or adhere to any certain way of thinking or living in order to be an Atheist. Newborns themselves are Atheists, because they have not been exposed to the concept of divinity or any phenomena to place this label upon. (For the purposes of this discourse, it will not do to explore the various "neo-Atheists" such as Dawkins, whose worldviews are driven by a focus upon anti-religionism and modern empirical science.)


That depends on how you look at it. If we are considering paradigms, I think it is best to approach Atheism according to intent, as one would Satanism as such. It's not a valid comparison if you compare one election's to Satanism and one's "non-election" to Atheism, for example, in this case alluding to new born infants, who could be considered "Atheist" by default.

You should instead consider that if one is Atheist it is because he has chosen to do so, such as you have chosen to be Satanist. In that case, you cannot ignore Dawkins or Hitchens, or Nietzsche (or any author who offers a valid insight as far as rejecting the belief in a God based on science and logic).

Now, as far as the difference between Atheism and Satanism depends on the type of Satanism in question. If it is a LaVeyan type Satanism, in most cases it would be valid to point out that Atheism plays a major role in such: The fact that if there is no God, and morality is completely subjective, than in a way, I could consider myself a "god" in the sense that I accept my human nature and am willing to act based on such inference.

Top
#58290 - 08/18/11 03:09 AM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: The Zebu]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
An Atheist or Satanist may have inhibitions that need to be affirmed, one may feel he is what he is simply by gaining a level of comfort apart from the expected status quo, but I am wondering if anyone else has an acute sense of time passing rapidly. A hollowing sense of a lacking in life? Even when surrounded by mundanes who think I am fantastic. The monotonous absurdity of social norms and the linearity of verbal communication is often enough to stifle the empathy attainable in silence. To push thresholds toward the blackest intrusion into the human psyche, the dark unconsciousness where innate drives culminate, a preoccupation with the propensity of raw nature, the the parts of the human which render civil behaviour a lifeless shell.

Maybe affirm that what is extreme for one may be torturerously understimulating for another.

So I would say there is much confusion abounds word connotations regarding Satanism and Atheism as both could lean toward a departure from religious values. And so both Satanism and Atheism are transitions toward conferring value in life. Transitory nihilism.

Unlike “Passive nihilism”, the illiterate "what's the point?" mentality, “active nihilism”, actual nihilism, actively affirms there is no absolute meaning, no absolute morality, and from that affirmation, from this meaningless backdrop, “personal” meaning comes to clearsight, elevated high.

In this we see that distinctions and similarities co-exist between individual humans whom deduct from the world their own meaning and determine their own values. Personally, only woman is most thrilling; that sacred darkness. And that even a Christian may be something so insignificant a label. Absurd? The form of all we see cannot hide the fact that all men are beasts and that the intellectual mind is an inhibition, a censor serving for self preservation in the monotonous prison of safety we have created?
_________________________


Top
#58299 - 08/18/11 11:45 AM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: a. don]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
If it is a LaVeyan type Satanism, in most cases it would be valid to point out that Atheism plays a major role in such: The fact that if there is no God, and morality is completely subjective, than in a way, I could consider myself a "god" in the sense that I accept my human nature and am willing to act based on such inference.


Even LaVey did not advocate Atheism per se, as the oft-quoted "it is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God, he merely chooses the definition that fits him best" (rough paraphrase)in the Satanic Bible demonstrates.

If you consider yourself a God, (and are willing to defend this unorthodox position with any rhetorical vigour) then you are not an Atheist-- you simply reject conventional definitions of God and posit your own.

Since even TSB-style autotheistic thinking still relies on seeing God in terms of human conduct, I do not personally think it measures up to the gravity demanded by the word "God". The idea of a cosmic monad or Bythos ("first cause", profound depth of reality) is better to my liking.

 Quote:
You should instead consider that if one is Atheist it is because he has chosen to do so, such as you have chosen to be Satanist.


I would argue that Satanism is based more on perspective and empathy, rather than logic and choice. Or at least in my experience.

I do not see much value in idea of Atheism as an ideology in its own right, as advancing a null hypothesis is entirely redundant, as it cannot be proven or disproven. Such "organized Atheism" is also limited to the anthropic definitions of God as laid out by popular religions such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

For instance, many of Dawkin's camp adhere to a novel Pantheist movement centered upon the veneration of the universe (as revealed by modern empirical science, of course) as God. This, of course, is a forfeiting of the term "Atheist" by a mere shift in perspective, not science proper. This is made possible by a much looser theology that does not contradict conventional reason (Similar to the LHP).

In essence, Atheism only presupposes an ontological void in the place of what would be called "God"-- and this void can easily be filled with almost anything, thus making the term "Atheism" unnecessary. What is generally called "Atheism" would be better categorized as scientific apologetics, as nonbelief in divinity is only a tangent.


Edited by The Zebu (08/18/11 11:54 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#58328 - 08/19/11 12:07 AM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: The Zebu]
a. don Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 60
Fair enough. So as far comparing the two (Atheism vs Satanism), one could say that there shouldn't be a comparison between them given that one is a religion (Satanism) and the other just describes a state of being characterized by no faith in any deity and the lack of a rigorous philosophy or doctrine like the latter.

Now, by null hypothesis are you stating that since you cannot "disprove" the idea of a deity, there is one?? Or what is the idea behind such statement?


Edited by a. don (08/19/11 12:12 AM)

Top
#58336 - 08/19/11 01:31 PM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: a. don]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
Now, by null hypothesis are you stating that since you cannot "disprove" the idea of a deity, there is one?? Or what is the idea behind such statement?


I mean that it is quite possible to disprove (or at least cast serious doubt upon) the various theologies that describe God. Based upon this reasoning, is perfectly acceptable for the individual to reject the idea of God entirely, seeing it as a useless categorization.

Or one can retain the phenomenological concept of God, but describe it in a different fashion, as pantheists, panentheists, autotheists, and agnostics have done.

It is the difference between positing, "God is a male creator humanoid who fashioned the world in seven days, and is omnibenevolent and omnipotent", ...compared with different definitions like "The Universe is God" or "The Self is God", which are difficult to disprove, because the Universe and the Self are quite easily ascertainable.


Edited by The Zebu (08/19/11 01:32 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#58340 - 08/19/11 02:58 PM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: The Zebu]
Managor Offline
member


Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 110
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu

I mean that it is quite possible to disprove (or at least cast serious doubt upon) the various theologies that describe God. Based upon this reasoning, is perfectly acceptable for the individual to reject the idea of God entirely, seeing it as a useless categorization.


Serious doubt, yes. Totally disprovable, no. Man is not capable of such feats. We posses neither the will nor way to do such. I do however wish we could truly figure out.

 Quote:
Or one can retain the phenomenological concept of God, but describe it in a different fashion, as pantheists, panentheists, autotheists, and agnostics have done.


I guessing you are talking in the sense of me believing there is a god except 'it' is malevolent, isn't omnipotent, nor omnibenevolent nor perfect? Perfect beings create perfect things, we as man aren't perfect.

 Quote:
It is the difference between positing, "God is a male creator humanoid who fashioned the world in seven days, and is omnibenevolent and omnipotent", ...compared with different definitions like "The Universe is God" or "The Self is God", which are difficult to disprove, because the Universe and the Self are quite easily ascertainable.


Well said.

Top
#58357 - 08/20/11 02:18 AM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: Managor]
a. don Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 60
 Originally Posted By: Managor
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu

I mean that it is quite possible to disprove (or at least cast serious doubt upon) the various theologies that describe God. Based upon this reasoning, is perfectly acceptable for the individual to reject the idea of God entirely, seeing it as a useless categorization.


Serious doubt, yes. Totally disprovable, no. Man is not capable of such feats. We posses neither the will nor way to do such. I do however wish we could truly figure out.



First of all, can you partially prove the existence of a deity?

Second, I think you underestimate humanity a bit. We are capable of measuring the circumference of earth, invent instruments that defy nature's laws such as gravity, go to space, compose symphonies, create breathtaking structures, and invent groundbreaking devices such internal combustion engines, computers, cellphones, and satellites.....We also are keen on observing nature, natural history and human history and the phenomenons behind such and behind our own nature.

I mean, come on, give us some credit before you make a non-falsifiable statement such as that. At least consider that we do have the will to delve into the matter of the existence of god and such.

If man is capable of all this, wouldn't he be capable of inventing his own supernatural fantasy?? And if so, don't you think he is also able to recognize such??





Edited by a. don (08/20/11 02:28 AM)

Top
#58371 - 08/20/11 11:58 AM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: Latvian]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Atheists, who sometimes discus with me, ask me about differences between Satanists and Atheists.

Satanists are adversive in a very distinctive way. Atheism is just a sheep without god. Atheists can still be easily herded by pulling out cards concerning moralities and guilt without mentioning things as "gods" and "spirits".


Edited by Dimitri (08/20/11 11:59 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#58387 - 08/20/11 06:13 PM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: Dimitri]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
One often sees "Atheist sheep" who deify their own ideology as fanatically as any fundamentalist Christian. Those who chant incessantly about "science" and "reason", but have never cracked open a textbook, nor studied logic and rhetoric. Modern Atheism has become more reactionary than rational, and the more organized the movement becomes, the more they come to resemble their avowed religious enemies. We have seen a rise in "Atheist bibles" that provide disparate collections of humanistic and rationalistic texts for nonbelievers to meditate upon, and "Atheist clergy" that aim to represent the faithless alongside other religious leaders such as military chaplains. I suspect soon we will see Atheist un-churches for non-believers to not-worship their not-God.

While many atheists are indeed intelligent and rational individuals, humans as a general species are too stupid for any intellectual standard to become widespread, no matter how well-intended.

Of course, one sees the same thing among certain Satanists too-- people who just don't "get it", and instinctively mimic Christianity in a misguided attempt to compete against it.


Edited by The Zebu (08/20/11 06:29 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#58388 - 08/20/11 07:16 PM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: The Zebu]
Managor Offline
member


Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 110
 Originally Posted By: a. don
 Originally Posted By: Managor

Serious doubt, yes. Totally disprovable, no. Man is not capable of such feats. We posses neither the will nor way to do such. I do however wish we could truly figure out.



First of all, can you partially prove the existence of a deity?

Second, I think you underestimate humanity a bit. We are capable of measuring the circumference of earth, invent instruments that defy nature's laws such as gravity, go to space, compose symphonies, create breathtaking structures, and invent groundbreaking devices such internal combustion engines, computers, cellphones, and satellites.....We also are keen on observing nature, natural history and human history and the phenomenons behind such and behind our own nature.

I mean, come on, give us some credit before you make a non-falsifiable statement such as that. At least consider that we do have the will to delve into the matter of the existence of god and such.

If man is capable of all this, wouldn't he be capable of inventing his own supernatural fantasy?? And if so, don't you think he is also able to recognize such??





Inventing a supernatural fantasy is possible, look at those who worship Cthulu.

And which tools do you suggest we use to disprove such doesn't exist? If we are capable of doing it, and if the Earth has been around for "billions of years", we would have figured out how to do it by now, don't you think?
We do have the will to delve into it, but to fully prove or disprove...No, we don't.

Top
#58389 - 08/20/11 08:39 PM Re: Some distinction between Satanists and Atheists [Re: Managor]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Asking questions like these invoke the age-old "evil genius" or brain-in-a-vat issue. We cannot obtain 100% metaphysical certainty on anything, but people still adhere to logical standards based on the reliability of their knowledge and experiences. It's just the way humans function. It is impossible for a person to go through their day actively doubting and criticizing the reality of every phenomenon you encounter... unless you are David Icke.

It all depends on how far you want to stretch it. You can claim that the biblical Jehovah exists, and that all evidence to the contrary is deliberately manipulated by demons, but by then you've stretched it out so far that it is too ridiculous for most educated people to believe. You can also claim a deity exists as some wishy-washy spiritual "force", and mutter something about archetypes and "the Astral Plane", but then you have brought it down to the same subjectivity as every other hokey supernatural claim.

Again, it's all up to you.



Edited by The Zebu (08/20/11 08:43 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
Page 1 of 2 12>


Moderator:  SkaffenAmtiskaw, fakepropht, TV is God, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.029 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.