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#60546 - 10/29/11 01:54 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: Bloodmoon]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:

My two cents would be to research the Caribbean traditions, there have the history to show for it, and results.


I have always liked Afro-Caribbean and other "folk" approaches to practical magic, in that they are fairly simplistic and free of the labyrinthine trappings one often sees in the occult "scene". Basic sympathetic rituals are both the simplest and the most psychologically impressive form of so-called "lesser magic", in my opinion. Most would-be occultists stumble around the most simplistic of operations, but I have met many practitioners of Palo and Santeria here in Florida, and they pretty much breathe magic, because it is such an integral part of their culture and daily lives. And at first glance it seems like something rather exotic and foreign, but when you look at it closely, they are essentially the same basic principles of ritual found in nearly every society worldwide.
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#60555 - 10/29/11 06:49 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: JMM]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
JMM I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the western ceremonial traditions and pyschology interact ie "magick"

several misconceptions you have:

Wicca is not a form of magick it is a religion that employs ritual magick and so the two(sorcery,faith) should not be mistaken for the same thing(in the ordinary sense not the metaphysical ancient mystery type)

I don't know how vampires or cults wandered in but these things in my opinion are irrelavent

In the case of all occult practice enochian was pulled from the mind of a man not a good. There is no such thing a "forbidden sections" in western occultism, that's like TV. If your opinion on the subject is that it can't be real because it's not like Charmed with the energy bolts, fireballs, etc... you should re-think that position

Next it seems that you are inquiring into which magick is more "powerful" but again this is not television in the real world rituals act on the subconscious whispers deep in the human mind. In other words it is not the kind of rite that does anything it's the psychological influence, rituals receive force from the mind of the person performing it not necessarily from some mystical force. So that means that the enochian system that we are all a little familiar with, the system created by Dee in should not be viewed as some kind of book of shadows anymore than the necronomicon with its fictional tale of the "mad arab"

If you're expecting to find people whisping wands around and saying wingardium leviosa you won't find it in genuine occultism.

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#60557 - 10/29/11 07:09 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: The Zebu]
Bloodmoon Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 8
Loc: West Virginia
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
 Quote:

My two cents would be to research the Caribbean traditions, there have the history to show for it, and results.


I have always liked Afro-Caribbean and other "folk" approaches to practical magic, in that they are fairly simplistic and free of the labyrinthine trappings one often sees in the occult "scene". Basic sympathetic rituals are both the simplest and the most psychologically impressive form of so-called "lesser magic", in my opinion. Most would-be occultists stumble around the most simplistic of operations, but I have met many practitioners of Palo and Santeria here in Florida, and they pretty much breathe magic, because it is such an integral part of their culture and daily lives. And at first glance it seems like something rather exotic and foreign, but when you look at it closely, they are essentially the same basic principles of ritual found in nearly every society worldwide.


A bit off topic, but if a Satanist were to pursue a Caribbean tradition, their best bet would be Kimbanda or Palo Mayombe i.e. no catholic syncretism.

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#60832 - 11/02/11 08:07 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: JMM]
halfchaos Offline
temp ban
pledge


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 57
Loc: ^NY
To understand the truth behind magickal practice, it helps to understand the basic properties behind what such a thing is beyond it's own expression.

"Magick", or "Magic", is just a word. A robe is just a robe. An altar is just a bunch of objects grouped together on a table. What makes these things special? Then too is to ask what sets them apart.

The objects themselves are just a focus for a weak and unimaginative mind. But it is more of a state of mind than it is anything else. A nurse can learn to heal through touch for instance, or a lover can give pleasure over great distances using a similar management of "energy".

If all you are doing is writing a poem and saying it under the light of the moon, you are not going to get any expected results because all you are doing is reciting a poem under the light of the moon.

If you want to ask anything more specific than that then I can try my best if I so desire to reply. Otherwise you are on your own.

Power is for those strong enough to attain it.

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#60834 - 11/02/11 09:11 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: Bloodmoon]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Originally Posted By: Bloodmoon
My two cents would be to research the Caribbean traditions, there have the history to show for it, and results. Though, i'll let you find out for yourself and won't/can't guarantee anything.

Results of what?
If you make a claim I like to have it backed up and not shoven off as "do the research yourself".
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#60858 - 11/02/11 02:27 PM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: Dimitri]
Sorcerer Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 23
I'm somewhat perplexed by the notion that primitive magical traditions such as Voudon are an appealing endeavor for a Satanist -- by which I mean one who seeks power. Looking at societies where such things are prevalent, I see rampant backwardness, poverty and powerlessness. However much they may live and breathe their particular brand of juju, the results fail to impress...
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#60862 - 11/02/11 02:41 PM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: Sorcerer]
FemaleSatan Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 556
Loc: The Dirty South
Each person responds to different stimuli in different ways. If using Voodoo or other "primitive traditions" works for a Satanist why not use them?

I don't "get" why some Satanists use black mass, the Infernal names, Enochian Keys, etc. That doesn't mean the juju of that version of psychodrama is invalid, due to Black Metal teenagers that are rebelling. It just means it doesn't have the intended psychological effect on me
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#60889 - 11/02/11 07:13 PM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: Sorcerer]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:

I'm somewhat perplexed by the notion that primitive magical traditions such as Voudon are an appealing endeavor for a Satanist -- by which I mean one who seeks power.


Diaspora religions are not for everyone. Obviously you won't fit in if you're a hard Atheist with no passion for Afro-Carribean culture.

But if you are interested in the practical study of magic, as many Satanists are, one would benefit from a look into their practices, as there are many concurrences between these phenomena.

Like FS stated, the elements of trad-religion are essentially no different than those of Western occultism. Some practitioners of Vodun/Palo/etc even use grimoires such as the Lemegeton and Grimorium Verum. There's more common ground than you might think.
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#60925 - 11/03/11 12:28 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: Sorcerer]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
And what does the society that practices such a tradition have to do with its "power".

Of course once again I think that is entirely illogical and based around the idea that some magicks are powerful than others. This is a total myth.

What gives you brand of Satanism more power than their juju? What about the golden dawn which of modern american satanic rituals are influenced by and their usage of ancient egyptian myths?

Magick is personal not societal

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#60948 - 11/03/11 01:17 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: Meph9]
Sorcerer Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 23
Well to clarify, I’m referring more to black magic or sorcery – i.e. the art and science of manifesting the Will. I include technology, religion, politics, finance and art as branches of sorcery. So to me there is a strong correlation between a society's sorcery and its power by definition. And I don’t really see your point about the Golden Dawn and ancient Egypt, since the latter was one of the most powerful civilizations in the world for millennia.

Edited by Sorcerer (11/03/11 01:17 AM)

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#60964 - 11/03/11 01:50 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: Meph9]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
I, personally, can only speak from a perspective of practicality. Basic sympathetic rituals, as are common in folk traditions, are much easier to do than performing elaborate banishing rituals, or playing drawn-out games of peek-a-boo with the subconscious ala Chaos Magick. Yet they are usually ignored because they are "too simple".

The Golden Dawn, I think, is actually the root of this problem. They helped start this stereotype that all "magick" must be this elaborate group-ceremonial affair with hours of wand-waving and endless Qabalistic litanies, while spirits visibly appear in terrifying flashes of thunder. This has reached the point of absurdity in some Wiccan circles, where one cannot do so much as take a shit without first casting a circle.

LaVey demystified much of this filler, but I feel he placed too much emphasis on over-dramatization. A common thing I hear from those who practice LaVeyan rituals is that they often get ceremonial "burn-out" because they put too much work into creating a theatrical, earth-shaking atmosphere.... whereas, by simply lighting a novena candle daily for a little while in silent meditation, you can get a more effective result because simple and constant reaffirmation generally works better on the psyche (or Spirits, if you swing that way). Or you can take a few minutes a day to gather fetish materials over the course of a week or so, and before you know it, you've got the ingredients for some old-fashioned nails-n-crossroads juju, but every small action contributed just as much as the outcome.

There is a definite energy to this "style" of magic. My skeptical, postmodern reasoning tells me it's just my meat-chemicals telling my meat-brain things my meat-subconscious is over-interpreting. But I'd be lying if I said it "didn't work".

 Quote:

Magick is personal not societal


I would argue it is both. The individual is intimately linked to the archetypes of the society he lives in... not everyone is crazy enough to be Spare. This is why Satanism still thrives as a current, even though many of us rationally reject Christian-exclusive definitions of the Devil. From my experience, people react more strongly to "traditional" archetypes then they do those gleaned from books or dug up from the ancient past. Egyptian gods, for instance, require more abstract recognition for the modern westerner than Lucifer. One can still create workable systems out of ancient archetypes (or ones made up ourselves), of course, but such will never as visceral as those that are hardwired into our social consciousness.

As I posted in another thread concerning the usage of Set:

 Quote:
There is a certain tendency, I think, with pagans and occultists to go for the most "ancient" gods, because they seem somehow more authentic. But if you go back far enough, everything is a literal blur, and all you have to rely on are pottery shards and hieroglyphs in some forgotten tongue that may be the Romanised name of a local war deity, or it might be the Gallic word for "ass-pirate". Then neopagans write a book about the Ass-Pirate religion which is mostly recycled New-Ageism because you can't make a comprehensive system of metaphysics based on a pottery shard, then it somehow gains currency among hippies and a couple Llewellyn deals later, BAM, you have just made yourself a new god that for all you know, could just actually mean "Ass-Pirate". There is no sense spending so much effort digging around in the past, if you end up filling too many gaps with memes from the present.


Of course, all of this does not touch the issue of Initiatory ritual, which is a whole different horse altogether.


Edited by The Zebu (11/03/11 02:02 AM)
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#60970 - 11/03/11 01:56 AM Re: Majick...spells...really? serious question. [Re: The Zebu]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Zebu, once more you have expressed your ideas lucidly and with intelligence.

It's not the right time of day for me to write a response that would do justice to your last post but I will say this.
It was what a Golden Dawn type magician would call an Inner Planes contact with the Vodou loa which turned me 180 degrees onto the LHP where, eventually I ended up here. \:\)

Sometimes the simplest ways are the best; why look for a dog when you can bark yourself? ;\)
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