Page 3 of 3 <123
Topic Options
#58806 - 09/03/11 12:19 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Wicked Satanist]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3023
 Quote:
It isn't very likely to happen with the population we have and the vastly limited land we have to hide on. You would have to go to a mountain top in colorado somewhere and then you'd still be found by those nature loving idiots who like to hike and climb shit all the time.


Living outside of modern society doesn't involve moving towards the hills or other desolate places. Moving from one place to another and literarly living on things you can find on your way can be pretty easy when being smart.

 Quote:
To pull off a "john doe" identity and literally dissapear is not so easy to do as a lamen. You would have to find someone thats connected and give them some money to fall off the grid.

Your identification card is but a piece of plastic and/or paper. I don't have to pay someone to disappear, I simply throw it away or forget about it. It's fairly easy ;\)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#58810 - 09/03/11 03:10 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think the point in living outside the system is living like a fugitive constantly on the move in fear of being caught. The point in living outside the system is in living outside of it without being bothered by it, which is, as I said, impossible. At least here.

What might be needed is a conscious change in our current culture. The culture we have these days is not a culture that naturally evolved into this consumer culture. It is a deliberately changed culture moving it from a "production based upon need" economy to a "production based upon desire" one.

Even while it does not feel like it to many, we are deliberately manipulated into desiring and consuming products. This change was set into motion around the 30ies and what we ended at these days is a result of this artificial "creation".


Top
#58830 - 09/04/11 09:26 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
Wicked Satanist Offline
member


Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 244
Loc: Michigan
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Even while it does not feel like it to many, we are deliberately manipulated into desiring and consuming products. This change was set into motion around the 30ies and what we ended at these days is a result of this artificial "creation".


You are 100% correct in that manufacturing products is no longer based on supply and demand, but is now based on what they want us to buy. Advertisement has flipped the switch and they now tell us what is new and what to buy, not what we need to survive. They, the corporations, have turned consumerism around and made us the "needy" population to fill their pockets. I see all of the kids and teenagers who instantly run to Apple stores the very day the new iPod or 4g phone comes out... it has nothing to do with "need".
_________________________
Forever in Darkness,
Timothy

Top
#58846 - 09/04/11 05:05 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Wicked Satanist]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
When people bought based upon need, the corporations feared overproduction. Too much stuff being fabricated without enough people actually needing it. So they searched for methods to change our consumer behavior towards desire. It's in that same era advertisement started to change from putting the emphasis on the utility of a product to an emphasis upon the emotional importance of these products.

The importance of the individual was no longer in who he was but in what he put on display. Not surprisingly the same artificial change occurred in fashion where even these days we still find it absolutely normal that our clothing is an expression of our personality.

It is fascinating how most people consider themselves free-willed individuals but have no idea how dependent they truly are.





Top
#58897 - 09/06/11 10:54 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Hegesias]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 172
Loc: High Peak, UK
"..........Please leave your irritability and sensitiveness towards pain at the door"

I have no irritability towards pain in itself; pain can be the greatest of astringents & is sometimes the only thing that can really focus the mind & thoughts, that's why from being a teenager I've boxed & still try to get a couple of rounds in every month at 50; if there is a better way to heighten self discipline I've yet to find it. But that's pain I want to indulge in for a purpose inflicted on the on the self & not on some one else because they might have "dissed" me (if that's the right word).

"Is “personal honour” the same as a need for some kind of abstract “honour”?"

& herein lies the problem in that it's subjective; what you & I consider as honourable are very different things. Where you see personal honour in prison gangs I see a brutal patriarchy upheld by bullying & intimidation.

"..........A man who is a Master by nature is noble in that he has reverence for himself" & I couldn't agree more except that you missed a bit............."& an understanding of those beneath him". Wisdom inspires nobility & inner strength not brute force.

"The will to power is stronger than the will to merely survive."

Did Darwin get it wrong?
_________________________
There but for the Grace of I go I

Top
#58899 - 09/06/11 11:25 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: when7iseleven]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Again, we're not speaking about honor here but about respect.

The Will to Power is the most important drive in all life forces. Darwin, as far as I know, didn't even talk about WtP but it is quite clear to anyone understanding WtP that it is not necessarily submissive towards the will to survive or even urge to reproduce.

The often violent and risky battles between different positions in the animal hierarchy clearly show survival isn't a top priority.

Top
#58905 - 09/06/11 12:03 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: MindFux]
RobertDonohue Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 19
Loc: NY USA
I have to agree with ZEBU's first post. Tribes are a tight knit group of familiar people that share many of the same interests as well as the same issues.

Most tribes help each other survive. Present day it is less physical survival but more of a mental survival that tribes benefit. Few people are suited for living like a recluse (as am I) and have a need for social interaction. I myself feel as though I feed off of certain social circles (tribes).

So from my point of view tribes are necessary for me. My specific tribe is my vehicle, and other tribes are my hunt.

Top
#58998 - 09/09/11 10:18 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: The Zebu]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
[...] one cannot help but question whether or not economic subservience and foreign injustices are really necessary to produce such advances.


Economics has no morality or respect for national borders. Economics (in this context) is only about buying and selling. Things like "economic subservience" and "foreign injustices" are in the realm of government, and the environment its laws set for economics to work in. (There is a fundamental disagreement on whether gov't should be involved in this. My opinion is that gov't is inherently responsible, and pretending that "markets know best in all circumstances" is plain old abdication of responsibility.)

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
What are your ideas of how a practical "neo-tribal" society would function in resistance to the excesses of consumerism?


Consumerism is what the masses want, and the masses are the gov't. I have two ideas that are practical.

One is simply a "virtual" society. Do like the Navaho mentioned early in the thread - integrate, but choose to maintain your family/tribal bonds and culture, and don't actually buy all the junk. There's no need to physically escape, which isn't really possible any more.

The second is ye olde compound - purchase a tract of land and have the tribe move to it. To actually be practical, however, you will still need to have an integration layer with the rest of society. You'll need income to pay property taxes, you'll need to obey the laws of the land. In my mind, this would actually be more of a retreat than a permanently "walled-off" compound, because no matter how you do it, you're still a small tribe surrounded by a much bigger tribe, and humans are still animals - you piss off the big tribe, you get crushed.

The second, in fact, is already the default - rich people have big estates. This is completely in line with will to power, might makes right, and human nature in general.

"Get rich and buy land" is probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's the method that works.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

Top
#59000 - 09/09/11 11:45 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Autodidact]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1631
Loc: Orlando, FL
By injustice and oppression, I also refer to the corporate-military colonialism that the US and western countries advance abroad. I seriously doubt we would even have a finger in the middle-east right now were in not for their vast oil reserves. And not to mention other instances such as the exploitation of African farmland for wealthy western companies while the native farmers starve and get none of the profits. Companies, the government, and economic regulators are all complicit in this-- it is commonly understood that economic "growth" must continue at any cost.

But as you implied, this is all simply the product of human nature. Human history has been a string of one aggressive empire after another, and it's not likely to stop soon.

 Quote:

One is simply a "virtual" society. Do like the Navaho mentioned early in the thread - integrate, but choose to maintain your family/tribal bonds and culture, and don't actually buy all the junk. There's no need to physically escape, which isn't really possible any more.


This is a good point and probably the most viable option. Many social groups already are doing this whether they realize it or not.

 Quote:

"Get rich and buy land" is probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's the method that works.


On the contrary, in some areas you can get farmland quite cheaply, possibly with a little trailer home, so you can grow potatoes and make goat cheese with all your hippie brothers and sisters.

Of course there's still property taxes and the big "dominant tribe" looming outside the commune walls.
_________________________
«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#59006 - 09/09/11 03:03 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: The Zebu]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I seriously doubt we would even have a finger in the middle-east right now were in not for their vast oil reserves.


See my tag-line

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Companies, the government, and economic regulators are all complicit in this-- it is commonly understood that economic "growth" must continue at any cost.


The US gov't, via Congress and the Commerce Clause, has authority for all commerce, legal or illegal, intra- and inter-state, real or potential. The US military is under civilian leadership. Therefore "they" is "us".

This circles back to what I perceive as a driver of your original question, and it comes down to a choice between two difficult paths - put up with your country as-is, even when you disagree with what it does; or attempt to get away somehow.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

Top
#59007 - 09/09/11 04:41 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Autodidact]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1631
Loc: Orlando, FL
Of course, since civilians (including myself) are also complicit in this, because we passively accept such power structures and fund them with our tax dollars. Therefore, one cannot express this conflict as a strictly "us-verus-them" issue.

I think the best current course of action one can take is to reduce dependence on economic consumption, and focus on building personal relationships (through "tribes", groups, and the like). I'm not exactly a revolutionary, and would rather not fool myself into believing that I am.
_________________________
«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#59011 - 09/09/11 07:36 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The options suggested here are of course possible but quite fatalistic. It considers the System of such a nature that only escape is an option.

But there is the option of changing the System itself and bring it to its demise. It's not because things are as they are, we have to accept it as such. By the same right the System can try to force any of us, any of us can try to force the System.

One can retreat or one can confront. Retreat might be the easiest manner but it hardly changes anything.



Top
Page 3 of 3 <123


Moderator:  TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Woland, Asmedious, Fist, Fnord 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.025 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 25 queries. Zlib compression disabled.