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#58723 - 08/30/11 09:46 PM Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society
The Zebu Offline
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The issue was brought up in the Video forum, but I think it deserves its own thread so as to better address the topic.

A. Don posted:

 Quote:
I know about some tribes in the Amazon or back in Africa, I don't think you'd enjoy it there.

If we were to regress, we'd probably end up where we are now in a couple hundred or thousand years. Why not try to resolve this "massive tribe" in which we have evolved?


By "tribalism" is not meant an uncivilized barbarity, but rather a social structure based on close circles of tightly-knit families and comrades. Tribal relationships stand in contrast to a vast, depersonalized "system" that tears apart families and ruins cultural heritage, substituting them instead with "nuclear families" and half-assed consumerism.

I am not a Luddite by any means, but it is blindingly obvious that the capitalist West consumes and produces far beyond its own means and necessity. While modern society does enjoy certain benefits-- such as advances in medicinal sciences-- one cannot help but question whether or not economic subservience and foreign injustices are really necessary to produce such advances.

While I do think that this so-called "system" is an unpreventable by-product of human population growth that has existed in some form or another throughout human history (whether it is dominated by theocracy, feudalism, imperialism, nationalism, consumerism, etc), the human desire for freedom and natural living is also inherent in our nature.

The advantage of a neo-tribal stance is that it does not require some massive political momentum to have relevance or power. A tribe can exist independently, whether it in passive or active opposition to the state/economy. Various anarchist, freegan, sustainibility movements and others are actively pushing the line and vying for independence from the national-capitalist infrastructure.

Such movements demonstrate that one can dramatically reduce their dependence on an abusive hierarchy and fight the influence of conformist social engineering. Others go so far as to advocate going completely "off-grid" and seceding entirely.

What are your ideas of how a practical "neo-tribal" society would function in resistance to the excesses of consumerism?
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#58729 - 08/30/11 11:08 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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You often hear the argument that it is either our civilization or back to the stone-age, as if a collapse of what most consider the height of our societal evolution simultaneously erases everything else. I'm sure the Greek and Romans has the same sort of apocalyptic fears. Western civilization is a continuous process of highs and lows and it is not because something is last in its time-line, it is therefor best.

It is obvious we no longer simply produce to fulfill needs but produce to produce. We have to keep creating new needs to keep this system functional. Everything is based upon consuming and thus everyone needs to consume, needs to be absorbed into the whole. There is no “outside” of this system.

The problem is that people have no choice; you are born into this, forced to its rules and have no option to get out besides killing yourself. Here I simply can not live outside the system since there is no outside the system. There is no place for those being fed up with it all. Getting out implies your paperwork will expire which again implies you being arrested at one point for not having papers which injects you into the system again.

So as a result tribes, or clans, will form within, and in opposition with the system. It's either a total submission or a state of conflict. That's all the choice one has; pro or contra. This of course will eventually lead to an explosive situation in which either the system has to go fully totalitarian or will inevitably collapse. As long as people are not given the choice to create and join independent tribes or clans subject to their own code of conducts, only those two options remain.

No matter how highly people value what we have now, it is in decline and will be gone one day and this will not be a pleasant affair. But then again, no change ever was a pleasant affair.



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#58730 - 08/31/11 01:26 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
a. don Offline
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-Oh, the power of suggestion! ;\) -

This tribal utopia sounds quite appealing. Honestly, it really does. But I criticize tribal life-style maybe not in the sense of "uncivilized barbarity", but rather in that of isolation.

As far as tearing up families, and destroying cultural heritage: I've seen many cases where this generalization doesn't hold true. Maybe there is a large prejudice spread about by the mass-media (ironically) which tends to exaggerate things a bit, or maybe things can be shitty for some: But the will of maintaining a family together, or not lose yourself (as far as cultural identity) is up to the individual and the amount of effort such is willing for such.

Besides, are we defining society as only the big cities? Or in society are we referring to a people or nation with a few basic things in common? For example, in the U.S you have big cities, small towns, suburban neighborhoods etc. I mean, you do have a bit to choose from (given you live in the U.S --I don't).

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#58731 - 08/31/11 03:29 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: a. don]
The Zebu Offline
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It would be tempting to think of a tribal approach as "utopian", but it's not the case at all. Living in small groups would bring its own wealth of problems (especially were it in active opposition to the state), but the entire point is to bring issues down to the level of the immediate individuals, rather than deal with abstracts in the hands of oligarchical institutions.

The idea is not to "isolate" oneself or dismantle the idea of society altogether, but shift the focus away from constructs like the government, the economy, globalism, and other institutions, in favor of cultivating self-sufficiency and an awareness of the immediate environment and human relationships.

This is entirely the decision of those who desire to work towards such relationships, who are compelled to do so because they are not satisfied with the narratives fed to them by the status quo.

 Quote:
But the will of maintaining a family together, or not lose yourself (as far as cultural identity) is up to the individual and the amount of effort such is willing for such.


Exactly. And how far you are willing to carry such independence is only a question of the individual.
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#58732 - 08/31/11 07:56 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: The Zebu]
when7iseleven Offline
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The problem with any tribal approach is not so much external pressures but the pressures exerted from within; as an example the last real clan or tribal based society in the UK were the Highland Clans in Scotland. OK they were eventually smashed by the English State but their history before this time is a history of bitter infighting within each clan & with other clans. Usually, as with all things human, the fall outs were the results of power struggles, an inevitable human condition. The only thing that kept the clans together was all ruling patriarch that meted out justice in ways we would find barbaric. It would be nice to think that we could construct a tribal based society where decisions within each society were consensual but I just don’t think we are made that way. A leader will always emerge, inevitably followed by a contender for the leadership, followed by disagreement & eventual breakup of the tribe or at the very least a change in direction.

Consumerism is also a human condition that is engrained in our DNA. Consistent with archaeological evidence for farming, giving humans more leisure time, are found artefacts purely for decoration & nothing to do with need. Then as now, though in different ways, consumerism was used to subjugate the masses by the few. Then consumer products were used as status symbols to prove that the owner was somehow superior as they had more leisure time, now as telling them what they want will soon be what they need to fill their leisure time.

So I think our society today, while to the individual it may not feel like it, has all the attributes of any tribal system but on a macro scale; whilst any attempt at small family based groups living “off grid” may work for a short time they will, inevitably become a part of the established society.

PS...............do you have Romany in the US?
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#58733 - 08/31/11 09:09 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: when7iseleven]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: when7iseleven
Consumerism is also a human condition that is engrained in our DNA.


The same could be said about religion not? And yet there we are, calling ourselves satanists and taking pride in having removed that out of our mindset.

So the question is, how much of what we consider human nature is beyond control?

D.

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#58735 - 08/31/11 11:23 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
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Indeed, the leaning towards 'tribalism' is perhaps a misnomer in some respects but it's the closest analogy that can be reasonably drawn. It's about the selection of a 'master' in some ways. As it currently stands we find ourselves given a master from birth, spoon fed memetics, concepts, ideas, what it means to be 'good', 'bad', 'evil', 'happy', 'sad', what we are supposed to want and desire and need, all of which is conveniently aligned with the needs that Consumerism has from a population that supports it.

Given the choice between feeding the cancer that is consumerism gone mad, at the expense of the progression of the species, individual responsibility, respect, self accountability, self defense, actual attainment, or living a life with a close bonded community of your own, who work for each other, have their own culture of self sustainability, support, respect, Honour, it's not a hard choice for me.

Naturally many out there will be quite happy to continue 'buying that ipod' and that's up to them. The point is, there are progressive ways of forming a 'tribal' community with associated and more modern rites of passage, traditions and memes, without retreating into the jungle and burying your kids alive because they are born twins. One has to look at what a tribe actually is. It's something that exists outside of a technological construct entirely.

Lets take an example of the Navajo, and before anyone goes on a rant about 'drunk Indians' I was fortunate enough to spend a month on the reservation just outside of Kayenta, and what you have is something remarkable. The generational gap between young and old is enormous, but the young people carry something with them into the technological age. They carry that culture, their traditions, their rites of passage, their 'earned' status of adulthood, with them. Consumerism is as a general rule secondary to them. (Before one invariably brings 'Indian Casinos' into the mix, I'd remind them that in Navajo customs gambling is considered weaksauce and they don't have any Casinos on their reservation (they have one in New Mexico for others) and are generally unwilling to bend their cultural mores internally for consumption). Though that's scarcely relevant.

My point is, they aren't living in the dark ages. There are Navajo lawyers, doctors, shop keeps, workers, police, etc. but the common bond they share isn't one of mutual consumption under the same construct. It's one of real culture and bonds that cannot be broken.

That's a modern 'tribal' culture in many respects. One with a commonality of purpose beyond self enslavement. No 'Dark Ages' required.

MF.

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#58736 - 08/31/11 11:57 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: MindFux]
when7iseleven Offline
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But how would you propose constructing such a tribe from scratch? The Navajo Indians have a long tradition & timeless customs that are the foundations of their society that can & has been passed from generation giving them a unified purpose.

Do you think this could be done from a blank piece of paper?
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#58737 - 08/31/11 12:02 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: when7iseleven]
Diavolo Offline
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You seem to assume this formation of tribes isn't possible but look at the 1%ers as an example.

They successfully formed clans during the last couple of decades.

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#58738 - 08/31/11 12:06 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
when7iseleven Offline
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"So the question is, how much of what we consider human nature is beyond control?"

Probably very little but our belief that we are in control of our own actions are fundamental to the foundations on which human society is built; as Steven Pinker said "Free will is a fictional construction, but it has applications in the real world"
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#58739 - 08/31/11 12:06 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
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D beat me to the punch with the exact example I was going to throw out there. Customs and culture arise from common ideology and geographic necessity to a point. They then become aeonic over generational time.

Some use past instances of culture as a basis, others have built their own, but if they stand the test of time and pass that culture to those who come next then the culture will persist.

So yes it can be done with a blank piece of paper. 1%ers being an example, for another to use a more 'magian' example, the Navy SEALS would be another. They have a tribal culture all of their own which started from 'scratch' not that long ago at all.

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#58740 - 08/31/11 12:08 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
when7iseleven Offline
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Sorry Diavlo...........never heard of the 1%ers & nothing on google; can you enlighten me?
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#58741 - 08/31/11 12:12 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: when7iseleven]
MindFux Offline
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You've never heard of the Hell's Angels? Los Bandieros? Etc.

Motorcycle gangs my man. They call themselves the 1%ers because some idiot once made the comment that 99% of bikers are 'law abiding' so they often roll with a patch that says '1%' on their shoulder for reasons that should be obvious. Lol.

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#58742 - 08/31/11 12:28 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: MindFux]
when7iseleven Offline
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ahhhh the penny drops & no, I've never heard of them being known as 1%ers. I have obvioulsy heard of Hells Angels but I think in the UK Satan Slaves seems to be the preffered nomme de guerre, or certainly was forty years ago when I was a lad.

I know nothing about them so the question is borne out of naievety but do you think these clans will bare the test of time? What is the average age of a clan member?

Where I used to live there was a Harley Davidson convention every August Bank Holiday that used to get four or five hundred bikes each year, all the riders in their chains & leathers donning various satanic regalia & insignia, which on their return home would be exchanged for their pin stripe three piece. Back into the rat race they lept!............purely anecdotal but true.
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#58743 - 08/31/11 01:37 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: when7iseleven]
MindFux Offline
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Well the Hell's Angels were founded in 1947, making them significantly older than globalized Consumerism, which really came to the fore with the advent of widespread telecommunications.

They're also still going strong, which is more than can be said for our current cultural 'economy'.

I'd say they have a shot at it. They're already three generations in and growing. As long as there's the open road, freedom and a way of getting access to it, they'll be around.

MF.

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#58745 - 08/31/11 04:20 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: MindFux]
Diavolo Offline
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To a degree clans or tribes always have been a part of modern society.

Much originated out of poverty in an evolving society not caring about its underclass. So they tribed together and ensured their own survival, following their own codes. Most organized crime came to birth like this and in the modern days, this is where you also find the gangs. It could be argued that even while societies evolved to their all-encompassing forms, clans are the true form while the abstract mass-society we uphold is merely an illusion.


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#58757 - 08/31/11 11:51 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
a. don Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo


The same could be said about religion not? And yet there we are, calling ourselves satanists and taking pride in having removed that out of our mindset.



Actually, Satanism (In LaVey's view) is constructed as a religion: "Herein you will find truth—and fantasy. Each is necessary for the other to exist; but each must be recognized for what it is." (Preface to The Satanic Bible) and most important "It has become necessary for a NEW religion, based on man’s natural instincts, to come forth. THEY have named it. It is called Satanism." (TSB, Some Evidence for a New Satanic Age)

Someone here pointed out that even if one rejects the idea of God, and the concept of religion, sooner or later one's current beliefs gain a "religious function", such as, for example, "the apologetics of science" in Dawkins' case.

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#58760 - 09/01/11 04:38 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
To a degree clans or tribes always have been a part of modern society.

Much originated out of poverty in an evolving society not caring about its underclass. So they tribed together and ensured their own survival, following their own codes. Most organized crime came to birth like this and in the modern days, this is where you also find the gangs. It could be argued that even while societies evolved to their all-encompassing forms, clans are the true form while the abstract mass-society we uphold is merely an illusion.

By looking away from others and concentrating on self overcoming, not to outline any political regime, but rather a severe pathworking for the realisation of individual potential. By recognising that it is what we endure that defines us as men of the earth, this is how we rule the mundane. Repressing whimsical impulses for power in order to achieve greater acquisition of power. In a simple way: In repressing the impulse to visit attentions to compulsion and every whim and fancy, we most deliberately turn the impulse to cruelty inwardly, not only causing the propensity of the Dionysian man to become all the more pervasive, but in doing this, besides smiling inwardly in a way they [utilitarian mundanes] will never understand; the will and mind become stronger!

I began to study the creatures diligently and decided they are not helping themselves; I became disgusted with the sunken eyes of broken apes, pottering in monotonous absurdity, knowing not any different, pleased are they rotting in the shit that they have created blaming phantoms in murmurs of indigence that serve to solidify their precarious humility. I once wished for these sorry sights to have the intelligences for penance and reflection as to what is happening so they would vomit and die from immense emotional trauma. I still wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-realisation.

Again as reverberates through this forum, value and worth and meaning. How immensely frustrating to live such distances apart. This only serves for more determination as the most sobering irony is found in immense misfortune. Satanists laugh joyously in a way they [the indignant] do not understand. We lead by example and leave them [the indignant mundanes] to their own devices!

Now who in their right mind of conscience would want to be comrades with somebody as terrible as me? I would. So I know.

What most stimulated me about The Order of Nine Angles was the talk of testing and ordeals. What this says is of great worth and meaning. Why? Not to solidify some localised self image but to ask: Who would trust another baring the semblance of superiority but without validity of competence? Would we put our determination and hopes in the belly of those who would scatter like mortified lambs? No! We conspire together with those baring the most terrible teeth. It is what we endure that makes us stronger.


Edited by Hegesias (09/01/11 05:14 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
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#58766 - 09/01/11 12:29 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: a. don]
Diavolo Offline
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What or what not Lavey said is of little importance here. What is importance is how much control we can exercise over that which is natural to us. I think more than we realize.

I firmly believe in Will to Power, that drive which is inherent to all life. It's this drive that creates hierarchy and change. But this drive is not beyond control, at least not the direction it takes. The drive is influenced by culture and as such, in a honor-based culture, will focus upon honor. Just like it focuses on righteousness in a culture putting the emphasis upon that. Or on possessions in a material-driven culture.

As such, consumerism is only important in cultures considering it important. Consumerism itself is not ingrained in humans and neither is religion.

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#58767 - 09/01/11 02:19 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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There is a life style that I find very appealing. There are quite a few individuals in the U.S, who have gotten tired of the proverbial rat race and have decided to live as freelly as possible, but without becoming Anarchists.

Many travel around in Motor homes, and vans full time. These vehicles range from empty vans that have been filled with just the basic necessities while some can’t completely let go of the “comforts of home,” and travel in Motor homes that cost more then many houses.

Most of the people who are into this kind of traveling life style have elected to be apart of it, although more and more people are forced into the vagabond way of living due to recent economic problems.

The ones who chose to live this way tend to be individualistic and prefer to live on their own terms. However they don’t completely give up socialization. Several times a year there are get together’s where they arrange to meet up in large groups, share experiences and enjoy each other’s company, and in a sense consider themselves part of a nomadic “tribe,” while at the same time maintaining their individuality.

There is no need to go off the grid completely. These people have valid driver’s licenses and other “necessary” papers. Most of them are quite comfortable living by established rules and tend to keep a low profile. There are a few States in the U.S where a person can establish residency with very few requirements. I think that in South Dakota for example, all that a person has to do is go there, stay in a hotel over night, then take the receipt to the local Motor Vehicle department, along with some form of identification and they can get a South Dakota driving license, although the government in order to “ensure” at least the feeling of security, is making it more and more difficult for individuals to not have a home address, but it is still doable.

As I mentioned earlier I find this way of living very appealing. So much so that the only reason that I keep working at my crappy job is that I’m in the process of trying to save up for a smaller motor home as well as enough money to have as a safety cushion.
Many vagabonds have some kind of an income such as social security (for the older ones) but there are those that also work; some full time and some only occasionally.
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#58768 - 09/01/11 04:34 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Asmedious]
Hegesias Offline
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As there is talk about “off the grid”.

The basic philosophy is anti-government and anti-authority, yet, unfortunately, often devalues the individuals freedom. Unfortunately, many people who are unwilling to be governed are serving life sentences with no possibility of parole and still maintain dignity in prison. Prison gangs teach culture and education directly from members life experience ruling the streets, some of which includes experiences from inside prison, even their own sign language and cultural moral code is taught often with a tattoo codex unique to individual gangs or prisons. With thousands of inmates in the yard, no witnesses will step forward for inmates who get corrected for their dishonourableness by gang members. A man condemned as a criminal by society seems to be regarded as filth no matter what his deeds reflect. Their is much honour in prisons, just as there is the obvious despicableness.
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#58769 - 09/01/11 04:43 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Hegesias]
Meph9 Offline
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Mankind and western ivilazation have not oved past tribalism. Is a nation not just a really large tribe?

All established social categories and communities appeal to humanity's tribalist drive.

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#58770 - 09/01/11 05:35 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Meph9]
Hegesias Offline
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Maybe I lost the plot Meph9 or I'm motivated about the potential application of the ideas being presented here. I would posit that the affirmation as to current politics serving mundanes a purpose and not so much for us is part of the design and cause of the threads direction.

Forming tribes of Left-Path individuals may be more practical after presenting ideas as to synthesise individual means for the practical elements of tribalism rather than to establish that we are already one big tribe. We are not here to fragment the application to a mass political regime to be accepted by mundanes. Not solely denoting that you were. It is simply not in me to express my held views in a sympathetic tone, I'd get writers block or something.

Dionysian intensity breaks down boundaries in civilisation, the triumph of wild nature. Dionysian as the Tribal, “Barbarian” society.

What is the significance of this? It was always the barbarian caste who was the nobler caste.



Edited by Hegesias (09/01/11 05:55 PM)
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#58773 - 09/01/11 07:06 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Hegesias]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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I don’t believe that because someone wants to live “off the grid,” or without government influence will end up in jail for certain.
Granted, they have to be smart about what they do, and even what they don’t do, because “Mundane’s” tend to be greatly threatened by those who are different then they are or those whom they do not understand. That is unless the “unique” individual chooses to cloak themselves in some kind of religious armor which in today’s society can rarely be attacked do to political correctness and the fact that most Mundane’s would rather embrace some insane religious notion that they are unfamiliar with rather then to tolerate a person or a group which does not believe in superstition.

My main experience with prison populations is the crap that I see on the National Geographic chanel so I am not qualified to discuss the “honor” system behind prison walls. However, I am relatively confident in stating that I would not be in favor of getting rid of law enforcement and general civility in favor of having to survive among the type of populations that I see on that show. The idea of sleeping with one eye open and constantly watching my back does not appeal to me.

 Quote:
A man condemned as a criminal by society seems to be regarded as filth no matter what his deeds reflect.


Unfortunately this is quite true. I’ve known some people who made some “mistakes,” and have been branded with the “Felony,” mark and their lives have been pretty much ruined. Being in the health field and having some experience in the Truck driving field, I know for a fact that anyone with a felony on their record would have almost zero chance of entering either one of those fields.
I’ve thought often about what my options would be if I ever had a Felony conviction on my record and the prospects would be grim. I would go as far as to say that at that point the only option that I see is that I would have to find away to survive through more criminal activity, or somehow take the easier route and find away to become the ward of the state, such as through welfare or a disability claim. One of the more unfortunate facts is that it doesn’t take that much to get a Felony charge these days and most prospective employers do not take into consideration if it’s a Class 1 felony or a class 3.

As far as the world is concerned a 17 year old person dating a 16 year old is a felon once the 17 year old turns 18 and continues to want to have a consensual relationship with the person that they have been dating for several years. All it takes is the parent of the minor to want to cause waves and trouble and the 18 year old will be classified pretty much for the rest of their lives in the same category as an ax murderer on parole.

So yes, someone who wishes to live “off the grid,” would be wise to be careful in their actions. Unique individuals make up only a few drops in a sea of mundane’s. However those that walk the Left Hand path generally have one powerful thing in their favor, which is intelligence and their will. Usually they get into trouble when the Will over powers their intelligence.
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#58774 - 09/01/11 07:16 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Asmedious]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't know how it is in the USA As, but here, if you want to live off the grid, completely, you will run into problems.

Everyone that reaches 12 (I think) gets an ID that has to be renewed every 10 years (I think, got to check). If you have no address, you can't get a new ID, so when living off the grid, your ID will expire. The moment it expires, the moment the cops check your ID, you're paperless which will be a problem. No ID and no money qualifies you as a tramp which is considered as breaking the law.

So there is no "outside" the system here.

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#58775 - 09/01/11 09:39 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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They tried awhile back to pass a National ID act in the states but luckily it didn’t go through. Although it would have had its advantages it would have been a real blow to individual freedom.
On the other hand, it is kind of an unwritten law that people should have some kind of identification on them and the cops get suspicious if one doesn’t.
In a sense our driver’s licenses have become a form of national identification since most people do drive cars.


Edited by Asmedious (09/01/11 09:40 PM)
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#58778 - 09/02/11 07:30 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Hegesias]
when7iseleven Offline
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Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 199
Loc: High Peak, UK
There is nothing noble about the father who takes his 16 year old daughter into a UK city street in the middle of the day, makes her kneel on the ground & slits her throat leaving her to die......all in the name of honour.

Those 100 or so men that dragged a 17 year old girl from her house & proceeded to stone her to death, which took over half an hour, were not noble men even if this was done for the sake of honour.

Have you ever ben in prison? Well I can tell you that the idea it's honour that keeps discilpline within prison gangs, or some kind moral code that keeps gang members in line is romantic fantacism. The men at the top of the gangs are probably the hardest, most brutal men you could ever meet who dish out discipline on a whim & whilst they might say they live by a code, they are the writers of it & change it to suit them & only them. Maybe this type of hierarchical regime is necessary in prisons but do not think there's anything honourable going on, it's survival & nothing more.
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#58785 - 09/02/11 05:52 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: when7iseleven]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I think the concept of honor isn't the problem here but self-respect.

But even besides that, and even while I find their traditions clearly retarded at some levels, we should not act too undignified about it. We are appalled when they stone someone for the sake of their honor but at the same time we don't give a rat's ass that people die fabricating our stone-washed jeans.

This also can be regarded as a retarded aspect of culture.


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#58793 - 09/02/11 10:39 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
Wicked Satanist Offline
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Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 244
Loc: Michigan
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I don't know how it is in the USA As, but here, if you want to live off the grid, completely, you will run into problems.


The term "live off the grid" here would imply no physical contact with other people, and certainly no contact with law enforcements, so it would not be considered a crime to do so here in the US.

It isn't very likely to happen with the population we have and the vastly limited land we have to hide on. You would have to go to a mountain top in colorado somewhere and then you'd still be found by those nature loving idiots who like to hike and climb shit all the time.

To pull off a "john doe" identity and literally dissapear is not so easy to do as a lamen. You would have to find someone thats connected and give them some money to fall off the grid. Unless you have the U.S. Marshals hiding you in the whitness protection program, then you can easily change your identity.
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#58796 - 09/03/11 05:21 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: when7iseleven]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Stoning women? Please leave your irritability and sensitiveness towards pain at the door; pity is an infection.

Stoning women is not an Indo-European cultural trend is it now? Instead I hear murmuring tones of that misogyny and sickly effeminacy, the crippled masculinity of a filthy and despicable caste.

Is “personal honour” the same as a need for some kind of abstract “honour”?

A man who is a Master by nature is noble in that he has reverence for himself. Take this as you will but know that the nobler kind confers honour to what he sees in himself. Not a political regime for everyone, but the realisation of individual potential.

The will to power is stronger than the will to merely survive.




Edited by Hegesias (09/03/11 06:20 AM)
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#58806 - 09/03/11 12:19 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Wicked Satanist]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
It isn't very likely to happen with the population we have and the vastly limited land we have to hide on. You would have to go to a mountain top in colorado somewhere and then you'd still be found by those nature loving idiots who like to hike and climb shit all the time.


Living outside of modern society doesn't involve moving towards the hills or other desolate places. Moving from one place to another and literarly living on things you can find on your way can be pretty easy when being smart.

 Quote:
To pull off a "john doe" identity and literally dissapear is not so easy to do as a lamen. You would have to find someone thats connected and give them some money to fall off the grid.

Your identification card is but a piece of plastic and/or paper. I don't have to pay someone to disappear, I simply throw it away or forget about it. It's fairly easy ;\)
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#58810 - 09/03/11 03:10 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think the point in living outside the system is living like a fugitive constantly on the move in fear of being caught. The point in living outside the system is in living outside of it without being bothered by it, which is, as I said, impossible. At least here.

What might be needed is a conscious change in our current culture. The culture we have these days is not a culture that naturally evolved into this consumer culture. It is a deliberately changed culture moving it from a "production based upon need" economy to a "production based upon desire" one.

Even while it does not feel like it to many, we are deliberately manipulated into desiring and consuming products. This change was set into motion around the 30ies and what we ended at these days is a result of this artificial "creation".


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#58830 - 09/04/11 09:26 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Diavolo]
Wicked Satanist Offline
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Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 244
Loc: Michigan
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Even while it does not feel like it to many, we are deliberately manipulated into desiring and consuming products. This change was set into motion around the 30ies and what we ended at these days is a result of this artificial "creation".


You are 100% correct in that manufacturing products is no longer based on supply and demand, but is now based on what they want us to buy. Advertisement has flipped the switch and they now tell us what is new and what to buy, not what we need to survive. They, the corporations, have turned consumerism around and made us the "needy" population to fill their pockets. I see all of the kids and teenagers who instantly run to Apple stores the very day the new iPod or 4g phone comes out... it has nothing to do with "need".
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#58846 - 09/04/11 05:05 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Wicked Satanist]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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When people bought based upon need, the corporations feared overproduction. Too much stuff being fabricated without enough people actually needing it. So they searched for methods to change our consumer behavior towards desire. It's in that same era advertisement started to change from putting the emphasis on the utility of a product to an emphasis upon the emotional importance of these products.

The importance of the individual was no longer in who he was but in what he put on display. Not surprisingly the same artificial change occurred in fashion where even these days we still find it absolutely normal that our clothing is an expression of our personality.

It is fascinating how most people consider themselves free-willed individuals but have no idea how dependent they truly are.





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#58897 - 09/06/11 10:54 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Hegesias]
when7iseleven Offline
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Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 199
Loc: High Peak, UK
"..........Please leave your irritability and sensitiveness towards pain at the door"

I have no irritability towards pain in itself; pain can be the greatest of astringents & is sometimes the only thing that can really focus the mind & thoughts, that's why from being a teenager I've boxed & still try to get a couple of rounds in every month at 50; if there is a better way to heighten self discipline I've yet to find it. But that's pain I want to indulge in for a purpose inflicted on the on the self & not on some one else because they might have "dissed" me (if that's the right word).

"Is “personal honour” the same as a need for some kind of abstract “honour”?"

& herein lies the problem in that it's subjective; what you & I consider as honourable are very different things. Where you see personal honour in prison gangs I see a brutal patriarchy upheld by bullying & intimidation.

"..........A man who is a Master by nature is noble in that he has reverence for himself" & I couldn't agree more except that you missed a bit............."& an understanding of those beneath him". Wisdom inspires nobility & inner strength not brute force.

"The will to power is stronger than the will to merely survive."

Did Darwin get it wrong?
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#58899 - 09/06/11 11:25 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: when7iseleven]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Again, we're not speaking about honor here but about respect.

The Will to Power is the most important drive in all life forces. Darwin, as far as I know, didn't even talk about WtP but it is quite clear to anyone understanding WtP that it is not necessarily submissive towards the will to survive or even urge to reproduce.

The often violent and risky battles between different positions in the animal hierarchy clearly show survival isn't a top priority.

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#58905 - 09/06/11 12:03 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: MindFux]
RobertDonohue Offline
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Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 19
Loc: NY USA
I have to agree with ZEBU's first post. Tribes are a tight knit group of familiar people that share many of the same interests as well as the same issues.

Most tribes help each other survive. Present day it is less physical survival but more of a mental survival that tribes benefit. Few people are suited for living like a recluse (as am I) and have a need for social interaction. I myself feel as though I feed off of certain social circles (tribes).

So from my point of view tribes are necessary for me. My specific tribe is my vehicle, and other tribes are my hunt.

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#58998 - 09/09/11 10:18 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: The Zebu]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
[...] one cannot help but question whether or not economic subservience and foreign injustices are really necessary to produce such advances.


Economics has no morality or respect for national borders. Economics (in this context) is only about buying and selling. Things like "economic subservience" and "foreign injustices" are in the realm of government, and the environment its laws set for economics to work in. (There is a fundamental disagreement on whether gov't should be involved in this. My opinion is that gov't is inherently responsible, and pretending that "markets know best in all circumstances" is plain old abdication of responsibility.)

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
What are your ideas of how a practical "neo-tribal" society would function in resistance to the excesses of consumerism?


Consumerism is what the masses want, and the masses are the gov't. I have two ideas that are practical.

One is simply a "virtual" society. Do like the Navaho mentioned early in the thread - integrate, but choose to maintain your family/tribal bonds and culture, and don't actually buy all the junk. There's no need to physically escape, which isn't really possible any more.

The second is ye olde compound - purchase a tract of land and have the tribe move to it. To actually be practical, however, you will still need to have an integration layer with the rest of society. You'll need income to pay property taxes, you'll need to obey the laws of the land. In my mind, this would actually be more of a retreat than a permanently "walled-off" compound, because no matter how you do it, you're still a small tribe surrounded by a much bigger tribe, and humans are still animals - you piss off the big tribe, you get crushed.

The second, in fact, is already the default - rich people have big estates. This is completely in line with will to power, might makes right, and human nature in general.

"Get rich and buy land" is probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's the method that works.
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#59000 - 09/09/11 11:45 AM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Autodidact]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
By injustice and oppression, I also refer to the corporate-military colonialism that the US and western countries advance abroad. I seriously doubt we would even have a finger in the middle-east right now were in not for their vast oil reserves. And not to mention other instances such as the exploitation of African farmland for wealthy western companies while the native farmers starve and get none of the profits. Companies, the government, and economic regulators are all complicit in this-- it is commonly understood that economic "growth" must continue at any cost.

But as you implied, this is all simply the product of human nature. Human history has been a string of one aggressive empire after another, and it's not likely to stop soon.

 Quote:

One is simply a "virtual" society. Do like the Navaho mentioned early in the thread - integrate, but choose to maintain your family/tribal bonds and culture, and don't actually buy all the junk. There's no need to physically escape, which isn't really possible any more.


This is a good point and probably the most viable option. Many social groups already are doing this whether they realize it or not.

 Quote:

"Get rich and buy land" is probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's the method that works.


On the contrary, in some areas you can get farmland quite cheaply, possibly with a little trailer home, so you can grow potatoes and make goat cheese with all your hippie brothers and sisters.

Of course there's still property taxes and the big "dominant tribe" looming outside the commune walls.
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#59006 - 09/09/11 03:03 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: The Zebu]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I seriously doubt we would even have a finger in the middle-east right now were in not for their vast oil reserves.


See my tag-line

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Companies, the government, and economic regulators are all complicit in this-- it is commonly understood that economic "growth" must continue at any cost.


The US gov't, via Congress and the Commerce Clause, has authority for all commerce, legal or illegal, intra- and inter-state, real or potential. The US military is under civilian leadership. Therefore "they" is "us".

This circles back to what I perceive as a driver of your original question, and it comes down to a choice between two difficult paths - put up with your country as-is, even when you disagree with what it does; or attempt to get away somehow.
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#59007 - 09/09/11 04:41 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: Autodidact]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Of course, since civilians (including myself) are also complicit in this, because we passively accept such power structures and fund them with our tax dollars. Therefore, one cannot express this conflict as a strictly "us-verus-them" issue.

I think the best current course of action one can take is to reduce dependence on economic consumption, and focus on building personal relationships (through "tribes", groups, and the like). I'm not exactly a revolutionary, and would rather not fool myself into believing that I am.
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#59011 - 09/09/11 07:36 PM Re: Tribalism and the Question of Contemporary Society [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The options suggested here are of course possible but quite fatalistic. It considers the System of such a nature that only escape is an option.

But there is the option of changing the System itself and bring it to its demise. It's not because things are as they are, we have to accept it as such. By the same right the System can try to force any of us, any of us can try to force the System.

One can retreat or one can confront. Retreat might be the easiest manner but it hardly changes anything.



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