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#61653 - 11/21/11 07:22 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Loc: New York City
I thought this link was interesting in light of this conversation.

Rule of Lord
The Republican plan to nullify the courts and establish Christian theocracy.
By William Saletan

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...ty_.single.html
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#61655 - 11/22/11 03:07 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Morgan]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Thank you for this post the article is great and really highlights a bit of what I was trying to communicate on this topic.

It's interesting just how little scrutiny things like this get, I mean you've got a bunch of people outright declaring they want to subvert the law and the constitution is ways that your average American probably wouldn't agree... and the response from just about everyone in the press is nothing.

It would seem that what some of our Republican "friends" would like to see happen might in fact put us on a course strictly similar to the one sharia law would take us. So really shouldn't we be righting legislation to stop them?

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#61658 - 11/22/11 09:56 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Morgan]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
...The Republican plan to nullify the courts and establish Christian theocracy...
As I said earlier in this post, ALL religious laws and religious courts must be banned in the U.S. if we want this to be a secular country that allows freedom of religion while still keeping equal protection under the law (for children of religious parents).

Of course Abrahamic religious laws could be a useful tool for enslaving the masses. If it is enforced with that end in mind, then the impact it has upon Satanists could depend on whether we "Are a Satanist in Public," and whether we are of the slaveowner class.

The Bible demands stoning as punishment, not only the Qaran http://muslim-responses.com/Bible_Stoning/Bible_Stoning_



Edited by dust-e sheytoon (11/22/11 10:15 AM)
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#61659 - 11/22/11 10:28 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
FemaleSatan Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 554
Loc: The Dirty South
I don't think writing new legislation to stop them is the solution. There are enough laws on the books. Less government (really none) is more my personal stance.

The US government should uphold the constitution and eliminate laws based on religious mandates.

FS3.0
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#61665 - 11/22/11 02:02 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: FemaleSatan]
AuntFlow Offline
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Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 2
Loc: Califorina, United States of A...
"Unlike Islam, where the higher law and the civil law are the same, in our case, we have civil laws. But our civil laws have to comport with the higher law." - Rick Santorum. So let me get this right, if we follow the "higher law of christian" that would mean polygamy, rape, and murder could be protected under the higher law. These fundamentalist christians really should reevaluate their scripture. Instead of using the gay-marriage and pro-life platforms to gain support.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." - First amendment. Christian values are in complete defiance of what our country values were intended to be.

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#61670 - 11/22/11 04:16 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: AuntFlow]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
Seems like Santorum is laying the groundwork for a realization among more people in the U.S. that Islam and Biblical Christianity are not as different as it commonly portrayed. Santorum's following statement would receive full support from hardliner Muslim clerics in Iran, where abortion is illegal: ďAs long as abortion is legal in this country . . . we will never have rest because that law does not comport with Godís law,Ē said former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/21...=hide&via=blog_

When it comes to women's rights, seems like women were pretty much treated like property in the Bible. At least in Islam, they are recognized as people with some rights of their own. Things were much better for pre-Abrahamic women in Europe. According to The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, by Barbara G. Walker, property in ancient Europe was passed down matrilinearly, and the inquisition was essentially a giant land grab. All the Inquisitors had to do was accuse a woman of witchcraft, in order to seize the family property.

As mentioned by members in posts above, showing the unconstitutionality of religious law is a way to fight it. Seeing as how the Constitution has been severely weakened post 911 I would not rely on this tactic only though. Perhaps one could ponder, what would be a RELIGIOUS equivalent of 911, that could be used to devastate any parts of American law that protect citizens from theocracy or religious totalitarianism? Seems to be that if a political strategist was trying to unify Christianity and Islam in the U.S. while still keeping money flowing to Israel, that the obvious group to "demonize" would be Satanists. If the goal is to enslave lots of people, though, labor organizations would also have to be demonized. So, logically, there would have to be a giant "Satanic Communist" false flag event or situation created, to scare lots of people and herd them.


Edited by dust-e sheytoon (11/22/11 04:50 PM)
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#61839 - 11/25/11 11:22 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: dust-e sheytoon]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
Ohio Inmates Sue Over Meal Preparation. They demand that the meat served to them in prison to come from animals slaughtered according to their religious law. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/03/ohio-muslim-inmates-sue-halal_n_992387.html This could make for an interesting fight versus animal rights activists who already complain about slaughterhouse practices. Halal slaughter practices forbid stunning the animal before it's throat is slit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhabihah#Controversies_on_animal_welfare

Edited by dust-e sheytoon (11/25/11 11:30 PM)
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#61895 - 11/27/11 12:43 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: dust-e sheytoon]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
Male nurse files sex discrimination suit after being fired for treating Muslim women in Michigan. http://news.yahoo.com/nurse-says-fired-over-treating-muslim-women-164322662.html
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Fly for your lives! A great magician comes! He summons armies from the earth itself! ~ ArabianNights

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#61897 - 11/27/11 02:50 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: dust-e sheytoon]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
And the point of these link latent post was?
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#62381 - 12/08/11 06:41 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: dust-e sheytoon]
Apotheosis Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 30
 Originally Posted By: dust-e sheytoon

As mentioned by members in posts above, showing the unconstitutionality of religious law is a way to fight it. Seeing as how the Constitution has been severely weakened post 911 I would not rely on this tactic only though. Perhaps one could ponder, what would be a RELIGIOUS equivalent of 911, that could be used to devastate any parts of American law that protect citizens from theocracy or religious totalitarianism? Seems to be that if a political strategist was trying to unify Christianity and Islam in the U.S. while still keeping money flowing to Israel, that the obvious group to "demonize" would be Satanists. If the goal is to enslave lots of people, though, labor organizations would also have to be demonized. So, logically, there would have to be a giant "Satanic Communist" false flag event or situation created, to scare lots of people and herd them.
The reason that Muslim interests get so much attention is different from the reason the Jewish lobby or the Christian lobby get so much attention. Muslim interests get attention because Muslims will kill you. The fact is, while people have certainly come to fear and dislike Muslims more since 9/11, Islam has contemporaneously become a cultural force to be reckoned with. People are afraid to publish cartoons, they make public apologies, they grant interviews to people who are "offended"... It is the manipulation of "wonder" per LaVey's LBM all the way.

You are right to say we can't rely on the Constitution to guarantee justice. The language of the Constitution will be reinterpreted to mean whatever lawmakers want. They will say, "well obviously the founding fathers would have agreed with THIS exception." They have already done this quite thoroughly. In fact, some of what the Constitution says is so extreme that they must for the sake of law and order. "The freedom of speech shall not be abridged." That is very clear language, but lawmakers and courts have never applied it literally. Our freedom of speech is abridged to the extent that it must be to safeguard commerce, safety, reputations, the truth, intellectual property, etc. etc. etc.

Fortunately, it is in the best interest of lawmakers and judges to exercise their powers within some semblance of reason; the lawmakers because they need reelection, the judges because they are vain.

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#62424 - 12/09/11 11:28 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Apotheosis]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
My Apatheosis what interesting rationale you...

 Quote:
The reason that Muslim interests get so much attention is different from the reason the Jewish lobby or the Christian lobby get so much attention. Muslim interests get attention because Muslims will kill you.


This is a laughable statement considering the facts that people of all social categrories will as you say "kill you" if they find it necessary. So this a nonpoint

Second seeing as how the Catholic Church for example is most certainly a xtian group and that the church has aided and supported social turmoil, the Inquistion and the Crusades.
Whether you meant to express or nnt your logic here seem to be based in the idea that Islam and xtian are polar opposites.
And not to forget about the Jews so look up a group called Massad, they'll you too.

 Quote:
You are right to say we can't rely on the Constitution to guarantee justice. The language of the Constitution will be reinterpreted to mean whatever lawmakers want.


Next I like to clear up this misunderstanding and that means the Constitution of the USA is the supreme law. There is no law without the foundation that is the constitution. So how about we just get back to the constitution instead up coming with new reasoning on how to stop subverting it.

Furthermore politicians and elected leaders do not have the power to simply add amendments without the people's consent. To do otherwise would bring a firestorm of real constitutionalists down on your head you would not get away with without a fight.
Look at Obama care which the supreme court soon be ruling on, deciding, using their legal right to review and challenge laws


 Quote:
In fact, some of what the Constitution says is so extreme that they must for the sake of law and order. "The freedom of speech shall not be abridged." That is very clear language, but lawmakers and courts have never applied it literally. Our freedom of speech is abridged to the extent that it must be to safeguard commerce, safety, reputations, the truth, intellectual property, etc. etc. etc.


And which portions of the constitution were as you it "so extreme"? Well I think we can count the bill of rights out, just a hunch...

I am not sure you understand much of the constitution and its vital guidelines that should be at the root of all laws. Freedom speech means you can't be imprisoned by the state for saying some, you can not be made a political prisoner, it does not mean you get to talk every where you want and have no consequences when that infringes on others rights. There are many rights and expectations that the American people have allowed to taken but freedom of speech is not one. In countries around the world if one talks bad about the government they will be labeled enemies and be dealt with accordingly not for doing any thing but expressing an opinion not endorsed by the state. That is what the founding fathers wanted to here in America.

And once who are the people with significant interest and control over the political system to advocate sharia law? Last time I checked Al Qaeda did not get a vote in the Congress the closest thing we've got is the GOP. That combined by the continuing fear our mundane countrymen has toward the evil muslims(gasp)

 Quote:
Fortunately, it is in the best interest of lawmakers and judges to exercise their powers within some semblance of reason; the lawmakers because they need reelection, the judges because they are vain.


Finally I must once again remind you that the US government was established by "We the people" and thus we the people are the ones with the true power over it. The problem is ignorance and apathy many have been made to believe they are powerless, the peoople have the power and if we choose as a collective to take all those powers that are our birth rights this country will have a more prosperous future

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#62433 - 12/09/11 12:39 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
Apotheosis Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 30
 Originally Posted By: Meph9

This is a laughable statement considering the facts that people of all social categrories will as you say "kill you" if they find it necessary. So this a nonpoint
Forgive me for not spoonfeeding you the obvious differences in motives and frequency. I should have made that explicit.
 Quote:
your logic here seem to be based in the idea that Islam and xtian are polar opposites.
That's not the basis of my logic at all.You should have asked me, instead of jumping to a conclusion about my thinking, if you wanted to be right.
 Quote:
Furthermore politicians and elected leaders do not have the power to simply add amendments without the people's consent. To do otherwise would bring a firestorm of real constitutionalists down on your head you would not get away with without a fight.
Look at Obama care which the supreme court soon be ruling on, deciding, using their legal right to review and challenge laws
Are you saying that you believe universal healthcare will be met with a show of force? The proof will be in the pudding on that one. There may be a few conservative gunmen who kill some liberals. Maybe even a militia headquarters will be raided by the FBI. But I doubt the minutemen are going to stand in the way of the Commander in Chief on this one.
 Quote:
Freedom speech means you can't be imprisoned by the state for saying some, you can not be made a political prisoner, it does not mean you get to talk every where you want and have no consequences when that infringes on others rights.
You have described the law of the land in fair terms. That is not however the literal meaning of the phrase "freedom of speech".

When you are born, before anyone told you what you ought to say, and ought not to say, what did you do? You made a lot of senseless noise. As you grew up, your speech was tempered by the society around you. Your freedom to speak was abridged. If no one's freedom to speak was abridged, we would live in a society characterized by nonsense.

So our freedom of speech has been abridged, in direct negation of the language of the first amendment, and this is a good thing.

What you have accurately described is the judicial interpretation of the first amendment. What I am saying is a disagree with that interpretation. So your reiteration of that interpretation here is not insightful.
 Quote:
In countries around the world if one talks bad about the government they will be labeled enemies and be dealt with accordingly not for doing any thing but expressing an opinion not endorsed by the state. That is what the founding fathers wanted to here in America.
How the hell do you know what the founding fathers wanted, aside from what they wrote? Quote the Constitution, as I have done, and I will hear your opinion about what the founding father's wanted.

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#62446 - 12/09/11 07:01 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
Apotheosis Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 30
Just to clarify a little further on the issue of free speech, I real briefly mentioned that the people around us put limits on our freedom of speech when we are children. The Constitution limits the powers of the Federal government, according to the Constitution, preventing it from abridging our speech. But we are forbidden from shouting fire in crowded theaters. That is an abridgment of our originally free speech, the speech that was also limited by family and society in our youth, or should have been. The Federal government also limits our speech in matters of defamation, false advertisement... I already listed a number of ways in which this originally free speech is limited by the government. I know what the Supreme Court SAYS "freedom of speech" means, but they are interpreting it with the assumption that the founding fathers would have made reasonable exceptions to absolute freedom to speak. I am interpreting this differently, such that freedom of speech refers to our ability to speak.

I'm not assuming that you will care to understand anything that I have said. But someone might.

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#62449 - 12/09/11 08:38 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Apotheosis]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
You're trying to connect the constititution with some higher philsophical law which is not how it wrks. The constitution is the law of the alnd the supreme law there can be no higher considerations so you may have your own little belief but that means nothing to the law.
You might think freedom of speech is the right to say anything at any time any where but this is not the case. That is your belief its got nothing to do with the constitution. If one hells fire in a crowded theater and someone get trampled to death you are not being punished for speaking you would be punished for inciting the chaos that directly lead to this person's death.
Returning to the actual topic of this thresad "sharia law" there will be people who would be up in arms at the notion and that's not goint to cange anytime soon despite what anyone else says.

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#62518 - 12/11/11 09:46 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
Apotheosis Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 30
 Originally Posted By: Meph9
You're trying to connect the constititution with some higher philsophical law which is not how it wrks.

Actually what I was trying to do was divorce the Constitution from convoluted interpretations based on suspected intent and focus on the literal meaning of its language.
 Quote:
you may have your own little belief but that means nothing to the law.
You might think freedom of speech is the right to say anything at any time any where but this is not the case. That is your belief its got nothing to do with the constitution. If one hells fire in a crowded theater and someone get trampled to death you are not being punished for speaking you would be punished for inciting the chaos that directly lead to this person's death.
Returning to the actual topic of this thresad "sharia law" there will be people who would be up in arms at the notion and that's not goint to cange anytime soon despite what anyone else says.
I am originally free to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, but the government abridges that right, because of the effects of that speech, as you rightly pointed out. But the reason for abridging the freedom of speech is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Constitution allows the injunction at all. The Constitution forbids the Federal government from abridging my freedom of speech, without caveat or exception. Thus these two laws are in contradiction. I agree that the judicial interpretation of this law is a reasonable one, just not a literal one. They are essentially saying, "the authors couldn't have meant NO abridgment of free speech. They surely would have made exceptions for free speech that is hazardous to life and limb." But, if you read the Constitution, they did not make any such exceptions. It was a hasty and imperfect document.

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