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#59560 - 09/27/11 05:32 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Don't confuse my lack of islamaphobia for sympathy. There would be the same amount of violence and warfare with or without the koran or any other religion or philosophy.
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#59561 - 09/27/11 06:25 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"There would be the same amount of violence and warfare with or without the koran or any other religion or philosophy."


Are you fucking kidding me?????
Have you no knowledge of history through out the ages?
Have you no knowledge of current events?

This is a beyond ridiculous statement. It shows just how utterly clueless you are about historical events, time lines, and comparative religions and/or philosophy. Tied in with all the historical and political features of the last few thousand years.

Please go read a book about world history offline in real life.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#59572 - 09/27/11 07:30 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Morgan]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
There would be the same amount of violence and warfare with or without the koran or any other religion or philosophy.


Do you think before you type or do you just post any moronic thing that pops into your head? Come back when you actually have a grasp on reality.
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No gods. No masters.

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#59578 - 09/27/11 09:29 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
To play the Devil's advocate (since said Devil seems to have a rather dull tongue at the moment), do you honestly think that if Islam never existed, that the Arab world would simply shrug off Western exploitation, civil strife, and the Israeli presence? Even if Muhammad had died before touching a quill, the Middle East would still be a conservative tribal society that worships Allah-- and still just as resentful at the rest of the world.

I am not saying that ideology has no effect. The religious intensity of Islam undoubtedly amplifies already-existing sentiments. But I do not think so much blame should go on the ideology itself, but instead the actions that cause fanatics to invoke religious justification in the first place.


Edited by The Zebu (09/27/11 09:31 PM)
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#59585 - 09/28/11 12:03 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: The Zebu]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
do you honestly think that if Islam never existed, that the Arab world would simply shrug off Western exploitation, civil strife, and the Israeli presence?


Well there certainly wouldn't be the problem of Islamic fundamentalism.

 Quote:
Even if Muhammad had died before touching a quill, the Middle East would still be a conservative tribal society that worships Allah-- and still just as resentful at the rest of the world.


And you know this how, exactly?

 Quote:
But I do not think so much blame should go on the ideology itself, but instead the actions that cause fanatics to invoke religious justification in the first place.


And I choose to respectfully disagree.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#59586 - 09/28/11 12:30 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Morgan are you so naive as to think that if koran never existed the middle east would be a place without violence and war. The nature of our species is violence no matter what mankind will always find something to fight over. The only way to have zero conflict in human society is to have no humans.

If you were paying attention to pages of history who will notice that there is a subset, religion, tribe, culture or group in the history of humanity that has not had its share of warfare. But if you really wish to believe that the absence of a book would trully make the world a better place keeping believing if that conforts you.

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#59590 - 09/28/11 09:02 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Why the fuck are you twisting my words??????
I was quoting you!!!!!!

Idiot.

Make up your mind. If you can't defend what you said, then just shut the fuck up or admit you were wrong.


Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#59594 - 09/28/11 01:13 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Morgan]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
member


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
Meph9 is off topic. This thread is about Sharia law, which is based not only upon the Quran but also upon the Sunnah. Fiqh jurisprudence, which executes current Sharia law, includes additional secondary sources.

Sharia law not only directly criminalizes Satanism and Sorcery and in some cases punishes them with long prison sentences or death by decapitation (Saudi Arabia) or by hanging (Iran), Sharia law criminalizes many activities and pursuits which Satanists and Sorcerers living in Liberal Western societies enjoy.

Western liberties are part of the attraction for some of the people seeking to immigrate from Islamic countries, and for others immigration may be an opportunity to escape Western invasions of their countries. But keep in mind, many Americans voted for Obama with the hope that he would be less hawkish than his predecessor in the White House. Americans do not seem to be in control of what their leaders do at this point, and it would be unwise to allow American occupation in the Middle East to be exploited as an excuse to let Sharia law take root in the U.S..

Here are some examples of Sharia laws and punishments in Iran, a country which I truly enjoyed visiting, but don't plan to return to any time soon:

Punishment for drinking one beer in public:
50 lashes on the drinker's bare back with a whip

Punishment for apostacy (renouncing Islam):
death by hanging

Punishment for sex outside of marriage:
death by being wrapped tightly in fabric, partly buried in a pit and slowly stoned to death.

Punishment for homosexual sex:
death by hanging

Punishment for killing in self-defense:
death by hanging

Punishment for theft:
amputation of all fingers on the hand

Musicians who perform or distribute their own music without permission from the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance will be arrested and jailed, sometimes in solitary confinement, and the bail is typically the deed to one's home or one's parent's home.

It is illegal for women to sing solo in front of men.

All religions other than Islam and Judaism are persecuted in Iran, but Satanists, Sorcerers, Bahai'is and Sufis are particularly targeted for persecution.


Women must cover their hair, neck, arms, legs and ankles in public (even when it is over 100degrees Fahrenheit!)
Women may not wear tight fitting clothes in public.
Women must wear tops that entend to their knees, over pants in public - or else wear chadors that extend to the ground.
Women must wear minimum amounts of make-up in public.
Women are encouraged to wear black, no matter how hot it is outside, and if they wear light colors, bright colors or patterns in public, they may be harrassed and arrested by morality police.

Men are forbidden to wear shorts in public, except when they are swimming.

A woman's testimony in court is only worth half that of a man's.

A man may have more than one wife, and is no longer required to ask the first wife's permission.

If a couple are divorced, the children automatically go to the father.

Female children receive half as much inheritance as male children.

Abortion is illegal.

Women may not be judges, presidents, clerics or Supreme Leaders.

Dancing in public is illegal.

Women and men who are not related may be arrested for talking to each other in public.

Women and men may neither hold hands nor shake hands in public.

Males and females are separated in school.

It is illegal to videotape or film without permission from the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance. Pornography is illegal.
_________________________
Fly for your lives! A great magician comes! He summons armies from the earth itself! ~ ArabianNights

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#59607 - 09/28/11 10:07 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Morgan]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
That's entertaining because my post contained none of your words. What you don't seem to realize is that is not that I'm saying people ideas never influence violent acts but that all people of all ideologies commit violence thus to single out any one in particular is just a waste of time.

If islam and xtianity and of our world's religions were never created there would be wars between different groups. Peop;e will always find a reason and when they don't see any immediate ones they'll invent reasons. If there was no koran it would some other someone wrote it makes no difference.

Now dusty you have gone off topic and have failed to present any factual statistical information that proves there is any significant movement or trend in America to bring about sharia law. There just is not, there no one with any real amount of power or influence in government working to that end in the US. Add that to the fact that your average America although they may not admit it has some level of islamaphobia and thus would be totally against that idea. So since our government is corrupt but none the less still mostly accountable to the people the sharia law threat is virtually none existent.

Again in terms of theocracy I think your concern would be much more appropriately placed in discussing xtian theocracy aka the talking points of most of today's republican party. These guys are leading a strangely successful campaign to rewrite the nation's history with the lie that the puritans were the founding fathers or that America was founded to be a evangelical religious society. Forget the fact the evangelical didn't exist then thousands of people none the less are convinced that our secular government must changed in a "christian one".

The number people who will agree with putting more xtian into every aspect of our society and government in America > the number people who would advocate for sharia law

my point is not that it is idiotic or backwards or terrible just that it is not popular here in America and is not going to be any time soon

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#59648 - 09/30/11 10:41 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Interesting thread. In my opinion, it boils down to the same two things that most things do: People are responsible for their own actions, and most people usually act and react emotionally.

I'll partially agree with Meph and The Zebu, in that human nature and human society are inherently tribal and violent against perceived threats, internal or external.

I'll disagree with the certainty of the "same without the Koran" scenario, but I'll also disagree with 6's pinning the blame on the book or the religion itself, and with his statement that "Events of the past have nothing to do with things that are happening now."

A book is not an actor. People act. People wrote (and probably rewrote) the book, people read the book, people interpret the book, and people can choose to use the book as justifications for their actions. The book, and its surrounding dogma, are only tools.

At the same time, societal norms are constantly being modified by its members. Societies today are clearly the product of the accretion of their member's actions. People used that particular book throughout its history to shape their society, as religion is an effective method of directing behavior. Would it have been the same with a different book? Who knows?
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#59649 - 09/30/11 11:36 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Autodidact]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
but I'll also disagree with 6's pinning the blame on the book or the religion itself


You can disagree with it if you want. However, there really is no logical way that one can deny that Islam deserves some of the blame. The very fact that people can use the Koran as justification is proof. It's not as if people are using Green Eggs and Ham as their justification. The incitements to violence, the lower status of women etc. - these things can be found in the Koran.
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No gods. No masters.

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#59652 - 09/30/11 12:15 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
The Koran is a MacGuffin. It was written by a man - blame Mohammed. It's been interpreted by centuries of holy men - blame them. It's used by some as justification for actions - blame the perpetrators. Islamic society accepts and implements it at face value - blame the people in that society.

The "Islam" in "Islam deserves some of the blame" is people. If that's really what you meant, then we agree. If you literally meant the book itself, that's as useful as blaming Chernobyl on Democritus's writings.

As for Green Eggs and Ham, well, I would not, could not, with a goat


Edited by Autodidact (09/30/11 12:15 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#59655 - 09/30/11 01:05 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Autodidact]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Well naturally I meant the people as it is people who wrote the book and people who make up the religion. Addendum: people who are stupid enough to believe in Islam are to blame.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#59686 - 10/01/11 09:39 PM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
"You can disagree with it if you want. However, there really is no logical way that one can deny that Islam deserves some of the blame."

People can use any thing in the world they want to try and justify their actions, someone could use this forum to justify a violent act if they wished. But would that mean that you and I are really part of the problem? No. People control their own actions and thus they can claim any justification they want so it means nothing.

Take guns and warfare for example. People cause war and use guns in the prosecution of said wars. However if we removed all guns from the world could that stop all war? No, it might have a slight effect for a period of time but in the grand scheme of things nothing will really have changed, we will still have war. The koran is the same situation.

Who's to say in a few years people won't be trying to use green eggs and ham as justification? But in reality this has more to do with the people than the story.

But again who out there of any real importance is advocating for sharia law in the US?
Answer=nobody

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#59699 - 10/02/11 11:17 AM Re: Panel: Is Islamic Sharia Law Coming to America? [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
People can use any thing in the world they want to try and justify their actions, someone could use this forum to justify a violent act if they wished. But would that mean that you and I are really part of the problem?


We aren't mandating the execution of all who disagree with us. There is a big difference between this forum and the Koran.

 Quote:
Take guns and warfare for example. People cause war and use guns in the prosecution of said wars. However if we removed all guns from the world could that stop all war? No, it might have a slight effect for a period of time but in the grand scheme of things nothing will really have changed, we will still have war. The koran is the same situation.


What is your point? I've never said anything about "removing the Koran". Yes, there would still be violence without Islam. That doesn't mean that Islam isn't responsible for its own share. Nor does it take away from the fact that this violence is part and parcel to their religion.

 Quote:
Who's to say in a few years people won't be trying to use green eggs and ham as justification? But in reality this has more to do with the people than the story.


I doubt these people would be causing all these problems if they weren't Muslim. It is more than just the people. I've heard of no Atheists from the middle east blowing themselves up in crowded places.

 Quote:
But again who out there of any real importance is advocating for sharia law in the US?
Answer=nobody


Apologist and whiny religious tolerance types like yourself are certainly paving the way for it.
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