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#5986 - 03/20/08 10:02 AM Lolicon Illegal?!
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
This is something I feel quite strongly about.

Recently there have been multiple campaigns against lolicon, particually in USA and Australia (and as we have quite the australian member-base here I would like opinions from them if possible). The current campaigns are to make it illegal and in some cases they want to put a 10 year prison sentence on it.

So, for those who don't know. What is "lolicon"?
Lolicon is a form of hentai, or cartoon pornography, originating from Japan that depicts young girls under the age of 14. Now, this is quite an aquired taste, as are most fetishes. First of all you would need to be attracted to animé/manga style drawing, second you would need to be attracted to underaged girls. So as you can see, this is very much a fringe fetish.

Now, current groups are trying to peg this as child porn, and one guy has already gone to prison for this. An Australian living in USA. As of last year lolicon was made illegal in USA and Australia and they are attempting to make it illegal in UK and Sweeden next.

I am personally outraged. Child porn is illegal because the child is being exploited, which I agree with whole-heartedly. Real child porn is sick exploitation of young children and quite frequently it's full on rape. It is a traumatic experience that will stay with the child for years. I believe my opinion on this subject is considered considering my experiences. HOWEVER, lolicon is nothing but a drawing. You cannot exploit a drawing, it is not a real person, it's simply art and nothing more. Secondly how can you decern the age of a fucking drawing. If I draw someone who looks 12 and say she's 18, she's 18. Why? Because I drew her, it's my drawing, she doesn't really exist.

My argument is simply to treat people who enjoy lolicon as child molesterers is wrong. It's entirely unjust to pass the same sentence on someone who has a drawing on their computer as you would someone who has raped a school girl. It outrages me at the injustice.

Even on a cultural level it doesn't make sense. There are many Japanese films and animé in which 15 year olds have sex, and it's legitimate storyline, not just porn. Why? Because age of concent in Japan is 14. That's perfectly legal there. It's not some evil shit, it's just their culture and having spoken to some very intelligent and mature 14 year olds there is reason to allow such things, but then I know 19 year olds that are mentally and emotionally ill-prepared for sex.

Put simply, this ban is out of hand. It's banning artistic expression, even if people do think it's seedy porn. It means something to someone, they enjoy it, and it's a fucking drawing. It hurts no-one so it shouldn't be illegal. If anything it provides an outlet for the frustration many pedophiles must feel daily, meaning they can control themselves better around real children.

What do other people think. Should this be illegal?
Remember things shouldn't be illegal because you don't like them or because its "sick and disgusting", this is all about civil liberties. I don't like scat porn, rap or oysters. I don't want them illegal so give it some thought before answering.

Here is a link to a PDF of the "Prosecutorial Remedies and Other Tools to end the Exploitation of Children Today Act of 2003" -
http://judiciary.senate.gov/special/S151CONF.pdf
This has been passed already.

Here is a link to a BBC news story concerning the subject -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6175441.stm

Please give me your opinions.
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#6047 - 03/20/08 09:29 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Well, i've never even heard of lolicon. At first I thought you were talking about the LOL Icon, like the abbreviated Laughing Out Loud icon we text, and i was thinking how dumb it was for people to want to put people in prison for 10 years for typing it? Thats fucking overkill.

Your right TC just because I think its sick, doesn't mean I have any right to force my views on others and make them live it.

I think it should be legal. This way those creeps that do like it can have some way to vent their sexual thing for children, like masturbating to cartoon kiddy porn, instead of going out and doing it...

But where will it stop? Lolicon porn sites... Lolicon fonesex lines... its cartoons!
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#6051 - 03/20/08 09:39 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
rob_church Offline
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Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
i fully agree to each his own this is hurting no one and just beacuse it is not somes one fetish seems ridicoulus that they would try to outlaw sutch a thing.now what will the pedophiles do they will have no release and will act on thier impulese insted of geting their fix with a drawing.it is just fucked how so many people cant see the repercutions of forcing their moral taboos on others but this is the way of the world sadley

beacuse i dont like it you must not either and if you do i will hunt ,hurt and cage you for it.what a mentality for shame.
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#6058 - 03/20/08 10:05 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: rob_church]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
I have a question: since the manufacturing of artificial human companions is something like a Satanic Objective... would making and selling child sex dolls be acceptable and legal?
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#6061 - 03/20/08 10:17 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
So am I going to have to burn, hide, then wipe my hard drive of all the hentai I have on my computer? I have almost the entire Cool Devices series downloaded, plus random clips.

Bullshit.
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#6063 - 03/20/08 10:32 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
personally see no problem with that it would give an even better vent as you said kayla. dont they make them now even? i remeber a while ago some one was talking about how real doll was making a child doll but did not have the sex side of it?
that would be the next step but our socitey will have to change quite a bit befor that happens and in the meantime thouse that have the impuses will go for the real thing.

all beacuse of taboos if they had a safe outlet for their impulse not just pedophiles but rapist,ect.. their would be alot less violence sexually but when soictey supresses these impuses it grows .supresstion creates monsters even with out a doll ,if the world where not so hung up on taboos and some one could tell their partner i want to rape some one would you roleplay for me or could you dress up like a 12 year old school girl it would get it out of their system i belive and that attack would not happen but the world need to change alot for that to happen and i doubt it ever will .not many people agree with me on this point but so be it i think no taboos would create a safer world.
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#6064 - 03/20/08 10:40 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: rob_church]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: rob_church
personally see no problem with that it would give an even better vent as you said kayla. dont they make them now even? i remeber a while ago some one was talking about how real doll was making a child doll but did not have the sex side of it?
that would be the next step but our socitey will have to change quite a bit befor that happens and in the meantime thouse that have the impuses will go for the real thing.

all beacuse of taboos if they had a safe outlet for their impulse not just pedophiles but rapist,ect.. their would be alot less violence sexually but when soictey supresses these impuses it grows .supresstion creates monsters even with out a doll ,if the world where not so hung up on taboos and some one could tell their partner i want to rape some one would you roleplay for me or could you dress up like a 12 year old school girl it would get it out of their system i belive and that attack would not happen but the world need to change alot for that to happen and i doubt it ever will .not many people agree with me on this point but so be it i think no taboos would create a safer world.

I agree with you on all points. All we have to do is take a look at places where things like sexuality is repressed or has been repressed by taboos and religions like America... the middle east... then compare it to more liberal places like Europe. I'm not saying that Europe would be open to lolicons or child sex dolls; but their more open minded about drugs and sex... on the other hand we Americans have this stupid 'ostrich head in the sand' mentality with sex...
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#6077 - 03/21/08 03:54 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Nemesis]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
So am I going to have to burn, hide, then wipe my hard drive of all the hentai I have on my computer? I have almost the entire Cool Devices series downloaded, plus random clips.

Bullshit.


Not all hentai, only lolicon, so only if the charactersare 14 years old or younger. The thing is, most of the characters don't have ages, which means it's up to the arresting officers and jury to decide if she looks underage.

Also on the subject of the child sex doll, they already have them in Japan and Russia although they are considered seedy and obscene in Russia.
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#6078 - 03/21/08 04:32 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Yes I would have to agree with you all. As long as no children are being abused, and seeing as they are cartoons it is highly unlikely, then it's fine by me.

The only possible problem that I could see with it (and this is just for arguments sake) would be if the cartoon kiddies were giving the impression that they wanted to be forced in any way. That might, and I only say might, make some men think that real kids also feel this way and maybe then move on to a real live subject.

But, men being physiologically made to respond to pictures, I can actually see this as a very good way for pedophiles to get to release some of their sexual frustrations without involving a real child. Same goes for the child dolls. I wonder how many actual children could be saved the horror of rape and abuse if these types of alternative were made available?

Maybe someone who wanted that badly to have this type of arousal available to them, should have to register and receive councilling of some sort (so they don't prey on real children, not so much to cure them), to get a license for it? Probably ridiculous and a far fetched idea, but better than prohibition.

Zeph
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#6079 - 03/21/08 04:59 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
morgoth Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Zeph, T.C.
I think i can see where you are coming from, but as a father of a 10 yr old girl, I would horribly kill anyone who touched her.
The problem I have with this is that I feel that some one who has these feelings/fantasies about girls of this age may have a wharped sense of reality, and the fact that they are Hentai cartoons means that the cartoons themselves may be a stepping stone to the real thing.
My opinions only as a father and admirer of women

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#6081 - 03/21/08 05:26 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: morgoth]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I can understand that morgoth, but it started in Japan, where more than half the TV, including prime time soaps and action films are actually animé because it's cheaper and Japan has limited movie sets. In Japan cartoons are not just for kids.

This aside, I know a guy who likes Hentai, and he's open about it. I also happen to know he likes Lolicon although he never told anyone, I accidentally found it on his computer.
I would trust this guy with my little sister. He is a perfectly nice guy who wouldn't hurt anyone. His preferences in porn don't mean a thing to me. But then I'm more liberal minded than most people, and I understand why he hides this.
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#6082 - 03/21/08 05:40 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
Once again New Labour seems intent on appeasing the moral majority by attempting to legislate against thought crime. Note also the proposed ban on "extreme pornography". No, not videos of people fucking whilst jumping out of aeroplanes (ho-ho), the UK Governement defines "extreme pornography" as follows:

  • an act which threatens or appears to threaten a person’s life
  • an act which results in or appears to result (or be likely to result) in serious injury to a person’s anus, breasts or genitals
  • an act which involves or appears to involve sexual interference with a human corpse
  • a person performing or appearing to perform an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal
The important word here is "appears" -- that's right, New Labour are (potentially) legislating against works of fiction. The difference between harmless, legal horror films like Friday the 13th, and evil, depraved "extreme pornography" is that the latter "appears to have been produced solely or principally for the purpose of sexual arousal". So in other words, violent horror films are okay, so long as they don't give you an erection.

The real worry here, along with the whole "lolicon" debacle is how ill-defined the boundaries are. Theoretically at least I could be prosecuted simply for drawing an image on a piece of paper, if that image contains something the goverment finds objectionable.

For more info, vist the website of Backlash, a pressure group set up in the wake of the Spanner Case.

And now, perhaps a little light entertainment:

Brass Eye Special - "Paedogeddon" 1 / 3
Brass Eye Special - "Paedogeddon" 2 / 3
Brass Eye Special - "Paedogeddon" 3 / 3

Chris Morris' superb skewering of media attitudes towards paedophillia seems even more relevant now than it did in 2001 when it was released. The section towards the end featuring the man from the Obscene Publications Branch is particularly applicable to this thread.

Stag

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#6085 - 03/21/08 07:01 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: morgoth]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Dude, I have an 11 year old girl, and I also would kill and maim any fucker that abused her. That being said, we are not advocating child abuse.

Unfortunately, there are people out there that do fantasize about prepubescent children and teen children. That is why I said what I did about my concern being it being a stepping stone.

However what if something like this actually helped reduce the instances of child molestation? Wouldn't that be a good thing.

I would want to find out alot more about the likely hood of something like this being a stepping stone before I voted on it, but it looks like that is a mute point anyway if TC is correct in saying it is already illegal in Australia.

Zeph
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#6088 - 03/21/08 09:21 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Fantasy and real life acts are in no way related.
If I watch action films does that mean I'm going to murder people? No. Something should never be banned based on the fact that someone may copy what they've seen, especially if the act they're copying is already a crime.

It's the same as drugs. Drugs should be illegal because people may hurt someone under the influence of drugs. But hurting someone anyway is illegal. Should cars be illegal because you might kill someone while driving. No.

It's preventative law based of public pressure that is entirely unfounded and I hate it. Drugs, Porn etc. they should never be illegal.
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#6113 - 03/21/08 06:25 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Happy Birthday Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
Banning cartoons, now that is funny, in an unfortunate sense.

First of all however, I disagree with those who believe that allowing child molesters to watch a cartoon with young characters in it would ease their desire for the real thing. I doubt that watching porn with adult characters wether they are with real live actors, or cartoons would quench the desire of the average male to have sex with real women, if given the opportunity. Granted, one can jerk themselves into a state of peaceful calm while watching porn. Ummm, incase anyone is wondering, I did, ahem, a study on the subject. ;\)

I have heard of “Lolicon,” about fifteen or so years ago, although I wasn’t aware of the name until now. At that time there was an attempt in the U.S.A to make it illegal, but the courts ruled that it was just cartoons, and as many here have already stated, it did not harm any real children.
It appears that certain groups kept pushing to ban it, and make it illegal, until they have succeeded. This is not a big surprise, in a puritan country, such as the U.S. I wouldn’t be surprised if books such as “Lolita,” which I have never read, but believe that it has details of a sexual relationship between a young girl and an older man, might be illegal as well.

Not only is the U.S no longer a free country when it comes to expression or ones actions, but if ever the technology becomes available to read peoples thoughts, then I don’t doubt that certain thoughts will also be illegal.

However, I disagree with Tornadocreator, with the belief that watching a certain type of movie will not encourage people to do what they see in the film. Many people, and perhaps even most people are stupid morons, which is why they are called “sheep.”
There are however, different levels of “stupid.”
Some will only copy how movie characters dress, and perhaps their demeanor. Others will copy their actions as well.

I have heard stories of actors being harassed by “fans” because the character that said actor played did something to another character, that another actor portrayed, which the “fan” found offensive.

Yes, there is a percentage of the population, and frankly I don’t know if it’s a majority or not, that could watch any type of movie, countless times over and over, and not be affected by it.
However, laws that ban cartoons, are made to keep those inline who are morons, just as many of the other laws on the books are.

If one doubts the stupidity of people, take a look at all the warning labels on just about everything. Coffee cups often are marked as “Caution Hot.”
Garbage bags: “Do not use as a floatation device.” (LOL, frankly I think anyone who wants to use a garbage bag as a flotation device should be encouraged.)
That little plastic humidity control thing in medication bottles is marked “Not for consumption.” I mean what the fuck, it’s in the bottle, perhaps it’s just a totally different kind of pill, why not eat that too?

People are fucking morons!! I mean they believe in a know it all ghost in the sky, and live their lives according to stories written by deranged dessert dwellers, thousands of years ago. Let’s not give them too much credit, that they are able to tell the difference between a cartoon and real life.

Unfortunately, the laws are passed to protect the well being of those who really don’t deserve to survive, and not to protect the privileges of the few who’s cognitive abilities are above a monkeys.
Most laws are not enacted by responsible individuals, but instead by groups who come together in order to force others into following a certain way of being, which gives these activists some kind of “meaning,” to their useless existence. Perhaps when no one is watching, they jerk off to child pornography themselves. In the same way that the New York State governor was using hookers for years, while putting others in jail who did the same thing, as he “cleaned up New York,” and made OTHERS answer for their crimes in a public circus.

“Responsibility to the responsible,” let all others use floatation devices that can hold garbage also, give them plastic pills filled with carbon and salt, and let them use hot coffee as a shampoo, and hot pepper sauce as a sexual lubricant.
How else will those lawyers that advertise their “services” on t.v continue to make money?
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