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#6292 - 03/24/08 02:00 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Asmedious, Ta2zz, TC, All,

I think Ta2zz and Asmedious brought up a valid point (even if somewhat accidently).

Isn't the real power or worth, when fighting for freedoms in picking the best fight?

Recntly as you may remember I started a thread on the state I live in trying to reduce freedoms because of the perceived threat caused by outlaw motorcycle gangs (or our Premiere's obsession with them anyway).

Now I did write to my local politition and lobbied to help raise awareness among many a motorbike rider that we were all being classes in this legislation as 'criminals'.

Anyway, if given the choice of what I was going to put my effort into fighting against the taking of liberties, then I would only choose to fight the fight for things I at least thought effected me personally or that I agree on.

Why should I waste my personal time in fighting for freedom of speech for the KKK or cartoon kiddy porn. There are no real positives for either of these things.

Now, I don't like unions, but I would stand up and fight for my right to belong to one.

See the difference? The battles you choose to take up do reflect on who you are and no-one can take up EVERY SINGLE BATTLE. You would soon loose credibility or time if you were to do so.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#6294 - 03/24/08 02:38 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Anyway, if given the choice of what I was going to put my effort into fighting against the taking of liberties, then I would only choose to fight the fight for things I at least thought effected me personally or that I agree on.


Because, as I see it, once the "powers" start taking away peoples rights, it is like the "snow ball" effect. They start rolling, and taking away more and more privilages, at a greater speed.

It is possible, that by the time you recognize that one of the things which you stronly believe in, is being taken away, and no one has stepped up and attempted to stop this power, they will be so strong, that you will be swepped aside, or even worse, because there will be no one left to stand with you.

 Quote:
See the difference? The battles you choose to take up do reflect on who you are and no-one can take up EVERY SINGLE BATTLE. You would soon loose credibility or time if you were to do so.


True. However, it's not about fighting different little battles, for one personal privilage at a time. It is about the WAR that is waged on civil liberites; at least in the United States.

Imagie if soldgers could chose the battles to fight in. Many might feel, that since one part of the country is being attacked, and they are not affected by it, there was no need to resist the enemy. After all, they, and their families were still safe. BUT...when the enemy was at their front doors, other soldgers would feel that they didn't have to fight, beause either they weren't threatened, or the enemy have already defeated them, because no one was there to back them up.

TC earlier posted that poem, or what ever you want to call it (you can scrawl back and see it if you wish), about what happens when people only fight their own personal battles that affect them, but not the war.

"Divide and conquer." When the Nazis herded the jews into concentration camps, most of the world didn't really care. They were not affected.
When they invaded Poland, other countries didn't want to get involved because it did not affect them. They believed that the Nazis would stop before they got to them. However, the Nazis got stronger and stronger, taking one country at a time.
Many don't realize how close the Germans actually came to world domination.

The same thing is happening to civil liberties. They are taking one at a time, at an ever increasing speed.

By the time they decide to take your privilage away to ride a motorcycle, you might very well be the only one left who cares about it, and the rest of us will either be defeated, discoraged, scared, or gone all together, to step up and say that YES, if you want to ride a bike then there is no logical reason not to let you.

What TC is trying to say (I belive), is that even if he was to hate motorcycles and the people who ride them, the powers that be would have to go through him to take that privilage away from you and your friends, because Civil Libreties are so much more important, then personal feelings or indifference about just one particular subject. (I am not trying to speak for TC, it's just how I read what he wrote, and I agree).
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#6298 - 03/24/08 04:19 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
You have it exactly there Asmedious. The most important thing to me is freedom and liberty. I may not like what other people like but I would fight for their right to have it. The only times I've been divided on rights issues is in sports hunting. I believe that so long as you don't hurt anyone that you should be allowed to do whatever you want, but does this extend to animals... I personally believe it does, so I don't support sports hunting. I would support any freedom or right that doesn't hurt anyone (except the person doing it, if they want to do something that hurts themselves that's fine).

I know it's counterproductive to fight every fight, and stand up for every liberty that's attacked but I'm not fighting the law against lolicon individually, this is just one of the battles against the overall removal of liberty. I don't really care about cartoon porn, kiddy or otherwise, I watch real porn with a hot 19 year old blond girl, oooh, or maybe a redhead if I really feel the need. It may not seem like much but even being vocal is doing something. I voice my opinion online, on this and other forums, on my radio show, sure it's only public access but people listen to it and they download the podcast of it. I discuss things at the university debate hall. Just raising awareness is something.

It may seem like nothing to some people, it may make some closed minded people label me along side the people I defend but so what. I am extremely passionate about liberty and I feel I must defend it where I can. Even if it puts a major dent in my life.

Satanism has many rules and guidlines about doing things in such a way that you get the best possible result. Don't posture unless you can deliver, don't give in to counterproductive pride, responsibility to the responsible. I can see the points behind all of them, but the major point in Satanism is to do what you can to further your own happiness. To lay back and except any restriction on my freedoms and civil liberties would make me extremely unhappy. This is why I fight back, I can't bare to see my freedoms taken from me, they are the things that mean the most to me.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6315 - 03/24/08 05:02 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
...the major point in Satanism is to do what you can to further your own happiness. To lay back and except any restriction on my freedoms and civil liberties would make me extremely unhappy. This is why I fight back, I can't bare to see my freedoms taken from me, they are the things that mean the most to me.


Another "major point" regarding Satanism: you must also be intelligent enough to realize that the rest of the world may not agree with your idea freedom. Furthermore, a strong Satanist will realize that there may be consequences for certain actions that are deemed immoral, illegal, or undesirable by the moral majority of their society. A Satanist certainly focuses on their own success and desire. A Satanist will also graciously take responsibility for their actions and any consequences that may ensue.
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So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#6349 - 03/25/08 03:06 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Octavius]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I understand that Octavius, I agree that when it comes to this topic and anything related to liberty and freedoms I don't follow Satanic Principals. I agree with them, but I, quite illogically, refuse to follow them simply because my personal convictions mean more to me than the ideals put in place by Anton LaVey. I try to live by Satanic rules because I agree with them, however here I feel action is required, even if it gets me no-where.

Not everything we do in life is pushed by logic and reason, many times things are forced forward by passion and these are the things that are truly sacred to us.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6358 - 03/25/08 10:55 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Reading most of your past posts I know you are a man of your conviction even if those convictions hinder your progress… Such as not cutting your hair to get a job because you would be conforming… This is not a character attack as much as it is defining your character from the things you have told us… You seem to take things that can harm you to the extreme…

A few lines from your last few posts then…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
The most important thing to me is freedom and liberty.

What is more important your freedom and liberty or that of people that have nothing to do with you, yours, or your way? Is not your freedom and liberty the reason you decided to fight this fight? Do you not see how you threaten exactly that?

And please keep the poems for children’s bedtime stories… All it shows me is you do not comprehend the things you read in my posts…

“Muslims and the KKK mean little to me were it to be announced that they were to be gathered and removed it would mean nothing to me… If my card were called it would be time to move on…But if I did not see the warning signs then the joke is on me…” ~ta2zz

What does your poem offer that I have not already said?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
It may seem like nothing to some people, it may make some closed minded people label me along side the people I defend but so what.

You are the one being close-minded here… To think that the enlightened few are the majority…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I agree that when it comes to this topic and anything related to liberty and freedoms I don't follow Satanic Principals. I agree with them, but I, quite illogically, refuse to follow them simply because my personal convictions mean more to me than the ideals put in place by Anton LaVey.

Pity is all you get out of this lifestyle what was written by Anton LaVey? If so perhaps some more worldly knowledge is needed… Anton LaVey has absolutely nothing to do with you sticking yourself, your family, and loved ones out there in your battle to save lolicon… In fact Anton said something like… If you have the passion to do such a thing then do it, but know what you are going into with open eyes and be responsible for what you do… In other words don’t think the world full of closed minded people know it…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I try to live by Satanic rules because I agree with them, however here I feel action is required, even if it gets me no-where.

I live by my rules… Just because they have so much in common with Satanism is why I am here…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Not everything we do in life is pushed by logic and reason, many times things are forced forward by passion and these are the things that are truly sacred to us.

We both understand the reason that sex with children is illegal, I think we can both agree on that… You have seemed to totally overlook my solution to this lolicon problem… Remember I admit I am not interested in the passion of a few demented individuals that need cartoon porn of children to complete their day…

I ask this again in full seriousness…

Why cannot the age of these girls be mentioned in the stories as being over 18 looking young?

Is it simply because it would ruin the mood TC? A simple solution that I think just might have its day in court?

One more question,

Can you legally carry a handgun where you live as a private citizen or are you denied that right?

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#6364 - 03/25/08 03:30 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
You first point is actually quite a valid assessment of my character, although saying that I have since cut my hair, short back and sides. Today I bought a new webcam so I'll post a picture later tonight.

I understand that I am putting myself at risk, risk of arrest particually, for defending people with socially unacceptable ideals but I still do it. I know it's hard for you to accept my reasoning and perhaps even unreasonable for me to expect you do defend the same ideals however you must agree that it is still an unfair and unjust law to ban any form of harmless personal activity and that it is a violation on the civil rights of the people, surely.

Now, to answer your questions.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Why cannot the age of these girls be mentioned in the stories as being over 18 looking young?

Is it simply because it would ruin the mood TC? A simple solution that I think just might have its day in court?


Because in some it would be an obvious lie. Some of the girls are like... 9 years old in these stories.

Secondly, in Japan the legal age for all sex related things is 14, including the age of models in porn. You can LEGALLY buy real porn with real 14 and 15 year old in it in Japan. So why would they make all the lolicon characters over 18. In fact, manga porn with characters over 14 years old is called hentai, it exists and is quite popular.

Perhaps it would ruin the mood. I'm not exactly a fan of such stuff but I imagine it's things like innocence, childish nature, small/non-existant breasts etc. that make it appealing to those that watch it. There is no such thing as an innocent 18 year old, if you can even find me an 18 year old virgin I'll be shocked. You can't play out the story of the girl who's never been kissed, never seen a guy naked, never touched anyone elses genitals, doesn't know the mechanics of intercourse etc. with an 18 year old because they've all fucked at least three guys in high school.

It may disgust you that people have these fantasies but think of it objectively. People know rape is illegal but wouldn't bondage and S&M be alot less fun if you had to ungag your partner and ask "Do you agree that this is consensual sex?" before penetration. It would completely destroy the mood. What's the point of a fantasy if you have to make a point of breaking the fucking fantasy right before the time.

Becides, this...

...ain't fucking fooling anyone.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Can you legally carry a handgun where you live as a private citizen or are you denied that right?


No, we can't, however you can kill someone alot easier with a handgun than a lolicon drawing. That said, I am against the current gun laws as well.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6684 - 03/30/08 12:31 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Can you legally carry a handgun where you live as a private citizen or are you denied that right?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
No, we can't, however you can kill someone alot easier with a handgun than a lolicon drawing. That said, I am against the current gun laws as well.


Then it seems like you have a bigger fight to fight than cartoon porn huh? On the flip side I was active 20 years ago on handgun support... Before the internet finding snippets in gun mags and the library making copies at 5 cents apiece to hand out to people in front of the local 7-11...

20 years later in my hometown/ state it is so much easier to obtain your handgun permit... As long as you are mentally fit and not a felon...

Just started to break in my new PT 145 by shooting 100 rounds of cheap ball ammo and 10 rounds of some hot +p defensive rounds through it... I forgot how expensive this habit can be...

Ta-Ta for now...

~T~

This also speaks

it's intention...
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#6720 - 03/30/08 06:03 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Can you legally carry a handgun where you live as a private citizen or are you denied that right?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
No, we can't, however you can kill someone alot easier with a handgun than a lolicon drawing. That said, I am against the current gun laws as well.


Then it seems like you have a bigger fight to fight than cartoon porn huh?

Depends really, I don't consider either more important that the other idealistically and although I would personally get more enjoyment out of legalising guns the laws make sense at least. Guns are primarily weapons, (people who call them tools are lying to themselves). Limiting weapons to the public makes sense, the laws are simply too strict here, but not necessarily intrinsically bad.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7217 - 04/04/08 11:17 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Can you poke holes in my logic?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Depends really, I don't consider either more important that the other idealistically and although I would personally get more enjoyment out of legalising guns the laws make sense at least.

Guns are primarily weapons, (people who call them tools are lying to themselves). Limiting weapons to the public makes sense, the laws are simply too strict here, but not necessarily intrinsically bad.

Lets look at the first half of that statement…

Since you would enjoy the right to carry a gun more than drawing or whacking off to lolicon… Do you not understand why the fight for gun laws in your country is more important to you, than those that limit kiddy porn anime? Will a drawing of a defenseless young girl protect your life?

On to the second half…

Let us define what a tool is shall we?

“A tool is a device or a piece of equipment that typically provides a mechanical advantage in accomplishing a task or enables the accomplishment of a task not otherwise possible.

Link

If my task at hand is to point at an animal and need or desire it to die no matter were I hunting for food or defending my life or my family then the TOOL to use would be a gun… Therefore to try to say people who say guns are tools are lying to themselves is simply bashing another group of people… Why? Does it make you feel bigger?

Gun laws keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens… Once we stop believing that which we are force fed through the media you can see this… Anyone who believes that a gun law will keep a gun out of the hand of a criminal is outright stupid…

This thought continued here: Gun Control Laws

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#7229 - 04/05/08 03:08 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I agree, gun laws do only keep the guns away from the law abiding citizens, I agree that the gun laws are stupid and should change because otherwise only criminals get guns. However it's a fucking weapon not a damn tool. I can except that it is a device created with the sole purpose to be able to make the job of killing some other poor sod much easier. Yes weapons are a sub category of tools, but they are not tools as it is colloquially accepted, that's why we have a different word for it. People who call guns tools are people who are trying to convince others that their primary function is not to kill people, is not that of weaponry. It fucking is. (and no, guns where not designed for hunting, that was the bow and arrow, guns where designed to kill people).

As for the main argument. There are plenty of people fighting for gun laws to change. Plenty. I don't need to be the voice because it already has a voice. Lolicon doesn't. I will side with the voice if it came down to a vote, and I would rally along side them if there was something I could be a part of but I won't go out of my way. Why? Because you can't fight every single cause yourself. If someone else if fighting on that side of the battlefield, maybe you should fight of the other side and protect their flank. After all what if they're fighting for gun laws to be changed, and lolicon is made illegal, then drawing it for personal use is a crime, then they make thinking about it illegal... now we have thought police... these thought police link sex with violence, now thinking about guns is banned... oh, we're fucked. Yes it could be claimed that's a reductio ad absurdum, but it explains my point at least.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7273 - 04/05/08 09:49 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

A few big words will not win a debate…

So let me get this straight you disagree with this definition of a tool?

“A tool is a device or a piece of equipment that typically provides a mechanical advantage in accomplishing a task or enables the accomplishment of a task not otherwise possible.” Link

Wrenches are another sub category of tool so are pencils, butter knifes, tattoo machines, etc… I believe it has been a long while since man could only point to various objects and say tool… Same as anything I just mentioned can be used as a weapon a gun has a primary purpose, it makes a lousy hammer but can be used if absolutely needed… ;\)

While some tools can have secondary uses lolicon is never a tool…

“Adversus solem ne loquitor”

Understood?

Good luck in your battles…

Peace

~T~

“Absit invidia”
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#7294 - 04/06/08 05:21 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
The thought police will never happen. Acting on a subject is the crime always.

I mean in this day and age, you can't get anyone really arrested or stopped unless they actaully DO something to you.

If they are just THINKING about it, you and the police will actually never know, as long as you don't ACT on those thoughts, nobody else knows.

Maybe that's what makes drawing pedophelia so difficult to say is ok.

It's drawing something immoral. I don't for one minute think that we should allow people to start drawing say rape cartoons, because the act is invading somebody else's will. It's intent.

If someone is committing their thoughts of a subject to paper, isn't he then ACTING on said thought. So maybe it should be illegal to DRAW lollicon, but not to VIEW it.

After all, seducing a child is still a crime. It doesn't have to be horrific and cruel and unpleasant to be peodaphilia. If you are actually saying that it is to ok make love to children even under the age of fourteen, then I would have to dissagree completely.

Children under that age are not allowed to drink for a reason and they are not allowed to have sex before a certain age for a reason also. They just aren't old enough to make the healthy and best decision for themselves when it comes to this. Anyone that would take advantage of this no matter how sweetly, is infringing on that childs well being and therefore harming said child in the processs. So if the act itself should be a crime, then the drawing of said action should be illegal also.

So there you go if you have bothered to get all the way through this, for the future, you'll know when I'm on here stoned. :P

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#7299 - 04/06/08 07:21 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
OK Zeph... So people who draw pictures, or to take this further make films, that involve anyone stabbing or shooting someone else should be locked up because ACTING on violent tendencies and killing people is illegal so DRAWING is should be illegal. That's just plain retarded... please try again, it was pathetic.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7303 - 04/06/08 11:38 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
So people who draw pictures, or to take this further make films, that involve anyone stabbing or shooting someone else should be locked up because ACTING on violent tendencies and killing people is illegal so DRAWING is should be illegal. That's just plain retarded... please try again, it was pathetic.

Your fight here is now reductio ad absurdum... \:\)

What have you done since you started this thread here... You post so much that I am sure you have done very little in the real world... Also mmorpg’s such as EVE take time, a lot of time… Spend too much time in the fantasy of EVE and you miss out on real world skills…

Do you hand out home made fliers to spread the word that these rights are being taken away? Do you go out of your way to make the public aware of what you stand for?

You claim “I have written to my local MP and have had a local debate in the university halls in my town to try and get people to look at this issue because many people don't even know it's an issue.”

To most it is not an issue…

Do these two things you have done make you feel accomplished? Did calling the local MP and debating in your university do anything? How many have you made aware of the gross injustice (in your eyes) being done? Have you even spread the word to hundreds or is it more like a handful of people…

300 single sided copies should cost around 20 USD… Then pick a store ask if its ok to hand out your flier in their parking lot and in an hour or two you have informed 300 people… As to what stores to do this in front of, I would suggest that you stay away from bars and/or children’s stores… You might want a friend along with you to videotape the event and protect your ass from disgruntled fathers… Be prepared, this is the front of the battle you have chosen… Talking here does nothing towards your supposed flanking of the enemy…

You in another thread talk against anonymous fighting scientology using the disinformation being spread of what the group does as your guide… Yet they have the balls to stand outside and say what they feel, they are not hiding behind a computer screen… They make and put videos on the internet for all to see… What was is you have done again?

I think were this war, you’re in line for an other than honorable discharge…

Good Day

~T~

Go do something besides wasting your time here trying always to prove you are right…


Edited by ta2zz (04/06/08 11:43 AM)
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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