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#5986 - 03/20/08 10:02 AM Lolicon Illegal?!
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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This is something I feel quite strongly about.

Recently there have been multiple campaigns against lolicon, particually in USA and Australia (and as we have quite the australian member-base here I would like opinions from them if possible). The current campaigns are to make it illegal and in some cases they want to put a 10 year prison sentence on it.

So, for those who don't know. What is "lolicon"?
Lolicon is a form of hentai, or cartoon pornography, originating from Japan that depicts young girls under the age of 14. Now, this is quite an aquired taste, as are most fetishes. First of all you would need to be attracted to animé/manga style drawing, second you would need to be attracted to underaged girls. So as you can see, this is very much a fringe fetish.

Now, current groups are trying to peg this as child porn, and one guy has already gone to prison for this. An Australian living in USA. As of last year lolicon was made illegal in USA and Australia and they are attempting to make it illegal in UK and Sweeden next.

I am personally outraged. Child porn is illegal because the child is being exploited, which I agree with whole-heartedly. Real child porn is sick exploitation of young children and quite frequently it's full on rape. It is a traumatic experience that will stay with the child for years. I believe my opinion on this subject is considered considering my experiences. HOWEVER, lolicon is nothing but a drawing. You cannot exploit a drawing, it is not a real person, it's simply art and nothing more. Secondly how can you decern the age of a fucking drawing. If I draw someone who looks 12 and say she's 18, she's 18. Why? Because I drew her, it's my drawing, she doesn't really exist.

My argument is simply to treat people who enjoy lolicon as child molesterers is wrong. It's entirely unjust to pass the same sentence on someone who has a drawing on their computer as you would someone who has raped a school girl. It outrages me at the injustice.

Even on a cultural level it doesn't make sense. There are many Japanese films and animé in which 15 year olds have sex, and it's legitimate storyline, not just porn. Why? Because age of concent in Japan is 14. That's perfectly legal there. It's not some evil shit, it's just their culture and having spoken to some very intelligent and mature 14 year olds there is reason to allow such things, but then I know 19 year olds that are mentally and emotionally ill-prepared for sex.

Put simply, this ban is out of hand. It's banning artistic expression, even if people do think it's seedy porn. It means something to someone, they enjoy it, and it's a fucking drawing. It hurts no-one so it shouldn't be illegal. If anything it provides an outlet for the frustration many pedophiles must feel daily, meaning they can control themselves better around real children.

What do other people think. Should this be illegal?
Remember things shouldn't be illegal because you don't like them or because its "sick and disgusting", this is all about civil liberties. I don't like scat porn, rap or oysters. I don't want them illegal so give it some thought before answering.

Here is a link to a PDF of the "Prosecutorial Remedies and Other Tools to end the Exploitation of Children Today Act of 2003" -
http://judiciary.senate.gov/special/S151CONF.pdf
This has been passed already.

Here is a link to a BBC news story concerning the subject -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6175441.stm

Please give me your opinions.
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#6047 - 03/20/08 09:29 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Well, i've never even heard of lolicon. At first I thought you were talking about the LOL Icon, like the abbreviated Laughing Out Loud icon we text, and i was thinking how dumb it was for people to want to put people in prison for 10 years for typing it? Thats fucking overkill.

Your right TC just because I think its sick, doesn't mean I have any right to force my views on others and make them live it.

I think it should be legal. This way those creeps that do like it can have some way to vent their sexual thing for children, like masturbating to cartoon kiddy porn, instead of going out and doing it...

But where will it stop? Lolicon porn sites... Lolicon fonesex lines... its cartoons!
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#6051 - 03/20/08 09:39 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
rob_church Offline
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Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
i fully agree to each his own this is hurting no one and just beacuse it is not somes one fetish seems ridicoulus that they would try to outlaw sutch a thing.now what will the pedophiles do they will have no release and will act on thier impulese insted of geting their fix with a drawing.it is just fucked how so many people cant see the repercutions of forcing their moral taboos on others but this is the way of the world sadley

beacuse i dont like it you must not either and if you do i will hunt ,hurt and cage you for it.what a mentality for shame.
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#6058 - 03/20/08 10:05 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: rob_church]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
I have a question: since the manufacturing of artificial human companions is something like a Satanic Objective... would making and selling child sex dolls be acceptable and legal?
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#6061 - 03/20/08 10:17 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
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Loc: US
So am I going to have to burn, hide, then wipe my hard drive of all the hentai I have on my computer? I have almost the entire Cool Devices series downloaded, plus random clips.

Bullshit.
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#6063 - 03/20/08 10:32 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
rob_church Offline
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Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
personally see no problem with that it would give an even better vent as you said kayla. dont they make them now even? i remeber a while ago some one was talking about how real doll was making a child doll but did not have the sex side of it?
that would be the next step but our socitey will have to change quite a bit befor that happens and in the meantime thouse that have the impuses will go for the real thing.

all beacuse of taboos if they had a safe outlet for their impulse not just pedophiles but rapist,ect.. their would be alot less violence sexually but when soictey supresses these impuses it grows .supresstion creates monsters even with out a doll ,if the world where not so hung up on taboos and some one could tell their partner i want to rape some one would you roleplay for me or could you dress up like a 12 year old school girl it would get it out of their system i belive and that attack would not happen but the world need to change alot for that to happen and i doubt it ever will .not many people agree with me on this point but so be it i think no taboos would create a safer world.
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#6064 - 03/20/08 10:40 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: rob_church]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: rob_church
personally see no problem with that it would give an even better vent as you said kayla. dont they make them now even? i remeber a while ago some one was talking about how real doll was making a child doll but did not have the sex side of it?
that would be the next step but our socitey will have to change quite a bit befor that happens and in the meantime thouse that have the impuses will go for the real thing.

all beacuse of taboos if they had a safe outlet for their impulse not just pedophiles but rapist,ect.. their would be alot less violence sexually but when soictey supresses these impuses it grows .supresstion creates monsters even with out a doll ,if the world where not so hung up on taboos and some one could tell their partner i want to rape some one would you roleplay for me or could you dress up like a 12 year old school girl it would get it out of their system i belive and that attack would not happen but the world need to change alot for that to happen and i doubt it ever will .not many people agree with me on this point but so be it i think no taboos would create a safer world.

I agree with you on all points. All we have to do is take a look at places where things like sexuality is repressed or has been repressed by taboos and religions like America... the middle east... then compare it to more liberal places like Europe. I'm not saying that Europe would be open to lolicons or child sex dolls; but their more open minded about drugs and sex... on the other hand we Americans have this stupid 'ostrich head in the sand' mentality with sex...
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#6077 - 03/21/08 03:54 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Nemesis]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
So am I going to have to burn, hide, then wipe my hard drive of all the hentai I have on my computer? I have almost the entire Cool Devices series downloaded, plus random clips.

Bullshit.


Not all hentai, only lolicon, so only if the charactersare 14 years old or younger. The thing is, most of the characters don't have ages, which means it's up to the arresting officers and jury to decide if she looks underage.

Also on the subject of the child sex doll, they already have them in Japan and Russia although they are considered seedy and obscene in Russia.
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#6078 - 03/21/08 04:32 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
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Loc: Adelaide Australia
Yes I would have to agree with you all. As long as no children are being abused, and seeing as they are cartoons it is highly unlikely, then it's fine by me.

The only possible problem that I could see with it (and this is just for arguments sake) would be if the cartoon kiddies were giving the impression that they wanted to be forced in any way. That might, and I only say might, make some men think that real kids also feel this way and maybe then move on to a real live subject.

But, men being physiologically made to respond to pictures, I can actually see this as a very good way for pedophiles to get to release some of their sexual frustrations without involving a real child. Same goes for the child dolls. I wonder how many actual children could be saved the horror of rape and abuse if these types of alternative were made available?

Maybe someone who wanted that badly to have this type of arousal available to them, should have to register and receive councilling of some sort (so they don't prey on real children, not so much to cure them), to get a license for it? Probably ridiculous and a far fetched idea, but better than prohibition.

Zeph
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#6079 - 03/21/08 04:59 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
morgoth Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Zeph, T.C.
I think i can see where you are coming from, but as a father of a 10 yr old girl, I would horribly kill anyone who touched her.
The problem I have with this is that I feel that some one who has these feelings/fantasies about girls of this age may have a wharped sense of reality, and the fact that they are Hentai cartoons means that the cartoons themselves may be a stepping stone to the real thing.
My opinions only as a father and admirer of women

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#6081 - 03/21/08 05:26 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: morgoth]
TornadoCreator Offline
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I can understand that morgoth, but it started in Japan, where more than half the TV, including prime time soaps and action films are actually animé because it's cheaper and Japan has limited movie sets. In Japan cartoons are not just for kids.

This aside, I know a guy who likes Hentai, and he's open about it. I also happen to know he likes Lolicon although he never told anyone, I accidentally found it on his computer.
I would trust this guy with my little sister. He is a perfectly nice guy who wouldn't hurt anyone. His preferences in porn don't mean a thing to me. But then I'm more liberal minded than most people, and I understand why he hides this.
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#6082 - 03/21/08 05:40 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
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Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
Once again New Labour seems intent on appeasing the moral majority by attempting to legislate against thought crime. Note also the proposed ban on "extreme pornography". No, not videos of people fucking whilst jumping out of aeroplanes (ho-ho), the UK Governement defines "extreme pornography" as follows:

  • an act which threatens or appears to threaten a person’s life
  • an act which results in or appears to result (or be likely to result) in serious injury to a person’s anus, breasts or genitals
  • an act which involves or appears to involve sexual interference with a human corpse
  • a person performing or appearing to perform an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal
The important word here is "appears" -- that's right, New Labour are (potentially) legislating against works of fiction. The difference between harmless, legal horror films like Friday the 13th, and evil, depraved "extreme pornography" is that the latter "appears to have been produced solely or principally for the purpose of sexual arousal". So in other words, violent horror films are okay, so long as they don't give you an erection.

The real worry here, along with the whole "lolicon" debacle is how ill-defined the boundaries are. Theoretically at least I could be prosecuted simply for drawing an image on a piece of paper, if that image contains something the goverment finds objectionable.

For more info, vist the website of Backlash, a pressure group set up in the wake of the Spanner Case.

And now, perhaps a little light entertainment:

Brass Eye Special - "Paedogeddon" 1 / 3
Brass Eye Special - "Paedogeddon" 2 / 3
Brass Eye Special - "Paedogeddon" 3 / 3

Chris Morris' superb skewering of media attitudes towards paedophillia seems even more relevant now than it did in 2001 when it was released. The section towards the end featuring the man from the Obscene Publications Branch is particularly applicable to this thread.

Stag

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#6085 - 03/21/08 07:01 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: morgoth]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Dude, I have an 11 year old girl, and I also would kill and maim any fucker that abused her. That being said, we are not advocating child abuse.

Unfortunately, there are people out there that do fantasize about prepubescent children and teen children. That is why I said what I did about my concern being it being a stepping stone.

However what if something like this actually helped reduce the instances of child molestation? Wouldn't that be a good thing.

I would want to find out alot more about the likely hood of something like this being a stepping stone before I voted on it, but it looks like that is a mute point anyway if TC is correct in saying it is already illegal in Australia.

Zeph
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#6088 - 03/21/08 09:21 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Fantasy and real life acts are in no way related.
If I watch action films does that mean I'm going to murder people? No. Something should never be banned based on the fact that someone may copy what they've seen, especially if the act they're copying is already a crime.

It's the same as drugs. Drugs should be illegal because people may hurt someone under the influence of drugs. But hurting someone anyway is illegal. Should cars be illegal because you might kill someone while driving. No.

It's preventative law based of public pressure that is entirely unfounded and I hate it. Drugs, Porn etc. they should never be illegal.
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#6113 - 03/21/08 06:25 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Banning cartoons, now that is funny, in an unfortunate sense.

First of all however, I disagree with those who believe that allowing child molesters to watch a cartoon with young characters in it would ease their desire for the real thing. I doubt that watching porn with adult characters wether they are with real live actors, or cartoons would quench the desire of the average male to have sex with real women, if given the opportunity. Granted, one can jerk themselves into a state of peaceful calm while watching porn. Ummm, incase anyone is wondering, I did, ahem, a study on the subject. ;\)

I have heard of “Lolicon,” about fifteen or so years ago, although I wasn’t aware of the name until now. At that time there was an attempt in the U.S.A to make it illegal, but the courts ruled that it was just cartoons, and as many here have already stated, it did not harm any real children.
It appears that certain groups kept pushing to ban it, and make it illegal, until they have succeeded. This is not a big surprise, in a puritan country, such as the U.S. I wouldn’t be surprised if books such as “Lolita,” which I have never read, but believe that it has details of a sexual relationship between a young girl and an older man, might be illegal as well.

Not only is the U.S no longer a free country when it comes to expression or ones actions, but if ever the technology becomes available to read peoples thoughts, then I don’t doubt that certain thoughts will also be illegal.

However, I disagree with Tornadocreator, with the belief that watching a certain type of movie will not encourage people to do what they see in the film. Many people, and perhaps even most people are stupid morons, which is why they are called “sheep.”
There are however, different levels of “stupid.”
Some will only copy how movie characters dress, and perhaps their demeanor. Others will copy their actions as well.

I have heard stories of actors being harassed by “fans” because the character that said actor played did something to another character, that another actor portrayed, which the “fan” found offensive.

Yes, there is a percentage of the population, and frankly I don’t know if it’s a majority or not, that could watch any type of movie, countless times over and over, and not be affected by it.
However, laws that ban cartoons, are made to keep those inline who are morons, just as many of the other laws on the books are.

If one doubts the stupidity of people, take a look at all the warning labels on just about everything. Coffee cups often are marked as “Caution Hot.”
Garbage bags: “Do not use as a floatation device.” (LOL, frankly I think anyone who wants to use a garbage bag as a flotation device should be encouraged.)
That little plastic humidity control thing in medication bottles is marked “Not for consumption.” I mean what the fuck, it’s in the bottle, perhaps it’s just a totally different kind of pill, why not eat that too?

People are fucking morons!! I mean they believe in a know it all ghost in the sky, and live their lives according to stories written by deranged dessert dwellers, thousands of years ago. Let’s not give them too much credit, that they are able to tell the difference between a cartoon and real life.

Unfortunately, the laws are passed to protect the well being of those who really don’t deserve to survive, and not to protect the privileges of the few who’s cognitive abilities are above a monkeys.
Most laws are not enacted by responsible individuals, but instead by groups who come together in order to force others into following a certain way of being, which gives these activists some kind of “meaning,” to their useless existence. Perhaps when no one is watching, they jerk off to child pornography themselves. In the same way that the New York State governor was using hookers for years, while putting others in jail who did the same thing, as he “cleaned up New York,” and made OTHERS answer for their crimes in a public circus.

“Responsibility to the responsible,” let all others use floatation devices that can hold garbage also, give them plastic pills filled with carbon and salt, and let them use hot coffee as a shampoo, and hot pepper sauce as a sexual lubricant.
How else will those lawyers that advertise their “services” on t.v continue to make money?
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#6116 - 03/21/08 06:38 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
I doubt that watching porn with adult characters wether they are with real live actors, or cartoons would quench the desire of the average male to have sex with real women, if given the opportunity. Granted, one can jerk themselves into a state of peaceful calm while watching porn. Ummm, incase anyone is wondering, I did, ahem, a study on the subject. ;\)


Hmm... not that I'm easily influenced, but you make an excellent point. Personally I don't get off on porn, but I do with good hot descriptive erotica...

And your right, people are dumb enough to go out and try it as they see it.

But again its the issue of liberty. Do we have a right to ban it because people are just simply stupid?
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#6127 - 03/21/08 07:26 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Quote:
But again its the issue of liberty. Do we have a right to ban it because people are just simply stupid?


The answer to that is obvious, since it was banned (according to the OP.) They did have the right, because they did it.
It doesn't mean that it's fair, but it is, what it is. It's the way of the world. Give a government enough power, then they take the rest without us having a true say either way.
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#6170 - 03/22/08 06:31 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
TornadoCreator Offline
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I would have to say that no government should have the right to ban anything. Laws like murder and thieft are sensible, but who has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do.

Now I know USA and Australia have banned lolicon but currently UK, Sweeden and now Spain, Canada and New Zealand are discussing it.
The only countries that are outright refusing to ban it are Japan, Russia, Finland and France.
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#6188 - 03/22/08 12:12 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I would have to say that no government should have the right to ban anything.

As the population increases the stupidity level goes up herd mentality tends to take over… Order must be kept to remain in control…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Laws like murder and thieft are sensible, but who has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do.

So in your perfect world if someone has the means and the want to murder say…. YOU then that is ok, after all who has the right to say otherwise?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Now I know USA and Australia have banned lolicon but currently UK, Sweeden and now Spain, Canada and New Zealand are discussing it.
The only countries that are outright refusing to ban it are Japan, Russia, Finland and France.

Am I the only one that thinks that people thinking of sex with underage children are sick and need treatment? No matter what your medium if you draw children in sexually provocative poses then you are guilty of the same thoughts as a pedophile as far as I am concerned… Same if you enjoy watching such animations…

~T~
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#6197 - 03/22/08 02:10 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Quote:
No matter what your medium if you draw children in sexually provocative poses then you are guilty of the same thoughts as a pedophile as far as I am concerned


See, that is what I meant ealier when I wrote, that if thoughts could be policed, certain lines of thought would be banned, and people who broke that law would be procecuted for them.

Then the question becomes, who will be in charge of the thought police, and what thoughts will be outlawed.

Some claim that anyone who fantasizes about under aged people, are pedophiles. I don't know about that, but it sure would be interesting to see how many people would be in trouble for some kind of "unacceptable" thought processes, if it was possible to do so.
Does thinking and fantasizing about murder, rape, robbery, and such, also makes a person as guilty, as the people who actually go and do those things?

The point being, that yes, if a person does draw under aged people in provocative acts, they are guilty for thinking the same thing as a pedophile, but are they truly the same as someone who physically does harm to others?


Edited by Asmedious (03/22/08 02:11 PM)
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#6199 - 03/22/08 02:31 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Posts: 586
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Because we're talking about a controversial subject we now have such gems as:-
 Quote:
The point being, that yes, if a person does draw under aged people in provocative acts, they are guilty for thinking the same thing as a pedophile, but are they truly the same as someone who physically does harm to others?

NO!!!

On any other subject you wouldn't even ask that question. You know the answer is no.

They ARE pedophiles is they think about it, they are child molesters if they do it, no they are not truly the same or in any way they same. One person has fantasized about it, one has done it. I have fantasized about robbing a bank, killing people I don't like etc. does that make me as bad as people who do it, no.

The fact is, society is trying to outlaw the drawing of fucking pictures. Or even the owning of a picture that someone drew with a damn pensil. There is no harm here, it is bloody thought police and I hate it. Just because society is filled with morons does not mean our laws should cater to thier whims, this banning doesn't even benefit the morons and dregs of society. At least having the "Caution: Coffee May Be Hot!" lable has a purpose, banning Lolicon doesn't. It's needless removal of harmless material and I see no point other than someone else forcing their arbitrary personal opinions on to me. Sure it may make some idiot think "Ur, lets go out and rape a child", but then that same genius will likely get the idea of attacking people with chainsaws if he watches Texas Chainsaw Massacre so should we really be building the world with that guy in mind?

(and by the way Ta2zz, I was trying to get across that laws like murder and thieft are sensible and thus excempt from the "who has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do" ideals because they cause harm/disruption to others. You knew what I ment, you're trying to stir trouble, stop it.)
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#6218 - 03/22/08 09:50 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

You seem pretty worked up over this decision to outlaw “kiddy porn” cartoons man… Why is this really? Drawing brutal pictures of rape and murder can get you counseling as a child… It can also point to more serious issues in children and adults…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
They ARE pedophiles is they think about it, they are child molesters if they do it, no they are not truly the same or in any way they same. One person has fantasized about it, one has done it. I have fantasized about robbing a bank, killing people I don't like etc. does that make me as bad as people who do it, no.

Now we are arguing the definitions of a child molester and a pedophile? Perhaps the best people to ask would be a lifer in prison or a father of a killed and/or abused child…

Do you enjoy drawing art focused on killing people and robbing banks? Do you feel the need for cartoons to show these situations graphically enhanced in that animated way for your sexual pleasure? In a world where Beavis and Butthead saying fire, fire, fire supposedly caused kids to start fires where do you draw the line…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
The fact is, society is trying to outlaw the drawing of fucking pictures. Or even the owning of a picture that someone drew with a damn pensil.

Get out much? Laws are written with the stroke of a pen, all it takes is that signature to make anything your can imagine illegal no matter how long you enjoyed it…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
There is no harm here, it is bloody thought police and I hate it.

Thought police are much more dangerous than this… See you forget nobody has made it illegal to think like a pedophile, murderer, or thief just yet… It is just not ok to act like one even if you only get your jollies watching cartoons or fucking your Realdoll RealChild animatronics doll… I will not get into the attraction to animated art here…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Just because society is filled with morons does not mean our laws should cater to thier whims, this banning doesn't even benefit the morons and dregs of society.

No it possibly benefits the children… Who are they but objects of sexual desire right?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
At least having the "Caution: Coffee May Be Hot!" lable has a purpose, banning Lolicon doesn't.

You are blinded by your perversion…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
It's needless removal of harmless material and I see no point other than someone else forcing their arbitrary personal opinions on to me.

There will still be people that feel the need to draw young children in sexually suggestive poses just as there are people turned on by drawings of obese animal people hybrids… Just as there are still people who drink and drive, and those who frequent prostitutes no matter their legality… Just remember when Johnny Law comes knocking at your door if there is illegal material on your computer it was your vice that caused you to break the law no one else…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Sure it may make some idiot think "Ur, lets go out and rape a child", but then that same genius will likely get the idea of attacking people with chainsaws if he watches Texas Chainsaw Massacre so should we really be building the world with that guy in mind?

This is clearly why I think you ignorant TC… One kid starts a fire with a lighter now all lighters are child proofed… I have no kids yet I use lighters forced to cope… Car windows no longer roll all the way down in the back door why? So kids cannot climb out… I have no kids yet am forced to live with half windows in the back of my car… I could go on, but you get the point…

Oh in a perfect world… The majority would not be stupid blind fools, commonsense would be the golden rule, everyone would always agree and be tolerant and respectful of others… (pop)

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
(and by the way Ta2zz, I was trying to get across that laws like murder and thieft are sensible and thus excempt from the "who has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do" ideals because they cause harm/disruption to others. You knew what I ment, you're trying to stir trouble, stop it.)

Oh TC it is well known that I think you are ignorant in many ways, remember I never yet called you stupid… To simply write off everything I say as trying to stir trouble proves what?

Let me ask you something seriously now… Since this troubles you such and has you in such a huff what are you doing about it? Have you done anything at all or is ranting here the maximum of your capabilities on this subject? Have you written your local lawmakers saying “you’re mad as hell and not going to take it anymore”?

What have you, or are you trying to accomplish with this here? What does speaking here change? Have you done one real world thing to try to stop this?

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#6232 - 03/23/08 05:03 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Actually yes ta2zz. I have written to my local MP and have had a local debate in the university halls in my town to try and get people to look at this issue because many people don't even know it's an issue.

I am extremely worked up about the banning yes. I hate all freedom removals. Freedom of speach, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, these are important to me. I hate the Islamic religion more than I can say yet I would be outraged if Muslims where told they could not voice there opinions anymore and the Qu'ran was to be made illegal. I don't agree with the racist ideals of the KKK but I would defend them openly if they made KKK meetings illegal. Freedom is intrinsically important to me, and I will defend it endlessly.

Can I ask you a simple yes or no, please ta2zz. If you could vote on this, would you vote to unban lolicon or not (as it's already banned over there)?
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6243 - 03/23/08 10:54 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
Let us define Lolicon before we go any further…

Lolicon; In Japan, the term describes an attraction to young girls, or an individual with such an attraction. Outside Japan, the term is less common and most often refers to a genre of manga and anime wherein childlike female characters are depicted in an erotic manner. wiki

Lolicon; The term typically refers to pornographic art, anime or otherwise, of females aged between 12 and 16, and also to those people attracted to such girls. However, real child pornography is sometimes called lolicon. urbandictionary

In layman’s terms Lolicon means Animated Kiddy Porn if not being used to describe the real thing…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Actually yes ta2zz. I have written to my local MP and have had a local debate in the university halls in my town to try and get people to look at this issue because many people don't even know it's an issue.

To many people as myself it is a serious non-issue, see TC I see things like this… The only true freedom is what you have hidden in your head, and only then as long as you do not draw too much attention to yourself…

How was your outcome when talking to people face to face did you find people tend to put the pedophile title on you for defending pedophiles and this animated kiddy porn?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I am extremely worked up about the banning yes. I hate all freedom removals. Freedom of speach, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, these are important to me.

Are you familiar with introspection? Perhaps you need to ask yourself why you’re really fighting for lolicon… Defender of freedom of speech, religion, and expression interesting you sound so patriotic…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I hate the Islamic religion more than I can say yet I would be outraged if Muslims where told they could not voice there opinions anymore and the Qu'ran was to be made illegal. I don't agree with the racist ideals of the KKK but I would defend them openly if they made KKK meetings illegal. Freedom is intrinsically important to me, and I will defend it endlessly.

Wow TC do you wear a cape while protecting truth and justice or just a hood? If I waste my energy hating someone they would be better off dead… Muslims and the KKK mean little to me were it to be announced that they were to be gathered and removed it would mean nothing to me… If my card were called it would be time to move on…But if I did not see the warning signs then the joke is on me…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Can I ask you a simple yes or no, please ta2zz. If you could vote on this, would you vote to unban lolicon or not (as it's already banned over there)?

No TC in fact I would do the exact opposite… I am all for the banning of child pornography drawn or real… I am all for arresting and institutionalizing child molesters, pedophiles, those that support them, and those that feel the need to spread their sick child loving previsions through art…

Also like I explained before this is not a form of the thought police… You can want to fuck little kids all you want you can even masturbate yourself to a sweat drenched frenzy thinking about this perversion… But draw kids in sexually suggestive poses and as far as “WE” (the general public) are concerned you are breaking the law…

Perhaps stories in animated porn will now have to stress the legal age of said drawn character… Boy that will ruin those demented masturbation sessions though huh?

~T~


Edited by ta2zz (03/23/08 10:57 AM)
Edit Reason: added words to better express a thought...
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#6244 - 03/23/08 11:18 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
The definitions you have for lolicon are rather poor but good enough for now. I have never heard of a person who likes lolicon being called a lolicon before, but that's becide the point.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
How was your outcome when talking to people face to face did you find people tend to put the pedophile title on you for defending pedophiles and this animated kiddy porn?

Maybe, but they didn't make a point of it to my face, and I don't care, because if they are quick to label I will never get them to support my argument.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Are you familiar with introspection? Perhaps you need to ask yourself why you’re really fighting for lolicon… Defender of freedom of speech, religion, and expression interesting you sound so patriotic…

If patriotism is defending my ideals vocally then I am guilty as charged. I believe quite definately in these ideals.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Wow TC do you wear a cape while protecting truth and justice or just a hood? If I waste my energy hating someone they would be better off dead… Muslims and the KKK mean little to me were it to be announced that they were to be gathered and removed it would mean nothing to me… If my card were called it would be time to move on…But if I did not see the warning signs then the joke is on me…


Perhaps this poem by Reverend Martin Niemöller will express my point. This is as close a translation from the original German as I can get.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Is it bad for me to speak out, even for people I don't agree with, I'm not connected to or can even relate to? Maybe I just have an ideal to uphold.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Can I ask you a simple yes or no, please ta2zz. If you could vote on this, would you vote to unban lolicon or not (as it's already banned over there)?

No TC in fact I would do the exact opposite… I am all for the banning of child pornography drawn or real… I am all for arresting and institutionalizing child molesters, pedophiles, those that support them, and those that feel the need to spread their sick child loving previsions through art…

Also like I explained before this is not a form of the thought police… You can want to fuck little kids all you want you can even masturbate yourself to a sweat drenched frenzy thinking about this perversion… But draw kids in sexually suggestive poses and as far as “WE” (the general public) are concerned you are breaking the law…

Well I'm glad you're not writing the law then, because you'd be locking me up as well (hense the bold) and I would fight tooth and nail against you. The only way you'd be taking me down is dead. Just because the general public says that me doing a fucking drawing is illegal doesn't mean I'm going to listen and neither should anyone else. I defend their right to do what they want and I will KILL to defend that right.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6251 - 03/23/08 12:37 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
I tend to agree with T.C on this one. Personally, I don't care either way, if anyone enjoys CARTOONS of ANY KIND.

However, what I find unsettling, is that a group of people have so much power, that they can ban a cartoon genere.

I have never seen Lolicon, nor would seek out to watch it. However, I find it disturbing, that I am FORBIDDEN, from doing so, when it would harm no one, if I chose to view it.

To me, a cartoon, is not real in any shape or form. It's drawings made into animation.
They can predict the slaughter and torture of innocent defenseless fluffy animals, and I wouldn't care. Yet, I love cute and fluffy animals, and wouldn't piss on a person to put out a fire on them, if they senselessly harmed animals.

The same thing goes for young children. Although frankly, I am not really sure if I care for children in general (some of them are very likable, while others are not), non the less, when I am around young children, I find in myself what appears to be a natural desire to protect them from any kind of harm, even if I don't know them.
I believe that I would put myself in mortal danger for the sake of ANY child if there was a need, but would only do that for adults who are family or close friends usually.

Yet, I couldn't care less what happened to children CARTOON characters, or who got their jollies off by watching said cartoons. BUT, there would be a very very big difference if they crossed the line from CARTOONS to flesh and blood. AND only then, would I feel that the issue needed swift, and harsh intervention.

Another important thing in this discussion, I believe, is how we view a persons agenda behind their words.

Personally, I believe T.C when he states that he is NOT attempting to protect child pornography, but instead he is upset by the liberties that are being lost to what he might consider senseless censorship, because I feel the same way.

I KNOW for a fact, that not only would I not harm a child (unless they were aiming to shoot me with a gun for example), but I wouldn't harm anyone who did not desrve it. Yet often when the subject of abuse comes up, I do not get emotional. To me a subject, is not the same as an actual act.
On the other hand, I am very weary and suspicious of people who SHOW anger, and make a big production of it, when the discussion comes up. I am NOT in anyway referring to anyone here, since we are merely expressing opinions.

Too often I have seen people who take a very high stance verbally, and even legally against abuse, and other law breakers in general, but then in time, THESE people are eventually found out to be perpetrators themselves.
Kind of like the tough guys who bash homosexuals, but are later found to have homosexual tendencies themselves.

On a lighter subject, it's nice to see a thread that actually has some meaning and "bite" instead of so many of the common soap opera bullshit.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#6257 - 03/23/08 03:23 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Thank you Asmedious, you are much more elequent than I at getting that point across.

For the record, in case I've been misleading or unclear;

I do not defend child pornography, anything that exploits real children is wrong and the creators should be procecuted to the full extent of the law. Child molestation is nothing more than rape, however it's still RAPE. I have already said how much I detest rape in the past, and for good reason.

I have seen, albeit an extremely limited amount, of lolicon and it's really nothing special. I personally don't like it but I haven't any reason to deny anyone else the option of watching it.

I have a very idealistic outlook. I hold values that even I realise are more iconic than realistic. I know that defending free speech to such a level that I will defend the rights of people to promote hatred and bigotry is counterproductive but I am a man of my convictions and I feel I must keep to them. As my signature says, I preach what I practice, I use my freedom of speech every day, it is the thing I value the most, and because of this I must defend it. I hope people can understand my methods.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6284 - 03/23/08 11:58 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Is it bad for me to speak out, even for people I don't agree with, I'm not connected to or can even relate to? Maybe I just have an ideal to uphold.

Not if you do not mind associating with these people, fighting for their way, and having your motives questioned… You may do as you please…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Well I'm glad you're not writing the law then, because you'd be locking me up as well (hense the bold) and I would fight tooth and nail against you. The only way you'd be taking me down is dead.

Wow you would die for the freedom to watch and create kiddy porn cartoons… ;\) Bully for you…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Just because the general public says that me doing a fucking drawing is illegal doesn't mean I'm going to listen and neither should anyone else.

Do what you will… Be responsible for your actions… If you want to draw kiddy porn so be it… Don’t get caught and if you do be a man about it…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I defend their right to do what they want and I will KILL to defend that right.

What is the problem TC with just adding that those young girls in that animated porn are all over the age of 18? Ruin the mood for you?

Ever hear of Cherry Poppers? The short version is it was a video porn series that portrayed women to be young virgins… They tried to make it illegal and failed due to all the actresses being of legal age…

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#6287 - 03/24/08 12:35 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
Greetings Asmedious,

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
Personally, I don't care either way, if anyone enjoys CARTOONS of ANY KIND.

I really do not care either way myself… If asked to vote on it or if it mattered to me then we know I say fuck their perverted pleasure… As it really is a non-invasive art form it will go back underground where it belongs… In reality it’s only in the news because it has become popular and mainstream…

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
However, what I find unsettling, is that a group of people have so much power, that they can ban a cartoon genere.

I hope this is not a news flash to you… Did you know about the “do not play” list sent to radio stations after 9-11? Did you know about the government paying off TV shows to add anti drug messages to their programming? Do you know what the Federal Reserve is? The few rule the many…

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
I have never seen Lolicon, nor would seek out to watch it. However, I find it disturbing, that I am FORBIDDEN, from doing so, when it would harm no one, if I chose to view it.

You are forbidden from possessing marijuana in your state… You are forbidden from owning assault weapons… People still own things like grenades rockets and such and others even smoke pot… If there is nothing about lolicon that doesn’t hurt anyone. Then one can live a peaceful and productive life covered in cartoon kiddy porn till the day they die…

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
To me, a cartoon, is not real in any shape or form. It's drawings made into animation.

Right and to have pathways in the brain that attract you to children or renditions of children well maybe they need help…

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
I am not really sure if I care for children in general (some of them are very likable, while others are not), non the less, when I am around young children, I find in myself what appears to be a natural desire to protect them from any kind of harm, even if I don't know them.

I really cannot stand children, yet they seem to know it and it makes them like me… Go figure… What disgusts me about child molestation is the sickness that makes someone attack something unable to protect itself from them… For any other reason than survival… Child or dog it matters little to me...

 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
Another important thing in this discussion, I believe, is how we view a persons agenda behind their words.

Personally, I believe T.C when he states that he is NOT attempting to protect child pornography, but instead he is upset by the liberties that are being lost to what he might consider senseless censorship, because I feel the same way.

What I believe about TC is unimportant… What is important is seeing that fighting for such rights connects you to said people and opens your motives up for questioning… To go into a battle such as this without thinking it through to this point is not very intelligent…

Just my opinion…

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#6291 - 03/24/08 01:09 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
Points taken Ta2zz, and I agree with most of them. But let me ask you this, at what point do we say enough is enough, and we do not bow down to any more laws that are intruding on our liberties/privilages without at least expressing our disdain for them?

In regards to the pot, assult weapons and cartoon kiddy porn, I am not all that concerned for either one. Frankly, I'm too lazy to lobby for any of those privilages, nor do I have the time. However, it appears to me, that if at some point society, inluding my lazy ass don't at least protest in some way against the push towards, what appears to me, almost a monarchy like state, then one day the lord of the village will be fucking our soon to be brides, because they will insist that it is within their rights to do so. I know that I exaggerate, but you get my drift I'm sure.

Simply put, I find it very frustrating to see so many "freedoms" being taken away, and the general population just laying down and accepting it witout even a whimper against it. Although I am guilty of being passive myself.

 Quote:
What is important is seeing that fighting for such rights connects you to said people and opens your motives up for questioning… To go into a battle such as this without thinking it through to this point is not very intelligent…


Very true. Yet, no one could ever accuse me of fighting intelligent battles. Many times I have jumped into the flame, knowing that I was going to get burned up and ripped apart, just for the fact that I didn't want to give up when I felt pushed, even if giving up would have been easier, and to my benefit in the long run. Too much pride and not always picking my battles wisely, is indeed one of my character flaws. But screw it, when all is said and done, we'll all be worm food in the end, and then we can just laugh about it all.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#6292 - 03/24/08 02:00 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Asmedious, Ta2zz, TC, All,

I think Ta2zz and Asmedious brought up a valid point (even if somewhat accidently).

Isn't the real power or worth, when fighting for freedoms in picking the best fight?

Recntly as you may remember I started a thread on the state I live in trying to reduce freedoms because of the perceived threat caused by outlaw motorcycle gangs (or our Premiere's obsession with them anyway).

Now I did write to my local politition and lobbied to help raise awareness among many a motorbike rider that we were all being classes in this legislation as 'criminals'.

Anyway, if given the choice of what I was going to put my effort into fighting against the taking of liberties, then I would only choose to fight the fight for things I at least thought effected me personally or that I agree on.

Why should I waste my personal time in fighting for freedom of speech for the KKK or cartoon kiddy porn. There are no real positives for either of these things.

Now, I don't like unions, but I would stand up and fight for my right to belong to one.

See the difference? The battles you choose to take up do reflect on who you are and no-one can take up EVERY SINGLE BATTLE. You would soon loose credibility or time if you were to do so.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#6294 - 03/24/08 02:38 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Anyway, if given the choice of what I was going to put my effort into fighting against the taking of liberties, then I would only choose to fight the fight for things I at least thought effected me personally or that I agree on.


Because, as I see it, once the "powers" start taking away peoples rights, it is like the "snow ball" effect. They start rolling, and taking away more and more privilages, at a greater speed.

It is possible, that by the time you recognize that one of the things which you stronly believe in, is being taken away, and no one has stepped up and attempted to stop this power, they will be so strong, that you will be swepped aside, or even worse, because there will be no one left to stand with you.

 Quote:
See the difference? The battles you choose to take up do reflect on who you are and no-one can take up EVERY SINGLE BATTLE. You would soon loose credibility or time if you were to do so.


True. However, it's not about fighting different little battles, for one personal privilage at a time. It is about the WAR that is waged on civil liberites; at least in the United States.

Imagie if soldgers could chose the battles to fight in. Many might feel, that since one part of the country is being attacked, and they are not affected by it, there was no need to resist the enemy. After all, they, and their families were still safe. BUT...when the enemy was at their front doors, other soldgers would feel that they didn't have to fight, beause either they weren't threatened, or the enemy have already defeated them, because no one was there to back them up.

TC earlier posted that poem, or what ever you want to call it (you can scrawl back and see it if you wish), about what happens when people only fight their own personal battles that affect them, but not the war.

"Divide and conquer." When the Nazis herded the jews into concentration camps, most of the world didn't really care. They were not affected.
When they invaded Poland, other countries didn't want to get involved because it did not affect them. They believed that the Nazis would stop before they got to them. However, the Nazis got stronger and stronger, taking one country at a time.
Many don't realize how close the Germans actually came to world domination.

The same thing is happening to civil liberties. They are taking one at a time, at an ever increasing speed.

By the time they decide to take your privilage away to ride a motorcycle, you might very well be the only one left who cares about it, and the rest of us will either be defeated, discoraged, scared, or gone all together, to step up and say that YES, if you want to ride a bike then there is no logical reason not to let you.

What TC is trying to say (I belive), is that even if he was to hate motorcycles and the people who ride them, the powers that be would have to go through him to take that privilage away from you and your friends, because Civil Libreties are so much more important, then personal feelings or indifference about just one particular subject. (I am not trying to speak for TC, it's just how I read what he wrote, and I agree).
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#6298 - 03/24/08 04:19 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Asmedious]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
You have it exactly there Asmedious. The most important thing to me is freedom and liberty. I may not like what other people like but I would fight for their right to have it. The only times I've been divided on rights issues is in sports hunting. I believe that so long as you don't hurt anyone that you should be allowed to do whatever you want, but does this extend to animals... I personally believe it does, so I don't support sports hunting. I would support any freedom or right that doesn't hurt anyone (except the person doing it, if they want to do something that hurts themselves that's fine).

I know it's counterproductive to fight every fight, and stand up for every liberty that's attacked but I'm not fighting the law against lolicon individually, this is just one of the battles against the overall removal of liberty. I don't really care about cartoon porn, kiddy or otherwise, I watch real porn with a hot 19 year old blond girl, oooh, or maybe a redhead if I really feel the need. It may not seem like much but even being vocal is doing something. I voice my opinion online, on this and other forums, on my radio show, sure it's only public access but people listen to it and they download the podcast of it. I discuss things at the university debate hall. Just raising awareness is something.

It may seem like nothing to some people, it may make some closed minded people label me along side the people I defend but so what. I am extremely passionate about liberty and I feel I must defend it where I can. Even if it puts a major dent in my life.

Satanism has many rules and guidlines about doing things in such a way that you get the best possible result. Don't posture unless you can deliver, don't give in to counterproductive pride, responsibility to the responsible. I can see the points behind all of them, but the major point in Satanism is to do what you can to further your own happiness. To lay back and except any restriction on my freedoms and civil liberties would make me extremely unhappy. This is why I fight back, I can't bare to see my freedoms taken from me, they are the things that mean the most to me.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6315 - 03/24/08 05:02 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
...the major point in Satanism is to do what you can to further your own happiness. To lay back and except any restriction on my freedoms and civil liberties would make me extremely unhappy. This is why I fight back, I can't bare to see my freedoms taken from me, they are the things that mean the most to me.


Another "major point" regarding Satanism: you must also be intelligent enough to realize that the rest of the world may not agree with your idea freedom. Furthermore, a strong Satanist will realize that there may be consequences for certain actions that are deemed immoral, illegal, or undesirable by the moral majority of their society. A Satanist certainly focuses on their own success and desire. A Satanist will also graciously take responsibility for their actions and any consequences that may ensue.
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#6349 - 03/25/08 03:06 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Octavius]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I understand that Octavius, I agree that when it comes to this topic and anything related to liberty and freedoms I don't follow Satanic Principals. I agree with them, but I, quite illogically, refuse to follow them simply because my personal convictions mean more to me than the ideals put in place by Anton LaVey. I try to live by Satanic rules because I agree with them, however here I feel action is required, even if it gets me no-where.

Not everything we do in life is pushed by logic and reason, many times things are forced forward by passion and these are the things that are truly sacred to us.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6358 - 03/25/08 10:55 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Reading most of your past posts I know you are a man of your conviction even if those convictions hinder your progress… Such as not cutting your hair to get a job because you would be conforming… This is not a character attack as much as it is defining your character from the things you have told us… You seem to take things that can harm you to the extreme…

A few lines from your last few posts then…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
The most important thing to me is freedom and liberty.

What is more important your freedom and liberty or that of people that have nothing to do with you, yours, or your way? Is not your freedom and liberty the reason you decided to fight this fight? Do you not see how you threaten exactly that?

And please keep the poems for children’s bedtime stories… All it shows me is you do not comprehend the things you read in my posts…

“Muslims and the KKK mean little to me were it to be announced that they were to be gathered and removed it would mean nothing to me… If my card were called it would be time to move on…But if I did not see the warning signs then the joke is on me…” ~ta2zz

What does your poem offer that I have not already said?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
It may seem like nothing to some people, it may make some closed minded people label me along side the people I defend but so what.

You are the one being close-minded here… To think that the enlightened few are the majority…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I agree that when it comes to this topic and anything related to liberty and freedoms I don't follow Satanic Principals. I agree with them, but I, quite illogically, refuse to follow them simply because my personal convictions mean more to me than the ideals put in place by Anton LaVey.

Pity is all you get out of this lifestyle what was written by Anton LaVey? If so perhaps some more worldly knowledge is needed… Anton LaVey has absolutely nothing to do with you sticking yourself, your family, and loved ones out there in your battle to save lolicon… In fact Anton said something like… If you have the passion to do such a thing then do it, but know what you are going into with open eyes and be responsible for what you do… In other words don’t think the world full of closed minded people know it…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I try to live by Satanic rules because I agree with them, however here I feel action is required, even if it gets me no-where.

I live by my rules… Just because they have so much in common with Satanism is why I am here…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Not everything we do in life is pushed by logic and reason, many times things are forced forward by passion and these are the things that are truly sacred to us.

We both understand the reason that sex with children is illegal, I think we can both agree on that… You have seemed to totally overlook my solution to this lolicon problem… Remember I admit I am not interested in the passion of a few demented individuals that need cartoon porn of children to complete their day…

I ask this again in full seriousness…

Why cannot the age of these girls be mentioned in the stories as being over 18 looking young?

Is it simply because it would ruin the mood TC? A simple solution that I think just might have its day in court?

One more question,

Can you legally carry a handgun where you live as a private citizen or are you denied that right?

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#6364 - 03/25/08 03:30 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
You first point is actually quite a valid assessment of my character, although saying that I have since cut my hair, short back and sides. Today I bought a new webcam so I'll post a picture later tonight.

I understand that I am putting myself at risk, risk of arrest particually, for defending people with socially unacceptable ideals but I still do it. I know it's hard for you to accept my reasoning and perhaps even unreasonable for me to expect you do defend the same ideals however you must agree that it is still an unfair and unjust law to ban any form of harmless personal activity and that it is a violation on the civil rights of the people, surely.

Now, to answer your questions.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Why cannot the age of these girls be mentioned in the stories as being over 18 looking young?

Is it simply because it would ruin the mood TC? A simple solution that I think just might have its day in court?


Because in some it would be an obvious lie. Some of the girls are like... 9 years old in these stories.

Secondly, in Japan the legal age for all sex related things is 14, including the age of models in porn. You can LEGALLY buy real porn with real 14 and 15 year old in it in Japan. So why would they make all the lolicon characters over 18. In fact, manga porn with characters over 14 years old is called hentai, it exists and is quite popular.

Perhaps it would ruin the mood. I'm not exactly a fan of such stuff but I imagine it's things like innocence, childish nature, small/non-existant breasts etc. that make it appealing to those that watch it. There is no such thing as an innocent 18 year old, if you can even find me an 18 year old virgin I'll be shocked. You can't play out the story of the girl who's never been kissed, never seen a guy naked, never touched anyone elses genitals, doesn't know the mechanics of intercourse etc. with an 18 year old because they've all fucked at least three guys in high school.

It may disgust you that people have these fantasies but think of it objectively. People know rape is illegal but wouldn't bondage and S&M be alot less fun if you had to ungag your partner and ask "Do you agree that this is consensual sex?" before penetration. It would completely destroy the mood. What's the point of a fantasy if you have to make a point of breaking the fucking fantasy right before the time.

Becides, this...

...ain't fucking fooling anyone.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Can you legally carry a handgun where you live as a private citizen or are you denied that right?


No, we can't, however you can kill someone alot easier with a handgun than a lolicon drawing. That said, I am against the current gun laws as well.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6684 - 03/30/08 12:31 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Can you legally carry a handgun where you live as a private citizen or are you denied that right?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
No, we can't, however you can kill someone alot easier with a handgun than a lolicon drawing. That said, I am against the current gun laws as well.


Then it seems like you have a bigger fight to fight than cartoon porn huh? On the flip side I was active 20 years ago on handgun support... Before the internet finding snippets in gun mags and the library making copies at 5 cents apiece to hand out to people in front of the local 7-11...

20 years later in my hometown/ state it is so much easier to obtain your handgun permit... As long as you are mentally fit and not a felon...

Just started to break in my new PT 145 by shooting 100 rounds of cheap ball ammo and 10 rounds of some hot +p defensive rounds through it... I forgot how expensive this habit can be...

Ta-Ta for now...

~T~

This also speaks

it's intention...
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#6720 - 03/30/08 06:03 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Can you legally carry a handgun where you live as a private citizen or are you denied that right?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
No, we can't, however you can kill someone alot easier with a handgun than a lolicon drawing. That said, I am against the current gun laws as well.


Then it seems like you have a bigger fight to fight than cartoon porn huh?

Depends really, I don't consider either more important that the other idealistically and although I would personally get more enjoyment out of legalising guns the laws make sense at least. Guns are primarily weapons, (people who call them tools are lying to themselves). Limiting weapons to the public makes sense, the laws are simply too strict here, but not necessarily intrinsically bad.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7217 - 04/04/08 11:17 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Can you poke holes in my logic?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Depends really, I don't consider either more important that the other idealistically and although I would personally get more enjoyment out of legalising guns the laws make sense at least.

Guns are primarily weapons, (people who call them tools are lying to themselves). Limiting weapons to the public makes sense, the laws are simply too strict here, but not necessarily intrinsically bad.

Lets look at the first half of that statement…

Since you would enjoy the right to carry a gun more than drawing or whacking off to lolicon… Do you not understand why the fight for gun laws in your country is more important to you, than those that limit kiddy porn anime? Will a drawing of a defenseless young girl protect your life?

On to the second half…

Let us define what a tool is shall we?

“A tool is a device or a piece of equipment that typically provides a mechanical advantage in accomplishing a task or enables the accomplishment of a task not otherwise possible.

Link

If my task at hand is to point at an animal and need or desire it to die no matter were I hunting for food or defending my life or my family then the TOOL to use would be a gun… Therefore to try to say people who say guns are tools are lying to themselves is simply bashing another group of people… Why? Does it make you feel bigger?

Gun laws keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens… Once we stop believing that which we are force fed through the media you can see this… Anyone who believes that a gun law will keep a gun out of the hand of a criminal is outright stupid…

This thought continued here: Gun Control Laws

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#7229 - 04/05/08 03:08 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I agree, gun laws do only keep the guns away from the law abiding citizens, I agree that the gun laws are stupid and should change because otherwise only criminals get guns. However it's a fucking weapon not a damn tool. I can except that it is a device created with the sole purpose to be able to make the job of killing some other poor sod much easier. Yes weapons are a sub category of tools, but they are not tools as it is colloquially accepted, that's why we have a different word for it. People who call guns tools are people who are trying to convince others that their primary function is not to kill people, is not that of weaponry. It fucking is. (and no, guns where not designed for hunting, that was the bow and arrow, guns where designed to kill people).

As for the main argument. There are plenty of people fighting for gun laws to change. Plenty. I don't need to be the voice because it already has a voice. Lolicon doesn't. I will side with the voice if it came down to a vote, and I would rally along side them if there was something I could be a part of but I won't go out of my way. Why? Because you can't fight every single cause yourself. If someone else if fighting on that side of the battlefield, maybe you should fight of the other side and protect their flank. After all what if they're fighting for gun laws to be changed, and lolicon is made illegal, then drawing it for personal use is a crime, then they make thinking about it illegal... now we have thought police... these thought police link sex with violence, now thinking about guns is banned... oh, we're fucked. Yes it could be claimed that's a reductio ad absurdum, but it explains my point at least.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7273 - 04/05/08 09:49 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

A few big words will not win a debate…

So let me get this straight you disagree with this definition of a tool?

“A tool is a device or a piece of equipment that typically provides a mechanical advantage in accomplishing a task or enables the accomplishment of a task not otherwise possible.” Link

Wrenches are another sub category of tool so are pencils, butter knifes, tattoo machines, etc… I believe it has been a long while since man could only point to various objects and say tool… Same as anything I just mentioned can be used as a weapon a gun has a primary purpose, it makes a lousy hammer but can be used if absolutely needed… ;\)

While some tools can have secondary uses lolicon is never a tool…

“Adversus solem ne loquitor”

Understood?

Good luck in your battles…

Peace

~T~

“Absit invidia”
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#7294 - 04/06/08 05:21 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
The thought police will never happen. Acting on a subject is the crime always.

I mean in this day and age, you can't get anyone really arrested or stopped unless they actaully DO something to you.

If they are just THINKING about it, you and the police will actually never know, as long as you don't ACT on those thoughts, nobody else knows.

Maybe that's what makes drawing pedophelia so difficult to say is ok.

It's drawing something immoral. I don't for one minute think that we should allow people to start drawing say rape cartoons, because the act is invading somebody else's will. It's intent.

If someone is committing their thoughts of a subject to paper, isn't he then ACTING on said thought. So maybe it should be illegal to DRAW lollicon, but not to VIEW it.

After all, seducing a child is still a crime. It doesn't have to be horrific and cruel and unpleasant to be peodaphilia. If you are actually saying that it is to ok make love to children even under the age of fourteen, then I would have to dissagree completely.

Children under that age are not allowed to drink for a reason and they are not allowed to have sex before a certain age for a reason also. They just aren't old enough to make the healthy and best decision for themselves when it comes to this. Anyone that would take advantage of this no matter how sweetly, is infringing on that childs well being and therefore harming said child in the processs. So if the act itself should be a crime, then the drawing of said action should be illegal also.

So there you go if you have bothered to get all the way through this, for the future, you'll know when I'm on here stoned. :P

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#7299 - 04/06/08 07:21 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
OK Zeph... So people who draw pictures, or to take this further make films, that involve anyone stabbing or shooting someone else should be locked up because ACTING on violent tendencies and killing people is illegal so DRAWING is should be illegal. That's just plain retarded... please try again, it was pathetic.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7303 - 04/06/08 11:38 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
So people who draw pictures, or to take this further make films, that involve anyone stabbing or shooting someone else should be locked up because ACTING on violent tendencies and killing people is illegal so DRAWING is should be illegal. That's just plain retarded... please try again, it was pathetic.

Your fight here is now reductio ad absurdum... \:\)

What have you done since you started this thread here... You post so much that I am sure you have done very little in the real world... Also mmorpg’s such as EVE take time, a lot of time… Spend too much time in the fantasy of EVE and you miss out on real world skills…

Do you hand out home made fliers to spread the word that these rights are being taken away? Do you go out of your way to make the public aware of what you stand for?

You claim “I have written to my local MP and have had a local debate in the university halls in my town to try and get people to look at this issue because many people don't even know it's an issue.”

To most it is not an issue…

Do these two things you have done make you feel accomplished? Did calling the local MP and debating in your university do anything? How many have you made aware of the gross injustice (in your eyes) being done? Have you even spread the word to hundreds or is it more like a handful of people…

300 single sided copies should cost around 20 USD… Then pick a store ask if its ok to hand out your flier in their parking lot and in an hour or two you have informed 300 people… As to what stores to do this in front of, I would suggest that you stay away from bars and/or children’s stores… You might want a friend along with you to videotape the event and protect your ass from disgruntled fathers… Be prepared, this is the front of the battle you have chosen… Talking here does nothing towards your supposed flanking of the enemy…

You in another thread talk against anonymous fighting scientology using the disinformation being spread of what the group does as your guide… Yet they have the balls to stand outside and say what they feel, they are not hiding behind a computer screen… They make and put videos on the internet for all to see… What was is you have done again?

I think were this war, you’re in line for an other than honorable discharge…

Good Day

~T~

Go do something besides wasting your time here trying always to prove you are right…


Edited by ta2zz (04/06/08 11:43 AM)
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#7332 - 04/06/08 05:48 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Drawing of stealing innocence from a child for the gratification of some sick fuckers sexuallity should be illegal.

Asmedious took away the only good reason I could see for Lolicon when he pointed out that watching porn doesn't stop him from wanting to have sex with real women, so therefore I think you are actually wrong about making this the poster discussion for freedom of speach.

That's MY opinion, so calling it retarded just shows you to be the spiteful little bitch I've seen lurking all along.

Bye bye,

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#7333 - 04/06/08 05:49 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
PS, stop being angry at me. I didn't take away your blue nametag!!

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#7334 - 04/06/08 05:49 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
rob_church Offline
member


Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
as much as tc annoys the crap out of me i have to agree partly with him here.

zeph the thought police to me is the idea that people have given up so many liberty and freedoms that they can not even think on sex drugs or rock and roll. when it becomes illegal to draw something ,what is next soon you cant draw or make art in reaction to violence,sex or anything else the religious Reich doesn't want to see in the world ,the scary thing to me is when they can make a drawing illegal (no matter what it is)say even a pic of Mohammed. what is next. no more violent video games,movies,art i have seen some beautiful art that has those things in it, take the art of chad michal ward that lady chaos posted beautiful stunning dark.i see it this way. indulgence instead of abstinence if its not hurting anyone i think a person should be able to indulge in what ever fetish they choose and if that is drawing cartoons so be it.the whole thing that scares me about this is when they can make a drawing illegal what is next. as an artist i use violence and sex in my art perhaps this is why i care.i despise to be censored and at this rate it wont be that long before that is the world we live in granted alot of media is censored but not all.

this is in my opinion the core of being an individual not a clone. the clone will spew out their generic garbage they have been programmed to like say or draw.the individual goes against this mass bland conformity and shows the world for what it truly is or how they see it. in their art or chosen rebellion.when all art and media is controlled and individuality is punished to such an extent.all we will see is clones. witch will feed more conformist behevoiur.really the loss of free expression is what im trying to say but not acomplishing very well.
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#7342 - 04/06/08 08:42 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
The thought police will never happen. Acting on a subject is the crime always.

I mean in this day and age, you can't get anyone really arrested or stopped unless they actaully DO something to you.

If they are just THINKING about it, you and the police will actually never know, as long as you don't ACT on those thoughts, nobody else knows.


I beg to differ. The thought police are well in force. Maybe not in Aus. But they are here in the States under the guise of the FCC. Many a radio personallity has been fined, fired, or suspended for doing what they were hired to do. Speak their mind. Offensive to some, but that is what the radio station brought them on board for. Don Imus, The Greaseman, and Howard Stern have incurred steep penalties, or caused their parent company to, by speaking their mind. In my area, radio has undergone a dramatic change in recent years as a result. Some of my favorite programs have to tread very lightly, and tone it down, so as to stay on the right side of the fence with the FCC.

It isn't necessarily the FCC or the government that is driving this train. It's any group with a voice that feels they have been offended and have the voice, money, and media attention to draw a crowd. If I were to get on the radio and announce that all ILLEGAL aliens are breaking the law and should be arrested and thrown out of the country, rest assured every hispanic interest group would be calling for my resignation and protesting the radio station and sponsors. Right or wrong, Don Imus called a women's basketball team mainly comprised of less than attractive black girls "nappy headed hos". He was hired to be abrasive. He and the stations that hired him, knew what kind of on air personality they were getting when he was hired. I'm sure management didn't have a care in the world when those words went out over the air. It wasn't until the special interest groups and a few certain trouble makers started calling for his head and boycott that management perked up and took interest.

The thought police are everywhere, represented by any special interest group that happens to take offense to whatever you might think and go on record stating. If, as a Satanist, I was to go on record to the local newspaper and try to point out the misconceptions of our religion, I could incur a hellstorm from the Christian community. I could have people standing outside my house picketing, making loud noise at night, harrassing my kids, following me to work, etc. Should I take sides with the KKK for whatever reason, even though not a member but agree with an issue, the same would be true. If I where a paid comedian, like Micheal Richards, who happens to utter the "N" word at some hecklers during a show, and is now a scapegoat for all white people, I would lose my income, be shunned, and no amount of atonement would satisfy the thought police. So yes, the thought police are very real, very active, and a real threat to whatever freedom of speach you might have thought you had.
_________________________
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#7369 - 04/07/08 03:52 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: fakepropht]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Good point. I forget how the US works at time. This is when our Aussie apathy isn't such a bad thing.

I remember when I was working in the Penny Arcade Sex and Censorship Show, back in the 90's in Australia and she had this line that was about the difference with American and Australia is that we got all the criminals and you guys got all the fanatics.

I forget this sometimes. Whilst the above line is meant in jest, there is a certain amount of truth to to statement.

Americans have always had that 'fanatical' edge. Another perfect example would be bombing abortion clinics etc.

So then I guess you couold say, in essense, that freedom of speach is driving the thought police somewhat? Your right to protest has outweighed the right to have your say in the first place?

Not dissagreeing, just adding more thoughts on the matter.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#7399 - 04/07/08 07:56 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I was thinking about this issue as an artist, as a woman, and as a satanist.

Heres the deal...

Most people are stupid, and impulsive. They do stupid shit when sober, and worse when drunk. The masses mostly dont know or want to take responsiblility for the outcome of their actions.

I want to be able to create and view any damn thing I can think of, anything I am concerned or curious about and or create.

Because stupid people are influenced by dumb stupid things, it makes it worse for those of us who can actually see the difference between a furry anima cat (such as fritz the cat) and a real person who needs to shave.

Most of the laws recently, well last 30 years are mostly meant to protect stupid people from themselves. Because a lot of stupid people need extra protection, we get laws that limit things that were not necessary before.

hot warnings on coffee cups
seat belts
helmets
litter
smoking
gambling off shore
drugs
pornography
noise laws
etc...

There is no real solution, and our laws are getting worse and limiting more and more of our freedoms.

Sometimes I wonder is voting or sending money to the wwf really enough, or is it time to do something more....

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#7421 - 04/08/08 11:25 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: fakepropht]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Greetings fakepropht...

Ok let me point out where what you are saying is not true and only strengthens what Zeph has said… The thought police do not exist yet… One can always speak ones mind but in doing so this is now an action not a thought…

Imus could have sat there thinking to himself look at these ugly gorilla looking mud girls… Everything would be fine but no it was his action of speaking the thought nappy-headed hoes that got him in trouble… I mean seriously is that something to say about a group that is at least trying to do something to better themselves even if it is only a sport? Imus was wrong more wrong for apologizing… It is that simple…

Speaking ones mind and freedom of speech have always been governed best by commonsense… The laws of slander, libel, and defamation of character prove this…

The day the real thought police exist is a dreary day indeed… Until then the action of speaking ones mind is still an action that may or may not have criminal repercussions…

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#7473 - 04/10/08 10:08 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: ta2zz]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
The second thing to note is that we are in fact free to speak as we like. Hence, free speech differs from some other forms of freedom of action. If the government wishes to stop citizens performing certain actions, riding motor bikes for example, it can limit the freedom to do so by making sure that such vehicles are no longer available; current bikes could be destroyed and a ban can be placed on imports. Freedom of speech is a different case. A government cannot make it impossible to say certain things. The only thing it can do is punish people after they have said, written or published. This means that we are free to speak or write in a way that we are not free to ride outlawed motorbikes. This is an important point; if we insist that legal prohibitions remove freedom then we have to hold the incoherent position that a person was unfree in the performance of an action. The government would have to remove our vocal chords for us to be unfree to speak in the same way as those who want to ride motorbikes are unfree.

A better way to think about freedom of speech is to say that the threat of a sanction makes us less free than we would be without the threat because the threat makes it more difficult and more costly to exercise our freedom. Such sanctions take two major forms. The first, and most serious, is punishment by the state, which usually consists of a financial penalty, but occasionally can stretch to imprisonment. The second threat of sanction comes from social disapprobation. People will often refrain from making statements because they fear the ridicule and moral outrage of others. For example, one could expect a fair amount of these things if one made racist comments during a public lecture at a university. Usually it is the first type that sparks the most controversy but John Stuart Mill provides a strong warning about the chilling effect of the latter form of sanction.

We seem to have reached a paradoxical position. I started by claiming that there can be no such thing as a pure form of free speech: now I seem to be arguing that we are, in fact, free to say anything we like. The paradox is resolved by thinking of free speech in the following terms. I am, indeed, free to say what I like, but the state and other individuals can make that freedom more or less costly to exercise. The issue, therefore, boils down to assessing how cumbersome we wish to make it for people to say certain things. The best way to think about this is to ask whether speech should be protected rather than to ask whether it should be prohibited. This leads us to the recognition that we can and should regulate speech, but ultimately we cannot prevent it if the person is dedicated to making the statement.

Borrowed from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Perhaps I should have used the term "Speech Police". Yes, I can think any damn thing I want. It isn't until I verbalize that thought, that I face reaction. When implants or scans are made possible to ascertain our toughts, then we will truly have "thought police". Maybe the homeless bum on the corner with the placards and tin foil around his head is on to something greater than we give them credit for.

I find the greater offense being that a person can not speak their opinion, whether in private or in public, without facing serious repercussions. Where would our nation be if this principle were held to today's standard 250 years ago? Oh wait, you just faced death. How is it that Richard Pryor built a career out of racial humor and is considered one of the greatest comics ever, yet white comics are vilified for the same/opposite humor?

Morgan, you are spot on. We have built a justice system to protect the stupid from themselves. We have instituted a system that won't allow a person to speak on offensive statement. I guess our next great comic genius will only tell jokes like "how many persons does it take to change a light bulb? I don't know". "One day I was on the playground and my pants fell down". Raucous applause. Yippee.
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#8105 - 04/22/08 10:11 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: fakepropht]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
well read most of the theard, "Hentai" is not really the usage, in Japan its called "Ero-...." ie "Ero manga/anime etc". being part of the fansub community i thought i give my 2 cents. Loli comes from Lolita, the famous book.

Hentai is used a negative, something like "perverted" or whatever. hence they use Ero , being erotic.

 Quote:
Now I know USA and Australia have banned lolicon but currently UK, Sweeden and now Spain, Canada and New Zealand are discussing it.


Its already banned for the most part, well "explicit" loli content is already banned in, sweeden, and the UK i think. Most Danbooru's remove "explicit" loli content nowadays.
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#8257 - 04/28/08 07:42 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: blackdragon31560]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
It's not yet banned in the UK, I know as I've been keeping an eye on this issue for a while. I would see it as a major step back in our development as free thinking people if it ever was banned.

Oh... and yeah, I came back for a bit, don't know if I'll be staying long, probably be a lot less than it used to be.
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#8259 - 04/28/08 08:17 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Oh... and yeah, I came back for a bit, don't know if I'll be staying long, probably be a lot less than it used to be.

10 days can hardly be called leaving TC... How is the service treating you?

~T~
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#8271 - 04/29/08 03:16 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
 Quote:
would see it as a major step back in our development as free thinking people if it ever was banned.


An update on the related subject of 'extreme pornography' which I mentioned above. This absurd, moralising piece of legislation is set to become law as of next week, making the possesion of certain taboo images illegal -- even if said images are of wholly consenting adults.

When does kinky porn become illegal?
(BBC Magazine)

Stag

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#8326 - 05/01/08 08:16 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Stag]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Wow... Well honestly Stag. I am extremely upset with my country for that. Reading such an article, it's depressing. I plan to protest this publicly.

I'm honestly at a loss as to what to say. I always thought the UK would be more reasonable about these kinds of things. I was wrong.
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#8328 - 05/01/08 12:57 PM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: Stag]
psiren Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Spain
I've just read that article, I'm at a loss for words as to how pissed off this kind of shit makes me so I'll stick with 'fucking pissed off'.
Lord Hunt says it will only apply to images that are "grossly offensive and disgusting". By who's criteria? How can 'offensive and disgusing' be measured?

I'm also in agreement with pretty much everything Tornado Creator has said on this thread.
I can't see how looking at drawings of underage people can be considered alongside real child abuse as a crime any more than looking at drawings of murder, watching films depicting murder etc. can be considered criminal.

It's pedo panic, no one wants to think that there are people around us who get off on the idea of doing it with kids but there are. More than there are acting on it. So long as they're not harming anyone who cares? If a cartoon provides someone with a few jollies that they wouldn't get otherwise, I'm all for it.

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#76636 - 05/25/13 07:53 AM Re: Lolicon Illegal?! [Re: TornadoCreator]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6684
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
My argument is simply to treat people who enjoy lolicon as child molesterers is wrong. It's entirely unjust to pass the same sentence on someone who has a drawing on their computer as you would someone who has raped a school girl. It outrages me at the injustice.


I reviewed the Documentary Film Are All Men Pedophiles? , and Lollies are covered a bit. American Society is often exploiting children to protect them from harm. Child-abuse was a topic that was hush-hush for a long time. The awareness campaigns were stepped up in the early 80's and some speculate that its a byproduct of the SRA scare and Satanic Panic. Thing is, America itself is practicing a form of Satanism by using these notions to manipulate the public into taking certain actions. Whether that be fostering proverbial brown-coats, or celebrating the carnal nature of man.

A good portion of the film discusses the fashion industry and various forms of materialism (cartoons/comics just being one example) that exploits children. It also explores the natural progression of sexual maturity and the appeal of sexualizing children. Lollies are harmless cartoons, but the focus on them falls within the realm of policing behavior. It seeks to demonstrate the harm it can do. Lolicon has also created other trends, such as the Loli pillows that are called the 'Pedo-pillow',men interact with it like an artificial companion.

Facebook was an ideal place to watch the behavior of users that would 'see' men favoring Loli imagery. I watched groups form that aimed to harass a person until they were suspended from Facebook. It didn't stop there. Even after the suspension, Wordpress was used to erect sites to identify men using this imagery as 'proof' of pedophilia. Wordpress was a platform used to give it press, then sharing on various Social Media accounts like Linkdin, Twitter, Google+, Rip-off Report, etc. Some would take it up a notch, and share that information with employers to get these folks fired from their jobs (and I saw that one man was in fact fired).

Moral policing is fairly common on Social Networking. Some argue that the people that share their love of Lolicon are ruining it for everyone else. Maybe they are, but I think the real harm comes from creating more restrictions and laws. This comes from the general population that scream from the roof tops about it.



If you're interested check out my podcast: Satan Police...Are they coming for you? Satanic Brown-coats!

Even self-styled Satanists do it. It's more common than people are willing to admit.
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