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#60104 - 10/17/11 09:58 AM Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: Bullshit or feasible?
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I've long been in favor of a consumption-based tax system. There are too many people who stay off the income-tax radar by getting paid under the table, are on welfare or are coming to the US illegally and not having to pay a cent. This just places the burden on the rest of the citizenry.

Everyone has to buy goods. Rich people, illegals, the middle-class and the poor. A consumption tax would level the playing field, get rid of the convoluted tax codes which make it too easy to write off goods for business purchases, favor married couples with dependents over single people, and save everyone a great deal of time, money, headache and anxiety.

What are your thoughts?

Some links in case you're not familiar with Cain or his 9-9-9 plan:

Herman Cain's "999 Plan": The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Can Herman Cain's 999 Plan Work?
Herman Cain's '999 plan': long overdue tax reform or job killer?
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#60133 - 10/17/11 02:42 PM Re: Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: Bullshit or feasible? [Re: Nemesis]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
member


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
a 9% national sales tax would:
1.) drive more customers onto the internet in an effort to dodge taxes, away from brick and mortar stores who collect local sales taxes.
2.) drive more customers to make their purchases outside the United States, in addition to customers who already purchase their pharmaceuticals in Canada or Mexico, and to wealthy customers who already travel and make purchases in tax free/VAT free shops
3.) fall much heavier on lower and middle income people who already struggle to purchase food, clothing and shelter.

eliminating taxes on capital gains would
1.) further undermine the U.S. credit rating, because the U.S. dollar is not backed by anything other than the federal government's ability to collect taxes--and wealthy investors have far more money than lower and middle income people who actually work for a living.
2.) encourage sloth and parasitic behavior rather than productive, creative and innovative activities.
IMAO
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Fly for your lives! A great magician comes! He summons armies from the earth itself! ~ ArabianNights

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#60135 - 10/17/11 02:58 PM Re: Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: Bullshit or feasible? [Re: dust-e sheytoon]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
member


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
By "wealthy investors" I meant the passive investors who collect what their financial managers bring to them. The traders, brokers and creators of financial instruments definitely work, and often long hours. They are creative in their own way, but they are more the form than the content. The form has been marketed as a product, but really the product is often the debt slavery of the customer who were deceived or deluded into thinking they were purchasing a product rather than "junk." Selling enslavement is inventive in a way, but is it a sustainable business model?
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Fly for your lives! A great magician comes! He summons armies from the earth itself! ~ ArabianNights

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#60221 - 10/19/11 09:58 AM Re: Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: Bullshit or feasible? [Re: Nemesis]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
I dunno, my initial impression - I have not researched in any detail yet - is that this is not really the part of the economy the US should be worrying about at this particular time.

Quick thoughts overall (again, not having done much research):
- The primary economic issue right now is jobs. This seems like yet another "lower taxes == more jobs" plan, wrapped up in a clever sales pitch. That's bad because all the attention is on the "clever" and none on the "jobs".
- The secondary economic issue is the US spends more than it takes in, and we're in debt. This plan doesn't change the amount coming in, and doesn't address debt (directly).

Just those two right there make it seem to me a lot of work, hassle, and unknowns, for relatively little gain.

Other random thoughts:
- States still have income and sales taxes. States will also have to start paying the 9% federal sales tax on things they buy, meaning their costs will go up ...
- It seems everybody in the supply chain will also have increased costs, meaning the "base" price of items at the point of end-consumer purchase will also increase.
- Those on the low income side, many of whom don't pay income tax now, will now pay 9%, and see their sales tax go up.
- Those same folks would get "prebate" checks every month, which is essentially forced welfare for all of them. I'd love to be running the banks that win that contract - guaranteed fees and charges on a huge population forever. It's close to economic slavery, and I can't imagine they'll be happy about it. And it'll cost the gov't extra money to run the whole scheme, too.
- Changing the incentives from consumption towards savings obviously means people spend less, thus less sales tax income, and less growth. Not sure that's what we should be encouraging at this particular moment.
- It feels like it's shifting the federal tax burden down away from the higher income brackets - but I'd need to go find the actual numbers.
- Massive changes to complicated systems never go well. I'd be willing to wager it gets partially implemented and never finished. Which bits'll get done first?

As I said, just initial impressions. I could be wrong on some or all of those. The devil's in the details
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#60268 - 10/20/11 05:17 AM Re: Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: Bullshit or feasible? [Re: Autodidact]
FemaleSatan Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 556
Loc: The Dirty South
I like Herman Cain quite a bit. For a mainstream candidate he's my personal pick.

However, 9-9-9 I'm not a big fan of. It's to "pie in the sky" and wouldn't pass if he was elected. What about inflation? How do you stop people from getting around it, via the internet? How do you get non taxpayers on board with the plan?
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#60271 - 10/20/11 05:33 AM Re: Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: Bullshit or feasible? [Re: FemaleSatan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Here in Tennessee, 9-9-9 would mean another 9% onto our already high sales tax... the state tax doesn't go away.

Of course, we still have no state income tax. Yet.
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#63221 - 01/01/12 12:40 AM Re: Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: Bullshit or feasible? [Re: Jake999]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
With Cain out of the race, this is nothing but an observation:
His 9-9-9 plan was meant to be a transition phase to a Fair Tax style system; however, Gary Johnson quite rightly asked, "why the unnecessary step?"

It's clear to anyone who wished to see, Cain was in the race to sell books; like Gingrich. Neither candidate has the state-level organization to wage a legitimate campaign. Both focus on promoting their books more than any comprehensive political agenda.

9-9-9 was just a catchy gimmick. Swap Cain for the zombie of Billy Mayes and you've got the right picture.

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