Page 1 of 3 123>
Topic Options
#60463 - 10/26/11 04:04 PM real satanism
arjunasAscent Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
http://www.nineangles.info/origin-satan-9.html

I stumbled upon some content on the ONA. Some of it is trash, but the critique on modern Satanism is spot on. The section entitled "The Magian Nature of Modern Occultism" posits that the Temple of Set and various such satanic organizations don't embrace the true "sinister" nature of darkness which beckons it's children to live it. Whether inspired by these ideas or not the 3rd reich adhered to these fundamentally sound yet devastating and most would say abominable principles. I dare to say the Satanism most of us practice is watered down.


Edited by arjunasAscent (10/26/11 04:07 PM)
_________________________
Words are mere sound and smoke dimming the heavenly light - Goethe

Top
#60465 - 10/26/11 06:00 PM Re: real satanism [Re: arjunasAscent]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
I stumbled upon some content on the ONA. Some of it is trash, but the critique on modern satanism is spot on.


Fairly accurate.

 Quote:
The section entitled "The Magian Nature of Modern Occultism" posits that the Temple of Set and various such satanic organizations don't embrace the true "sinister" nature of darkness which beckons it's children to live it.


The fundamental problem with most would-be LHP groups is that they miss the essence of the Sinister, which is spiritual actualization via ritual and social transgression. There is nothing else to this. It flies over most peoples' heads because they are too busy fussing over philosophical details, esoteric correspondences, or the work of maintaining a public reputation.

 Quote:
Whether inspired by these ideas or not the 3rd reich adhered to these fundamentally sound yet devastating and most would say abominable principles.


Citation Needed. The LHP cannot be manifested in any herd-driven demagoguery like that practiced by the Nazi party. While espousing NS ideology in modern times can be a form of rebellion and breaking social taboos, in essence it is impossible to marry Satanism with any sort of political system.


Edited by The Zebu (10/26/11 06:01 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#60469 - 10/26/11 08:27 PM Re: real satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3773
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Here is the matter as I see it. Most would be LHP systems are simply ways of being just like everyone else, but feeling special in mindspace.

The adversary that begs and grovels before the master for acceptance and tolerance while following his rules is hardly an adversary.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#60470 - 10/26/11 08:53 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
arjunasAscent Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
Nice avatar, and well put.

Edited by arjunasAscent (10/26/11 09:05 PM)
_________________________
Words are mere sound and smoke dimming the heavenly light - Goethe

Top
#60471 - 10/26/11 09:22 PM Re: real satanism [Re: arjunasAscent]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
How can the Temple of Set be included in this critique?

The contemporary Temple of Set originated in a crisis in the Church of Satan; the constitution of the contemporary Temple of Set was premised on a rejection of the supposedly narrow Judeo-Christian worldview and its supposedly cartoon like Prince of Darkness and a step into another supposedly much larger and different universe.

The Temple of Set is Setian, not Satanic from what I understand.

How can any Satanic organisation – modern or not (whatever that means) - be included in this critique?

Satanism itself is regarded as a causal form (by ONA) and is a clothing or a decoration of a potentially sinister core or essence from what I understand. It is a way of manifesting something inherent and immobile.

If this same sinister core or essence is also manifested formally through National Socialism as you seem to suggest, then both Satanism and National Socialism are essentially meaningless as they have virtually no other reality beyond mere form. They just house an unchanging sinister essence and are therefore united at an acausal level only.

A real Nazi, in my opinion, understands that the so called form of National Socialism is the so called substance of National Socialism; they are one and the same thing and are not divisible at all. National Socialism was a form of life, arising within very idiosyncratic historical conditions, and with an idiosyncratic understanding of world, modernity, race and human nature.

The same is the case with Satanism. The form and the substance are the same thing and they cannot be rendered divisible in order to identify an acausal sinister substance abstracted from a formal manifestation - some ONA people don’t even call themselves Satanist’s and this is the honest approach I think.

The same can be said of any form which one can regard as sinister, such as Islamic Fundamentalism, or gang culture, or whatever. Stating that these ways of living are somehow causal formal manifestations of sinister essence tells us almost nothing of the real nature of these particular ways of living. They are just regarded as shells or tools.

I have nothing against people adopting tools in order to achieve tangible goals, but I would like it if Satanism was not just picked up and used as an empty form. There is a lot more to it then that.

No doubt someone will step in and state that it is all just praxis, or a way of living in distinction to memes, and sure that sounds good. Satanism is an adjective at one level. There’s more to being a Satanist though then just being sinister, as per someone else’s definition.

Top
#60472 - 10/26/11 09:28 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3773
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Indeed it is the substance behind the form that matters, and that's the point. Orgs like the CoS, ToS, etc are things that exist within the system, by its rules, by its laws. they are of it. That is the essence..the same essence as any other way of pretending the prison doesn't exist. There is another type of essence, though,something more antinomian and heterodox, represented by, in part, a different sort of Satanism.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#60475 - 10/26/11 10:13 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
arjunasAscent Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
 Originally Posted By: Octavian
How can the Temple of Set be included in this critique? The contemporary Temple of Set originated in a crisis in the Church of Satan; the constitution of the contemporary Temple of Set was premised on a rejection of the supposedly narrow Judeo-Christian worldview and its supposedly cartoon like Prince of Darkness and a step into another supposedly much larger and different universe.


The critique isn't centered around the immaturity of Setian views as much as the failure to manifest them in practice. Pls see Dan Dread's comment. The ToS is subject to social scrutiny as a visible tax-excempt religious corporation, their survival is subject to tight regulation (*1), as opposed to ONA nexions which abide by no rule other than their own (*2). I see Dan Dread beat me to the punch.

(*1) http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
(*2) http://www.nineangles.info/o9a-kulture-and-ethos.html

 Quote:
If this same sinister core or essence is also manifested formally through National Socialism as you seem to suggest, then both Satanism and National Socialism are essentially meaningless as they have virtually no other reality beyond mere form.


Setians, Satanists, and NSs have all sorts of perspectives, I think I probably didn't come through there. I only suggest they hold some common principles. As "The Zebu" pointed out the argument is weak without citations.
_________________________
Words are mere sound and smoke dimming the heavenly light - Goethe

Top
#60478 - 10/27/11 01:11 AM Re: real satanism [Re: arjunasAscent]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
You have misunderstood the position I have taken in relation to the Temple of Set; I personally believe you have misunderstood the nature of the Temple as well.

We are speaking about Satanism from two different points of departure: hence our difference of position.

There is nothing further to say at this time, as far as I can see. You will need to take the next step up.

Thanks for your time.

Top
#60484 - 10/27/11 01:00 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3773
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Truly, this is the most pretentious thing I have read in weeks, and that is really saying something.

I'm sure in your own mind, as you live and act just like everyone else does, you are a special snowflake.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#60485 - 10/27/11 01:43 PM Re: real satanism [Re: arjunasAscent]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
I think this discussion merits a clarification between what is meant by "Satanism" and "The Left Hand Path", respectively.

Satanism is generally based on an exoteric current of Satan, mythologically speaking. The Devil has always had some sort of a cultus in western culture, whether through identification with pagan deities like Hades, Dionysos, Woden, Bucca, or (as is much more common today) through rebellion within contemporary Christian ideology.

The Left-Hand Path, as I have stated before, is a philosophical and practical methodology based on social and religious transgression. One can adhere to almost any mythological context (Gnosticism, Shaivism, Buddhism) and practice the LHP, but in the modern West, Satanism is best equipped for this. Satanism, in the context of the LHP, is a vehicle for the Sinister. The two resonate so well together that they are often mistaken for being synonymous, but they are not.

This distinction has become more pronounced over time. In the past, simply embracing Satanism (even privately) was often taboo enough to trigger radical change within the individual. But in our current times, when Satanism is socially tolerated subculture, ideology alone is simply not enough.

LaVey and Aquino definitely broke the mold individually by daring to proclaim their allegiance in broad daylight and publicly challenging the lies of Nazarene society, but the same cannot be said for their respective institutions. The same public eye that brought their founders infamy also binds and restricts their greater activity, and ultimately, working in such groups is little more than foreplay.

The ONA has its flaws too, but by encouraging the individual to break moral, legal, and social boundaries, they ultimately cross the threshold that most other groups cannot.

Anyways, one of Dan's recent blogs clarified the issue better than I can.


Edited by The Zebu (10/27/11 01:44 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#60486 - 10/27/11 02:57 PM Re: real satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
That's indeed the big difference between ONA and all other forms of Satanism.

The other ones define a territory and say; this is the area where you can do whatever you want but there are the borders which you can't cross. ONA says; there are no borders and everything is your territory and it is solely up to you where and how far you go.

Top
#60489 - 10/27/11 09:39 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
Okay, fair enough I will put my view forward and set it to the flame.

It seems to me that the definition of Satan and Satanism as adversary and adversarial respectively has been so blown out of proportion, that there is almost nothing left to think about and hold to with regard to Satan and Satanism.

It should be stated that the definition of Satan as adversary and Satanism as adversarial is the Christian definition of Satan and the Christian definition of the actions of Satan.

As a Satanist I am primarily interested in the thinking and actions of Satan “himself” or “itself” rather than the interpretations of those actions and thinking by those outside Satan, by the enemy of Satan.

I want to get to Satan, get at the heart of Satan and look at the world through the eyes of Satan, rather than having to 100% conform to the stereotype viewpoint which the Christians’ and other RHP groups have used to define “him” and “his” actions.

The essence of the consciousness and actions of Satan is I-theism; I hold this position to be valid apriori.

I do not place a limit on this I-theism: it is ethical I-theism or it may even be metaphysical I-theism, though I have not apprehended it in this latter sense at this time.

A Satanist, to my way of thinking, would place themselves at the centre of their own universe, and accord themselves the absolute right to determine good and evil, according to their own needs, with at least some sort of understanding that they may come into conflict with social, and legal boundaries through their actions and hence may be held responsible by the society they live in. That’s the price that is paid.

I am not obliged to be adversarial, out of compulsion, in order to prove that I am Satanic to some group of people. I will never do this.

I may act in ways which are defined by others as adversarial or I may not. Their definition only concerns me, in so far, as I may be held responsible for the choices I make and act upon.

I may choose to fight the system or I may decide to become an architect of the system, or even a jailer who holds the keys, or I may not. I will do whatever I wish to do in order to further my cause with or without concern for others. This will depend on me, as always.

The ONA has come up and the suggestion has been made that it is somehow more free, less binding, and has less boundaries.

Everything which acquires a name and a set of symbols can be defined in some sense or else it would not have enough coherence to acquire a name in the first place. The ONA reminds me of the big bang in a lot of ways. It started with a core and exploded and slowly spread and sprawled outwards, forming itself into an array of discursive formations, and cells, and objects.

ONA, in my view, however still has a core literature which allows one to identify it, though it is seemingly de-centred and held together in the most tenuous way. I would argue that the below four articles define ONA at its most elementary level.

http://www.nineangles.info/ontology-satanism.html

http://www.nineangles.info/our-law-sinister-numen.html

http://www.nineangles.info/o9a-how-to-be-a-satanist.pdf

http://antonlong.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/the-core-ona-traditions/

Maybe other people will find others or dismiss these and replace them with others etc.

All of these articles are just tools to me. I can reject all of them or accept all of them as I need in order to get my shit done. Everything is just a tool which I can draw on.

Same with the principles of LaVey: the Sins, the Rules of the Earth, the Statements, and Pentagonal Revisionism are now all just tools to me to be used and rejected as I need them.

I am not interested in being defined as ONA or CoS or TOS or anything. I wish to be completely independent of all the groups now. They were useful as learning structure, but I wish for independence now, whilst respecting my roots.

ONA has a structure which defines it and those who associate with it and call themselves ONA or use its symbols, at some level, are bound by the structure which defines ONA at some level. I am not going to conform to ONA rules or any of the other rules of the organisations out there. It is all the same thing; belonging to a group, in any sense, requires one to conform to some sort of definition at some level, or else there is no group at any level.

Anyway, keep fighting the system and demanding that others do so as well, to prove their Satanic merits, and to receive the right definition from you. The more you do this, the more clearly you illustrate how you yourself have become the system within the Satanic Community itself. I respectfully refuse to play.

Top
#60490 - 10/27/11 09:52 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What you should understand about ONA is that it uses Satanism as a form but is not limited to it. Any structure you see in ONA is not there; there are no rules, there is no pre-defined form you are restricted to.

It's all about the essence.

Top
#60499 - 10/27/11 11:33 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3773
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Firstly, I-theism, or being ones own god, is not core to the LHP but something people that only half understood LaVey(through Blavatsky) took and ran with. The essay ' the god you save may be yourself' was a utilization of metaphor simply used to describe the relationship of autonomy to left hand path tradition.

Secondly, you seem to be speaking of Satan as if he is a real being and has been somehow pejoratively understood by those mean old white lighters. Satan only really ' exists' as a figurehead for antinomian and heterodox tradition, in the context of western society. 'He' is the symbol for transgression, breaking boundaries and utilizing taboos for personal gain. He is the representation of the things those ' other guys' dare not do, the places they dare not go. In that, the outside understanding of ' him' is quite correct, even if put into a negative context.

Thirdly, the ONA form of traditional Satanism is not only not core, but pretty much dead. Most ' Satanists' that fly under the ONA banner have a wholly different understanding of Satanism than offered therein

Lastly, you seem to have misunderstood ONA completely if you would imagine that ' fighting the system and demanding others do too.' is an accurate assessment of any within ONA; it isn't. It isn't a fight so much of a recognition that the rules only exist in your head, and there is no impetus to demand others do anything, only a recognition that most would be LHPers play by the exact same rules as every other mundane, which makes them indistinguishable in any meaningful way from any muslim, christian, or jew.

In conclusion, you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#60518 - 10/28/11 07:32 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
Your trying to tell me that I-theism is not core to the left hand path? Are you serious?

So after burning off systemic memetics through the ADM or some other experience/practice based form of adversarialism you do not adopt the right to determine good and evil yourself and hence do not adopt ethical I-theism?

I am pretty sure it was you who used to use the wording "autotheism through adversarial manifestation" before adopting your latest set of wording?

I am simply adopting this I-theism now as my right after burning off a shitload of memes.

I adopt it as a result of discovering dasein, or grasping the reality of will to power, or might as right, or might is right amongst carnal animals in an indifferent world.

I stated clearly that I have not apprehended a metaphysical I-theism at this time. Hence, and you should be able to understand the consequences of what I am saying here...

Satan as adversary/transgressor, according to the Western social definition? Sure, how good of you to have swallowed that memetic definition of the western system and based your whole identity/practice around it. So there's nothing more to Satan than this for you?

ONA: good luck with it. Please re-read my above posts carefully.



Edited by Octavian (10/28/11 07:47 AM)

Top
Page 1 of 3 123>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.033 seconds of which 0.003 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.