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#60463 - 10/26/11 04:04 PM real satanism
arjunasAscent Offline
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http://www.nineangles.info/origin-satan-9.html

I stumbled upon some content on the ONA. Some of it is trash, but the critique on modern Satanism is spot on. The section entitled "The Magian Nature of Modern Occultism" posits that the Temple of Set and various such satanic organizations don't embrace the true "sinister" nature of darkness which beckons it's children to live it. Whether inspired by these ideas or not the 3rd reich adhered to these fundamentally sound yet devastating and most would say abominable principles. I dare to say the Satanism most of us practice is watered down.


Edited by arjunasAscent (10/26/11 04:07 PM)
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#60465 - 10/26/11 06:00 PM Re: real satanism [Re: arjunasAscent]
The Zebu Offline
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 Quote:
I stumbled upon some content on the ONA. Some of it is trash, but the critique on modern satanism is spot on.


Fairly accurate.

 Quote:
The section entitled "The Magian Nature of Modern Occultism" posits that the Temple of Set and various such satanic organizations don't embrace the true "sinister" nature of darkness which beckons it's children to live it.


The fundamental problem with most would-be LHP groups is that they miss the essence of the Sinister, which is spiritual actualization via ritual and social transgression. There is nothing else to this. It flies over most peoples' heads because they are too busy fussing over philosophical details, esoteric correspondences, or the work of maintaining a public reputation.

 Quote:
Whether inspired by these ideas or not the 3rd reich adhered to these fundamentally sound yet devastating and most would say abominable principles.


Citation Needed. The LHP cannot be manifested in any herd-driven demagoguery like that practiced by the Nazi party. While espousing NS ideology in modern times can be a form of rebellion and breaking social taboos, in essence it is impossible to marry Satanism with any sort of political system.


Edited by The Zebu (10/26/11 06:01 PM)
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#60469 - 10/26/11 08:27 PM Re: real satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Here is the matter as I see it. Most would be LHP systems are simply ways of being just like everyone else, but feeling special in mindspace.

The adversary that begs and grovels before the master for acceptance and tolerance while following his rules is hardly an adversary.
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#60470 - 10/26/11 08:53 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Nice avatar, and well put.

Edited by arjunasAscent (10/26/11 09:05 PM)
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#60471 - 10/26/11 09:22 PM Re: real satanism [Re: arjunasAscent]
Octavian Offline
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How can the Temple of Set be included in this critique?

The contemporary Temple of Set originated in a crisis in the Church of Satan; the constitution of the contemporary Temple of Set was premised on a rejection of the supposedly narrow Judeo-Christian worldview and its supposedly cartoon like Prince of Darkness and a step into another supposedly much larger and different universe.

The Temple of Set is Setian, not Satanic from what I understand.

How can any Satanic organisation – modern or not (whatever that means) - be included in this critique?

Satanism itself is regarded as a causal form (by ONA) and is a clothing or a decoration of a potentially sinister core or essence from what I understand. It is a way of manifesting something inherent and immobile.

If this same sinister core or essence is also manifested formally through National Socialism as you seem to suggest, then both Satanism and National Socialism are essentially meaningless as they have virtually no other reality beyond mere form. They just house an unchanging sinister essence and are therefore united at an acausal level only.

A real Nazi, in my opinion, understands that the so called form of National Socialism is the so called substance of National Socialism; they are one and the same thing and are not divisible at all. National Socialism was a form of life, arising within very idiosyncratic historical conditions, and with an idiosyncratic understanding of world, modernity, race and human nature.

The same is the case with Satanism. The form and the substance are the same thing and they cannot be rendered divisible in order to identify an acausal sinister substance abstracted from a formal manifestation - some ONA people don’t even call themselves Satanist’s and this is the honest approach I think.

The same can be said of any form which one can regard as sinister, such as Islamic Fundamentalism, or gang culture, or whatever. Stating that these ways of living are somehow causal formal manifestations of sinister essence tells us almost nothing of the real nature of these particular ways of living. They are just regarded as shells or tools.

I have nothing against people adopting tools in order to achieve tangible goals, but I would like it if Satanism was not just picked up and used as an empty form. There is a lot more to it then that.

No doubt someone will step in and state that it is all just praxis, or a way of living in distinction to memes, and sure that sounds good. Satanism is an adjective at one level. There’s more to being a Satanist though then just being sinister, as per someone else’s definition.

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#60472 - 10/26/11 09:28 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Indeed it is the substance behind the form that matters, and that's the point. Orgs like the CoS, ToS, etc are things that exist within the system, by its rules, by its laws. they are of it. That is the essence..the same essence as any other way of pretending the prison doesn't exist. There is another type of essence, though,something more antinomian and heterodox, represented by, in part, a different sort of Satanism.
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#60475 - 10/26/11 10:13 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
arjunasAscent Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Octavian
How can the Temple of Set be included in this critique? The contemporary Temple of Set originated in a crisis in the Church of Satan; the constitution of the contemporary Temple of Set was premised on a rejection of the supposedly narrow Judeo-Christian worldview and its supposedly cartoon like Prince of Darkness and a step into another supposedly much larger and different universe.


The critique isn't centered around the immaturity of Setian views as much as the failure to manifest them in practice. Pls see Dan Dread's comment. The ToS is subject to social scrutiny as a visible tax-excempt religious corporation, their survival is subject to tight regulation (*1), as opposed to ONA nexions which abide by no rule other than their own (*2). I see Dan Dread beat me to the punch.

(*1) http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
(*2) http://www.nineangles.info/o9a-kulture-and-ethos.html

 Quote:
If this same sinister core or essence is also manifested formally through National Socialism as you seem to suggest, then both Satanism and National Socialism are essentially meaningless as they have virtually no other reality beyond mere form.


Setians, Satanists, and NSs have all sorts of perspectives, I think I probably didn't come through there. I only suggest they hold some common principles. As "The Zebu" pointed out the argument is weak without citations.
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#60478 - 10/27/11 01:11 AM Re: real satanism [Re: arjunasAscent]
Octavian Offline
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You have misunderstood the position I have taken in relation to the Temple of Set; I personally believe you have misunderstood the nature of the Temple as well.

We are speaking about Satanism from two different points of departure: hence our difference of position.

There is nothing further to say at this time, as far as I can see. You will need to take the next step up.

Thanks for your time.

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#60484 - 10/27/11 01:00 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
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Truly, this is the most pretentious thing I have read in weeks, and that is really saying something.

I'm sure in your own mind, as you live and act just like everyone else does, you are a special snowflake.
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#60485 - 10/27/11 01:43 PM Re: real satanism [Re: arjunasAscent]
The Zebu Offline
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I think this discussion merits a clarification between what is meant by "Satanism" and "The Left Hand Path", respectively.

Satanism is generally based on an exoteric current of Satan, mythologically speaking. The Devil has always had some sort of a cultus in western culture, whether through identification with pagan deities like Hades, Dionysos, Woden, Bucca, or (as is much more common today) through rebellion within contemporary Christian ideology.

The Left-Hand Path, as I have stated before, is a philosophical and practical methodology based on social and religious transgression. One can adhere to almost any mythological context (Gnosticism, Shaivism, Buddhism) and practice the LHP, but in the modern West, Satanism is best equipped for this. Satanism, in the context of the LHP, is a vehicle for the Sinister. The two resonate so well together that they are often mistaken for being synonymous, but they are not.

This distinction has become more pronounced over time. In the past, simply embracing Satanism (even privately) was often taboo enough to trigger radical change within the individual. But in our current times, when Satanism is socially tolerated subculture, ideology alone is simply not enough.

LaVey and Aquino definitely broke the mold individually by daring to proclaim their allegiance in broad daylight and publicly challenging the lies of Nazarene society, but the same cannot be said for their respective institutions. The same public eye that brought their founders infamy also binds and restricts their greater activity, and ultimately, working in such groups is little more than foreplay.

The ONA has its flaws too, but by encouraging the individual to break moral, legal, and social boundaries, they ultimately cross the threshold that most other groups cannot.

Anyways, one of Dan's recent blogs clarified the issue better than I can.


Edited by The Zebu (10/27/11 01:44 PM)
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#60486 - 10/27/11 02:57 PM Re: real satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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That's indeed the big difference between ONA and all other forms of Satanism.

The other ones define a territory and say; this is the area where you can do whatever you want but there are the borders which you can't cross. ONA says; there are no borders and everything is your territory and it is solely up to you where and how far you go.

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#60489 - 10/27/11 09:39 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavian Offline
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Okay, fair enough I will put my view forward and set it to the flame.

It seems to me that the definition of Satan and Satanism as adversary and adversarial respectively has been so blown out of proportion, that there is almost nothing left to think about and hold to with regard to Satan and Satanism.

It should be stated that the definition of Satan as adversary and Satanism as adversarial is the Christian definition of Satan and the Christian definition of the actions of Satan.

As a Satanist I am primarily interested in the thinking and actions of Satan “himself” or “itself” rather than the interpretations of those actions and thinking by those outside Satan, by the enemy of Satan.

I want to get to Satan, get at the heart of Satan and look at the world through the eyes of Satan, rather than having to 100% conform to the stereotype viewpoint which the Christians’ and other RHP groups have used to define “him” and “his” actions.

The essence of the consciousness and actions of Satan is I-theism; I hold this position to be valid apriori.

I do not place a limit on this I-theism: it is ethical I-theism or it may even be metaphysical I-theism, though I have not apprehended it in this latter sense at this time.

A Satanist, to my way of thinking, would place themselves at the centre of their own universe, and accord themselves the absolute right to determine good and evil, according to their own needs, with at least some sort of understanding that they may come into conflict with social, and legal boundaries through their actions and hence may be held responsible by the society they live in. That’s the price that is paid.

I am not obliged to be adversarial, out of compulsion, in order to prove that I am Satanic to some group of people. I will never do this.

I may act in ways which are defined by others as adversarial or I may not. Their definition only concerns me, in so far, as I may be held responsible for the choices I make and act upon.

I may choose to fight the system or I may decide to become an architect of the system, or even a jailer who holds the keys, or I may not. I will do whatever I wish to do in order to further my cause with or without concern for others. This will depend on me, as always.

The ONA has come up and the suggestion has been made that it is somehow more free, less binding, and has less boundaries.

Everything which acquires a name and a set of symbols can be defined in some sense or else it would not have enough coherence to acquire a name in the first place. The ONA reminds me of the big bang in a lot of ways. It started with a core and exploded and slowly spread and sprawled outwards, forming itself into an array of discursive formations, and cells, and objects.

ONA, in my view, however still has a core literature which allows one to identify it, though it is seemingly de-centred and held together in the most tenuous way. I would argue that the below four articles define ONA at its most elementary level.

http://www.nineangles.info/ontology-satanism.html

http://www.nineangles.info/our-law-sinister-numen.html

http://www.nineangles.info/o9a-how-to-be-a-satanist.pdf

http://antonlong.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/the-core-ona-traditions/

Maybe other people will find others or dismiss these and replace them with others etc.

All of these articles are just tools to me. I can reject all of them or accept all of them as I need in order to get my shit done. Everything is just a tool which I can draw on.

Same with the principles of LaVey: the Sins, the Rules of the Earth, the Statements, and Pentagonal Revisionism are now all just tools to me to be used and rejected as I need them.

I am not interested in being defined as ONA or CoS or TOS or anything. I wish to be completely independent of all the groups now. They were useful as learning structure, but I wish for independence now, whilst respecting my roots.

ONA has a structure which defines it and those who associate with it and call themselves ONA or use its symbols, at some level, are bound by the structure which defines ONA at some level. I am not going to conform to ONA rules or any of the other rules of the organisations out there. It is all the same thing; belonging to a group, in any sense, requires one to conform to some sort of definition at some level, or else there is no group at any level.

Anyway, keep fighting the system and demanding that others do so as well, to prove their Satanic merits, and to receive the right definition from you. The more you do this, the more clearly you illustrate how you yourself have become the system within the Satanic Community itself. I respectfully refuse to play.

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#60490 - 10/27/11 09:52 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Diavolo Offline
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What you should understand about ONA is that it uses Satanism as a form but is not limited to it. Any structure you see in ONA is not there; there are no rules, there is no pre-defined form you are restricted to.

It's all about the essence.

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#60499 - 10/27/11 11:33 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Firstly, I-theism, or being ones own god, is not core to the LHP but something people that only half understood LaVey(through Blavatsky) took and ran with. The essay ' the god you save may be yourself' was a utilization of metaphor simply used to describe the relationship of autonomy to left hand path tradition.

Secondly, you seem to be speaking of Satan as if he is a real being and has been somehow pejoratively understood by those mean old white lighters. Satan only really ' exists' as a figurehead for antinomian and heterodox tradition, in the context of western society. 'He' is the symbol for transgression, breaking boundaries and utilizing taboos for personal gain. He is the representation of the things those ' other guys' dare not do, the places they dare not go. In that, the outside understanding of ' him' is quite correct, even if put into a negative context.

Thirdly, the ONA form of traditional Satanism is not only not core, but pretty much dead. Most ' Satanists' that fly under the ONA banner have a wholly different understanding of Satanism than offered therein

Lastly, you seem to have misunderstood ONA completely if you would imagine that ' fighting the system and demanding others do too.' is an accurate assessment of any within ONA; it isn't. It isn't a fight so much of a recognition that the rules only exist in your head, and there is no impetus to demand others do anything, only a recognition that most would be LHPers play by the exact same rules as every other mundane, which makes them indistinguishable in any meaningful way from any muslim, christian, or jew.

In conclusion, you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about.
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#60518 - 10/28/11 07:32 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavian Offline
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Your trying to tell me that I-theism is not core to the left hand path? Are you serious?

So after burning off systemic memetics through the ADM or some other experience/practice based form of adversarialism you do not adopt the right to determine good and evil yourself and hence do not adopt ethical I-theism?

I am pretty sure it was you who used to use the wording "autotheism through adversarial manifestation" before adopting your latest set of wording?

I am simply adopting this I-theism now as my right after burning off a shitload of memes.

I adopt it as a result of discovering dasein, or grasping the reality of will to power, or might as right, or might is right amongst carnal animals in an indifferent world.

I stated clearly that I have not apprehended a metaphysical I-theism at this time. Hence, and you should be able to understand the consequences of what I am saying here...

Satan as adversary/transgressor, according to the Western social definition? Sure, how good of you to have swallowed that memetic definition of the western system and based your whole identity/practice around it. So there's nothing more to Satan than this for you?

ONA: good luck with it. Please re-read my above posts carefully.



Edited by Octavian (10/28/11 07:47 AM)

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#60519 - 10/28/11 08:01 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Diavolo Offline
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The LHP is a transgressive praxis to gain insights. Theism (or not) is not relevant to it which should be obvious since the origin of the method comes from people having a "theistic" worldview.

Edited by Diavolo (10/28/11 08:18 AM)

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#60520 - 10/28/11 08:21 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Sure, I used the term 'autotheism' for a time, to describe personal autonomy. I Now find it to be less useful, mostly because of the misunderstandings fostered by the term.

But personal autonomy has only ever been a side dish, a resultant consequence of living an LHP lifestyle. Too many would declare themselves their own god and just go about their day, as everyone else, different only in their own mindspace (and hardly even there). What's the point of that?
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#60531 - 10/28/11 10:14 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavian Offline
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I see Satanism as the philosophy, the tool of the superman, or at least the potential superman.

I see it as the philosophy of greatness and leadership.

I hope that I am not stupid or naive enough to believe that I can just declare myself a God and then sit back and think I can actualise that without deeds or praxis or actually doing something and learning and evolving and moving forward.

Everyone will be cut down to a size and a shape under the pressures of the world.

I still maintain that I can be the centre of my world, of a subjective universe which I can more or less bring into being through my intelligence, talent and drive.

I personally find this viewpoint and its accompanying practical efforts to be deeply adversarial, particularly in a society which just demands that I think alike with others and do alike with others.


Edited by Octavian (10/28/11 10:16 PM)

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#60537 - 10/28/11 10:43 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Ok, here is a question. What makes you great, and what are you the leader of? Oh shit I guess that's two questions. Ok lets do three then, this ones easier. What about your day to day activities would identify you as a potential superman, different from the rest?

The problem with this sort of 'adversarialism' is it only exists in mindspace. If that's taking it far enough in your eyes, cool, but it seems a bit hollow from here.
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#60539 - 10/28/11 10:45 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Diavolo Offline
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That's what it is about. You're the center of your universe. Whatever happens, there's only one to praise or blame: you.

Does this mean you're god? Hell no, things happen without you being able to control them; at times you just got to go with the flow and improvise.

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#60545 - 10/29/11 01:30 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavian Offline
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What makes me great? Because I am me.

I have been a painter and hold two post-grad degrees.

I have been a short order cook and a dishwasher and have cleaned up vomit at times.

I have been a thief and a burglar, through a wish for adventure and a good shot of adrenalin.

I have been a treasury and money market banker and have worked with hundred's of millions of dollars a day. I have held responsible leadership roles in the corporate world.

I have been a teacher, and I have been been a political activist.

All of these roles I have had may be perceived by you as not superhuman, but they are superhuman to me.

If others can exceed these roles and satisfy themselves than good on them. If they can evolve further than I can then good luck to them.

You may ask me to substantiate my claims with evidence, but this I cannot do, as I can't risk exposing my identity on the internet right now.

My reality is unique to me and the world is fresh and waiting to be understood, perceived and its forces marshalled in my favour, as far as I can marshall them.

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#60547 - 10/29/11 02:01 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
arjunasAscent Offline
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There's no need to prove one's self or stay in control. A lost battle is a war won.



Edited by arjunasAscent (10/29/11 02:03 AM)
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#60552 - 10/29/11 03:42 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
TheInsane Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Octavian
What makes me great? Because I am me.

I have been a painter and hold two post-grad degrees.

I have been a short order cook and a dishwasher and have cleaned up vomit at times.

I have been a thief and a burglar, through a wish for adventure and a good shot of adrenalin.

I have been a treasury and money market banker and have worked with hundred's of millions of dollars a day. I have held responsible leadership roles in the corporate world.

I have been a teacher, and I have been been a political activist.

All of these roles I have had may be perceived by you as not superhuman, but they are superhuman to me.

If others can exceed these roles and satisfy themselves than good on them. If they can evolve further than I can then good luck to them.

You may ask me to substantiate my claims with evidence, but this I cannot do, as I can't risk exposing my identity on the internet right now.

My reality is unique to me and the world is fresh and waiting to be understood, perceived and its forces marshalled in my favour, as far as I can marshall them.


So its all circle reasoning then. It is because I say it is. I am because I say I am. There is no objective value that actually recognizes you as great or even close to some kind of superman. So its all about a mental projection for you to feel good about yourself. Its not unlike theism in essence then. Its there, cant be proven but is believed because you feel better by believing it.

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#60554 - 10/29/11 06:47 AM Re: real satanism [Re: TheInsane]
Octavian Offline
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Circle reasoning? No, not really.

I will attempt to explain.

I have more or less systematically dispensed with the ideological/religious conceptions regarding my humanity. I am a carnal animal. I find this correct understanding of myself to be an adversarial one at a deep level and I find it inspirational.

I recognise that I am the outcome of thousands of years of evolution, and that thousands of generations of my ancestors successfully survived and helped to make me who I am. I find this to be inspirational as well.

I have more or less systematically dispensed with the ideological/religious conceptions regarding the nature of reality and the purpose/being of living organisms. I replace God, and natural rights conceptions with will to power as the ultimate reality. I recognise stratification and hierarchy as objectively valid.

I see good and evil as objectively or universally untenable due to the scrapping of the religious conceptions I have undertaken.

The way is now paved for me to assume a form of Godhead and state that I have the right to determine questions of good and evil myself, subject to accepting the consequences for my choices. I no longer give this authority to an outside God, which does not exist, but rather adopt it myself. This is ethical I-theism.

I go one step further: I state that I can be the centre of a unique subjective universe of my own. A unique picture of what I want, of what I see. Instead of seeing the world and myself and my picture of the is-to-be the way an outside God wants me to see it, I take this myself for myself only. This is yet another type of I-theism.

I live in the real world and I am subject to stratification and hierarchy just like any other living creature is and so I will reach a certain level and that is where I will dwell, success wise etc.

Does this make sense to you? There is nothing circular about this.

Theism will only come into this if I can apprehend my I-theism metaphysically or in terms of reality. I have not apprehended it in this way at this time. If I did (and who knows maybe I will some day, who knows) then that would constitute the adoption of some other view of reality, but again I have not apprehended I-theism in this way at this time.

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#60558 - 10/29/11 09:43 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Diavolo Offline
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Look man, the problem with that superman shit is that we always look great when comparing ourselves with less.

Sure there are a lot of really stupid and weak people out there and when looking at them, we of course feel fantastic that we're not them. But that's not the point. This superman shit doesn't fly when you still require others to measure how great you are.

The only comparison that has value is when comparing yourself now with yourself before. If nothing changed, nothing great was accomplished. If you improved, then you're going into the right direction. But you got to keep on moving.

Those others out there, they're good for a laugh, or as an example but it was never about them.


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#60561 - 10/29/11 10:31 AM Re: real satanism [Re: Diavolo]
William Wright Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The only comparison that has value is when comparing yourself now with yourself before.

I love that statement. It is a statement I have lived these past few years without consciously putting into words, and I think it gets to the heart of what Octavian’s trying to say.

“God” or “Superman” are, to those who don’t believe in such things literally, subjective terms. If one chooses to see himself as a god, then the next step would be to manifest it in his life in ways that make sense to him. These manifestations are symptoms of the condition but not the condition itself. It is circular only in the sense that the manifestations reinforce, or challenge, the label he has given himself.
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#60565 - 10/29/11 12:31 PM Re: real satanism [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
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You know what the problem is with this sort of personal glorification? That it very often hinders people more than it helps them.

Many think that once you declare yourself king of your hill, the task is done. Very often it is based upon some funky parameters; like not believing in a deity, or believing morals are relative, or that you are in control. But what many do is replace that god out there with a deity as fictitious but it this time being they themselves; this god or superman they claim to be.

But a lot of this illusion of being in control, or being beyond, is based upon thinking to be such, not on experiential conclusions, and as long as this data isn't verified; they're not doing anything different from those they look down upon.




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#60567 - 10/29/11 01:18 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3845
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Octavian
What makes me great? Because I am me.

I have been a painter and hold two post-grad degrees.

I have been a short order cook and a dishwasher and have cleaned up vomit at times.

I have been a thief and a burglar, through a wish for adventure and a good shot of adrenalin.

I have been a treasury and money market banker and have worked with hundred's of millions of dollars a day. I have held responsible leadership roles in the corporate world.

I have been a teacher, and I have been been a political activist.

All of these roles I have had may be perceived by you as not superhuman, but they are superhuman to me.

If others can exceed these roles and satisfy themselves than good on them. If they can evolve further than I can then good luck to them.

You may ask me to substantiate my claims with evidence, but this I cannot do, as I can't risk exposing my identity on the internet right now.

My reality is unique to me and the world is fresh and waiting to be understood, perceived and its forces marshalled in my favour, as far as I can marshall them.

I don't need you to substantiate that you are just like everyone else, for that was precisely my point.

You espouse to follow the way of leaders and be a step above yet in your day to day you seem to be no different than anyone else. Every christian, muslim, and jew feels special in their own head as they go about their slave routine, following the rules and living as they are supposed to.I really can't see how this sort of 'mindspace Satanism' sets you apart from they.
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#60573 - 10/29/11 02:09 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Octavian
Does this make sense to you? There is nothing circular about this.


I dont have any major things to say about the outlook on life you provide in your post. I too value history and recognizes it as a part of what has provided the tool for me to be what I am today. I recognize stratification and hierarchy etc.

What I was reacting to was your circle reasoning - "What makes me great? Because I am me." The very definition of great for you is, well, you.

These "may be perceived by you as not superhuman, but they are superhuman to me." What you have accomplished then is to become superhuman in your own mind because you yourself has decided that superhuman qualities include being a cook and a dishwasher, a thief and a burglar, a teacher, and a political activist, a treasury as well as a money market banker (having worked with hundred's of millions of dollars a day) etc.

This means nothing and I cant see how it is regarded as superhuman much less anything divine (you do refer to being your own God which surely means something much more than just deciding that morals are relative and choosing your own beliefs).

Otherwise I think the critique offered by Diavolo and Dan_Dread is sufficient enough to speak for my opinion as well.


Edited by TheInsane (10/29/11 02:12 PM)

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#60574 - 10/29/11 02:47 PM Re: real satanism [Re: TheInsane]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
It's an interesting set of life experiences, but I'd hardly call it superhuman. Your personal journey is your own, and whatever insights you have gained are also your own, and cannot be intimated through text.

I personally don't like the whole "Satanic Superman Syndrome" (as Diane Vera calls it) where the LHP is reduced to a dick-measuring contest of who is more Über than the other. I think this thread is very close to falling into that trap at this point.
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#60576 - 10/29/11 03:05 PM Re: real satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3845
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Personally I make no claims to superiority, Im just a dude that lives according to a certain sort of praxis.

My only issue is with those that would lay claim to that praxis without actually doing it.
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#60581 - 10/29/11 04:25 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Octavian]
Gattamelata Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 45
 Originally Posted By: Octavian
The essence of the consciousness and actions of Satan is I-theism; I hold this position to be valid apriori..


It seems to me that if one seperates transgressive action from transgressive philosophy, one is in constant danger of ending up investing all bodily, emotional and mental energy into some ponzi scheme of mind games – a web of abstractions devoid of any real potency.

This is, btw, the classic criticism of the right hand tantras from the perspective of the vamachara. There is nothing inherently or neccesarily wrong with symbolic reinterpretations, but without anchoring these in actual experience one empties the symbol of any real value, replacing it with speculative theology for the ego to find comfort in.

Point is: your definition of the Satanist as the prime mover of his own universe and the ultimate creator of his own values are valid so far as the ’I’ you are speaking of is bred through experience, power and self-overcoming.

Life is a crucible, and no abstraction or opinion or philosophical/memetical paradigm can replace the caustic alchemical laboratory of direct experience. This is why traditional societies employed dangerous rituals and tests: to reveal and create character. To breed nobility. In the ancient indo-aryan society, even a member of the highest caste was regarded as an empty office holder unless he had been thoroughly tested. This is why the left hand path stresses transgression of boundaries in the space of action as well as in the space of mind.

There is a tale about Gurdjieff that illustrates what the left hand path is about. When the Germans advanced on Paris during WW2, instead of fleeing the city, Gurdjieff was eager to make it there when the action begun. A puzzled refugee met him on the way, and noted that Gurdjieff was heading in the wrong direction.

Myself I can speak and write seven languages. I have lived both as a street criminal and a stock trader. I have experienced life as a mercenerary in the 90's war that ravaged the former republic of Yugoslavia. I have lived four years on nothing but scraps in Nepal. I have an education as a psychologist. I have fucked a girl from every continent except Antarctica! And I have blah blah blah

Yay, I’m a special little snowflake! I’m divine! A superhuman!

What is important is not to gain fabric to dress up your ego. In fact, I have often found the opposite to be true: gaining experience through transgressive action tends to undress the ’I’. It undresses the constant mind games and constructs we tend to fence ourselves in, and it often humbles any notion of false supremacy and that special-as-a-snowflake elitist attitude so prevalent within elitist philosophies, as these are often concerned with encouraging grand and romantic images of the self.
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#60582 - 10/29/11 04:39 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Gattamelata]
Octavian Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 81
If your experience isn't precious to you then I don't care. If you do not draw the logical conclusion from the death of God then I don't care either.

I highly value my experience as it has made me who I am.

Many supermen or humans of great quality and power have achieved more than I have and many more will achieve more than me in the future. Such is life.

I gain from Satan something different than most it would seem. I start from a different departure pointthan most.

Thanks for the conversation.

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#76733 - 05/28/13 03:22 PM Re: real satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6742
Loc: Virginia
I've always considered the godhead in relation to the LHP to be states of being, in which 'you' are the source in which things emanate from. So in working towards becoming whatever it is you want to become, if you're not walking the talk then all those little failures emanate from you and your lack of action. The same is true for personal successes. It's a constant process which is why that 'becoming' is often referred to as The Great Work. Being active vs. passive in pursuing that 'divinity' for the lack of a better term you envision for yourself.

It's not so much as being some little special snowflake, but rather getting shit done.
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