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#116367 - 05/30/18 04:22 PM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: Phoenician]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 157
 Originally Posted By: Phoenician
 Quote:
My opinion of "atheists" as I've come to understand it is that they are useful idiots for other entities to keep power out of the hands of the less worthy. At least those who make a career out of it. Settling for a paycheck and avoiding the supernatural is a safe space for those who might be a bit frightened of progression. However, unlike some Satanists I don't cringe at the idea of so called "safe spaces." "Atheism" is a valid safe space to protect yourself from fear that might actually hinder your progress. Some people who would strip that away from you aren't actually interested in your progression.


That might be the most flawed argument I have read in a while, and a nice bit of apologetic gymnastics. Unless my reading comprehension fails me yet again...

You have in effect contrived another degree of influence to call a skeptical mindset fearful. You're saying that underneath what "atheists" say is a belief they are repressing. That they're critical positions limit their opportunities and experiences. The position that there is an innate superstition non-belief insulates one from, and part of being human is to be "spiritual". Very christian argument.

It's superfluous, a crutch, and entirely unnecessary. Unless you can give me a good example in which a critical mindset actually limits ones progression?

Contrarily, I believe a critical mindset gave 'humanity' EVERY notable progression we have. Like that one mouthwash guy who said, "I believe sickness is caused by single celled organisms that attack our bodies, but first I need to prove it."


You claimed it was an "argument" or whatever, I didn't. I merely voiced my experience. Your attitude means it would be a waste of time to give any such "examples" because you've already made your mind up. Calling me a "Christian" or equating what I do or whatever as some kind of "crutch" and then claiming that Atheism and critical thinking is synonymous is more indicative of your mindset not mine and usually its a waste of time to butt heads for ego points. But yes, Atheism for me as I've said is a good place to be in certain points along the way, and in my experience was a good way to test the divine. Be an Atheist, be hedonistic, be powerful and not give a fuck is a good place for personal testing grounds and personal critical thinking experiments. If you're effective then that materialistic and carnal approach is a path to progress. In my experience its a stage, and not a stopping place.

As for some "atheists" its just what I've seen in my personal observations in mindsets that I see sometimes, although I've never met Dawkins or others I may or may not disagree with. Some who are atheists have used critical thinking for phenomenal material scientific advancements, so their development led them somewhere else. That doesn't make them "Satanists" it makes them critical thinkers. One does not necessarily imply the other. However, I'm not sure what exactly your point is, except you feel "disrespected" in some way, which is understandable. My "argument" was more of a broad statement for others who might benefit from it who are more "theistically" inclined like me. However, it was a bit broad and provocative for those not so inclined.

As far as "influence" is concerned, that seems to be up to the individual. Critical thinking and Atheism is a common public meme designed to favor one idea over another. To blindly accept that is not an example of sincere critical thinking skills.

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#116368 - 05/30/18 04:41 PM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: samowens84]
Phoenician Offline
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Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 86
Loc: CA
And I am finding fault with your experience simply because you are voicing an opinion I strongly disagree with.

If we are going with labels I am an Antitheist. For your condescending ass to sit there and call it a phase of progression shows more than whatever strawman you leveled to avoid the question.

Seriously, give me an absolute fucking example of how demanding verification limits one's progression and I will shut my mouth.

 Quote:
Critical thinking and Atheism is a common public meme designed to favor one idea over another. To blindly accept that is not an example of sincere critical thinking skills.


You forgot the part about WHY it is accepted. It's like you think it's the same as scripture. Still sounding Christian to me.

Therein lies the difference. In my opinion this misses mark of what Satanism (or mine anyway) is entirely because it deals with ideas before your observation in praxis.

The very definition of Carnal is "as it relates to the physical".
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#116369 - 05/30/18 05:12 PM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: Phoenician]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 157
"I am finding fault with your experience simply because you are voicing an opinion I strongly disagree with."

And? So? Pick your poison.

"Seriously, give me an absolute fucking example of how demanding verification limits one's progression and I will shut my mouth."

Verification and validation are two different beasts. Personal verification is something personal and experimental where a person judges for themselves what works for them. That you demand some kind of higher authority to determine the truth for others sounds more Christian to me, whether that be "science" "Satanism" or "antitheism."

On the other hand "validation" is akin to asking permission from some higher authority. Is it "ok" to be an Atheist and call yourself a Satanist? Absolutely.

You wonder why I'm not arguing with you its because I don't need to. To do so would imply that your "skepticism" is relevant to me. It isn't.

Your need to open me up is more important to your sense of self-worth, not mine.

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#116370 - 05/30/18 06:22 PM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: samowens84]
Phoenician Offline
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Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 86
Loc: CA
 Quote:
That you demand some kind of higher authority to determine the truth for others sounds more Christian to me, whether that be "science" "Satanism" or "antitheism."


There's only one way the fire burns.

Likewise, it is pointless when one has a baffling need to equate "what it takes to convince" with a need for approval. In this context you are arguing blind belief as a satanic trait.  That as long as it works for you it qualifies. 

Is it opposed to most societies upholding of faith as a defining characteristic of life? The common path of attainment is through superstition. The "whatever works" angle fails. Sure it's independent, but is it satanic?

Argument reversed.

I just argue one is more authentic.. Not a popular view.

The key is in "attainment". What do you need to satisfy your curiosity? What do you need to fill in the blanks?

That simple qualia lampshade is still the best example of how thinking in abstract pertains to Satanism IMO. Ghosts vs. observation of the warm air moving it.

Valid vs. invalid causal connection.

Finally, when individualism above all else becomes "it", you trample on "it" until "it" becomes:



Now the unique kid that dresses eccentrically and brands their own style is "it", even with the footprints poster on the wall.
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#116371 - 05/30/18 07:06 PM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: Phoenician]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 157
"Authentic" in terms of what? "It" as what? What exactly are you trying to "attain?" I've actually made progress and made exceptional gains for myself that go well beyond what's the fucking "real deal" that have superbly enriched my life well beyond the words on a screen that you define as "real."

I've already walked the walk and got nothing to prove.

So again. What exactly are you trying to prove here?

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#116372 - 05/31/18 12:47 AM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: samowens84]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3246
Using the quick reply..


There used to be a time where I respected Dawkins and his ilk.
Now, not so much. Atheism is just that, non-belief.
There is a basic work that touches and covers the topic well-enough (The God Delusion) and that should be it.
All other bashing and complaining about what belief or religion is upheld is a time-waster.

"To each their own" and if people can't cope with anothers idea I refer to Satanic rules number 3, 4 and 8.

I would also say Atheism can only be upheld in a Western society where people have all the luxury and comfort to be at ease. Religion and spirituality are rooted in Animism which in itself is a natural defense-mechanism to unknown or not understood phenomena... which is the reason why it is so much more prevalant in underdeveloped countries or poverty-stricken areas.

Atheism has a certain rational basis to it but originates from comfort and lack of exposure to danger. Religion and spirituality in that regard have no rational basis but are effective for survivability. Critical thinking in this regard is but a tool that can be used and abused when not applied properly.
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#116373 - 05/31/18 07:39 AM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: Phoenician]
Dark One Offline
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Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Phoenician

I don't get how the spiritual (especially in the "occult" context) qualifies as anything LHP. 


I would see the 'spiritual' as the way in which you define yourself within the universe and existence as a whole and how you relate to other people and to the general trials, tribulations and celebrations of life (and death) in general. That's roughly the idea as best I can explain it. A religion is a means of providing this foundation of your existence as a human both as an individual and as a society as a whole. That's why humans (as in modern homo sapiens) have always had various religions as they all serve that essential purpose.


 Originally Posted By: Phoenician
I think Dawkins And Co. have a more LHP perspective than most that call themselves satanists, especially those that call themselves occultist.


Atheists like to brag about the fact that they literally have no belief and no religion. That's fine they don't though they do on occasion make the odd statement of faith such as 'One day soon science will explain everything! But that aside they're the equivalent of an amputee proudly rubbing the bloody stump of what remains of a limb into your face.



 Originally Posted By: Phoenician
IMO, It is refreshing to hear criticisms along the; No you can't control the objective universe with magic


Well actually you can to some degree achieve this through 'magick', bear in mind that we are the universe and we control ourselves as self determined entities. If for instance you perform a ritual that aims to bring yourself greater wealth you will then set out to do what is that you need to do to bring yourself greater wealth. Yes you are doing it yourself but you may otherwise have not done so.


you are just full of your own red herring fallacy
lines. And these atheists just so happen to be the only ones saying those things.


I would actually agree with William Lane Craig when he said atheists may be greatly knowledgeable when it comes to their own scientific field of expertise but as soon as they step outside of that subject they don't necessarily know what they're talking about. I'd disagree with him about literally everything else he says though, I have read his books and they're really direly awful. Not just because they're Christian books I can read something written by C.S Lewis or someone half decent. William Lane Craig is an absolute tit though, just awful.

The Drug & Other Stories by Aleisteir Crowley is a good read btw. Technically it's a work of complete fiction (like the Quran or the Book of Mormon) but I'd still count it as LHP.

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#116374 - 05/31/18 11:11 AM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: Dimitri]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 157
I find that some people who have never had certain experiences get lost trying to "prove" it or vice versa. In my situation it was a scenario where it was a pragmatic use to survive. Being in it its quite liberating to find that much of that "form" that some people choose to call "superstition" I would argue was pragmatic genius at work. To survive I would argue these civilizations created that spiritual structure and so it became real.

For me Magick is logic applied for the self. Not in the mundane selfish aspect, but rather logic applied to the world beneath the surface aspect of a personality. Atheism in some expressions I've seen rejects inward application of critical thinking in favor of focusing outward. In spiritual terms from what I've read there are two opposing forces. One favors order and life at the expense of individuality and the other is chaotic, passionate self-serving and self interested. These two forces are in constant struggle for supremacy. In my magical explorations they are the inner struggle between self-transformation versus harmony.

My personal benefit has been best served by exploring the Illiad and the Odyssey. Or more specifically "The Iliad." Hector versus Achilles represents the opposing forces of nature that burn Troy down. My personal study that I find fascinating is the battle between Achilles and Hector. Athena assured Achilles that she favored him in battle. In disguise she appeared to Hector as Deiphobus and deceived Hector and tricked him into battle against Achilles. Hector throws his middle at him and is repulsed effortlessly. He calls out for his god but "he's" gone.

This to me represents the struggle between the "mundane" man versus the transformative magical one. The man dedicated to life and order versus transformation and personal ascension. Athena hedges her bets and plays both sides. What is "burned" is up for debate. Poetry and Yates in particular are deep magical works. Being in touch with my soul finds that conversation and uses it for personal ascension. If that "soul" isn't there or underdeveloped, then poetry is likely to be dismissed as cathartic rambling as intellectual puzzles or reduced to the author's personal history as a mundane exercise.

Lavey is often too much of a stopping place. He argues as everyone is aware that the "Satanist" is born not made. This was actually said differently by Robert Graves in his book "The White Goddess" that the poet is born and not made. Which is for me fucking awesome.


I'd rather be known as a poet then a Satanist. The term poet is open ended, liberating for the will of the artist, whereas the label "Satanist" has been appropriated for ideology and cultural and ideological recognition. In this case, it may be argued that the poet is actually more dangerous then someone who identifies as a "Satanist." The personality is you, whereas Satanism as a personal identification is intimately linked with the personality of Anton LaVey. And so the later becomes more limited than the former. Poetry is limitless possibilities bound only by the imagination of the artist.


Edited by samowens84 (05/31/18 11:34 AM)

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#116377 - 05/31/18 02:27 PM Re: Will to Power: Legitimate? [Re: samowens84]
Phoenician Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 86
Loc: CA
 Quote:
In my situation it was a scenario where it was a pragmatic use to survive. Being in it its quite liberating to find that much of that "form" that some people choose to call "superstition" I would argue was pragmatic genius at work. To survive I would argue these civilizations created that spiritual structure and so it became real.


In my opinion this is the very point of separation between the paths.

On one the pragmatic genius of superstition fails to ever take hold. Psychodrama is mental masturbation and provides no useable solution.

What you said (quote) still reminds me of the footprints poster. You essentially let "god" carry you to avoid the discomfort of doing it alone. The pragmatic genius was the base wiring showing a person turning to the sky for answers.
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