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#61472 - 11/16/11 05:20 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Fnord]
Interrogist Offline
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Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Firstly, I'm not quoting anyone, I'm referring to past interactions and I'm giving credit where due in all honesty.

You've made some assertions:

1). Satanism is dead, presumably because you've made the determination that it's some form to be adhered to.

To this I would say that is only your (limited view) opinion and you would have a difficult time backing it up.

2). Satanists lack a work ethic and the form is basically all talk.

To this, again, I called bullshit. Look around you.


I'm not the one selling something (a new term) and I've never tried to get you to conform to my views. All I've done is to try to get you to simply state what your views are which, so far, are wholly encompassed in the above two items.

You make many assumptions, such as the one you keep making about me being a follower of LaVey. You have nothing to ground that on except an opinion that I guarantee you cannot back up.

Finally, you've insulted me many times for calmly and rationally asking you to explain the views that you chose to put up here in a public forum.

If I called you a child I stick by it because you act like one.


Stand by what you will Fnord, I doubt you are hurt, as this is the net. Ill also stand by my statement that most self proclaimed Satanist are ill informed, and those who are well informed could do their thing under any other banner/form. If nothing else I am honest enough to openly admit that its a methodical path to be traveled, and announce my taking a walk, while some others simply claim titles and quote the thoughts of others.

Your correct in that I know little of you personally, thus, anything youd like to divulge would be appreciated. In the end, Im not a Satanist, not in any respect of the word outside of the term describing some inherent attributes in ones nature. So far as indications go, I live in the (US), so does that tell you all about me? Thats the thing for me. You cant sum up an individual in a word, however, individuals can sum up themselves in new brands and philosophical forms. It seems only a few of us care to do so.

All in all, I welcome your continued critique Fnord.


Edited by Interrogist (11/16/11 05:21 PM)
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#61473 - 11/16/11 05:52 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Interrogist]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Interrogist
Ill also stand by my statement that most self proclaimed Satanist are ill informed, and those who are well informed could do their thing under any other banner/form.


Perfectly reasonable and I concur. To that I would add that there are plenty of people who still operate under the moniker of Satanist and are serious and authentic in their (left hand) paths.

As for my particulars, they're around here in public view so I won't be droll enough to repost here. Suffice it to say that I have drawn much from life by application of Satanic principles (and I've called it Satanism).

Anyway, I'm perfectly cool with your last paragraph as well. I like your brand, I just took issue with what I saw as a flawed representation of what I do.
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#61474 - 11/16/11 06:09 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Fnord]
Interrogist Offline
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Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Fnord

Anyway, I'm perfectly cool with your last paragraph as well. I like your brand, I just took issue with what I saw as a flawed representation of what I do.


Indeed Fnord, Ill keep that in mind in the future.
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#61478 - 11/16/11 07:56 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Interrogist]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3773
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I find this amusing as I ride the fence between these two positions. While I continue to find "Satan" to be a useful vehicle for heterodox praxis and antinomian philosophy, I also feel a bit of disgust for those that would turn his station into that of a housenigger.
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#61487 - 11/16/11 10:06 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Vondraco Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 28
Loc: Houston, TX
Satan is a useful paradigm. Nothing more. In Western culture, He is the ultimate "bad guy."

I am a devotee of Sri Shiva. In this, the Kaliyuga, He indeed acts as the "bad guy." He destroys so that He may build. Our world is done; the gods alone remain.

Yet are We just pawns in this game? Shall We just silently surrender to the forces that prompt us? Let Us build an empire and a legacy that will make even the Gods tremble! THIS is Satanism!
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#61492 - 11/17/11 12:29 AM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Vondraco]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
While I continue to find "Satan" to be a useful vehicle for heterodox praxis and antinomian philosophy, I also feel a bit of disgust for those that would turn his station into that of a housenigger.


Agreed. Satanism is more of a "current" and way of acting in the world, rather than a conventional religion, as it is often treated. Those who do not see Satan as being relevant personally are more than welcome to find their own vocabulary to describe their worldview, but those who do still have a rich vitality to draw upon. I honestly believe one could even adhere to a radical Gnostic form of Christianity and still walk the left-hand path.

It does not particularly bother me to see religious-minded Satanists (as every deity is expected to have some sort of popular cultus, and our patron is no different), so long as they don't try to whitewash the Devil's image, and therefore negate whatever philosophical and metaphysical significance He still has.

 Quote:
I am a devotee of Sri Shiva. In this, the Kaliyuga, He indeed acts as the "bad guy." He destroys so that He may build.


I must confess that my own perception of Satan has been strongly influenced by the aspects of Shiva, in that they both share many similarities. I think highlighting such correspondences can help shed some light on the traits of Satan that are otherwise ignored, such as His hypostasis as the cosmic force of destruction and recreation, rather than a simple patron of human consciousness.


Edited by The Zebu (11/17/11 12:30 AM)
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#61501 - 11/17/11 09:08 AM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Vondraco]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Vondraco
Satan is a useful paradigm. Nothing more. In Western culture, He is the ultimate "bad guy."

I am a devotee of Sri Shiva. In this, the Kaliyuga, He indeed acts as the "bad guy." He destroys so that He may build. Our world is done; the gods alone remain.

Yet are We just pawns in this game? Shall We just silently surrender to the forces that prompt us? Let Us build an empire and a legacy that will make even the Gods tremble! THIS is Satanism!


I'd say Satan was the ultimate bad guy but in today's culture he's been dethroned by many humans. Hitler being a good example.

The power of Satan in a culture goes hand in hand with the power of the guy he is opposing; god. If god's status drops, of course the one opposing him ain't that evil or imppressive no longer.

Personally I start to grow fond of Kali as seen by the Kalikula. Her being the manifestation of Brahman and expressed in creation, preservation and destruction which resembles the ancient views upon the "Goddess" here who also manifested threefold.

It's quite a familiar theme; the three-faced, three-fold, even the Trinity.

D.

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#61503 - 11/17/11 10:14 AM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Diavolo]
Interrogist Offline
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Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
I find this amusing as I ride the fence between these two positions. While I continue to find "Satan" to be a useful vehicle for heterodox praxis and antinomian philosophy, I also feel a bit of disgust for those that would turn his station into that of a housenigger.


As I see it, Satan is not needed, nor Set, nor any titled deity or archetype. Forms are vehicles of enlightenment and personal development, and becoming stuck in any one form is to restrict that growth, thus logic dictates that, while all forms must be Interrogated, ultimately, all Interrogated forms must be torn down, that the adherent Know that they have not become stuck. Also the knowledge gained by ones elders, while exploring the said forms, can be passed along to the fallowing generation, without passing along the said form as well. This is the only method by which man kind might advance beyond the Need of the forms restricted predefined paths. Or are we now speaking of a predefined LHP? A snake must shed its skin, or cease to grow, and that's the bottom line for me.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Agreed. Satanism is more of a "current" and way of acting in the world, rather than a conventional religion, as it is often treated. Those who do not see Satan as being relevant personally are more than welcome to find their own vocabulary to describe their world view, but those who do still have a rich vitality to draw upon. I honestly believe one could even adhere to a radical Gnostic form of Christianity and still walk the left-hand path.


How is it that anyone might envision a future mankind setting foot on new worlds, bible in hand? It matters little to me that the bible says Holy God or Evil Satan, it could even say the SIN, or the 600 Club on the cover. The point is, belief is one thing, while proven methods are another, and my method, and that of many others, is the Fire of scrutiny that eradicates useless hindrance, that the Stone of logic and science might be strengthened, and that the Tribe flourish. As far as I am concerned, if one stands in the way of that progression, they are stuck in their preferred form, and equivalent to the mundane. Point blank. The past is filled with tremendous knowledge that I am only now beginning to tap, however, in the long run, This is my age, and this age has no need of forms any longer. Their evolution has come to a head, their knowledge gathered.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I must confess that my own perception of Satan has been strongly influenced by the aspects of Shiva, in that they both share many similarities. I think highlighting such correspondences can help shed some light on the traits of Satan that are otherwise ignored, such as His hypostasis as the cosmic force of destruction and recreation, rather than a simple patron of human consciousness.


Listen to you speaking of this concept as though it were a person. Your addressing how one form has influenced another form... Are you in there somewhere? I hope so. The essence underlying these forms is Human, thus the human essence is the most important. Not how forms get along or progress... wtf?
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#61507 - 11/17/11 12:40 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Interrogist]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 855
Loc: Nashville
Interrogist, first you are right that “Interrogism” is not mentioned in your link. I stand corrected.

I understand where you’re coming from with regard to forms. Lately I’ve come to see myself first and foremost as a Selfist. The term is not nearly as sexy as Satanist, or for that matter Interrogist, but it gets to the heart of where I am at this time in my life. I realize, and accept as natural and “good”, that what I do, I do for selfish reasons. Even when I help others, it is ultimately because I get something personally out of the deal. I don’t think of this as a form but rather as a fact of life that I choose to embrace. My “path” – what I do – is simply to get the most out of life.

I think most people who claim the title of Satanist have a similar philosophy but use the idea of Satan as a model for what living life on one’s own terms entails. Is such a model/patron necessary? No. But I don’t think it hurts to have an ideal to aspire to, as long as the ideal doesn’t become a substitute for the real thing – the living, breathing, thinking Self calling the shots.
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#61509 - 11/17/11 01:06 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Interrogist]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
How is it that anyone might envision a future mankind setting foot on new worlds, bible in hand? It matters little to me that the bible says Holy God or Evil Satan, it could even say the SIN, or the 600 Club on the cover. The point is, belief is one thing, while proven methods are another, and my method, and that of many others, is the Fire of scrutiny that eradicates useless hindrance, that the Stone of logic and science might be strengthened, and that the Tribe flourish.


I was referring to use of form/belief as a tool. But even from an esoteric perspective, the "Great Work" leads one to realize nondualism, in that all human labels and apparent contradictions have no ultimate substance.

 Quote:

Listen to you speaking of this concept as though it were a person. Your addressing how one form has influenced another form... Are you in there somewhere? I hope so. The essence underlying these forms is Human, thus the human essence is the most important. Not how forms get along or progress... wtf?


Don't get me wrong, but I generally don't see a need to tack on a metaphysical disclaimer every time I anthropomorphize a concept or talk about mythos. My interest such outer aspects is largely a by-product of my fascination with comparative mythology.

I readily acknowledge that I will inevitably leave the species (if I may employ Nazarene terminology) of Satanism behind once they are no longer useful to me.


Edited by The Zebu (11/17/11 01:07 PM)
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#61510 - 11/17/11 01:09 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: William Wright]
Interrogist Offline
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Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
Interrogist, first you are right that “Interrogism” is not mentioned in your link. I stand corrected.


Thank you William,

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
I understand where you’re coming from with regard to forms. Lately I’ve come to see myself first and foremost as a Selfist. The term is not nearly as sexy as Satanist, or for that matter Interrogist, but it gets to the heart of where I am at this time in my life. I realize, and accept as natural and “good”, that what I do, I do for selfish reasons. Even when I help others, it is ultimately because I get something personally out of the deal. I don’t think of this as a form but rather as a fact of life that I choose to embrace. My “path” – what I do – is simply to get the most out of life.


Ill agree and disagree. First I will agree that the self is selfish. That's self evident. Where I disagree however, is that this aspect of nature, is in no way god or bad, right or wrong. The nature of a animal is quite simply phenomenon. Feelings and morality are a finer aspect of the machine we call consciousness, who's design is to propel that phenomenon through phenomenal dimension. All in all, I hold it to be an Interrogistic 'truth' that a recognition of casual chains, thus, anticipation of said phenomenon, serves one better than being bound to conventional morality, which guides ones sight to mundane lenses. Make of that what you will. You may also focus on what it is that you call the 'self'.

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
I think most people who claim the title of Satanist have a similar philosophy but use the idea of Satan as a model for what living life on one’s own terms entails. Is such a model/patron necessary? No. But I don’t think it hurts to have an ideal to aspire to, as long as the ideal doesn’t become a substitute for the real thing – the living, breathing, thinking Self calling the shots.


That odd, because if the living, breathing self is calling the shots, and is THERE, how could it ever be logically reasoned that its representative need be something that can not live, can not breath, calls no shots, and is not THERE? It seems to me that these 'selves' would do well to define themselves by their own individual terms. But hey, that's just one 'self's opinion. Ill keep pointing out that such a loose title will always be plagued with more forms than essence, not that some few do not retain that essence, though, I see no such need whatsoever to maintain the useless forms of yesteryear.
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#61512 - 11/17/11 01:23 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: The Zebu]
Interrogist Offline
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Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I readily acknowledge that I will inevitably leave the species (if I may employ Nazarene terminology) of Satanism behind once they are no longer useful to me.


Well, in that case we most certainly agree. Thats the point I aim to point out, that all of these philosophical hats, are just that. One aught to absorb what is available, and move on. Mind you, that I believe that it is also possible for one generation to pass on what has been absorbed, to the fallowing generations, that they have no need of repetitious forms throughout human history.

Any time you see a given form repeat itself throughout many generations, it is stagnation you view, and the form being held above personal and generational progress. All that need be repeated in each generation is pathei mathos or what I call the school of hard knocks, that each generation internalize the practical methods by which our kollective knowledge be utilized.
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#61516 - 11/17/11 03:31 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Interrogist]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Interrogist

Well, in that case we most certainly agree. Thats the point I aim to point out, that all of these philosophical hats, are just that. One aught to absorb what is available, and move on. Mind you, that I believe that it is also possible for one generation to pass on what has been absorbed, to the fallowing generations, that they have no need of repetitious forms throughout human history.


I don't necessarily agree. In the end form is just a tool to express content and the usefulness of this form depends entirely upon how good it does its job. As such, certain forms can be viable for ages while others only have their use for short amounts of time.

D.

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#61520 - 11/17/11 04:25 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Diavolo]
Interrogist Offline
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Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

I don't necessarily agree. In the end form is just a tool to express content and the usefulness of this form depends entirely upon how good it does its job. As such, certain forms can be viable for ages while others only have their use for short amounts of time.

D.


So it would seem that form is useful as a tool, so long as it fits the social environment. Id agree with that, and also add that the environment is prone to change. One should be able to morph with it, that the job be done, as if to say that the same job is not always going to be needed, and another form must be utilized. So why not simply do away with the form, and keep the tools, so to speak?
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#61521 - 11/17/11 04:30 PM Re: Interrogistic Symbolism [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3773
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Darryl

As I see it, Satan is not needed, nor Set, nor any titled deity or archetype. Forms are vehicles of enlightenment and personal development, and becoming stuck in any one form is to restrict that growth,


Enlightenment? That's really one of those words that make my skin crawl. Anyhow, I disagree. In this context, 'forms' are a vehicle of expression for essence. Also, you seem to be speaking as if there was some sort of destination we need to get to. Where exactly is this ' enlightenment' located? ;\)

 Quote:

thus logic dictates that, while all forms must be Interrogated, ultimately, all Interrogated forms must be torn down, that the adherent Know that they have not become stuck.

Ok, why? The point of the application of fire to ideas and concepts is to find what works and what doesn't. The idea that everything must constantly be torn down and replaced seems to miss the essence of that. Forms are useful within their given context, as tools. Would you toss out your framing hammer because you feel using a screwdriver would make you stand out more?
 Quote:

Also the knowledge gained by ones elders, while exploring the said forms, can be passed along to the fallowing generation, without passing along the said form as well.

Categorizations are useful though. If you rip the label off a can it doesn't change the contents.

 Quote:

This is the only method by which man kind might advance beyond the Need of the forms restricted predefined paths.

Say what? Form is the 'language', essence is the meaning. Sure you can make up your own language..but you'll end up talking only to yourself.

 Quote:

Or are we now speaking of a predefined LHP? A snake must shed its skin, or cease to grow, and that's the bottom line for me.

Definitions are all we have. We label, we classify, we categorize. Yes the term LHP has been predefined, else why use the term at all?

We can never be free of form, or of abstractions, until such a time as our thoughts are no longer bound to language and reason. All we can do is use what fits best at any given time.
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