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#61531 - 11/17/11 05:56 PM "Becoming" a Satanist?
PrinceOfBabalon Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 49
Loc: London
“Satanists are born not made”.

If this is true, does it mean that an individual isn’t free to become more than what they are?

For example, let’s take a hypothetical person; Randy. All of his life Randy has been pushed around by other people and he has always put other people’s desires before his own. Like any human being, he hasn’t really found pleasure in doing this but has done it anyway because he was taught it is “the right thing to do”. Randy has talents, he’s a gifted musician although he hasn’t focused on a career in music because his parents told him to “keep his feet on the ground”. He gets married and has kids; both his partner and his children treat him without respect. But one day something trips. Randy realizes that his life has been a sham and based on false premises. He leaves his partner/children and begins to act out his deepest sexual desires. He cuts all contact with psychic vampires, buys a piano, makes a music career for himself and goes on to live a happy and successful life.

Has Randy "become" a de facto Satanist?

I suppose an argument could be that everyone is born a Satanist and it’s those who have recognized that and accepted what it means that have raised themselves above the herd. If so, does that mean that Satanist elitism is only based on the idea that others are deluded?

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#61541 - 11/17/11 08:50 PM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: PrinceOfBabalon]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
One need not be a Satanist to live a happy and successful life.

Otherwise, one could speculate whether or not one is a Satanist because of their inherent nature, or solely because of experience. It pretty much boils down to a question of free will vs. determinism, or some compromise between the two. I kinda don't see the point in getting into the nitpicky details of it.
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«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#61543 - 11/17/11 09:19 PM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: The Zebu]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I cannot believe that such a simple statement cannot be understood by so many people.

Simply put... SATANISTS ARE BORN AND NOT MADE means that IF you find yourself resonating to "satanic" philosophy to such an extent that you find it describes you, it is because you are genetically or psychologically predisposed to find and accept those attributes in your own life.

It does not mean you WILL be a Satanist by acclamation or even in a defacto sense. It simply means that those who find their way to self acceptance of the term have the ability to accept that term normally and naturally as a philosophical construct.

THOUSANDS of people will hear and examine the term "Satanist," and find that it is not for them.

Millions of people will claim titles thrust upon them because of culture, heredity or geographic point of conception and/or birth. They will, most probably, become what is expected of them. But even here, there could well be one whose mind is naturally drawn to "the other." In his culture it might not be called SATAN, but something else altogether, discordant to the societal norms.

It's not rocket surgery, people.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#61547 - 11/17/11 11:46 PM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: Jake999]
Vondraco Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 28
Loc: Houston, TX
One can become a Satanist by the very simple means of sending Me $200, in return for which I shall send you a little cardboard ID badge with which you can identify yourself as a Satanist and which will give you the RIGHT to call yourself now and forevermore ... a SATANIST!

Paypal accepted.
_________________________
Mathematician by training, Philosopher by nature
Genius by genetics, Hedonist by desire!

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#61548 - 11/17/11 11:55 PM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: Jake999]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Stuff


What he said.

As it is oft-trumpeted, you either buy it or you don't. Those who do will commonly feel that Satanism is reflected in their own nature. Whether you want to call it "born" or whatnot isn't that important.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999

It's not rocket surgery, people.


That sounds painful.


Edited by The Zebu (11/17/11 11:56 PM)
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«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#61549 - 11/17/11 11:56 PM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: Vondraco]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
FuckinHell...at least I'd offer up a personalized airbrushed T-shirt. Something a bit more showy than some cardboard ID card. Although if they wanted that, I could even provide that too.

I can accept PayPal as well. ;\)
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If only just for today.....

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#61550 - 11/18/11 12:00 AM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: Vondraco]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
200$ eh? I will send out a little membership card for 50$ . Sorry to undercut you . But I am nearly outta beer and smokes.

Edited by blackzach (11/18/11 12:01 AM)
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#61551 - 11/18/11 12:41 AM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: PrinceOfBabalon]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: New York
I believe that Satanism can evolve and mature within a person over time, but only if it's in the persons psyche to begin with. If a person is not born with at least the spark of the black flame, no amount of studying and wishing can ignite it.
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#61583 - 11/19/11 05:57 AM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: Vondraco]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Vondraco
One can become a Satanist by the very simple means of sending Me $200, in return for which I shall send you a little cardboard ID badge with which you can identify yourself as a Satanist and which will give you the RIGHT to call yourself now and forevermore ... a SATANIST!

Paypal accepted.


I have to respond here because even people like Vondraco who, by all appearances and presentation, appears to be an intelligent individual, yet the somehow get this off kilter idea in their head that the Church of Satan's entry fee entitles one to "call themselves a Satanist."

I don't know what The Church of Satan is telling people now, but this was never the case... I doubt it is now.

In tendering your money to The Church of Satan, you ARE NOT getting the right to call yourself a Satanist. You have already at that point proclaimed yourself as such, which is the right of any man or woman. In my capacity as Administrator for The Church of Satan, I had the occasion to process memberships and send out new letters of acceptance for those who had asked to join the Church of Satan. And there is the rub... this fee was to become a member of The Church of Satan, much the same as one might pay an entry fee for become a member of the Fraternal Order of Eagles, The Elks, The Oddfellows, or any other private organization. And the Church of Satan was a private organization, not a tax exempt religious order.

The standard letter of acceptance read, in part:

"We are pleased to inform you that you have been accepted for membership in the Church of Satan. The enclosed identification card confers upon you a status and affiliation that many falsely assume but few actually attain. You are now more than a Satanist. (PLEASE NOTICE THERE WAS NO FEE TO ACKNOWLEDGE YOU AS A SATANIST... THIS IS WHERE THE IGNORANT AND UNKNOWING MAKE THIS MISTAKE.) You are a pledged and accepted member of The Church of Satan. In granting you membership, we have evaluated your potential and feel that your official alliance with us will enhance both your own identity and the strength of our organization."

Of course there is more within the letter of welcome, but nothing particularly relevant to this. It was the same in 1973 when I got my letter and it was the same when I sent out my last letter as Administrator in the later half of the 1980s.

So it comes down to a simple case of "Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself." If you, or anyone else wants to be a Member of The Church of Satan... it's THEIR MONEY. They have every right to spend it as they wish. If you DON'T want to be a Member of the Church of Satan... DUH!!!! Don't send the requisite initiation fees.

No one says you can't be a Satanist without being a member of The Church of Satan.
You can call yourself anything you want if you are or are not a member of that group.

Will this be the end of this red herring? Probably not. Too many people talk out of their ass and too many people are all to willing to listen. All I can do is give you the skinny from someone who's been there.

_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#61585 - 11/19/11 07:34 AM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: Jake999]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
"I cannot believe that such a simple statement cannot be understood by so many people." - Jake999

Oh come on, Jake, people (apparently) can't understand what, "Do not smoke" or ,"Keep left" means. I know this is a forum for the elect ;\) but keep it real, yeah?

Seriously, Jake's two last posts here could do with adding to the Satanism 101 thread, in the dim hope that visitors to the site might actually read them, of course.

Face it - the majority of people just luuuurve paying for affirmation because they are too damn scared to decide who and what they are for themselves and live it out.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#61588 - 11/19/11 12:34 PM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: PrinceOfBabalon]
LeftHandonFeet Offline
member


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 109
I find it very true that the traits of a Satanist found in literature point more to human nature than a list of accomplishments or establishments. This being true, we can find it quite natural to point to how humans are in general, not to a certain group of persons who seek to produce evidence of their own noteworthiness and importance based on their stance in life.
Since the human is born with many of our traits embedded in our subconscious, yes it can be concluded that we are born Satanists. Does this mean all humans end up walking The Left Hand Path and professing to be children of the Dark or you might even say evil? Why most certainly not. After all, many are in opposition to Satanism and say this on television, radio, music, internet, in person and through literature - be them against the deity of Satan himself or the religion of Satanism or other religions of Dark Arts.
So what is the difference in someone who professes to be Left Handed and someone who is not? Somewhere in their lifetime, the person who is not Left Handed has been influenced in some form or another by a person or persons that does not agree to Left Handed philosophy- perhaps based on experience, many times based on he said - she said bullshit.
It was while reading PrinceofBabalon post that I am reminded of the Nine Satanic Statements and the revelation of humanities carnal nature that it reflects upon. Relating the Statements to PrinceofBablons view, I believe it is safe to say that persons who do not agree with or even oppose Satanism for that matter are not secure in their themselves as Satanists are. Certainly non-Satanists do not realize this, otherwise the world would be jet Black and much more shed of hypocrisy. I find it easy to be myself in public in a way that allows people to know that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Satanist and being Left Handed is in fact quite profitable psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, socially, sexually, and yes even financially. Afterall, any religion or spirituality should teach its followers or members to better themselves. Failure to do so creates a mass of senseless followers who blindly sacrifice themselves and endanger themselves by ignoring the void that their "leaders" never care to fill or feed- its called the impoverished ego. No the ego is not a tool to throw your weight around with unwise assumptions that you are better than everyone near you- I would coin the ego as a freeze-frame picture of ones confidence in themselves and their comfort level with living according to their own desires regardless of who calls them "wrong". The more confident you are that you have chosen the correct Path, the less likely you are to take heed to conviction, or let conviction bother you for that matter.
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"I’m just another hardline psuedo-statistic
Can you feel this?" Slipknot - The Blister Exists


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#61617 - 11/20/11 02:23 AM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: LeftHandonFeet]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
I like to think of the topic of "becoming a satanist" as more of realization, that one does not become a satanist but that one simply has to realize that they already are. That Satanism at its core is the pursuit of both knowledge and understanding of all man's base needs and desires. One "becomes" a satanist when they acknowledge the ultimate truths of our existence that we are animals with lusts and drives of all kinds and that trully getting the most out of this human reality.

it also has a quasi mystic bullshit feeling to it which makes it sound cooler to say out loud

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#61643 - 11/21/11 11:06 AM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: Meph9]
RAIDER Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
Meph9 sums it up really well. I would add that for me the quasi mystic bullshit is important for it's emotional/creative expression value.
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#61644 - 11/21/11 12:05 PM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: Meph9]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Meph9
I like to think of the topic of "becoming a satanist" as more of realization, that one does not become a satanist but that one simply has to realize that they already are. That Satanism at its core is the pursuit of both knowledge and understanding of all man's base needs and desires. One "becomes" a satanist when they acknowledge the ultimate truths of our existence that we are animals with lusts and drives of all kinds and that trully getting the most out of this human reality.

it also has a quasi mystic bullshit feeling to it which makes it sound cooler to say out loud


I guess this could be true if you see LaVeys works as the alpha and omega, but some of us find that not only is that a pretty small box, but insulting to the work and memory of the man himself.

Satanism is an expression of heterodox tradition antinomian behaviour, plain and simple. The ideas he expressed in the 60s were downright heretical, but heresies do change with the times.

With that said I feel little but contempt for these would be Satanists that simply read something, get that warm fuzzy feeling, declare themselves a Satanist and go about their orthodoxies, indistinguishable in praxis from anyone else save for maybe a few spooky rituals conducted behind closed doors.

Satanism is something you DO, not a cushion to keep your ass warm.
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#61720 - 11/23/11 06:53 PM Re: "Becoming" a Satanist? [Re: PrinceOfBabalon]
Goliath Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 93
 Originally Posted By: PrinceOfBabalon
“Satanists are born not made”.

If this is true, does it mean that an individual isn’t free to become more than what they are?


I think the answer to this question is pretty clearly "yes, it does mean that."

With apologies to Jake, I think part of the problem here is that this expression--"Satanists are born not made"--is actually pretty vague. Indeed, strictly speaking, it's a false antithesis, since before we can be "born" we must first be "made"--that is to say, conceived by our parents.

Interpreted less strictly, and in the light of exegeses like Jake's, it seems to mean merely that Satanists possess a particular, Satanistic nature. And that people with a Satanistic nature, once exposed to Satanism, will see themselves reflected therein, recognize its ideas as their own, and come to identify themselves as Satanists. Those with a different nature, will not.

Whether or not people with a Satanistic nature will ever come to identify as Satanists is a matter of chance. They may live their whole lives without ever hearing of Satan, let alone being exposed to Satanism. But they will live in accordance with their own nature, and be what they are, no matter what they call themselves.

The important point seems to be that someone without a Satanistic nature cannot be taught to be a Satanist, in the same way that someone without musical talent cannot be taught to be a musician. You can send a child to as many piano lessons as you like, but if they don't have an aptitude for it, they will never be a pianist. At worst, they'll live a life of disappointment and frustration, trying and failing to fulfill someone else's destiny instead of their own.

Teaching a talented child to play, by contrast, does not turn them into something more than they were: it merely unlocks their potential, and gives them the skills they need to express themselves musically.

I could provide another example from my own life. After I graduated from university, I spent four years working in a plastic container factory. I could do the work--in fact, I was promoted off the production line to quality control, and offered further promotions as well. But I was never happy there, and turned down those further promotions because they involved a permanent commitment that I wasn't willing to make. Though that job was right for me at the time--I grew up a lot in those four years--I knew, deep down, that I was born for something else. Finally, when the time was right, I left that job, went to graduate school, and began to pursue my true destiny, in academia.

As these examples suggest, the formula that "Satanists are born not made" is both true, and rather trivial, since one could say the same thing about any other type of person. Pianists and history professors are born not made, just like Satanists. Its chief value, in my opinion, lies in exposing and opposing the pretensions of universalizing religions like Islam and Christianity, and other value systems which claim to be true and appropriate for all people, at all times, everywhere.

To assert that "Satanists are born not made" is to assert our right to live in accordance with nature--both our own particular nature, and the nature of the world. It's not a choice, and certainly not a sin. Like the song says--we were born this way.
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