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#61874 - 11/26/11 05:19 PM CoS a Reaction Against Christianity?
Oxus Offline
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Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 497
Let me begin by stating that this is in no way my opinion of, or my agreement with, concerning the creation of the CoS. I am posting a few comments I found on another forum because I found the premise interesting and would like to hear what some of you have to say here on the 600C.

 Quote:
. . . It's entire concept is defined by Christian beliefs.

. . . if the bible didn't exist the Church of Satan would be called something else . . . I know Satanists don't generally believe in the devil, I am saying Anton rejected the Christian way for a reason, without the reason would there still be a Satanic bible?


Indeed all we can do is speculate, but I wonder if there would ever have been a CoS or ToS for that matter without Christianity?


Edited by Oxus (11/26/11 05:21 PM)

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#61876 - 11/26/11 05:46 PM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Oxus]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Are you including the Jewish and Muslim beliefs as well since they share parts of the same book?

No matter what the belief system, I am sure there would be those who rebel against it.


M
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#61879 - 11/26/11 07:06 PM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Morgan]
Oxus Offline
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Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 497
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Are you including the Jewish and Muslim beliefs as well since they share parts of the same book?

No matter what the belief system, I am sure there would be those who rebel against it.


M

Good point Morgan, how about the whole of Abrahamic faiths? What if non of these systems every took place?
Do you feel that a form of Satanism would have taken place?
** Just throwing this out, we can all take this in any direction.

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#61892 - 11/26/11 11:45 PM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Oxus]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1631
Loc: Orlando, FL
Satanism speaks deeply to the nature of humanity, and draws its essence from the pride, defiance, and striving towards liberty that is shared by those of our kind. In our current world, such traits are collectively called "Satan".

We can choose to embrace such a label-- and by doing so, we can draw strength from the symbols and mythos associated therewith, at risk of being branded "reactionary".

Or we can reject this label and take upon ourselves a new one, which helps free us slightly from the arbitrary standards of the masses, but creates a difficulty in communication and exchanging ideas.

During the genesis of the CoS, Satanism was a banner under which LaVey was able to unite a diverse group of creative and freethinking deviants. The same could also be said of the ONA, ToS, FdO, FS, and other groups that endorsed some variety of "Satanism." Such systems are a means to an end, a vehicle to communicate an idea. Yes, the wrapper is influenced by Christianity (though I prefer the term "response" rather than "reaction"), but by getting caught up in the outer aspects, one may miss the interior substance.

 Quote:
Good point Morgan, how about the whole of Abrahamic faiths? What if non of these systems every took place?
Do you feel that a form of Satanism would have taken place?
** Just throwing this out, we can all take this in any direction.


Other mytho-religious figures could be a vessel for the radical antinomianism of Satanism... Dionysus, Typhon-Set, Saturn, Shiva, etc. One could even move past overt esoterisicm, and propose a hypothetical system based upon a historical figure or secular school of philosophy, which could adequately convey the ideas that are expressed by Satanism. It deserves notice, however, that none of these will be exactly like Satanism, since it cannot possibly manifest in an identical fashion given different cultural/temporal differences.
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#61894 - 11/27/11 12:39 AM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: The Zebu]
thedeadidea Offline
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Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
I think there is an aversion in humanity to be effected by something I am not sure if it some visceral attempt to assert an empty individuality. Or whether they are whispers of behaviorism, determinism and lack of a free soul that stirs their sub-conscious. But if I punched you in the face would you really feel bad for responding in kind ? Dishing out more pain.

Anyone read on Nietzsche knows he was responding to a criticism he himself made a realization of the impending nihilistic condition with much of his work he defines himself positively to alleviate the symptom. Likewise Lavey might respond to multiple influences in what he found agreeable and objectionable it does not mean he didn't define himself positively. So reacting does not necessarily leave one some kind of shill at the end of a spectrum.

I would agree or have to concede there would be no Satanism per-say with the term Satan if not for many things including the Hebrew language. But I think part of the human condition and nature itself works in a quasi-empirical abstraction that just would go on functioning without the discourse of Satanism.

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#61898 - 11/27/11 03:18 AM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Oxus]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3023
 Originally Posted By: Oxus

Indeed all we can do is speculate, but I wonder if there would ever have been a CoS or ToS for that matter without Christianity?

There would have existed a form of Satanism or an organized group.
Humans tend to disagree with each other the whole time as soon as a little authority has been called.
You can look at the ancient egyptian culture and find groups of individuals which were in adverse towards the settled gods.

You can also look at the old tribal behavior of some African cultures. Even in Eastern philosophies there are groups which oppose each other. One just has to open a history book on religion and will clearly see that adversary will be present.
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#61907 - 11/27/11 09:14 AM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Dimitri]
Bette Doom Offline
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Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 134
Loc: Virginia, USA
I would like to say the the "Church of Satan" might have been called any number of things if the canon Bible as we know it was either different, untranslated, partially lost/destroyed, or didn't exist at all. A more important question to ask might be "would California in the 1960s have produced something remotely equivalent to the CoS had Anton LaVey never founded it himself?"

Personally, I like to think that by that time, it would have been truly mysterious and inexplicable if no one did.

It should be clear by now that the CoS was a reaction to the prevailing popular culture of the time, and not merely "Christianity." Consider the deliberate efforts made to twist the noses and offend the sensibilities of non-Christians be they New Agers, liberals, peacetards, etc.
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#61936 - 11/27/11 06:12 PM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Bette Doom]
LeftHandonFeet Offline
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Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 109
The CoS definitely was founded to be anti-Christian, even if not its sole intent. The flip side of this same coin is being pro-Satan. Part of being pro-Satan is being pro-self and feeding the impoverished ego.

Also keep in mind anti-Christian does not simply entail you are against Christianity. It more accurately entails that you have the antithesis replacement for the concept of a Christ and/or any system devoted to a Christ embedded in your mindset. Again, pro-Satan is as important to the CoS as being anti-Christian.
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#61938 - 11/27/11 10:18 PM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: LeftHandonFeet]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
The Church of Satan was founded to be ANTI RELIGIONIST. If you read The Satanic Bible, you will see that term. While the primary target in the US was of course dominant Christianity, LaVey clearly has disdain for any and all of the religions that bring man away from his carnality and into the white light.

If the dominant power in the US at the time of its writing had been Muslim, LaVey would have hit at that hardest. He was a man who was bold enough to say NO. It didn't matter who said "Thou Shalt."
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#61946 - 11/28/11 01:38 AM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Oxus]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2367
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
The Church of Satan was the result of Anton LaVey's and the other original Magic Circle members' interest in spooky fun. Cf. Anton's weekly lecture topics in my Church of Satan by way of illustration. Judæo/Christianity was just something to whoopie-cushion along with other hypocritical social institutions. Of course when Ed Webber suggested that the MC would get more attention as a Church of Satan, there was a sort of obligation to be "blasphemous", as for example in some of the Satanic Bible rants. But in its internal "social climate", the Church wasn't a theological or even emotional reaction against J/C. It was a positive, good-natured adventure in its own right/rite. I think this is pretty obvious, for instance, in the 1968 Satanis documentary.

There were occasional exceptions, who stuck out as exceptions: persons who came to the Church after bad experiences with J/C and a resultant hatred of it. Wayne West, author of the Missa Solemnis, is an example.

As for the Temple of Set, it is indifferent to J/C except as a historical social influence. Setians are again independently/positively motivated, ultimately by the phenomenon of isolate consciousness, and such motivation appears in any number of contexts, not just J/C or other mainstream religious ones.
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#61953 - 11/28/11 07:53 AM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1631
Loc: Orlando, FL
Aquino, I am curious; do you know what eventually became of Wayne West? From the people I have seen so far, those who have the strongest overt anti-Christian fixation are also the ones most likely to ditch Satanism for some variety of neopaganism once the blasphemy fetish wears off...
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#61967 - 11/28/11 03:17 PM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: The Zebu]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2367
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Aquino, I am curious; do you know what eventually became of Wayne West? From the people I have seen so far, those who have the strongest overt anti-Christian fixation are also the ones most likely to ditch Satanism for some variety of neopaganism once the blasphemy fetish wears off...

No, I had no contact with WW after he left; I think his "Church of Man" (?) was relatively short-lived, but don't know for certain. I don't know the statistics for you second question, but generally the motives for neopaganism (Wicca) are substantially different than for traditional or revisionist Satanism.
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#61982 - 11/28/11 09:05 PM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 849
Loc: Nashville
I like the idea of a “Church of Man.” For those who subscribe to the concept “Every man/woman is a potential god in the making,” such a church may sound attractive. The problem, I think, is that "Man" is not nearly as colorful as “Satan.” It’s like the difference between, say, the “Church of Music” and the “Church of Elvis.” Music may be more to the point, but it’s Elvis who draws the crowds.
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#61986 - 11/28/11 10:20 PM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: William Wright]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
It’s like the difference between, say, the “Church of Music” and the “Church of Elvis.” Music may be more to the point, but it’s Elvis who draws the crowds.



EXCELLENT. My hat's off to you for this one.
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#62047 - 11/30/11 10:13 AM Re: CoS a Reaction Against Christianity? [Re: Oxus]
FemaleSatan Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 547
Loc: The Dirty South
I think the CoS is a reaction to Christianity. Christianity and it's values, ideals, morality, etc have been the dominating force in Western culture for a long time. It deserved and still deserves a reaction, somebody to push back against that influence.

FS3.0
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