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#6410 - 03/26/08 11:03 AM Atheism
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Now, this is something that comes up again and again here. I tend to assume that everyone here is Atheist simply because as I see it Satanism is a natural progression from active Atheism, it almost seems to me that Atheism is a prerequesit of Satanism, (obviously I'm not talking about "traditional Satanism" because let's face it, that's just nonsence anyway).

So what is my point. Well it's simply this. It's about time that we didn't make these assumptions anymore, because I imagine (read: hope) I'm not the only person doing so. So my question to you guys is simple. Who here identifies themselves as an Atheist, and who identifies themselves as a theist.

This is something I posted on a forum before and I had more people reply "agnostic" or "don't know" than the two options given. The members of this forum are likely more intelligent so the rest of this post is likely unneeded but I'll post it anyway.

Here is a hint, you are either Atheist or theist, you are one or the other... you can't be both, they're mutually exclusive, however you HAVE to be one of them. Agnostic is not an option, to be agnostic is to admit that you don't know, as no-one knows EVERYONE is agnostic, if you don't activally believe in a deity or deities yet are open to the possibility you are still an Atheist, you're just an agnostic Atheist.

Look at it like this. Some people have blue eyes. Everyone either has blue eyes or does not have blue eyes. EVERYONE falls into one of those two catergories, no-one falls into both, no-one falls into neither.

Anyone who actively claims to be neither Atheist or theist will be added to my ignore list, if you are desperate to be an idiot choose another topic.

Hopefully this will clear things up, and will give people some perspective on eachothers beliefs.
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#6416 - 03/26/08 12:21 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1551
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Now, this is something that comes up again and again here. I tend to assume that everyone here is atheist simply because as I see it satanism is a natural progression from active atheism, it almost seems to me that atheism is a prerequesit of satanism, (obviously I'm not talking about "traditional satanism" because let's face it, that's just nonsence anyway).

I myself for the time being am atheistic in my views this is well known… I must ask why should anyone put themselves on a list for you? After you basically saying “hey guys all theists up against the wall, time to expose your nonsense”… What makes you think any theist would respect you enough to bother to answer you honestly?

Maybe it is only that I have been here longer than you, perhaps I comprehend and retain things at a different level… Maybe it is only that I have talked to more of the old timers in chat and through PM’s than yourself but I myself have a good mental list of who is traditional and who is not… Much can be gained from actually reading the various posts and building online friendships…

On perspective…

To simplify the matter let us use your example of eye color… Reality is hazel eyes can be blue or green therefore they are both… I could be colorblind then from my perspective everyone falls into the neither category…

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Anyone who actively claims to be neither atheist or theist will be added to my ignore list, if you are desperate to be an idiot choose another topic.

I hope that was a holdover from the other site you posted this at… If not get over yourself… While I agree that someone not knowing what their belief is may be seen as ignorant or down right stupid… The ignore button it is there for a reason but to threaten with it like your some golden boy is laughable…

Peace

~T~
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#6417 - 03/26/08 12:37 PM Re: Atheism [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
This was more because there are new people joining all the time, and I would like to know who beleives in a god and who doesn't as it's often the basis of our discussions here and thus a bad thing to make assumptions of.

As for the ignore button, I've yet to use it, but someone with such ignorance that they don't even know what they themselves beleive should not even be here. My comment remains the same, I mean it as it sounds.

If someone disagrees with me I would not ignore them, if someone is clearly so ignorant that they don't understand basic principles, why not add them to the ignore list... in all honesty though I'd likely not bother, as I'm a lazy sod, I'd just ignore each post individually.
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#6421 - 03/26/08 01:50 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 83
 Quote:
This was more because there are new people joining all the time, and I would like to know who beleives in a god and who doesn't as it's often the basis of our discussions here and thus a bad thing to make assumptions of.


Depending on your definition of the word "God", I could describe myself as either an Atheist, or a theist. In some senses, God exists, in others He doesn't. It's a poetic term with a great deal of cultural resonance, and it has its uses.

Of course, "objectively" speaking, the question is meaningless, but that doesn't mean we can't have fun with it.

Stag

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#6422 - 03/26/08 01:53 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
I believe the word "God" or "god", is definitive enough, "deity" or the like to be exclusive holds on "religion", which is another word that is simply a pretext anecdote or justification for murder or genocide.
Yes the word "god" holds meaning to me.

In fairness: omnipotence, and omnipresence are not found. (The words meaning unequaled, unescapable) These characteristics are held by the 4 dimensions. Not by an individual human. I still would say that my take leans more to the side you defined as atheistic.


Edited by Kon (03/26/08 01:58 PM)
Edit Reason: Re word
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#6423 - 03/26/08 02:17 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Stag]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Stag
Depending on your definition of the word "God", I could describe myself as either an Atheist, or a theist. In some senses, God exists, in others He doesn't. It's a poetic term with a great deal of cultural resonance, and it has its uses.

Of course, "objectively" speaking, the question is meaningless, but that doesn't mean we can't have fun with it.

Stag


Ok. Maybe I was a little vauge, but I assumed it was self explainatory. I'll define what I mean anyway.

By "God" or "Deity" I mean simply an intelligent being that created the world/universe etc. Not of any specific religion, but simply an intelligent conscious creator that decided to create everything. It doesn't have to be infalable, omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent, it doesn't even have to be just one god or diety.

Simply, do you or do you not believe that there is a God of some kind. If you do you are a theist, is not you are an Atheist... if you've never given it any thought you are also an Atheist.

If you are specifically opposed to the idea of a god that is different, that is antitheism, but an antitheist is still also an Atheist.
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#6427 - 03/26/08 03:12 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 83
 Quote:
By "God" or "Deity" I mean simply an intelligent being that created the world/universe etc.

Each of us inhabits a subjective universe of our own creation, shaped to a greater or lesser degree by our culture and other experiences. In this sense, each and everyone of us is a God.

However, speaking of "God" as though it had some meaning outside of our own perception is nonsensical. In this sense I am an "Atheist".

God is a metaphor, but the metaphor is real.

Stag

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#6430 - 03/26/08 04:13 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Stag]
Sinistar Offline
member


Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 174
Loc: New York City
I wouldn't call myself an Atheist, I do tend to toe the line between the modern and traditional concepts. There's still many things beyond our grasp that I'm not going to pretend to have a clue about so I'm definitely not an Atheist.









Edited by Sinistar (03/26/08 04:13 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification
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#6432 - 03/26/08 05:28 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Sinistar]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Limelight among satanists, is not usually something appreciated.
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#6469 - 03/27/08 11:52 AM Re: Atheism [Re: Kon]
Sinistar Offline
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Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 174
Loc: New York City
I don't know what you're getting at, please clarify.
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#6470 - 03/27/08 12:06 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Sinistar]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Some things are better left unspoken is all, just supporting what you cared to share.
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#6474 - 03/27/08 01:17 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Kon]
Pan420 Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 72
Loc: New Mexico
As a new person to this site, I would like to say that I believe myself to be Atheist. My way of thinking is based on my life experiences. I have never felt the strong presence of someone or something looking after me. I hear religious people say they can feel a higher power watching them. I have been in the worst predictaments and no higher power saved me. Nothing. I was once a devoted christian follower. I went to church like four times a week. I mean i was the ultimate believer. But in time I started to see the lies the christian church has, the faults, just the way they are you know. And as I started looking away from their point of view I began to realize what I truely believe in. That there is no god above or some pointy horned devil with a pitch fork running loose. We are here through evolution and accident. We have only our selves to blame for our ignorance. And to look to a higher power and use him as a scape goat is popsterous. So I believe in myself as my own god. But to asnwer TC yes I am an Atheist.
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#6487 - 03/27/08 04:32 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Pan420]
PansGirl_v2.3 Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 30
Loc: TX U.S.
I, like Pan420, also consider myself my own god, so TornadoCreator, would you consider that Atheist or theist? If I believe myself to be omnipotent and all that jazz, that I can change my future and else, would you consider me a theist? Or because I don't believe in a force outside the self would that be Atheist? It's a fine line for me and being flexible, I can cross it anytime I want... Can you categorize me now?
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#6498 - 03/27/08 07:39 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Equilibrio Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 56
Loc: Missouri
I consider myself an Atheist, even though I technically fit the agnostic tag. Even Richard Dawkins rates himself as a "de facto" Atheist on his own atheism scale . (A scale of 1 - 7; 7 being "Strong Atheist") Dawkins rates himself a 6.8, and I would comfortably place myself right about there as well.

 Quote:
Here is a hint, you are either atheist or theist, you are one or the other... you can't be both, they're mutually exclusive


 Quote:
if you don't activally believe in a deity or deities yet are open to the possibility you are still an Atheist, you're just an agnostic atheist.


Are you saying that one can't be both, yet one can be both? That seems to be a matter of semantics and linguistic generalizations resulting in a false dilemma, as what we believe and what we know are two totally separate balls of wax, my man.

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#6522 - 03/28/08 04:45 AM Re: Atheism [Re: PansGirl_v2.3]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: PansGirl_v2.3
I, like Pan420, also consider myself my own god, so TornadoCreator, would you consider that atheist or theist? If I believe myself to be omnipotent and all that jazz, that I can change my future and else, would you consider me a theist? Or because I don't believe in a force outside the self would that be atheist? It's a fine line for me and being flexible, I can cross it anytime I want... Can you categorize me now?


As the being is yourself you would be an Atheist. Although people talk about this "I am my own God" stuff, they mean it poetically, they mean they have control over their own destiny to a greater or lesser degree depending on variables. Very few believe they are actually gods with the ability to change the world by shear will. The only people who claim this are philosophy students trying to make themselves feel intelligent by spouting crap about subjective universes made up of our perception (damn I hate philosophy), or the truly delusional.

As for equilibrio's point at the end of his post. You're misinterpreting my post. I not only agree with you, if you re-read you'll find we said the same things just worded differently.

I said you cannot be Atheist and Theist at the same time. You ARE Atheist and Agnostic at the same time. Everyone is Agnostic on this particular subject because no-one knows if a god exists. Read my posts carefully in future and these misunderstanding won't happen.
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