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#6541 - 03/28/08 02:05 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
 Quote:
The only people who claim this are philosophy students trying to make themselves feel intelligent by spouting crap about subjective universes made up of our perception (damn I hate philosophy)

Oh TC, can't help but think you're talking about me here. \:\) (though I'm neither a philosopher, nor a student).

Care to expand upon your disagreement? The distinction between subjective and pseudo-objective realities is a useful one in my opinion.

"Gods" and other such metaphysical entities exist as a shorthand for certain subjective phenomena, this does not make them any less 'real'. This only becomes problematic when people extrapolate this into the pseudo-objective, mistakenly assuming that my "god" is the same as yours -- ergo, "religion".

Stag

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#6550 - 03/28/08 06:35 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Equilibrio Offline
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Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 56
Loc: Missouri
Sorry for the misunderstanding, TC.

And for the record, I can also probably be described as anti theist, as I find the very concept of an external (and droolingly anthropomorphic) consciousness/creator to be not only insipid, but damaging as well. (Although I'm willing to give some of the more hedonistic Roman deities another shot.) ;\)

Even claiming to "be one's own god" seems to me to be a kind of cheapening of ones spiritual essence and may serve only to limit one's potential to the existing theistic frameworks.

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#6559 - 03/28/08 07:15 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator


As the being is yourself you would be an Atheist. Although people talk about this "I am my own God" stuff, they mean it poetically, they mean they have control over their own destiny to a greater or lesser degree depending on variables. Very few believe they are actually gods with the ability to change the world by shear will. The only people who claim this are philosophy students trying to make themselves feel intelligent by spouting crap about subjective universes made up of our perception (damn I hate philosophy), or the truly delusional.

As for equilibrio's point at the end of his post. You're misinterpreting my post. I not only agree with you, if you re-read you'll find we said the same things just worded differently.

I said you cannot be Atheist and Theist at the same time. You ARE Atheist and Agnostic at the same time. Everyone is Agnostic on this particular subject because no-one knows if a god exists. Read my posts carefully in future and these misunderstanding won't happen.


Ok, if we all read what you wrote here, conceivably we all failed, excuse the majority if what our beliefs cater to are not what yours particularly do. As far down as I've read I've seen nothing to disprove anyone, you are actually coming off to me as agreeable, none of us are falsifying information, it is simply our context with which we relay our opinions and debates. Now, I for one continually will seek a new mind opening discussion, proving you're argumentative and we're not will only make you look like an asshole, IF someone were to view this who had less perception of what might lay beyond the boundaries of this life. (ie. a n00b) Now what you just superfluously spouted as a philosophical stance I read as something I can summarize like this: "Our entire life on this earth, inside the 4 dimensions, is lived by the entirety of the world in the spirit realm" , "we've never actually walked a sidewalk, or seen stained concrete, bled, or felt pain with the exception of what we lived out in our spiritual walkthrough." Yeah....somebody that's that distorted welllll. You know, I think I would give Lady Luck the chance any time of day, as for hedonism *cough
If it hurts to reply, by all means, grab an advil because I just popped one and I feel my spirit is less troubled now.
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#6596 - 03/29/08 06:08 AM Re: Atheism [Re: Stag]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Stag
 Quote:
The only people who claim this are philosophy students trying to make themselves feel intelligent by spouting crap about subjective universes made up of our perception (damn I hate philosophy)

Oh TC, can't help but think you're talking about me here. \:\) (though I'm neither a philosopher, nor a student).

Care to expand upon your disagreement? The distinction between subjective and pseudo-objective realities is a useful one in my opinion.

"Gods" and other such metaphysical entities exist as a shorthand for certain subjective phenomena, this does not make them any less 'real'. This only becomes problematic when people extrapolate this into the pseudo-objective, mistakenly assuming that my "god" is the same as yours -- ergo, "religion".

Stag


If you believe you have the power to alter the world through shear will then yes this applies to you, however again I think I'm suffering from being less articulate than I like. People often read wrong meaning into my posts and I'm starting to wonder if it's not just the way it's written causing the confusion.

I personally hate philosophy. All philosophical arguments I have ever been a part in consist of various bouts of reductio ad absurdum until we reach a point where everyone is agreeing that everything is subjective, impossible to understand and the argument has become so fucking abstract that we're now debating over whether or not we exist in an objective universe when the debate started over the moral implications of abortion. It's pseudo-intelligence that I find insulting. When your point is so unimportant or abstract that it holds no bearing on the universe you no longer have a point, most philosophical points RELY on the argument becoming nothing but abstract.

Hopefully people will understand why I dislike philosophy now.
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#6597 - 03/29/08 07:11 AM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
I understand the meaning of your OP, I just thought it might be interesting to question some of the underlying assumptions implicit in the use of the terms "Atheist" and "theist" -- and by extension the nature of "God".

I also appreciate your stated dislike of philosophy. All too often, philosophers make the mistake of thinking that the universe is made up of "words", and if only we could find all the right "words" to explain it, we'd have finally figured it all out. Like you, I have little time for this sort of meaningless sophistry.

I am a firm proponent in the scientific process, because, well -- it works. Nevertheless, we should acknowledge that it has its limits -- namely that particular sphere of our experience which is amenable to the empirical process; the "pseudo-objective", if you will. The rest of our experiences; our values, our ethics, our sense of meaning and so on lie beyond the reach of pure science. Something has to address this gap, you can call this a 'philosophy' if you want.

Religious language can sometimes be useful in this regard -- By putting things in terms of "God" or "Satan" etc., we can work to better our understanding of ourselves and our place within the universe.

Stag

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#6601 - 03/29/08 09:30 AM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
All philosophical arguments I have ever been a part in consist of various bouts of reductio ad absurdum until we reach a point where everyone is agreeing that everything is subjective, impossible to understand and the argument has become so fucking abstract that we're now debating over whether or not we exist in an objective universe when the debate started over the moral implications of abortion.


LOL, that's a gentle debate in my experience TC.
Many people are extremely reluctant to admit that their opinions are 'subjective', particularly where 'right and wrong' are concerned.
In my experience, moral debates are more likely to take an ad hominem turn, and turn into a rant about how much of a fucking prick people are who hold opposing views, how 'decent people' always agree with certain moral dogmas, and how people who don't agree necessarily lack moral fibre/are immature/mentally ill/weird/evil, etc. etc. etc.....

This seems to be the only 'argument' theists have against Atheism: Without a belief in God, there can be no absolute right and wrong, so everything is permitted, and you might as well rape, steal and kill everyone in sight.

To many theists, such a fear overrides the fear of being 'intellectually dishonest'.
As far as this argument is concerned - yes, it is intellectually dishonest. But thanks to the theists' circular logic - thinking like this is preferable to abandoning absolute moral codes which rest on the notion of god...

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#6764 - 03/30/08 06:08 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Meq]
Kon Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Valid points Mequa, I don't deny you have some experience in this kind of rhetoric, though this redundant "spiral" you've chosen to comment on is what we all aimed to dissipate with our posts. Proof is not in vain, unless the forger is caught. You've managed to juggle a bit of what we all said, and attempted to summarize, but it's not that easy or simple. The reason religion calls itself religion is because it isn't just a philosophy. We all know how redundant and sometimes chaotically contradictory religion can be, but I also know this about it aside from it being the number one calling card of a justifiable murder or military onslaught, it's an attempt to starve out philosophical concept with fact.

Forget about subjective, right and wrong is definable by anything and everything you've chosen to believe, why don't I just tow whatever you say around with me, and then we can start calling you a preacher.

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#6856 - 03/31/08 03:43 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Pan420 Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 72
Loc: New Mexico
Has anyone here actually seen a god, or any trace of a diety? I hear from people that claim to be Satanists and they claim to have invoked an infernal god and they apppeared to them. Can this be true? If so then how do I go about it?
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Pan420

"Use your fist and not your mouth",
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#6860 - 03/31/08 04:57 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Pan420]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
No it's not true. They have not invoked an infernal god. You can experience meeting an infernal god by doing the following things.

Step by step for invoking an infernal god.

1. Draw a large Pentagram on the floor in a mix of red sands and salt.
2. Light sandalwood incense at each of the 5 points.
3. Say "Appear To Me, My Lord Lucifer" in Latin.
4. Consume a large quantity of mushrooms, obtainable from my friend Bob for a set price.

Please Note: Bob's prices are high, but remember these mushrooms are magic, and used for raising demons or gods.

In short, no a deity has never manifested. If it has I defy it now. Show yourself to me... prove you exist if you have so much as a drop of the power these psycho's claim....

....nope never showed himself.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#6925 - 04/01/08 12:51 AM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Pan420 Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 72
Loc: New Mexico
nice. Well like i always say I'll believe it if I can prove it to scientificly. Untill that day yeah I'll take your word for it.
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Pan420

"Use your fist and not your mouth",
Marilyn Manson

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#7186 - 04/04/08 03:47 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
PansGirl_v2.3 Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 30
Loc: TX U.S.
Sorry, but I'm a little confused (I admit, I haven't been doing my homework). The kind of Satanism that involved rituals similar to the one TC mentioned, is that Laveyan or Luciferian, or what?

Edited by PansGirl_v2.3 (04/04/08 03:52 PM)
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#7200 - 04/04/08 07:14 PM Re: Atheism [Re: PansGirl_v2.3]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
The fact that I can't tell if you're joking PanGirl makes me sad....
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7203 - 04/04/08 07:26 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
Why should it make you sad TornadoCreator? Are you tying to shift focus from the fact that you more than likely made up the ritual and don't actully know? Did you actually DO this ritual? Or did you just type it out and threw on the ending for good measure?

Answer the girls question. You are very quick to throw the power and insight to be gained by ritual away, but what experience do you actually have with it?

Zeph
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Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#7208 - 04/04/08 08:13 PM Re: Atheism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Ok... Now I'm truly worried. PanGirl is kinda new here but you Zeph, you've been here a long time. If you honestly didn't notice that the "ritual" I described was so blatantly a sarcastic response hinting at the taking of the drug magic mushrooms in order for you to hallucinate and thus see an infernal god then I'm lost due to the pity I feel for this forum right now. If you where being equally sarcastic... perhaps we should stop sarcasm on the forum, it doesn't transition well.

Let's get this straight people. Magic isn't real! Dark gods and demons are not real! You cannot summon an infernal creature to do your bidding. This world is not 'dungeons and dragons'. Grow up. Stop deluding yourself. You're as bad as the damn theists now and you're polluting the word Satanism if you actually think the rituals used in Satanism are anything more than a fucking joke.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7211 - 04/04/08 08:43 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
rubaestellae Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/13/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Australia
It strikes me as rather odd that someone who confesses the possibility of aliens would say that the idea of something existing that doesn't share the same manifestation as our own bodies is completely fabrication. I don't pro port to know the ins and outs of the universe but I wouldn't be so bold to assume that there is an impossibility for things to exist in a different capacity as ourselves.
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