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#7214 - 04/04/08 09:44 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Simply....

The practice of magic is a personal perspective.

Science is magic defined.
Magic may be undefined science.

What others do, you might not do, but where others get results, you do not.

I get results.

How I get them, and how others get their results thats for another post...

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#7223 - 04/05/08 01:31 AM Re: Atheism [Re: PansGirl_v2.3]
peoplewatching Offline
lurker


Registered: 04/03/08
Posts: 2
Thats an interesting concept, I understand what you are saying in the realms of how you define the word itself. The problem with that is when you change a meaning in some way you have a distorted view of what the words like athiest or theiest were intended to mean. If this is the case and you dont have an adjective to describe yourself, just make one up and explain it as you are asked by individuals. By your definition I would consider you an Itheist by what you have said. But thats me. I think that is a fitting title for how you described yourself. Just a thought.
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#7226 - 04/05/08 02:45 AM Re: Atheism [Re: peoplewatching]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
Let's get this straight people. Magic isn't real!


Hmmmn, you the only person saying that. Magic as I define it does most certainly exist.

As for demons etc I personally haven't tried to raise one and I do doubt they exist, however, I'm not saying that I KNOW THEY DON'T EXIST and here's the ritual I did to prove it.

Yes I got that you were being sarcastic, what I did was call you on it.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#7227 - 04/05/08 02:47 AM Re: Atheism [Re: peoplewatching]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
My god people. You're actually trying to suggest to me that "things that go bump in the night" and summoning demons is real. Sure I can accept that I don't know everything, and I can't say that it's impossible however I can say with as much certainty that I say Faeries, God, The Easter Bunny, Unicorns and Santa doesn't exist that Daemons don't exist. There is not a shred of evidence for them existing. You're all going off bloody faith.

People who sit there in pentagrams, by alters, doing rituals to gain power from infernal creatures... those are simple people to pretentious for Christianity. Deluding yourself is not healthy, and anyone taking offence to this when they will condemn Christianity in another breath is the biggest hypocrite of the lot.

There is one thing I get out of any ritual. I get peace of mind, I use the idea to calm down, to express my emotions and relieve me of them so that they don't cloud my judgement or get in the way in day to day life. This, and making fun of religion, are it's ONLY purpose.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7241 - 04/05/08 10:59 AM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
You can dismiss my earlier posts as so much philosophical garbage, or perhaps just an attempt to be obtuse for the sake of argument, but really the point I was trying make about subjective reality lies at the heart of your misunderstanding here.

 Quote:
You're actually trying to suggest to me that "things that go bump in the night" and summoning demons is real.


Well, yes -- at least in as far as something can be said to be real if it has an effect. Even the craziest delusions are real to the people having them.

Father Christmas is most certainly real to the children taking part in this particular psychodrama -- and there are, of course, certain rituals used to evoke this festive spirit; letters to Santa, mince pies & brandy left out on Christmas Eve, and so on. You could brand this 'lying to children' if you wanted to, or 'fun', depending on your disposition.

In a similar fashion, the magickian summons forth certain entities in order to produce an effect; either upon himself, or upon the world around him (essentially, these amount to the same thing). These entities do not exist in any “objective” sense, but exist as a form of shorthand for certain acausal processes -- likewise with 'God', 'Satan' and so on.

Stag

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#7243 - 04/05/08 11:28 AM Re: Atheism [Re: Stag]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Stag
Well, yes -- at least in as far as something can be said to be real if it has an effect. Even the craziest delusions are real to the people having them.

This is where I became uninterested and convinced that I'm unlikely to get intelligent conversation on this topic because I knew it was going to become another philosophical argument on the subjective universe and how everything we see is only real because we perceive it well BULLSHIT!

List of things that are not real.

Santa
Tooth Fairy
Easter Bunny
Orcs & Goblins
Dragons
Unicorns
Any other mythical creature.
Ghosts
Spirits
Vampires
Werewolves
Daemons/Demons
Faeries
Angels
God
Heaven & Hell
Flying Carpets
Superheroes
Lizard People
Magic/Rituals/Spells/Magick (pretentious people who don't like spelling it the normal way do exist unfortunately)

Just because someone believes in any of the things above does not make it real. It make them stupid. Delusions do not become real just because someone happens to experience the damn delusion.

Honestly, Stag, I don't think you're stupid, however I think you're grasping at straws in an attempt to gain "pwn points" which seems to be the game everyone is playing here recently, albeit rather badly as they seem to just spout bollocks. You know none of this crap exists, so why come up with such a piss-poor reason to claim any of it does. Are you afraid of offending the occultists that love to claim they're "one with the night" that may pop in here from time to time. I'm really not.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7244 - 04/05/08 01:12 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
 Quote:
I knew it was going to become another philosophical argument on the subjective universe and how everything we see is only real because we perceive it well BULLSHIT!


It's easy to call bullshit on things you don't really understand. A little harder to back up your assertions with any kind of thought or reasoning.

Reality is a function of perception. Is this not what Niels Bohr was hinting at when he said "Nothing exists until it is measured."?

Perhaps you'd care to compliment your list of things which aren't real, with one of things which are... What is your criteria for "real-ness", and can it be demonstrated to have any meaning external to perception?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Stag

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#7246 - 04/05/08 02:31 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Stag]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Stag
It's easy to call bullshit on things you don't really understand.

Or many I understand it better than you and can thus see the infuriating self righteous attitude that philosophy has as a subject. For christ sake, it's the study of abstract nonsense. Some philosophical arguments are important and hold bearing on society but when it's taken beyond a certain level it becomes nonsensical. It's only when you take philosophy further still, actually examine it under scrutiny, you realise that most of it is simply spouting nonsense.

Now kindly don't insult my intelligence, you know nothing of me, what I know, what I've studied or what qualifications I have. You have no evidence to back that I don't understand your bullshit and I'm a little sick of people playing the "I'm smarter than you" ego stroking card whenever someone disagrees with them on this forum. Everyone really needs to grow up. No-one here is the master brain, far outstripping everyone else, so everyone needs to stop acting like it, and I know I'm guilty of doing it myself to some extent.

I have had enough of philosophy, I have debated it for 5 years, and as part of what was jokingly called a qualification for 2 of those years. When it comes down to it, if I look back, so long as I was vague, abstract and confusing, I could have wrote anything on the exam paper and got a passing grade. Philosophy when it comes down to brass tacs is the skill of spouting big words in a pretty pattern to make people think you're smart and to nullify everyone else's arguments with what amounts to endless reductio as absurdum.

I refuse to engage in such debates. If your resulting argument is so abstract that proving it either way has no baring on the world around us or effect anything that would interact with our lives in any meaningful way, it is not worth arguing.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7253 - 04/05/08 04:14 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
 Quote:
Some philosophical arguments are important and hold bearing on society but when it's taken beyond a certain level it becomes nonsensical.

Sorry TC, but it’s you that isn't making any sense here. Philosophy is important, except when its not, then it's all nonsense? Do you have some way of establishing when it's gone beyond this magical "certain level"? What does that even mean?

 Quote:
Now kindly don't insult my intelligence, you know nothing of me, what I know, what I've studied or what qualifications I have. You have no evidence to back that I don't understand your bullshit

I'm not here to have my ego pampered at your expense. Neither am I trolling for a rise. I'd just like you to address some of the points raised by your OP. As it is you've simply declared all "philosophy" to be "bollocks" and have refused to engage in any meaningful way. This, more than anything, demonstrates a certain lack of insight on the matter. You could at least start by saying why it is that you believe I've been talking out of my arse for this whole thread.

 Quote:
If your resulting argument is so abstract that proving it either way has no baring on the world around us or effect anything that would interact with our lives in any meaningful way, it is not worth arguing.

If someone were to experience demonic visions (delusions or otherwise) on a daily basis, do you not think this would be interacting with thier life in a "meaningful way"? Certainly somebody screaming "BULLSHIT!" in thier face is going to do little to dissuade them from the reality of thier experience.

No doubt you'll be thinking, "ahh, but couldn't this person merely be afflicted with schizophrenia?" -- which may be correct, but all you've really done is trade one set of metaphors for another. Neither is more "real" than the other.

Stag

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#7254 - 04/05/08 04:19 PM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I refuse to engage in such debates. If your resulting argument is so abstract that proving it either way has no baring on the world around us or effect anything that would interact with our lives in any meaningful way, it is not worth arguing."

You are so cute...

As stated before, magic, rites, et al are a personal perspective.
They are subjective to what the individual doing the act believes or wants the results to be.

They are meaningful to the persons and their lives in 2 simple ways...

Either it works, thus....
or
It doesn't, and you look into why.

Its okay, there are no brownie points, gold stars, or trophies awarded for practice. Actually most people seem to agree to disagree on this issue. Its not one that is wrapped up in satanic paper for everyone, its just a matter of personal preference.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#7270 - 04/05/08 08:17 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Morgan]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
This is where I became uninterested and convinced that I'm unlikely to get intelligent conversation on this topic because I knew it was going to become another philosophical argument on the subjective universe and how everything we see is only real because we perceive it well BULLSHIT!


 Quote:
Deluding yourself is not healthy, and anyone taking offence to this when they will condemn Christianity in another breath is the biggest hypocrite of the lot.


 Quote:
Now kindly don't insult my intelligence, you know nothing of me, what I know, what I've studied or what qualifications I have. You have no evidence to back that I don't understand your bullshit and I'm a little sick of people playing the "I'm smarter than you" ego stroking card whenever someone disagrees with them on this forum. Everyone really needs to grow up. No-one here is the master brain, far outstripping everyone else, so everyone needs to stop acting like it, and I know I'm guilty of doing it myself to some extent.


Yes dude you are very guilty of it. Henceforth why I said in that other thread that you left Hypocrite off the list. You are always being hypocritical when it comes to how you treat the intelligence of people on this forum. People that have been studying and using the occult for probably as many years as you have been alive. I still don't understand why you're a familiar. I always have found the familiars to be worthy of the title, even if I don't agree with their views, but you dude, you, I find unworthy of the title. You IMNSHO, are an arrogant boy not long out of puberty, that's thinks his small experiences in this world make him more able to judge what is right and wrong, what is real or not than others.

The evidence that he has of you not understanding, is the fact that you actually dismiss it out of hand as being wrong. IF YOU TRULY UNDERSTOOD what he was saying you wouldn't do that. It's THAT SIMPLE.
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#7281 - 04/06/08 01:41 AM Re: Atheism [Re: TornadoCreator]
WyntyrZyphyr Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 9
Loc: Kentucky
I am a Theist, and actively believe in God and Satan in his many incarnations as well as many of the demons that joined him in his rebellion. I don't believe them to be metaphysical entities sitting on some throne in some other realm, but more ethereal within our own. My view on God is that he is a jealous, wrathful bastard that doesn't like that we became like him to know the pleasures of sin and therefore seeks to use fear tactics to make people reject Lucifer's gift. Basically, I am all about freedom, indulgence, and self preservation and I venerate the almighty Lord Satan for being the driving force for me on this path. Regardless of Atheist or Theist, if you don't worship death and live life as a zombie, then you're using your free will and doing what Satan would want anyway. Hail Satan!
_________________________
Intoxicated by the madness, I'm in love with my sadness.

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#7282 - 04/06/08 01:57 AM Re: Atheism [Re: WyntyrZyphyr]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: WyntyrZyphyr
if you don't worship death and live life as a zombie, then you're using your free will and doing what Satan would want anyway. Hail Satan!


Is it just me, or do you not make any sense to yourself either?
What if a Buddhist used his free will to be a buddhist? Or a Muslim used his free will to practice Islam? Or a guy used his free will to be a Christian? Are all these people doing what "Satan" wants anyway? If so then why even be a Satanist. That's like over 4 billion people doing what Satan wants... and the results have been pretty shitty for the past 2000 years. Satan must really suck at what he's doing?
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#7297 - 04/06/08 06:37 AM Re: Atheism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
You IMNSHO, are an arrogant boy not long out of puberty, that's thinks his small experiences in this world make him more able to judge what is right and wrong, what is real or not than others.

You are nothing more than a hate speaker too insecure in the value of your own life to see value in anyone else's in case it supersedes your own. I pity you.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#7307 - 04/06/08 01:05 PM Re: Atheism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
WyntyrZyphyr Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 9
Loc: Kentucky
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC

Is it just me, or do you not make any sense to yourself either?
What if a Buddhist used his free will to be a buddhist? Or a Muslim used his free will to practice Islam? Or a guy used his free will to be a Christian? Are all these people doing what "Satan" wants anyway? If so then why even be a Satanist. That's like over 4 billion people doing what Satan wants... and the results have been pretty shitty for the past 2000 years. Satan must really suck at what he's doing?


From a theistic standpoint there is God, his will carried out through the Messiah and anything not of the law fulfilled by the Messiah is not of God, and therefore Satanic. That is the whole point of Theistic Satanism, if the Christians are right we are all going to hell anyways, so why not venerate Lord Satan and live as gods? See for you things are relative, while for me things are absolute. People who exercise free will are just contributing to the Satanic Age, yet they are not necessarily Satanist.
_________________________
Intoxicated by the madness, I'm in love with my sadness.

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