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#60107 - 10/17/11 10:17 AM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Come on, let's try to keep the religious crap out of Satanism.

As such, drinking or doing drugs is also a sin since it evidently also reduces the quality of your life. Even driving a car does.

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#60108 - 10/17/11 10:40 AM Re: Atheism [Re: Diavolo]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
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Satanism is a religion, so "religious crap" is inherent to it.

Perhaps you have a problem with the term "sin". Well, call it "vice" or "counterproductive behavior" if you will. As a matter of fact, there ARE things a wise satanist should not do, but not because of a given moral-system. The satanic initiation is a way of overcoming hindrances to your personal power. Therefore it IS a "sin" to risk your life without a very good reason.

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#60109 - 10/17/11 11:30 AM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
Well, i think we all agree that an atomic explosion is something that is not occuring under normal circumstances. Causing such an explosion is a "sin" in the satanic sense of an activity that reduces the quality of your own life.


This is only true if you eliminate human activity from what constitutes normal circumstances, ie drawing that same arbitrary line between man and nature that is the foundation of abrahamic thought.

Human activity is a result of nature, and is thus natural. Our manipulation of the atom is no different than a birds manipulation of twigs to build a nest or a viruses manipulation of animal cells. Any line drawn in the sand here will always be one of religion, and entirely arbitrary.


As for the bit about reducing the quality of life being a sin(ie against nature)..that's the most ridiculous non sequitur I've read all week. 'Quality of life' is an entirely subjective thing.
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#60111 - 10/17/11 12:03 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Dan_Dread]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:

Human activity is a result of nature, and is thus natural. Our manipulation of the atom is no different than a birds manipulation of twigs to build a nest or a viruses manipulation of animal cells. Any line drawn in the sand here will always be one of religion, and entirely arbitrary.


I agree wholeheartedly. Everything affects everything else in the universe; there is nothing inherently "unnatural" about this. Even if mankind could figure out some way to make the sun collapse within itself and consequently obliterate the entire solar system, such an act would be just as natural as a flower blooming. (Indeed, there are seemingly infinite stars and systems outside of our own; the universe as whole would hardly skip a beat were our tiny corner of the cosmos done away with.)

Essential to Satanism, I think, is to admit and embrace the baleful aspects of nature, especially those aberrant phenomena that seem horrifying or even "evil" to the average person. Satan, is, after all, a god of chaos and destruction-- an honest evaluation of such reveals that in the grand scope of things, nothing is sacred, and everything is destined to the merciless fate of entropy and dissolution.



Edited by The Zebu (10/17/11 12:05 PM)
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#60112 - 10/17/11 12:24 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
Well, i think we all agree that an atomic explosion is something that is not occuring under normal circumstances. Causing such an explosion is a "sin" in the satanic sense of an activity that reduces the quality of your own life.


This is only true if you eliminate human activity from what constitutes normal circumstances, ie drawing that same arbitrary line between man and nature that is the foundation of abrahamic thought.


In fact i do that, but i don`t think the differntiation between "natural" and "unnatural" activities is "abrahamitic" per se. The phenomena of mental conditions cannot be explained in the same way natural laws explain what happens in the material world.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Human activity is a result of nature, and is thus natural. Our manipulation of the atom is no different than a birds manipulation of twigs to build a nest or a viruses manipulation of animal cells. Any line drawn in the sand here will always be one of religion, and entirely arbitrary.


I disagree. Human will and psyche is something that is not bound to physical laws. Intentional conditions like goals, wishes or opinions are mental, not physical. This is not only a topic of religion, but of the philosophy of mind as well.

In the case of Satanism / Setianism, the idea of seeing the human psyche as something sacred, is a religios idea, though.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
As for the bit about reducing the quality of life being a sin(ie against nature)..that's the most ridiculous non sequitur I've read all week. 'Quality of life' is an entirely subjective thing.


Of course it is subjective in detail, but show me at least one person who would prefer living in a post-fallout world. There are some basic needs all human beings share, Satanist or not.


Edited by Iskander (10/17/11 12:25 PM)

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#60113 - 10/17/11 12:32 PM Re: Atheism [Re: dust-e sheytoon]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
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Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: dust-e sheytoon
... nuclear fission can occur naturally ...

It occurs naturally all the time, as for example the Sun. My comment was meant in the sense that by inducing it in a plae and on a scale where it does not normally occur, as in atomic bombs within the Earth biosphere, we disrupt the OU's normal functioning to an increasingly dangerous degree. Carving a tree into a table has a bit less of a ripple effect, unless you eliminate entire forests for tables, of course.

 Quote:
Dr. Aquino, you have government experience and you know so much about electricity. Do you have any advice for those of us trying to steer away from nuclear and carbon based energy?

Not really my field of expertise. As a professional PSYOP officer I am an expert on bullshit, of course, and I notice that there is always a plentiful [and constantly rising] supply of that; all we need to do is figure out how to process it for fuel.
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#60114 - 10/17/11 12:45 PM Re: Atheism [Re: The Zebu]
Iskander Offline
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 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I agree wholeheartedly. Everything affects everything else in the universe; there is nothing inherently "unnatural" about this. Even if mankind could figure out some way to make the sun collapse within itself and consequently obliterate the entire solar system, such an act would be just as natural as a flower blooming. (Indeed, there are seemingly infinite stars and systems outside of our own; the universe as whole would hardly skip a beat were our tiny corner of the cosmos done away with.)


Strictly speaking the whole idea of causality is manmade. But if we take for granted that there are happenings in nature that occur without human influence (which is a useful hypothesis), there is a difference between a rock moved by gravity and a rock moved by a human being. As soon as a sentient, self-reflecting being causes something in the world, we have left the principle of "dead" matter.

Now a material world changed by humans is "natural" in so far as the material changes in this world do not affect the causality of physical laws. But the CAUSE of these changes is unnatural, for they are the result of a mental status. This is the basic concept of magic: Bringing something into physical being that has been pure mental before you startet the action. An action, that propably never would have occured without you.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Essential to Satanism, I think, is to admit and embrace the baleful aspects of nature, especially those aberrant phenomena that seem horrifying or even "evil" to the average person. Satan, is, after all, a god of chaos and destruction-- an honest evaluation of such reveals that in the grand scope of things, nothing is sacred, and everything is destined to the merciless fate of entropy and dissolution.


Being "natural" is no attractive goal to me. I prefer creating things and situations that didn`t exist before.

Satan is the advesary of the status quo, yes. But the destruction and chaos he represents is just the prior condition to establish a new order on your own.



Edited by Iskander (10/17/11 01:04 PM)

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#60115 - 10/17/11 01:08 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
I disagree. Human will and psyche is something that is not bound to physical laws. Intentional conditions like goals, wishes or opinions are mental, not physical.


Unless you are arguing that mind is not an effect of brain (which requires making religious assumptions necessarily based in faith alone) this statement is nonsense. Again, you are drawing an arbitrary line with no supporting theory. You might as well say magnetism is not bound to physical laws because the field itself(which is of course non physical)and that which generates it can be separately identified.
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#60116 - 10/17/11 01:09 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
I disagree. Human will and psyche is something that is not bound to physical laws. Intentional conditions like goals, wishes or opinions are mental, not physical. This is not only a topic of religion, but of the philosophy of mind as well.

In the case of Satanism / Setianism, the idea of seeing the human psyche as something sacred, is a religios idea, though.


That's crap. Human will and psyche are of course bound by natural laws since humans are bound by them. There's nothing your will or mind can do that violates any physical law.

The human psyche is not sacred at all unless you fancy that kind of bullshit. This far there isn't even a shred of evidence the human psyche, or our precious free will, is not a product of our brain. In fact, the only evidence there is regarding free will is in opposition with it.

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#60117 - 10/17/11 01:13 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
This is true. The idea of 'free will' is entirely abrahamic/nazarene, and is indeed the foundation of that doctrine. There is no actual science supporting that doctrine.

But then again, we already know how setians feel about 'science', which is almost identical to how young earth creationists do.
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#60118 - 10/17/11 01:27 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Diavolo]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
I disagree. Human will and psyche is something that is not bound to physical laws. Intentional conditions like goals, wishes or opinions are mental, not physical. This is not only a topic of religion, but of the philosophy of mind as well.

In the case of Satanism / Setianism, the idea of seeing the human psyche as something sacred, is a religios idea, though.


That's crap. Human will and psyche are of course bound by natural laws since humans are bound by them. There's nothing your will or mind can do that violates any physical law.


The will / mind doesn`t violate the physical law, it acts INDEPENDEND of it. There is no proof that the mind is organized in the same way the physical patterns are structured.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The human psyche is not sacred at all unless you fancy that kind of bullshit. This far there isn't even a shred of evidence the human psyche, or our precious free will, is not a product of our brain. In fact, the only evidence there is regarding free will is in opposition with it.


"Product" is the wrong term. There is some evidence that neuronal patterns in the brain correlate with mental conditions. That is, however, not an argument against free will.

The human psyche is sacred when you declare it sacred, yes. So where is the problem?


Edited by Iskander (10/17/11 01:36 PM)

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#60119 - 10/17/11 01:35 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:
I disagree. Human will and psyche is something that is not bound to physical laws. Intentional conditions like goals, wishes or opinions are mental, not physical.


Unless you are arguing that mind is not an effect of brain (which requires making religious assumptions necessarily based in faith alone) this statement is nonsense. Again, you are drawing an arbitrary line with no supporting theory. You might as well say magnetism is not bound to physical laws because the field itself(which is of course non physical)and that which generates it can be separately identified.


The brain is not the mind, it is an organ. Of course there is a relation between the brain, other organs and the mind. But there is no philosophical theory that explains how the mind came into being, nor how it works, and natural science does not explain it either.

This problem is in no way religios per se. See Donald Davidson`s concept of anomalous monism, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalous_monism


Edited by Iskander (10/17/11 01:36 PM)

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#60120 - 10/17/11 01:41 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Iskander Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
This is true. The idea of 'free will' is entirely abrahamic/nazarene, and is indeed the foundation of that doctrine. There is no actual science supporting that doctrine.


Oh, there is one. It is called philosophy.

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#60121 - 10/17/11 01:43 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
You are committing the logical fallacy of Appeal to ignorance

Do you know what that is?
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#60122 - 10/17/11 01:46 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
This is true. The idea of 'free will' is entirely abrahamic/nazarene, and is indeed the foundation of that doctrine. There is no actual science supporting that doctrine.


Oh, there is one. It is called philosophy.


Science and philosophy are categorically different things. And there isn't even any good philosophy that supports the idea of freewill. Zero for two old bean.
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