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#60123 - 10/17/11 01:53 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
The brain is not the mind, it is an organ. Of course there is a relation between the brain, other organs and the mind. But there is no philosophical theory that explains how the mind came into being, nor how it works, and natural science does not explain it either.


There is no exhaustive explanation of the prime cause of many common phenomena, such as gravity. Does it really merit such special importance that it must be essentially different from other physical occurrences?


Edited by The Zebu (10/17/11 01:54 PM)
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#60124 - 10/17/11 02:02 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
You are committing the logical fallacy of Appeal to ignorance

Do you know what that is?


Look, if you take, for example, the position of a naturalist, you are confronted with a certain problem when it comes to the explanaition of the mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanatory_gap

Do your own research, and you will find out that my argumentation is valid.

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#60125 - 10/17/11 02:14 PM Re: Atheism [Re: The Zebu]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
 Quote:
The brain is not the mind, it is an organ. Of course there is a relation between the brain, other organs and the mind. But there is no philosophical theory that explains how the mind came into being, nor how it works, and natural science does not explain it either.


There is no exhaustive explanation of the prime cause of many common phenomena, such as gravity. Does it really merit such special importance that it must be essentially different from other physical occurrences?


Yes, because hard materialistic positions are reducible. To the materialistic paradigms, the mind is an anomaly. So there are two options: 1. Desclaiming to explain the mind in a materialistic way. 2. Developing a new theory that closes the explanatory gap. The latter option did not work out yet.

It`s a matter of what you demand to explain, and which paradigm is chosen for that.


Edited by Iskander (10/17/11 02:15 PM)

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#60126 - 10/17/11 02:15 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3894
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
None of this is new to me I'm afraid, and you are still arguing from ignorance. Always a favourite of the theist of all stripes.
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#60127 - 10/17/11 02:16 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
While staying on topic via Dr. Aquino's statement that, "it is possible to "worship" G/n is to help the collective natural [from neter, incidentally] laws function as smoothly, harmoniously, and positively as possible within your sphere of influence," I would also like to respond to:
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
...As a professional PSYOP officer I am an expert on bullshit, of course, and I notice that there is always a plentiful [and constantly rising] supply of that; all we need to do is figure out how to process it for fuel.


The Psy Op/bs metaphor is useful literally and could also be useful strategically. Perhaps we can isolate specifically powerful components or methods of the pro-nuclear energy lobby propaganda and either co-opt or recycle them with our own spin in a sort of Wing Chun/Jeet Kune Do way that turns their bs back on them. After all, the nuclear lobby has tried to co-opt the "clean energy" label of green renewables. So they're already doing this to us. The ball is in our court.

Regarding successful persuasion, I guess the trick is to not only appeal to reason, but also to appeal to the "base animal instincts of the masses" (mentioned in the Century of the Self documentary). It's got to work on both levels, and/or be tailored to various demographics to unite them behind the cause of shutting down old plants.

Hmmm...maybe we could anthropomorphize the nuclear plants, and have them asking to be shut down.

The caveat is that the Stuxnet virus could really complicate shutting them down. Waiting until there is an emergency to shut down Stuxnet-infected nuclear plants without creating an antidote or backup, however, is gambling on creating another Fukushima. Seems better to plan the shutdowns, add safety back up, close monitoring and means of compensating for Stuxnet or overriding Stuxnet's false reports of okay shutdown.

Regarding actual biological waste, poop-generated methane gas is a viable energy source for large scale projects, and some people are trying to create "digesters" for single-family energy use.

Human Feces Powers Rwandan Prison
http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/news/2005/07/68127

Hog farm poop generates electricity in Cali:
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/renewables/biomass/digester_landfill.html

People brainstorming about small digesters for single family use:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/9456-5kw-home-power-methane-system-help-needed.html

Geothermal is another option:
http://www.harryreid.com/index.php/news/article/geothermal_plants_approved_near_fallon/
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#60128 - 10/17/11 02:25 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
None of this is new to me I'm afraid, and you are still arguing from ignorance. Always a favourite of the theist of all stripes.


That is interesting, i didn`t know i was a theist. So would you please be so kind and tell me

1. which specific theory explains the mind in a materialistic way and

2. how a separation between mental and material phenomenas is essential theistic?

Thank you.


Edited by Iskander (10/17/11 02:26 PM)

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#60129 - 10/17/11 02:31 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
Look, if you take, for example, the position of a naturalist, you are confronted with a certain problem when it comes to the explanaition of the mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanatory_gap

Do your own research, and you will find out that my argumentation is valid.


Didn't we encounter this sort of reasoning in creationism? Aha a GAP thus GOD.

Too funny if it wasn't so sad.

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#60130 - 10/17/11 02:33 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Diavolo]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
Look, if you take, for example, the position of a naturalist, you are confronted with a certain problem when it comes to the explanaition of the mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanatory_gap

Do your own research, and you will find out that my argumentation is valid.


Didn't we encounter this sort of reasoning in creationism? Aha a GAP thus GOD.

Too funny if it wasn't so sad.



Again, this has nothing to do with religion per se. I reject creationism as well.


Edited by Iskander (10/17/11 02:35 PM)

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#60131 - 10/17/11 02:38 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
That doesn't matter; it's the mystical thinking that's the problem in religion and in this sort of nonsense.

We can't fully explain consciousness thus: something really special. We can't fully explain gravity either but none suggests it's god's aura pulling at everything.

There's enough evidence, and really enough, to show that any affection of the brain does affect the mind. They are able to predict your choice seconds before you consciously make it simply by having a scanner observe what happens in the brain.

I know, it is much nicer to think we are special and that we are completely free-willed but this far sadly nothing really points into that direction.

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#60132 - 10/17/11 02:41 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3894
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
None of this is new to me I'm afraid, and you are still arguing from ignorance. Always a favourite of the theist of all stripes.


That is interesting, i didn`t know i was a theist. So would you please be so kind and tell me

1. which specific theory explains the mind in a materialistic way and

2. how a separation between mental and material phenomenas is essential theistic?

Thank you.


1: again, arguing from ignorance. I can just as easily say that we don't know, absolutely, what causes gravity, therefor it must be a magical force unto itself. You see the gap there? Why one doesn't follow the other? This is the god of the gaps argument, plain and simple.

2: I didn't say you were a theist, only that you share a similarly shaky philosophical position as they. You are drawing an arbitrary line that has no rational foundation.
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#60134 - 10/17/11 02:58 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Diavolo]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
That doesn't matter; it's the mystical thinking that's the problem in religion and in this sort of nonsense.


No. I don`t even touch metaphysics here, it is just common, normal philosophy of the mind. Nothing more and nothing less.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
We can't fully explain consciousness thus: something really special. We can't fully explain gravity either but none suggests it's god's aura pulling at everything.


The difference is this: Gravity is a factor used in physics. The mind is not. I am not speculating on an external god here.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
There's enough evidence, and really enough, to show that any affection of the brain does affect the mind. They are able to predict your choice seconds before you consciously make it simply by having a scanner observe what happens in the brain.


The Libet-experiments are not up to date. As said above: I have no problem admitting that the brain and the mind are related. I only state that they are not IDENTICAL. This is not mystic, it is just a matter of intellectual honesty.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I know, it is much nicer to think we are special and that we are completely free-willed but this far sadly nothing really points into that direction.


Quite the opposite: The whole phenomena is far more complex.

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#60136 - 10/17/11 03:13 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Dan_Dread]
Iskander Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
1: again, arguing from ignorance. I can just as easily say that we don't know, absolutely, what causes gravity, therefor it must be a magical force unto itself. You see the gap there? Why one doesn't follow the other? This is the god of the gaps argument, plain and simple.


I never said unexplained phenomenas are essential magic. I said magic is based on the unexplained phenomena we call mind. That is a big difference: I didn`t use magic as an explanation, i tried to explain magic.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
2: I didn't say you were a theist, only that you share a similarly shaky philosophical position as they. You are drawing an arbitrary line that has no rational foundation.


The rational fundation of drawing this line is given in the oservance that natural science has a limited potential of explanation. Which is totally common, for all scientific paradigms have a limited area of expertise.

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#60137 - 10/17/11 03:17 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
That's irrelevant. You are speculating on an "external" mind.

The mind is an phenomenon of the brain. Damage the brain and you damage the mind. If the mind was independent, it would not be affected by anything happening to the brain. We know damage to the brain affects the mind because there are loads of people evidencing this.

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#60138 - 10/17/11 03:22 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3894
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
The rational fundation of drawing this line is given in the oservance that natural science has a limited potential of explanation. Which is totally common, for all scientific paradigms have a limited area of expertise.


Exactly, again, argument from ignorance. We don't know what causes X, which means we can't prove that Y didn't cause X, therefor Y caused X

This is just piss poor logic.
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#60139 - 10/17/11 03:45 PM Re: Atheism [Re: Iskander]
Gattamelata Offline
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Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 45

The problem with such dualisms, Iskander, is that you try to erect a philosophical construct that attempts to escape the clutching fingers of materialism, even though the actual function of this construct seems to depend entirely on the neurological circuits it claims to be somehow seperate from.

Now, of course such philosophical and/or linguistic constructs are not identical to the physical processes they depend on. No one claims that. The spoken word "delusion" is not identical to the larynx. But audible speech is dependant upon some sort of vocal organ.
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