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#67313 - 06/15/12 10:57 AM Dethroning Satan?
Diavolo Offline
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Dethroning Satan?

The chief duty of every new age is to upraise new men to determine its liberties, to lead it towards material success - to rend the rusty padlocks and chains of dead custom that always prevent healthy expansion. Theories and ideas that may have meant life and hope and freedom for our ancestors may now mean destruction, slavery, and dishonor to us!

This is a debate that has been going on for more than ten years; people have been giving their pros and cons and then time buried it until the next time it surfaced. This time we're going to do it in public and everyone is free to step in and say their thing but, and I want to be clear about this; this is a serious debate and as such, I expect serious responses or none.

Satanism as a whole has been in decline for more than a decade; there are less people interested and of those, few are the right stuff. As a subject in search engines, as an example, it dropped to 30% of what it was a decade ago. There might be several reasons for this. In a world where religion is losing importance, its opponent will suffer an identical fate. In a world where apathy is on the rise, evidently, there will be less willing, or awake enough, to rise above their current situation. And in a world of suicide bombers, terrorists, conspiracy thinking... etc, Satan suddenly ain't that scary no more. Regardless of what we think is the main reason, it is undeniable Satanism as a whole is declining. Facts tell us we're trying to reach the finish line riding a dying horse and the finish line ain't nowhere in sight.

We could say it doesn't matter since we don't need any other satanist to be a satanist and this is evidently true. What makes us a satanist is not what we call ourselves, or depending upon how many others call themselves the same, but on what we, in reality, do. And yet, here we all are, which shows that we do seem to have some need to interact with like-minded. This was as much the case in the past as it is now and won't be any different in the future.

So when having future interaction in mind, there are two possible scenarios.

One; we can keep riding this dying horse somehow hoping that within ten years there will be enough of us left to have some decent level of interaction. The downside is that we already experience the symptoms of a subculture in decline and to enhance the probabilities we would be forced to play a numbers game where it is all about quantity; as much people as possible in the hope there will be enough to enable us to survive. But this is somehow contradictory to what Satanism stands for; quality instead of quantity.

Two; we have to examine satan as a cultural wrapping for our underlying essence and wonder if that which worked so well fifty years ago might not have lost its potency today. Maybe Satan just doesn't do it no more as a symbol, he no longer represents the needs of this culture and the only way he can go is that of the dodo. Maybe today Satan is that old custom which only brings disadvantages and halts our growth and evolution forward.

Are we purely clinging to it for nostalgic reasons and if, are we willing to have this nostalgia drag us down the pits of oblivion or is it time to cut where it hurts but in that, make the blood flow again?

Opinions?

D.

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#67314 - 06/15/12 11:27 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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That it is in a decline, fact. From my point of view there will still be a certain adversity yet not as potential as it was a few decades ago. A sort of stagnant base, both from nostalgia as a certain basic fear in the minds wherein it took an representative of all that is evil.

The two scenarios you proposed, in my opinion, are actually one. Experiencing disadvantages with the archetype which is getting outdated and a raising importance of a quantity instead of quality.
A reevaluation of the archetype would seem needed but isn't really cutting the meat. Replacing it, or associating, with another is just post-phoning the inevitable. Cutting where it hurts is a very nice and sane option.. but where to cut? What would it be that describes the thing that is now called Satanism?

The Archetype of Satan on the other hand was never really a problem. Satanism can cope without the archetype from which its name was derived. Only the core it represents was of importance. Satanism can cope without "Satan" but not without the actions and words stemming from its core. Rip out the adversity the "genuine" Satanist invokes and what is left is a hollow shell thriving on nostalgia and an old name losing glory.

I do believe it is time to invoke a second Satanic-panic. And instead of cowering down and explaining truths and falsities to just raise a middle-finger and let it sort out itself.
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#67316 - 06/15/12 01:14 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Dimitri]
Fnord Offline
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I am going to have more to say on this once I compose my thoughts (great thread, D) but my first instinct was to try to pull a statistic on how much of the world's population did identify with christianity. I found a page on wiki with some stats that does itself admit that the data is only loosely representative based on a variety of factors.. BUT.. it still didn't say what I expected it to say.

christianity by country

Off the top of my head I'd say that, in general, Satanists who are experienced recognize that pitting oneself against any of the big 3 is ultimately fruitless as it's a matter of great simplicity to see where the battle lines are drawn and to overcome them.

The question becomes, what's next in terms of finding meaning and in terms of exercising this inherent state of 'different' that is within us.

I'm not so sure I agree that the red guy is outdated, but, like I said, I'll pause to reflect and rejoin later.

Edit:

By the by, on the map those areas that are represented as being less than 20% or so are also associated, to some degree, with one of the other Abrahamic religions.
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#67317 - 06/15/12 01:21 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
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Great question.

I don't believe "Satanism" as a comprehensive worldview was ever defined, hence the fad factor and consequent dip. Anton LaVey dressed up a late-60's angst/spiritual zeitgeist and came up with modern Satanism. But a period piece can no more make for a genuine worldview than a pop song.

Unlike Anton LaVey (and many others) I do not believe a Satanism can be defined negatively. Satan, as a character, is borrowed from the Judeo-Christian paradigm, and so must, until re-defined substantially, remain subservient to such. It's hard, especially in this day and age, to reclaim or empower Atheism. Or humanism. Or Epicureanism.

Read The Satanic Bible. What is the overarching theme? It's a reactionary text, start to finish. Never is either "Satan" or "Satanism" defined in a purely positive sense, rather everything is offered as a contrast. And the bits of positive philosophy we are treated to are ontologically empty. Almost as if Nietzsche (or even Rand) lost his (alt. her) poetic voice.

And not only that, myth is lost. And with myth, meaning (Aquino got at least that much). So, whence do we derive a Satanism worthy of the name? Or worthy of any degree of acquiescence? To roughly quote Lex Luthor in Superman 2, we need to "turn a new leaf, no, a new forest."

If the only vector for <Satan> is <the opposite of gods/religion>, then your Satanism will ultimately fail. Even if you add <its all about me and more ME>, you will still fail, at least to define an adequate Satanism. No, until you recognize that your Satanism must encompass and explain the world as it is, you will always be clutching at straws.

So, instead of The Satanic Bible, I tend to recommend The Lucifer Principle. And I see a new breed of Satanists coming. Ones who may not even need the label I have chosen for myself. After all, I don't go running around proclaiming myself to be a human being, it just is.

JK
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#67322 - 06/15/12 10:34 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Jason King]
Fist Moderator Offline
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I am not sure if anyone else watches the news or reads the paper, but I would argue that Satanism is less overtly obvious because the world is simply becoming more Satanic.

Who needs a Satanic boogeyman or Satanic Rebellion when the world around you is so uncertain and chaotic? People have largely lost their faith in govt, churches, banks and other such institutions that have historically be constructed of stone. How could adding Satanic memes to this make this situation any more chaotic?

The world is on fire and if you care to open your eyes to it, you will see a world that is at war. Europe is ready fragment once again and within nations Right Nationalist are competing with Leftist Reds while centrist parties can't get a word in edgewise.

White Lighters are fond of saying 'God is all around us'. Today, I would argue that we are enveloped in Satan's influence. We need not a Satanic revival when Satanism is the fact of the matter.

We are, as they say in the ONA, at the beginning of the New Aeon.
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#67325 - 06/15/12 11:14 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Fist]
Diavolo Offline
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It is true indeed, as King and Fist mention, that the world is fundamentally satanic and as such, we are the personification of this reality and what King points at is also true, that Satanism has always defined itself in contrast, as if we are revolutionaries while, when speaking in these terms, we are actually contra-revolutionaries. We represent reality as it is.

But the real issue here is not the world out there but our survivability as a (online) community and if or if not, we should seriously consider a drastic change in our subcultural framework. Fist's remarks about a world undergoing changes is related to the future issues we are facing. In a society becoming more satanic, there is less need for a Satan to identify with.

And this is not about a community itself but about representing something valid and worthwhile and catering to a certain need you hardly encounter outside of our environment. We have an environment with a certain freedom which enables us to debate any subject or perspective without encountering moral or ethical limitations and to have such survive, one has to adapt towards cultural changes without abandoning the essence. The perfect example of what resisting change results into is the CoS. It is dead. We will suffer the same fate; not because the essence is outdated but because of the form. Satan no longer represents what we are about.

We are a forward and upward moving species; we have this drive to overcome, to grow, and go beyond but we're stuck inside an old memeplex which is only a disadvantage these days. We might like it but nostalgia doesn't really make you better, smarter or stronger. Nostalgia only makes you look back.

The way I see it is that we need to kick-start our culture but within a context that isn't outdated. And to survive and grow, we need new blood and thus new interest. So you need to grab people's attention and find a way to lead them here. Which implies something new is needed; a new memeplex, subcultural context or label if you like. That is as unavoidable as requiring a name and image whenever you try to sell a product to consumers.

But, as I mentioned, this requires cutting where it might hurt. Still, at the same time it enables us to get rid of other issues that are troubling.

D.

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#67327 - 06/16/12 12:08 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I don't see this as important. The state of the subculture is really only important if you define yourself by contrast to it. Personally, Satanism is meaningful to me, and that is enough. I couldn't give a sheeps testicle about the 'subculture' or what anyone else is doing with 'Satanism'.
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#67328 - 06/16/12 12:57 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Not only is that a bit weak as an argument, it is somehow contradictory to what you do Dan.

We manifest ourselves in conflict; it is exactly this that drives us to be at our best; that which forces us to go beyond ourselves. But conflict requires opponents which, evidently, implies it is in our best interest to have strong opponents. And this is all that our subculture is; a group of individuals that for selfish reasons interact, more often than not through conflict, and because of that there is this emergence which benefits all fit for such an environment. We don't care about belonging to as much as we care about participating in.

So yes, I do give a sheep's testicle and if you'd be honest, so do you. If not, why would there even be the auto-diabolic method you share? That's giving a sheep's testicle.

D.

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#67330 - 06/16/12 03:46 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Well, you say my argument is weak but I can (and am) saying the same thing to you. Are you really saying not only that talking on the internet is any more than a cheap source of entertainment, and further that this particular subculture is somehow a source of a better sort of productive conflict? I wholly disagree on both points.

First, I can honestly say that I have been defined not by what I type or read here, but what I do out there. None of 'this' matters on any meaningful level. Second, productive conflict rests in how you approach the world in general, not what particular adjective someone might use to describe themselves to others. In that, I don't really get why you think what I do or write is somehow married to the health of a subculture I really don't give a shit about. I'd still be doing and writing the same shit if the rest of you died tomorrow..I just don't care about this collective or its relative health.

You talk about Satanism as if it's some external thing we need to feed to keep alive, and it just isn't. It lives as long as one person still does it, and even that isn't that important.
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#67331 - 06/16/12 04:46 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Not at all. I'm saying that the sort of interaction we have (or should have) is essential to our intellectual growth and evolution. What we are is indeed defined by what we did, do and will do out there but that shit doesn't translate to the internet.

Here it is a purely intellectual environment and only those skills matter. That someone is a whatever offline isn't going to help them out if they don't have the intellectual qualities or drive to survive in our habitat. Here the intellectual conflict drives us beyond ourselves (intellectually).

What you write publicly is because of a public and either you do it to reach like-minded out there or because you desire others opinions or criticism. If you didn't care at all if anyone would read it, you'd not post it. Simple as that.

I'm not talking about keeping Satanism alive since it is just a word. I'm talking about keeping an environment alive in which a certain essence can flourish and that is a completely different matter because you, I and every other like us will benefit from such.

Even at a transgressive level, this is an interesting issue. Is one able to remove that which one is used to, their memetic comfort zone if you like, the very thing in which they have established their position and worth and still do their thing in something new or unknown.

Satanism is our old leather jacket. It's comfy.

D.

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#67332 - 06/16/12 05:58 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Not at all. I'm saying that the sort of interaction we have (or should have) is essential to our intellectual growth and evolution.

Well, to be fair..if you want to sharpen your sword on any subject outside of Satanism itself, this sort of venue is a poor choice.

The internet is literally filled with conflict and adversity of the sort offered here, even if from wildly different grounding points.


 Quote:

What you write publicly is because of a public and either you do it to reach like-minded out there or because you desire others opinions or criticism. If you didn't care at all if anyone would read it, you'd not post it. Simple as that.

Well, sure..but I don't need a bunch of other people calling themselves 'satanist' gathering at a website or two for that.

 Quote:

I'm not talking about keeping Satanism alive since it is just a word. I'm talking about keeping an environment alive in which a certain essence can flourish and that is a completely different matter because you, I and every other like us will benefit from such.

I find adversity is something you need to create for yourself, especially here. I can get it out of pretty much anyone, and milk it for what I can. I dont necessarily agree people calling themselves 'satanist' give more milk either, as it were. In fact, as a whole..I have seldom come across a more intellectually lazy and emotionally fragile bunch than most of what we get.

 Quote:

Even at a transgressive level, this is an interesting issue. Is one able to remove that which one is used to, their memetic comfort zone if you like, the very thing in which they have established their position and worth and still do their thing in something new or unknown.

Well, I guess we could start calling it interrogism :P

 Quote:

Satanism is our old leather jacket. It's comfy.

D.


Naw, it's just an apt word with some descriptive power. Ultimately the word doesn't really matter that much.
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#67335 - 06/16/12 11:48 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

Well, I guess we could start calling it interrogism :P


Well, maybe it is time for something like that. It's all nice and well for us to play the cool cat in Satanism but let's be honest; anyone of us that has a couple of neurons functioning, or anything to lose, won't ever mention Satanism in a critical situation; e.g. job interviews. Why is that? Because we pretty well know that either they're going to look at us as if we're gonna finger-fuck their eight year old or they'll consider us complete idiots. I live in a society where option two is 95% guaranteed.

That's the reality of this outdated memeplex; we ourselves are too embarrassed or too smart to share this with others because we know that even among ourselves most aren't getting it. How then could we expect different from those outside of it? I admit that, when someone introduces himself as a satanist, even I first think idiot and then hardly expect to be proven wrong.

I'm quite sure Lavey was smart enough to realize that if he'd have started his thing today, Satanism wouldn't be the memeplex to use. It's simply no longer valid. But yes, online it's cool but so is being a Nazi-Jihadist.

Still, I never was online to be cool.

D.

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#67337 - 06/16/12 01:13 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I admit that, when someone introduces himself as a satanist, even I first think idiot and then hardly expect to be proven wrong.


Indeed. But why is that? Perhaps experience, lol. But why is that?

Again, I would maintain that "Satanism" as heretofore defined has led to either A: eccentric misanthropic Atheism, or B: reverse christian neuro-psychosis.

Sure, there have been a select few who "get it," top to bottom and through and through, but these are diamonds in the proverbial rough, as DD pretty much spelled out.

**********

The root-problem, I would hold, is not in the label itself - for this is sheer facticity. Rather, it has been in the presentation of the label. How do we transform the meme (if we desire this at all??), and to whom are we preaching/speaking? Is this a thing with enough real merit to save, or is it, as Diavolo's Advocate hints, a thing with more baggage than promise, no matter the aptness?

I'll go ahead out on the limb and say that YES, Satanism is worth "clinging to". The label is apt on two independent levels: the ontological (i.e. the world is in essence, adversarial) and the reactionary (i.e. my god is the nemesis of your "God"). Until language is able to present a single term with as much evocative power, we'd be fools not to embrace it.

And yet the singular quoted statement from Diavolo above summarizes quite nicely the nature of the problem-situation moving forward. For too long we've been hiding in our corners (whether literal or proverbial), content to allow others to do the heavy lifting while we were building our "total environments". And in the meantime, we've outsourced our real Satanism to evolutionary biologists, cultural critics, futurists, and outspoken atheists. Not to mention Eastern philosophers :).

JK
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#67338 - 06/16/12 01:37 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

I admit that, when someone introduces himself as a satanist, even I first think idiot and then hardly expect to be proven wrong.

Well, a lot of hours spent doing 'this' will slant your perception. Id say most don't do this, and probably assume Satanists worship the devil and get up to some fucked up shit. This sits well with me \:\)

 Quote:

Well, maybe it is time for something like that. It's all nice and well for us to play the cool cat in Satanism but let's be honest; anyone of us that has a couple of neurons functioning, or anything to lose, won't ever mention Satanism in a critical situation; e.g. job interviews. Why is that? Because we pretty well know that either they're going to look at us as if we're gonna finger-fuck their eight year old or they'll consider us complete idiots. I live in a society where option two is 95% guaranteed.

I don't see the problem.

I would say that the day the term gets a favorable reaction from the normos would be the best day to put the term to bed.

Who needs housenigger status anyway?
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#67339 - 06/16/12 02:55 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
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I agree King that the root problem is the presentation of the label and even more, the presentation of the very content. A great part of me is a Nietzschean and when I think of his approach, consider his translation of similar ideas into words, I can't but look at Satanism and see a philosophy written with crayons. It is so simplistic it inevitably attracts a majority of simpletons which in itself is irony at its best.

You see Satanism as a label worth clinging to and make a valid point but from my perspective, it's no longer a sufficient one. We're not the reactionary ones, we're actually the normals; which is what the adversarial are in an adversarial world. And while Satanism made perfect sense during the sixties, these days it is not religion that keeps us down. The new gods out there are apathy, averageness and mediocrity and these new gods are more powerful, and subtle, than the old ones.

We have a problem which is obvious to anyone willing to look critically at our subculture and the real question is if solving this problem is even remotely possible considering it firmly roots us into a juvenile setting? Regardless of all the posture and pretense in Satanism, our self-promotion as anti-this and anti-that, if I'm honest I have to admit, it is one of the most infertile and stagnant environments I ever encountered. You're quite correct when you say that Satanism outsourced its Satanism to others. It probably gives us more time looking at ourselves in the mirror while flexing our muscles.

So I'd say NO to Satanism being worth clinging to. Is that houseniggery? Not at all; it's about being smart and having self-respect.

I know it ain't effective giving a lecture on morality dressed up as a clown.

D.

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