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#67436 - 06/19/12 02:24 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Autodidact]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I'm not sure what exactly is lost in communication but something is since what I'm talking about is so simple and clear in my mind yet it seems to trigger some degree of confusion in others whenever I try to explain it. I talked to Dan for quite some time in chat yesterday before we were both at the same level on this, at least regarding simply talking about the same subject.

I'm not talking about groups and neither am I talking about changing this website and I'm not even talking about changing Satanism. I'm talking about evolution and change whenever I talk about movements. I'm talking about a natural process happening at ever level in society the moment enough people have a similar sort of realization or understanding. I'm talking about realizing the best is the maximum now and looking for a manner to make that the minimum.

Maybe all I'm talking about is progress.

D.

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#67447 - 06/19/12 09:14 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

It is so simplistic it inevitably attracts a majority of simpletons which in itself is irony at its best.


I think Satanism is simplistic to start with. People generally find it in their youth and it seems like a dark and mysterious way to rebel against the status quo. I also think that many who find an interest in it eventually give it up because they didn't understand the essence to begin with.

I think most never truly begin to leverage Satanism's most potent tool (intellectually) which is doubt. With the application of doubt to all things, Satanism itself becomes evolutionary within the person exercising said doubt. In other words, my Satanism isn't the same today as it was yesterday because I always have new things to explore on this path. With each new thought comes a slightly different perspective, some far reaching, some mundane.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Satanism, in the hands of an appropriately powerful person, is self evolving. As such, since we know these people exist, Satanism has and will continue to evolve as people begin to gain wider and deeper perspectives.

Reading TSB today, or The Lucifer Principle, or Postmodern Satanism doesn't mean the same thing to me that it meant to me yesterday because I make it a point to upgrade every day in some small or large way.

Also:

A random thought on The600 being a purely intellectual exchange. I think experience shapes the person and one who does not have worldly experience will not have the words to respond to things said here in a like manner with those who do. What happens offline is important in shaping the person to be able to understand/respond online.
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#67451 - 06/19/12 10:59 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
FemaleSatan Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 556
Loc: The Dirty South
I 'get' the intention of the post D (and have been reading this thread with great interest).

At some point the term Satanism is going to lose the intended essence being captured by that word. Living in what is primarily a Secular Society I do see that Satan, the word Satanism, etc ain't nearly as scary as it was when the Antons started putting their ideas on paper. I think that back in the 60's just having the curiosity and courage to read something like TSB was a slaying of a personal demon of sorts. It showed that those Individuals were already questioning things, were willing to risk damnation in order to obtain knowledge.

I don't see a lack in you communicating the point accurately, so much as a resistance to the idea that Satanism is dead as a form for what's being described by that label. A questioning of rather that label is valid is important, even critical to an Individual doing this *waves hand* thing.

That being said, I am still rather new and enamored with the label Satanism. I find the 'cannon fodder' that pops up amusing more than annoying. I find the followers who find Satanism an accurate reflection of what happens to any and all Religious/Philosophical/Praxial schools of thought.

But I am still a little green in comparison to others posting on this thread. I may find myself irritated, annoyed, and saying WTF? one day. I can already see that forms of Extremism, rather Racism, Sexism, etc get the reaction Satanism used to back in the 60's and 70's.
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#67468 - 06/20/12 01:33 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: FemaleSatan]
MoSa Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 191
 Quote:


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0242653/quotes

Neo: What do you want?
Bane: I want what you want... Yes. That's it, Mr. Anderson. Look past the flesh. Look through the soft gelatin of these dull cow eyes and see your enemy!
Neo: ...No.
Bane: Oh yes, Mr. Anderson.
Neo: It can't be...
Bane: There's nowhere I can't go. There's nowhere I won't find you.
Neo: It's impossible...!
Bane: Not impossible. Inevitable. Goodbye, Mr. Anderson.




Satanism will always be there, cause there is the law of repulsion.

There will be always a repel, it might just be in disguise and that make me wonder, did Satan ever in any story said that he was Satan directly?

I would not worry so much, it's just that first scenario of yours about finding similar minded people is that I find no direct solution for it.

Satanism as a set of actions and attitudes derived from all the history of Satan/Lucifer/etc.. and yet to be known as man's own reflection on what he considers belonging to that group as a simple escape from the reality of he is the one to blame.

When I imagine in like 15 years of now a certain group arises and it's actions/attitudes are all Satanic while they see Satan and Satanism as a ridicules idea...it's kinda hard to get them to realize that *this* is just like *that*, now before I rewind again repeating my self...I for one...will cope at and play like every one else, when Satanism is about studying not worshiping and praying..then it's not for every one...
And I accept the fact that I am not like most.

PS:Sorry for the theatrical beginning and for not being clear if I was not being clear.
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I am sure you can recognize who I am...
But if you don't....let me introduce my self...

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#67483 - 06/20/12 09:31 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: MoSa]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: MoSa

Satanism will always be there, cause there is the law of repulsion.


I think rather that "repulsion" is a part of a bigger thing. Consider: only certain vectors(forces) are repulsive. Some others ATTRACT. You know, like the prime force. sayxwhut??

Satanism is either FACTICITY or GARBAGE. YOU must decide.
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#67496 - 06/20/12 12:49 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Jason King]
DreamMystery Offline
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Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 167
Loc: Here
This discussion is interesting and I think revealing.

Diavolo it seems to me is saying this: The Satanic current appears to be on the wane, should we move on or attempt to salvage it? If the latter then how do we do it?


Some respond with disinterest, "The satanic current or something like it will always be around, so I'm not worried."

Some respond with disapproval of an almost moral character, "The satanic current is a collective, collectives should not be maintained by TRUE satanists such as myself."


So we have both apathy and morality with which to contend within the community if change is in order, just as may be faced in any community.


Satanism as a group will never be very influential without members supporting the group as such.

Instead of rejecting all groups as worthless, satanists need to realize that groups are both useful to the individual and evolutionarily necessary.

Just as many things of value and power are dangerous, so too with groups. One doesn't give up driving cars just because one found out that cars are dangerous to the individual driving them and polluting to the enviroment. The power and value outweighs the danger.

As an individualist, you should join many groups of which benefit you, and contribute to them as you would to anything you value, such as your car, or house, or partner.

The reasons for this are two-fold, Beauty and Utility.


The Nietzschean insight into the selfishness of all actions shows us that we need not abstain from any action for fear of altruism.


If you find Satanism beautiful or useful, then there should be nothing stopping you from contributing to it as a communal entity.

As I said before the enemies of change are Apathy and Morality.
These are widespread problems in Post-Modernity. Apatheists and Fundamentalists.

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#67498 - 06/20/12 01:07 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: DreamMystery]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: DreamMystery
Diavolo it seems to me is saying this: The Satanic current appears to be on the wane, should we move on or attempt to salvage it? If the latter then how do we do it?


Some respond with disinterest, "The satanic current or something like it will always be around, so I'm not worried."


I can't speak for Diavolo, but the Current cannot wane. That's what makes it the Current. That's what defines it as Facticity. This conversation concerns labels and self-identification, not that thing we all agree on. This is not disinterest, just acceptance. Find me a time under Heaven in which predation did not exist. Predation = life, predation = better life. This is the Current, and a rose by any other name . . .

JK
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#67499 - 06/20/12 01:15 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Indeed, I'm not talking about Satanism but about the label that defines Satanism. That which is defined by that label isn't something that can ever wane.

Maybe it would be easier to understand that regarding these labels and symbols, their strength and effectiveness, I live in your future (in own your interest, hope I really do) and do experience their usefulness each day.

In my cultural mindset, yours no longer does the trick.

D.

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#67505 - 06/20/12 02:20 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
DreamMystery Offline
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Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 167
Loc: Here


Problem one lies in convincing someone that there is indeed a real object which you are describing as the Satanic Current.

Problem two is that you must show that you do indeed have more knowledge regarding this object.

Problem three is that you must convince them of the value of getting this knowledge from you or some other teacher.


If you can convince someone of these things they will then be open to learning. Primed you might say.

This is only the beginning. Next you must successfully transmit your understanding, which may take time during which they must continue to be interested and open.

To reduce false positives of understanding, tests must be applied.


All this has been accomplished in the past by initiatory societies. It has proven the best method so far.

Transmission by book or other one-sided communication is possible but not optimal.




@Jason King


If you define the current as the facticity of predation, it can indeed wane. You are ascribing permanency to the impermanent.

Predation is an emergent property of life with access to limited local resources. If you find it beautiful or useful then fine.
It is not inconceivable that predation will halt. Who knows how evolution will solve the problem of locally limited resources in the future.

The mountain lion species does not necessarily improve the deer as a species it hunts. It may increase it's speed lets say, however the lion will then adapt as well. Overall objective power is increasing, but the balance is always there.

What I'm saying is that power progress is an illusion, a treadmill, ...MAYA.

Digression I know.

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#67506 - 06/20/12 02:49 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: DreamMystery]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
When did I mention convincing and/or teaching in what I said?

D.

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#67507 - 06/20/12 03:05 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
DreamMystery Offline
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Registered: 01/01/12
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Well if you don't convince anyone, why try? If you don't teach or motivate to self-teach, whats the point? To bring the signifier of Satanism closer to the signified for its own sake?
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#67512 - 06/20/12 03:33 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: DreamMystery]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: DreamMystery
The mountain lion species does not necessarily improve the deer as a species it hunts. It may increase it's speed lets say, however the lion will then adapt as well.


These two statements are contradictory, because you're misusing the word "improve". Lions killing deer certainly "improves" the deer species - this pressure is the essence of survival of the fittest. "Improve" means "more fit depending on context", not your subjective evaluation of "improve"ment.

 Originally Posted By: DreamMystery
Overall objective power is increasing, but the balance is always there.


This is also incorrect. Not only does evolution not work along an "objective" monotonically increasing scale of "power" (however you define it), but you believe there's a balance because you're looking small time frames.

Survival and dominance is all that matters. In future, if the lions eat all the deer, they can move elsewhere. The deer cannot.
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#67513 - 06/20/12 04:08 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Autodidact]
DreamMystery Offline
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Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 167
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I was responding to JK who said predation leads to better life.
By "better" I assumed a subjective value judgement, and this is what I meant with "Improve".

So basically the birds don't have a "happier" "better" life than the dinosaurs they evolved from. Is that a long enough timeframe? Individuals still compete to reproduce, find food, and avoid danger. Balance of course is present even across long time spans, like a large corporation balancing the books year after year, if they can't be balanced the whole thing collapses.

Survival and dominance are just teleonomic processes. They pertain to us as living beings and so are interesting but not "Ultimate" in any sense.

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#67515 - 06/20/12 04:30 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: DreamMystery]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: DreamMystery
I was responding to JK who said predation leads to better life.
By "better" I assumed a subjective value judgement, and this is what I meant with "Improve".
[...]


Ah, I hadn't read it like that. In that case, I disagree with both of you.

 Originally Posted By: DreamMystery
Survival and dominance are just teleonomic processes. They pertain to us as living beings and so are interesting but not "Ultimate" in any sense.


Hey, we agree on something
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#67546 - 06/21/12 05:58 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: DreamMystery]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: DreamMystery
If you define the current as the facticity of predation, it can indeed wane. You are ascribing permanency to the impermanent.

Predation is an emergent property of life with access to limited local resources. If you find it beautiful or useful then fine.
It is not inconceivable that predation will halt. Who knows how evolution will solve the problem of locally limited resources in the future.

The mountain lion species does not necessarily improve the deer as a species it hunts. It may increase it's speed lets say, however the lion will then adapt as well. Overall objective power is increasing, but the balance is always there.

What I'm saying is that power progress is an illusion, a treadmill, ...MAYA.

Digression I know.

Emphasis mine.

Predation is, I agree, a subset/species of something more encompassing. And I also think you hit the nail on the head by seeing it as an emergent property of the fact of limited resources. In such a case it is always the better adapted organism which gets the prize, whether it be by directly eating it (predation) or gaining it by other means (stealing, scavenging, etc.).

My point is, all of this related activity, loosely referred to as competition, is a necessary manifestation of the Current as it exists in the phenomenal world we inhabit. Yes it is maya, but that doesn't mean it is not phenomenally real, just not absolutely real. Gravity is also maya, but even knowing this, I would be rather foolish to jump off a high cliff into waiting crags.

When you refer to the progress of the whole (predator+prey), you are not arguing against my point at all, you're reinforcing it. This is the dual nature of the Current: adversarial interaction (Satanic) leading to overall better outcomes (Luciferian). And this occurs as a progressive gradation, which is how a relatively weak mammal (homo sapiens) can be the apex predator of the whole planet.

Bottom line: yes, at some point in the future, we may transcend predation as a species, but the Current will be no less real and no less gripping, we will have just unlocked new and better mechanisms for surviving the facticity of It.

JK
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