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#67923 - 06/27/12 07:35 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Fnord]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
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Interestingly enough a friend of mine recently became interested in Satanism from another friend of his who picked up from who the hell knows. He brought it up with me recently and started inquiring about rituals. This exchange didn't last very long after he learned of my disinterest in ritual. Another friend of mine has also shown a more casual interest in it but is exploring it none-the-less.

So if interest in Satanism is waning, I don't notice it. Nor does it concern me that it might be.

Perhaps the dying off of rhp belief sets has also caused people to be less inclined to pursue alternatives. This is an agreeable trade off in my mind. Besides, as has already been mentioned, Satanic principles are becoming more commonplace even if they aren't recognized as such. A rose by any other name, as it were.
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#67939 - 06/28/12 10:43 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

That you are trying to make sense of your selves, of the implications of your consciousness, is commendable. That you persist on chaining this effort to an obsolete, inadequate, and inaccurate totem is quite the other thing.


First off, I like the smileys. You use them in a creative way and that it gets under people's skin is funny to me.

Satan, to me, is symbolic of the enemy of faith. To be the enemy of faith, one must embrace doubt. To embrace doubt, one must take the onus to actively pursue truth. To pursue truth one must commit to eating from the Tree of Knowledge (symbolically) until truth is found. Being that there is no one universal truth this must be a solitary journey for each individual to find meaning for oneself.

Belief/faith is symbolic of the enemy of truth because if one believes he/she has the answer(s) then he/she stops seeking truth (aka descent into the dystrophic).

Being that +60% of the world's population report a belief/association with one of the three Abrahamic religions then I think using Satan (in the context of enemy of faith) as a symbol of non compliance/rejection of belief/rejection of groupthink makes perfect sense.

Of course, Satan also exists as the symbol of rebellion. Satan recognized his position as less than dominant and disliked the taste of it in his mouth. In order to rectify that situation, he sought to throw down with the baddest motherfucker in the universe. Those paying attention here will recognize that there are many things to learn about confrontation from this story.

Lessons learned, Satan goes about the business of becoming crafty and wise to obtain that which he needs.

In the above context, I can think of no better way to symbolize myself than as a Satan.

In my world, if I actually believed in a literal, cognitive, anthropomorphic, omniscient creator Satan, Set, God, etc. then I would feel absolved of at least some responsibility for myself in recognizing 'higher powers' orchestrating from above.

As such, I try to live my life in that exact place where rubber meets road. I like a good heady philosophical conversation as much as the next heretic but to me Satan is about 'doing'.
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#67943 - 06/28/12 11:38 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Fnord]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3147
The symbol of Satan was called obsolete (from my part) as soon as the need of an inward looking perspective was held. The symbol itself actually hindering progress as it was still a kind of idol-worship.

The label Satanist in itself reduced as an abstraction for a memeplex, a certain drive, a vibe as it wills. The ritualistic part was fun up to the moment it became boring and lost its power of mental/spiritual rebellion.

Symbolizing myself as a Satan is futile for the hidden idolatry and mirroring to an archetype. An internal focus still needing external reference as a point. I prefer to plunge into the depths and see what comes out of it. Satanism is not doing, I do and not "the Satanism". Satanism just being the name for the drive and memeplex possesed.
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#67948 - 06/28/12 12:30 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Dimitri]
RAIDER Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
I'm enjoying this discussion. The bottom line for me is that I am 'in the driver's seat'....unlike other belief systems that would have me think of myself as secondary at best.
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#67964 - 06/28/12 04:29 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Fnord]
DreamMystery Offline
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Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 167
Loc: Here
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Satan, to me, is symbolic of the enemy of faith. To be the enemy of faith, one must embrace doubt. To embrace doubt, one must take the onus to actively pursue truth. To pursue truth one must commit to eating from the Tree of Knowledge (symbolically) until truth is found. Being that there is no one universal truth this must be a solitary journey for each individual to find meaning for oneself.


Faith is not the enemy, lack of discrimination is.
If we can't know any truth for sure, then all "knowing" is faith, if only in yourself and your methods of pursuit of "truth". Discrimination comes in when deciding if the facts point to a "Truth/Faith" which is better than your current one.

Without "absolute truth" somewhere out there, even if forever beyond us, how does science work? Gravity is a fact, a part of the absolute truth, if it wasn't we would have more levitating monks than we could ignore.



I like your case for Satan as a good symbol though. The only sticking point is that his defeat is built in. That could signify the inevitable death of the individual I suppose...

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#67974 - 06/28/12 06:59 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: DreamMystery]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Gravity does appear to hold true under the set of conditions that we currently live under. Is gravity a fact elsewhere in the universe? How about everywhere in the universe? What if some cataclysmic event happened and the earth shifted poles? Would gravity work in the same way? It wouldn't matter, I suppose, as we'd all be dead.

Scientific method is about expected results under certain conditions and the conditions are subject to change.

If ever there were a model of 'real' reality it would have to include all tools used to measure it... including each individual (and their perception of it).

I see your point regarding discrimination. Around here we call it sorting wheat from chaff or process or praxis. All part of the trip.
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#68739 - 07/12/12 09:36 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Fnord]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
...Satan goes about the business of becoming crafty and wise to obtain that which he needs. In the above context, I can think of no better way to symbolize myself than as a Satan.
I associate myself too with Satan and I share quite similar attitude, what You described, but people sometimes have their superstitious prejudice and white/black brains... They cannot understand, that Satanist is man or woman, who knowingly leads his actions to get what he/she want.

Of course I don't care much about opinion of herd and proudly sometimes name myself - Satan!
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#77935 - 07/11/13 03:17 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Diavolo]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Quote:
Satanism as a whole has been in decline for more than a decade;...


As a whole? That right there tells me that 'Satanism' is being viewed as collectivism. Last time I checked, my Satanism isn't on a decline. In fact, it's just given momentum when I employ it. If I'm being complacent and lazy about things, I'll come around when the results are staring me in the face. I typically kick it up a notch, reassess any given situation and proceed accordingly.

An effort to dethrone me usually results in the adversarial force getting a run for its money. I'm still here, getting over it, through it or around it when it rams its head into my gut.

 Quote:
Are we purely clinging to it for nostalgic reasons and if, are we willing to have this nostalgia drag us down the pits of oblivion or is it time to cut where it hurts but in that, make the blood flow again?



Using Satan is Nostalgic by its very nature. Culturally speaking, the articulations haven't lost their flair, even if more and more people recognize it for what it is, vs. what they are told it is.


As for the idea of a sub-culture, that trite has been postulated for the better part of my adult life. Today, its what exactly? Internet forums, Social Networks, the occasional television broadcast, headline or book published? The only recognizable counter-cultural movement occurred before I was even born. Even then, I remain skeptical of it as anything but a loose cabal of people in it for the media snatch and grab.

When I think of an effective sub-culture, I'll use body-modification as a contextual example. At any given time, I can 'see' members of that sub-culture represented by the modifications they carry. Now-a-days it's like every other person you bump into either has tattoos, piercings, or some surgical implement on their person. There was a time when this was rare, or even unheard of. It extends to areas of the culture where it was once a taboo, such as in the workplace. I see it more and more in various fields of industry. The cashier at the grocery store, the business meeting I'm attending with stuffed suits, and even myself firmly planted therein.

If anything 'Satanism' is more visible than it ever was with the advent of the Internet and Social Media. Satan is just as much an impenetrable symbol as it ever was. It's not as if the kitsch and pop isn't still exploring the diabolical. The Devil is still a favored character at Halloween because of its connotations not in spite of.
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#77937 - 07/11/13 05:24 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: SIN3

Using Satan is Nostalgic by its very nature. Culturally speaking, the articulations haven't lost their flair, even if more and more people recognize it for what it is, vs. what they are told it is.


Indeed. I have found this to be unique to Satan. As a general rule, a symbol will lose its flair. Thus, we have sparkling vampires etc. That may, in part, be due to a weak mythos. Many a "Dark God" was assimilated. Satan should be "dead" ... yet isn't. I don't believe it is due to the Nazareth mythos. It just rolls on. The tricksters remain. Yet, more effort is required. Their fires burn, but they don't necessarily flair in a cultural sense.
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#77938 - 07/11/13 05:27 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3147
 Quote:
As a whole? That right there tells me that 'Satanism' is being viewed as collectivism.

When there's a label involved it stands there'll be a certain collective involved who will try to polish it in many different ways. The overall decline, which I agree with, does take place in the sense many will prefer to settle in a certain dark ethical/moralistic occult fluffy-ism and very few getting upfront (unless provoked after a good long boiling in withheld loathing/frustration).

While some might see a justification and affirmation (of the label) in writing tons of blogs, making videos or doing broadcasts on Satanism, being "artsy"/creative with "obscure" subjects/undertones (or for the sake of it),... I prefer to label it as or pretension, or (the previously mentioned) fluffy-ism.

If the devil is only justified in appearance, I'll be one hell of a saint. But hey, the devil sells best. Even if it became a microwaveable meal.


Edited by Dimitri (07/11/13 05:32 PM)
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#77950 - 07/11/13 11:11 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
Indeed, it seems to have 'always been', for the lack of a better phrase. I mean, if it saturated all of culture it would seem that it would no longer be necessary as a modality.
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#77951 - 07/11/13 11:16 PM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
When there's a label involved it stands there'll be a certain collective involved who will try to polish it in many different ways.


This to me just sounds like an effort to provide reference and definition, not necessarily a collective of Satanism.

His phraseology stated that Satanism was on a decline, not that people weren't polishing up their own respective practices and thoughts about it.

What you personally consider fluffyism would seem an irrelevant point to that effect. It's just more status quo.
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#77961 - 07/12/13 03:00 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3147
 Quote:
This to me just sounds like an effort to provide reference and definition, not necessarily a collective of Satanism.

On whatever side it is being turned or looked at, as soon as there's an association with the label (or just usage), a virtual collective is formed where each and every individual wearing said label is representative. Even if said individuals are upholding banners which contradict the associated ideas/thoughts from that label.

 Quote:
His phraseology stated that Satanism was on a decline, not that people weren't polishing up their own respective practices and thoughts about it.

Context my dear... can you see it?
The people polishing their practices and thoughts are the main reason "why" it can be generally said. It's something easily noticed unless when being part of that greater group who has mistaken the devil for appearance instead of words and deeds.

 Quote:
What you personally consider fluffyism would seem an irrelevant point to that effect. It's just more status quo.

Exactly, hence the reason why the idea of "decline".


Edited by Dimitri (07/12/13 03:04 AM)
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#77966 - 07/12/13 07:04 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
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As if this hasn't always been the case? I see no more of a decline today than I did say, 20 years ago.

In an effort to point out that I have misunderstood, I wonder if you understand what I'm saying here?

It's also as if its being discerned by individual users entertaining themselves or waxing philosophical on the Internet.

How would you measure the deeds? I see plenty of chest-pounding about these oh so important things people claim they are doing, but how do you investigate that, then attempt to prove it? By saying "Wow, that guy wrote a fantastic Essay, he's doing real shit in the world?" Surely not.

The deeds, are relative to personal effort, experience and achievement in one's own life.

And excuse me while I reject the collective. From my vantage point, my deeds and efforts are not that of the next guy. Maybe his only aspiration is to play badass from Mom's Basement.
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#77973 - 07/12/13 10:07 AM Re: Dethroning Satan? [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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In the debate you're wanting to hold, or the view you're ascribing to, of the "satanic landscape" not having changed that much I disagree with. You already hinted at the reason (and an argument backing up the why) where the thing became more "visible" (and triggered me to make the comment some believe the devil to be for, or justified in, appearance).

The typical response of the own achievements, experiences, efforts and deeds are the only that matter is actually more questionable than definite. A cheap cop-out, in my opinion, as it illustrates the lack of recognizable achievement. I tend to have higher standards than the typical self-gratifying actions as credit for the own "Satanic" praxis/philosophy. In many cases where this answer was given were with people who reached (pardon my language) shit in their lives and prefer to exaggerate pretty mundane actions as if "special"/exceptional. Most of the time accompanied with some pseudo-intellectual banter how it fits within "their paradigm" and are steps to become as the(/an) archetype. It's delusional at best.

 Quote:
And excuse me while I reject the collective. From my vantage point, my deeds and efforts are not that of the next guy.
Yet you're a radio host, and have published a certain amount of letters/journals. IF I'm not mistaking, there's not really a rejecting but moreover the (perhaps subconscious) opposite.


Edited by Dimitri (07/12/13 10:17 AM)
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