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#74748 - 01/22/13 09:44 PM The Role of Magic in Satanism?
Glitter Heart Offline
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Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 3
Loc: California
I am still learning about Satanism, so I hope you will excuse this question. I hope to not offend those of you who are practitioners of magic.

I was really drawn to Satanism due to its practicality. I like the concepts of "vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams" and "undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit." However, the role of magic in Satanism seems somewhat incongruous to these concepts.

I understand magic as a psychodrama--a tool to get out one's pent-up emotions. Also, I can see magic rituals working as in that book "The Secret" where creating vivid mental imagery leads you to accomplish your goals by envisioning the end results. But these are the only ways I can conceive of magic being a real force.

I do not understand the role of magic as a power that works in the real world. It just seems to go against the practicality of Satanism. I have been reading "The Secret Life of a Satanist" and LaVey seemed to really believe in the power of magic. People he put a hex on died shortly thereafter, which seems to confirm the power of his curses but I am skeptical.

If magic worked, wouldn't magicians all be the wealthiest, most powerful, best looking people on earth? (Of course, maybe they are!)

Again, my intent is not to offend; I am sincerely interested about how magic fits in to Satanism. I would love to hear about your viewpoint and especially welcome any recommendations for further research on the topic. (I did do a search of the forum) Thank you. \:\)

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#74751 - 01/22/13 10:04 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Glitter Heart]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1489
Loc: New York
 Quote:

I do not understand the role of magic as a power that works in the real world. It just seems to go against the practicality of Satanism.


I agree, although I never really gave it the old college try myself. So basically I'm poo poo-ing something that I myself have never tried.
However, I've seen people who claim to believe and practice magic (and even “Magik” with a K ooooh cool), and basically all I see are hippie like individuals sitting among a pile of trinkets not getting anywhere. But it makes them feel good I guess.

 Quote:

People he put a hex on died shortly thereafter, which seems to confirm the power of his curses but I am skeptical


Are you sure he put a curse on them and something happened shortly there after, or did he say that he put a curse on them shortly after something happened to them? The Doc was a clever one.

 Quote:

If magic worked, wouldn't magicians all be the wealthiest, most powerful, best looking people on earth? (Of course, maybe they are!)






I've argued that before also. However, when you think about it, would the most powerful and SUCCESFUL magicians share the secret of their success?
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#74756 - 01/23/13 12:10 AM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Glitter Heart]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Glitter Heart
I do not understand the role of magic as a power that works in the real world.

That's what the Temple of Set defines as Lesser Black Magic (LBM). You can do searches for it in the 600C; we've had lots of discussions about various aspects of it. You might also download my Black Magic and give it a whirl, particularly the LBM chapter.

Yes, much of what controls the world is in act LBM, but most of it is not done introspectively under that name. A good primer in this area is The Occult Technology of Power by my old Church of Satan chum from the early 1970s, Peter McAlpine.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

[On Ignore: Dread, 6Satan6Archist6, Caladrius, MindFux, SIN3, Wright]

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#74762 - 01/23/13 12:46 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1320
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
I would highly recommend anyone who truly wishes to understand LBM (and GBM for that matter) read "Black Magic" by Micheal A. Aquino. I had not put much thought into this material in almost 20 years until MAA did his most recent revision and I realized just how much of this material I had actually internalized.

I would also recommend a study of Chaos Magic. The texts escape me at the moment but I believe Morgan could recommend a few.

I would be interested to see how you answer your own questions after reading Black Magic. Please post back here after you do.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#74787 - 01/23/13 07:28 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Fist]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
To the original poster:

Since you're soliciting personal opinions, I'll offer mine. I'm a skeptical person who likes to keep grounded in reality. It's not that I discount the "supernatural," I just prefer to define it as "unexplainable." For me, magic is little more than suggestion, mimicry, persuasion, and the like in order to get what I want. I work in the sales industry and have had a great deal of success with this. In particular, the practice of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) has been the closest thing I've found to the rationalization of magic.

However, I have also experimented with "projection of will" through simple means like meditation, and I used to spend a lot of time practicing a poor-man's sensory deprivation exercise. Both of these brought about fairly profound (relatively speaking) results when focusing on specific goals. This lead me to do some further reading into both occult definitions and practices of magic/ritual, as well as some reading on Chaos magic. Personally speaking, I found Chaos Magic to be out of my league and something that I felt was definitely NOT for me. Ritualism, in the form of psychodrama, left me feeling silly, with the exception of one particular destruction ritual that was one of the most cleansing experiences I've ever had.

I think it's safe to say that magic is incredibly subjective and up to the individual as to how to practice it. The above recommended reading (or any reading for that matter) is never a bad idea. Have fun and stay safe.
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#74792 - 01/23/13 07:50 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Octavius]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
I would have to go with Fist's assessment. I'm a 'pather, but everything is based on internalized principles put into practice. It would be interesting to get new views on this and other tomes. Text is still important. It is a good way to get a feel for the essence of a given practice. As to the actual role of any element of the practice ... you gotta give it a go.
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#74793 - 01/23/13 07:52 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Octavius]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I always thought that magic within the Satanic realm seemed a bit iffy to me as well. Although, as you've noticed, Anton certainly had a bit to say about it. I've waved the flags of several different paths but when it came down to it, I grew a fond spot in my heart for Chaoism, which seems to me to be the only logical fit for the mash up of Satanism and psychodrama.

 Originally Posted By: Glitter Heart
If magic worked, wouldn't magicians all be the wealthiest, most powerful, best looking people on earth? (Of course, maybe they are!)


The ideas of wealth, power and beauty can be extremely subjective. \:\) So who is to say what those things are in their extremity? Because ritual use is suited to the user, these ideas could very well be the "most" of all of them.
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#74824 - 01/24/13 12:45 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Glitter Heart]
Fnord Moderator Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1879
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
I have been reading "The Secret Life of a Satanist" and LaVey seemed to really believe in the power of magic. People he put a hex on died shortly thereafter, which seems to confirm the power of his curses but I am skeptical.


Or, he was saying those things as a way to draw an element of mystery and/or doubt around himself. In The Satanic Witch, LaVey goes to great lengths in discussing presentation of oneself and about creating the image you wish others to see.

I'm not sure I've laid out my personal view on ritual magic yet so I'll offer it here since you're so polite!

I think that we, in the west (in general), almost always resort to the tool of the logical conscious brain to solve our problems. We refer to this as 'thinking about it' and it involves the conscious effort of weighing evidence and making decisions within the framework of what we refer to as sane and reasonable.

Whether correct or not, I've always thought of this as 'top' or surface activity. It's the brain clicking away at daily activities and making thousands of small decisions every day. I've come to find that a lot of people seem to live in this space and will regard anything not understood by Aristotelian means as fiction, fantasy etc.

Here is where I break a bit from current academia. I believe that underneath the brain's surface activity lies some really heavy machinery that some call the subconscious. Some understand this as just another part/function of the brain, and others see it as completely non existent. In my case, I feel like I can engage two distinct types of thought patterns, conscious and subconscious.

As conscious brain activity is simple to engage, subconscious thought is difficult and some measure of work is required to access this deeper mechanism (at least in my case).

When I first started programming computers I became aware of this deeper level of thought. I was, because of my sunny disposition \:\) , able to land a job that I was a bit under qualified for. Often I was asked to come up with a solution to something that was above my current level of understanding. On one particular project, without all the boring details, I was in a bind and decided to simply stop thinking about it. It was the weekend, and I told myself that I would walk into work on Monday with the answer. I don't remember what I did that weekend, probably drank beer, futzed around with the kids, etc. but I did wake up at about 4am the following Monday with the answer. I got dressed, hauled ass to work and put the code together. When I showed my boss she asked how I did it and I told her I had no idea (I didn't), that it came to me in a dream. Of course, at the office, that's become a joke but the power of what happened was not lost on me.

Since then, I've been actively seeking ways to engage the subconscious. A weird attribute of it seems to be that I can't do it while I'm thinking about it because conscious activity has to be muted to minimum levels. I have begun in more recent years to use ritual magic as a way to remove myself from the mundane world and engage that deeper level of understanding. I think of tribal music and some of the ways of the ancients and realize that they must have created some of their plays and dances as a way to break free of convention/challenges and to gain insight on a deeper level.

To me this is where the power of magic lies. It's not some meaningless 'psychodrama' but a way (one of many) to engage the intelligence that lies deep within. Since ritual, by definition, becomes so familiar that to do it doesn't require thought, it's a vehicle to move away from the prisons of convention and toward non thought.

Anyway, sorry so long.

As an aside, the source of what comes from the subconscious is a subject of long standing debate. \:\)
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Stomping on your fluffy bunnies.

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#74832 - 01/24/13 04:00 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Fnord]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Reading your post Fnord made me think of this habit I developed as a little girl.

These days, I like to work on what I refer to as a "dream plane". The little piece of time space between real sleep and consciousness. It's much easier for me to envision things and often I can imagine things so clear that I have to force my eyes open because it seems as if I am really there. Anyhow, on to the point...

When I was a little girl, I learned about people who would listen to things as they went to sleep. Generally, it was self help items such as "I will see myself in a beautiful way tomorrow" or "I will such and such" ectect. I figured that it sounded easy enough and if ever I had a fear that I could not conquer or some type of problem I could not resolve, I'd lay in bed at night and mentally repeat "I will feel better tomorrow" or whatever it was that was bothering me or I needed answers for. It actually did it's part and I still have times where I do it now.

As I mention previously, I like to do a lot of my ritual work in that plane and I think the reason it became so easy for me to do so is because of the exercises that I partook in as a youngster.
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#74835 - 01/24/13 04:17 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Fnord]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Quote:
When I first started programming computers I became aware of this deeper level of thought. I was, because of my sunny disposition , able to land a job that I was a bit under qualified for. Often I was asked to come up with a solution to something that was above my current level of understanding. On one particular project, without all the boring details, I was in a bind and decided to simply stop thinking about it. It was the weekend, and I told myself that I would walk into work on Monday with the answer. I don't remember what I did that weekend, probably drank beer, futzed around with the kids, etc. but I did wake up at about 4am the following Monday with the answer. I got dressed, hauled ass to work and put the code together. When I showed my boss she asked how I did it and I told her I had no idea (I didn't), that it came to me in a dream. Of course, at the office, that's become a joke but the power of what happened was not lost on me.


I do this all the time. The time in the wee hours where you have one foot in both worlds is an excellent time to allow your mind to scrape together all the bits and pieces of knowledge and creativity that you normally shove aside as clutter.

I have found that I do my best thinking when I'm only barely half awake. Often I can see angles and factors and make connections that I didn't even notice or consider when I was going about my day actively trying to solve a problem.

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#74843 - 01/24/13 05:55 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Fnord]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1489
Loc: New York
I see the subconscious pretty much as you do.

I don't believe that anyone can define it perfectly, but we are quite certain that it is there. The way I see it (and I don't claim to be right about it) is that it is a natural part of the brain. Kind of like a second much larger hard drive in a computer that works with as well as separately with the main hard drive. This second hard rive never shuts off, but keeps recording and processing things that it acquires from the main drive as well as the objective world around it.

Although it might compute things and has information to forward, if the main hard drive (consciousness) is working on something (which it always does while a person is awake) it cannot forward the information to the screen (cognitive part of the brain)

If the conscious part of the brain wants to draw information out of the subconscious it can put in a request and a search, but will not be able to filter out the result because of all the other calculations going on up front in the main hard drive or in the conscious part of the brain.

However when most of the cognitive processes are turned very low, but not off yet (sleep) the main hard drive has an easier time processing information sent from the larger drive, because there isn't a bunch of other stuff (static?) in the way.

When we are very relaxed, and or in a meditation mode (which is comparable to the time between still being awake but in the process of falling asleep) all the information that we were seeking is suddenly shot up through the processor into the conscious part of the brain and can be somewhat decoded, but not completely.

The wrench in the system is that even though at this point our conscious brain (main hard drive) is receiving input from the secondary hard drive, our processor has difficulty decoding the message because we do not understand the system that this secondary hard drive runs on, and are unable to write a program for it that will decode the information that it sends to be processed.
So therefore we have to rely on the conscious part of the brain to decode a language that it isn't equipped to decode (translate) into a language that we can understand perfectly. The result is something like an American trying to understand a Jamaican who talks very fast.

Unfortunately once we try to force the main drive into working mode to decode the messages from the subconscious, the main drive is filled with too much activity to do so once again. In other words the messages from down below get drowned out by the effort of thinking about it, and other thoughts in the conscious part of the brain takeover.

I think this is why just before falling asleep we may come up with some awesome solution to things, but never quite grasp it fully and once we are awake the next morning we only remember bits and pieces of our grand ideas.

Once the main drive (consciousness) is in sleep mode, then there is no decoding of the subconscious messages, that are being sent forward available, and we just get jumbled data which is viewed as a dream.

I know this isn't exactly how it works, but it's pretty much how I view it at this time. The funny thing is these are some of the things that I think about before falling asleep, and this is one of the answers that came into my consciousness about how the subconscious works.
I do have to apologize to the computer experts out there for using a computer model that I'm am not completely familiar with as an analogy.
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#74883 - 01/27/13 03:02 AM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Glitter Heart]
nocTifer Offline
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Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 78
Loc: Khazakstan
 Originally Posted By: Glitter Heart
...the role of magic in Satanism seems somewhat incongruous to {vital existence, undefiled wisdom}.

Too small a view of Satanism makes it incongruous. To get a glimpse of its possibilities, pull back to Satanism's inception with its 'Magic Circle' and lectures on spellcraft, voodoo dolls, and the allowance for multiple paradigmatic adherencies. There are several possible layers at which magic may work here and still be 'in Satanism' without embracing spiritual pipedreams.

 Originally Posted By: Glitter Heart
I understand magic as a psychodrama--a tool to get out one's pent-up emotions {or ...} to accomplish your goals by envisioning the end results. ...

Those seem like quite rational and practical endorsements of magic.

 Originally Posted By: Glitter Heart
I do not understand the role of magic as a power that works in the real world. It just seems to go against the practicality of Satanism.

As long as it doesn't directly interfere with the pragmatic aspects of getting what you want, I'm unsure how it 'goes against' any kind of pragmatism. In fact it may have psychological and social dimensions you haven't mentioned, if nothing metaphysical.

 Originally Posted By: Glitter Heart
...LaVey seemed to really believe in the power of magic. People he put a hex on died shortly thereafter, which seems to confirm the power of his curses but I am skeptical.

That's the intended storyline. It's important to discern when examining magic between the appearance intended by the promoter and the actualities. Consider how stage magic works and study it a bit (say, after Penn and Teller) and you may see more what I mean here.

 Originally Posted By: Glitter Heart
If magic worked, wouldn't magicians all be the wealthiest, most powerful, best looking people on earth? (Of course, maybe they are!)

This ignores the diversity of skill with respect to the art. Just because there is potential to use a tool to achieve this does not mean that everyone who uses that tool will achieve its utmost effect. And yes, there are some who will definitely argue in your wake that they really are quite powerful and influential despite appearances. 'You will need the eyes to see', they can affirm.

 Originally Posted By: Glitter Heart
Again, my intent is not to offend; I am sincerely interested about how magic fits in to Satanism. ...

Offense factors nicely in Satanism. When someone is offended this tells us much about their weaknesses and biases. Where the approach is tactful and attempts a respectful demeanor it can go so far as to appear timid or merely give the impression of cordiality.

I would like to suggest for you that the generalization of 'into Satanism' is simply too far a stretch, since Satanism is elastic and may hold many differing and contradictory premises, values, and beliefs. Magics likewise. What a Satanism is will in some measure help to determine what kinds of magic will be promoted or practiced within it. There are social, psychological, even economic factors that can achieve a dimensional vector of influence without positing anything supernatural or extraordinary. Mysticism fostered into the mix may allow additional complexity of personal development besides (and some actually require this as part of their magic else consider it corrupt or immoral).

Thanks for asking this question.
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http://www.gospel-of-satan.com

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#74889 - 01/27/13 06:12 AM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Glitter Heart]
Dimitri Offline
senior member


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 2415
 Quote:
I do not understand the role of magic as a power that works in the real world.

The role of "magic" and its definition of psychodrama is nothing but a cathartic avtivity. The "magic" of psychodrama only suiting as a revitalization of the mental condition. An intellectual decompression in order to get on with things and not being stuck in stress-related ponderings.

It's externalization of the inner emotional state/conflict in a "safe" environment. Altough punching the object of frustration is an even better option, "magic" (in this context) is a close second.
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#74938 - 01/28/13 10:12 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Glitter Heart]
Doctor Demon Offline
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Registered: 07/09/12
Posts: 14
Loc: Washington, DC
My recommendation is that you try magical ritual for yourself. It is something of an interesting, developmental exercise to simply write out a complete ritual, in order, based on the material in the Satanic Bible. If you are not feeling the Destruction. Lust or Compassion ritual, then do a simple "Dedication" ritual to invoke the powers of Hell upon your life generally. Whatever. In any case, just as a practical exercise, you might find that it gives you a little deeper insight into Satanism as, not just a philosophy, but a religion.

Secondly, as to your not understanding, "the role of magic as a power that works in the real world. It just seems to go against the practicality of Satanism", let me simply offer this perspective. In many ways, the conduct of a magical ritual is Action Therapy. It is a thing you DO as a complement to express and externalize the things you FEEL. My view is that this has several effects, particularly on your unconscious (per Jung). So, even IF that is ALL it does, that is HOW it is useful in the real world.

That is my $0.02. Your mileage may vary.
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Doctor Demon



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#74950 - 01/30/13 05:04 PM Re: The Role of Magic in Satanism? [Re: Doctor Demon]
lawovnature Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Dallas, TX
The way I have explained how magick works for myself is that you have to learn to forget things. We see trees everyday, and our brain gives us a message "that is a tree", and that's where we often leave it. By actually studying a tree, blocking the activity in the brain that gives the bland "that is a tree" interpretation, we can then see the tree for the first time again and explore its living twists, and cracks of its tough hide, breathing in all the oxygen it produces. It has more of an intoxicating effect viewing things in such a way.

Magick for me is split into word and art. Art can paint the meaning of a word higher than the words definition in written form can, as well as a word spoken can be symbolic of art in which we cannot imagine. I personally do not think magic is an actual unseen force, but rather something that exists in us all, we only have to turn the key.
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