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#75979 - 04/15/13 04:44 AM Satanists and Abortion
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
I consider Satanism a religion that is fairly concerned with justice and not harming those that are unable to protect themselves such as children and animals (rules 9 and 10 of the 11 Satanic rules of Earth) but does this extend to the unborn?

I was recently having a discussion with someone on another forum about abortion and it went something like this:

 Quote:

Me: I kind of think that abortion should only be in medically necessary cases for the most part. I don't necessarily see why a fetus should have to die because of what the parents did.

Him:Both of your responses suggest that you assign some inherent value to a human fetus. Why? Shouldn't we already-born people be more concerned with our own wellbeing, rather than that of an unthinking, unfeeling fetus? It seems to me that in practically every case where a woman chooses to have an abortion, we are all the better for it. Whether the child would be deformed, or the birth would have killed the mother, or if the mother couldn't support it or just didn't want it, in all cases we are better off for it not being born. Nevertheless, law-abiding adults should have the right to choose for themselves. I feel that the government has no right to meddle in the affairs of its constituents as personal as that. In situations where the female does not have the right to choose (e.g., children and criminals), the result should be that which promotes the most social benefit, which, again, is probably always abortion.

Me:There is no such thing as inherent value. I meant a fetus that has developed a brain. I have no qualms with elimination of an embryo for example through medication. It's more about a sense of empathy for the fetus that can feel the pains of being aborted.

Him: How could you know that a fetus in any stage of development feels pain? More importantly, who cares? As it is generally in our best interests to abort fetuses, I feel that we should do so. The feelings of someone or something with no retributive capabilities are of no consequence in making economical decisions.

Me: Well I think it's pretty obvious that at least in the last trimester that it is capable of feeling pain. And I care, and I'm sure that many other people care too.If we do not assign value to innocent human life then what's to stop any of us from killing innocent full grown adults?

Him: Maybe so, but it's still irrelevant. You should not allow your misplaced empathy to interfere with your reasoning and because we are innocent full grown adults ourselves. As we are all interested in our own well being, we have agreed that we all ought to have the right to life. Unless, of course, we do something to lose it. Fetuses, meanwhile, don't deserve their death, as a murderer or a rapist does, but as none of us are fetuses, and there are no consequences to killing them, we can justify killing them whenever it benefits us to do so.

Me:All reasoning is emotional when it comes down to it.
"Because we are white ourselves. As we are all interested in our own well being we have agreed that we all ought to have the right to life. Unless of course we do something to loose it. Blacks, meanwhile don't deserve their death as a murderer or rapist does but as none of US are black and there are no consequences to killing them we can justify killing them whenever it benefits us to do so."

Him: To some degree, perhaps, but for the reasons I have already suggested, I feel that your emotions are hindering your reason, rather than helping it. After all, the reason that our species evolved our capacity for reason is to maximize our efforts for the greatest benefit. Further, comparing fetuses to blacks is not an apt comparison. Before the blacks were given rights, they proved themselves quite capable of stirring up trouble. Equal rights for all races apparently reduces social discord. Fetuses, in contrast, have no means of retribution.

Me:So you only care about the rights of people/things that can fight back?

Him: And groups that include myself, but yes.

Me: Wow. That's a bit short sighted and hypocritical. What if everyone thought that way? What if the government decided they didn't care about the rights of anyone who didn't have a tank or army of their own to defend themselves?



Edited by PoisonDrinkMe (04/15/13 05:10 AM)

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#75984 - 04/15/13 04:35 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
FemaleSatan Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 556
Loc: The Dirty South



I agree with the person you were having the back and forth with. This in particular:

 Quote:
Him:Both of your responses suggest that you assign some inherent value to a human fetus. Why? Shouldn't we already-born people be more concerned with our own wellbeing, rather than that of an unthinking, unfeeling fetus? It seems to me that in practically every case where a woman chooses to have an abortion, we are all the better for it. Whether the child would be deformed, or the birth would have killed the mother, or if the mother couldn't support it or just didn't want it, in all cases we are better off for it not being born. Nevertheless, law-abiding adults should have the right to choose for themselves. I feel that the government has no right to meddle in the affairs of its constituents as personal as that. In situations where the female does not have the right to choose (e.g., children and criminals), the result should be that which promotes the most social benefit, which, again, is probably always abortion.


 Quote:
Me: Wow. That's a bit short sighted and hypocritical. What if everyone thought that way? What if the government decided they didn't care about the rights of anyone who didn't have a tank or army of their own to defend themselves?


The Government doesn't care about anyone. It is a system designed to impose order on the masses. That's it.

The abortion debate boils down to one thing for me, should the Government have the ability to legislate what boils down to a moral issue? In my opinion, no. So abortion should be legal.
_________________________
http://female-satan.blogspot.com


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#75985 - 04/15/13 04:51 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: FemaleSatan]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: FemaleSatan



The Government doesn't care about anyone. It is a system designed to impose order on the masses. That's it.

The abortion debate boils down to one thing for me, should the Government have the ability to legislate what boils down to a moral issue? In my opinion, no. So abortion should be legal.




Isn't the government ALL about moral issues? Like "don't murder" or "don't steal" etc?

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#75986 - 04/15/13 05:26 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2139
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
It's more about a sense of empathy for the fetus that can feel the pains of being aborted.


I once watched a propaganda movie about a suffering fetus during the abortion. All you could see was a vague picture of a fetus in a womb, as the one you can see during an ultrasound exam. You could not tell much from it, but the "wise" experts told you all you needed to know: that the baby is looking at the abortion instruments with fear, that it writhes in pain, that it screams for help and, next, it is torn to pieces and removed from the womb, piece by piece. In the end, you could see the bloody remains of the poor fetus. You would not believe how damn big it was, too big for a human. Well, perhaps, it was an alien.

People who say that fetuses feel pain say it , because they have a certain agenda. Most of them are pro-life activists and those who support pro-life movement. However, it is all bullshit. There is no evidence that a fetus can feel pain until the last trimester and even this is not certain. Generally it is thought that a fetus is anesthetized in the womb and it gains consciousness when it is born. And then it can feel pain for sure, but earlier it is all a guessing game.

In my opinion, a woman should have a right to an abortion on demand. It is her womb, after all. This would stop all the unnecessary suffering of not only mothers, but also unwanted children, who are often abandoned after birth. All the regulations do not protect children (it is possible to have an illegal abortion, though it is quite expensive) and they cause many problems for women wanting to have a legal abortion.

In Poland a woman can have a legal abortion when the child is deformed, pregnancy is a danger to the woman's health or life and when the woman was raped. This is theory. However, the practice looks different. It is really hard for raped women to have a legal abortion. First of all, it is not that easy to prove rape and the trial can take a long time. Second, doctors are afraid. In case of an illegal abortion a doctor is punished, not a patient. Last, the woman can be bullied by pro-life activists and fanatical Catholics who often picket courts and hospitals. Recently one woman sued Poland to the Strasbourg Court because the doctors refused to perform an abortion, though she showed them the court permission. In the end, the health minister had to intervene annd put her up in the hospital, where she could finally have a legal abortion. And even then she did not have peace as the hardcore Christians shouted behind her windows: Murderers!!! Murderers!!!
_________________________
Anna Czereda
Crazy Cat Lady

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#75987 - 04/15/13 05:44 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Czereda]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: Czereda


I once watched a propaganda movie about a suffering fetus during the abortion. All you could see was a vague picture of a fetus in a womb, as the one you can see during an ultrasound exam. You could not tell much from it, but the "wise" experts told you all you needed to know: that the baby is looking at the abortion instruments with fear, that it writhes in pain, that it screams for help and, next, it is torn to pieces and removed from the womb, piece by piece. In the end, you could see the bloody remains of the poor fetus. You would not believe how damn big it was, too big for a human. Well, perhaps, it was an alien.

Ok that seems a bit dramatic. I doubt that a fetus would even be afraid of abortion instruments until they started cutting and I'm not sure how developed the vocal cords are at various stages.



 Quote:
People who say that fetuses feel pain say it , because they have a certain agenda. Most of them are pro-life activists and those who support pro-life movement. However, it is all bullshit. There is no evidence that a fetus can feel pain until the last trimester and even this is not certain. Generally it is thought that a fetus is anesthetized in the womb and it gains consciousness when it is born. And then it can feel pain for sure, but earlier it is all a guessing game.

If there were no pain involved I likely would have as much of a problem with this at all. That's why I don't mind flushing out embryos as a common practice. They have no ability to sense the pain of dying on an advanced level. I don't believe that there is no pain until after it's born though. That sounds like pro-choice propaganda to me. The answer is really likely somewhere in the middle.

 Quote:
In my opinion, a woman should have a right to an abortion on demand. It is her womb, after all. This would stop all the unnecessary suffering of not only mothers, but also unwanted children, who are often abandoned after birth. All the regulations do not protect children (it is possible to have an illegal abortion, though it is quite expensive) and they cause many problems for women wanting to have a legal abortion.

Even in the third trimester when it's more plausible that it can feel pain? I think that if a woman wants an abortion she should do it as soon as possible.

 Quote:
In Poland a woman can have a legal abortion when the child is deformed, pregnancy is a danger to the woman's health or life and when the woman was raped. This is theory. However, the practice looks different. It is really hard for raped women to have a legal abortion. First of all, it is not that easy to prove rape and the trial can take a long time. Second, doctors are afraid. In case of an illegal abortion a doctor is punished, not a patient. Last, the woman can be bullied by pro-life activists and fanatical Catholics who often picket courts and hospitals. Recently one woman sued Poland to the Strasbourg Court because the doctors refused to perform an abortion, though she showed them the court permission. In the end, the health minister had to intervene annd put her up in the hospital, where she could finally have a legal abortion. And even then she did not have peace as the hardcore Christians shouted behind her windows: Murderers!!! Murderers!!!

Personally I don't see rape as a reason to justify abortion.

What about the part of the conversation about valuing innocent human life as a whole so that killing innocent adults is not seen as justified?

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#75988 - 04/15/13 05:56 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
XiaoGui17 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1361
Loc: Austin, TX
You're making a mountain out of a hydatidiform mole-hill.

You said you're fine with abortion before the last trimester:
"I have no qualms with elimination of an embryo for example through medication...Well I think it's pretty obvious that at least in the last trimester that it is capable of feeling pain."

And you said you're fine with abortion for medical necessity:
"I kind of think that abortion should only be in medically necessary cases for the most part."

So basically, the only abortions you're not okay with are last trimester elective abortions. How common are those? (Hint: Almost never.)

An early trimester abortion costs a weeks' pay on a job flipping burgers and the woman can go home immediately afterwards. A late trimester abortion costs the price of a new car and requires an extended hospital stay for recovery. So if a woman is going to have an elective abortion, she's going to do it early on. In the US, abortions after the 24th week of gestation make up only 1 out of every 1,250 abortions. If a woman bothers to have an abortion in the third trimester, it's usually not a case of, "Oops, I got knocked up," it's a case of "I wanted this baby so bad, and then when the tests were run I discovered the baby had anencephaly/ Potter's Syndrome/ harlequin ichthyosis/ trisomy 13."

 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
Isn't the government ALL about moral issues? Like "don't murder" or "don't steal" etc?

No, the government is all about maintaining order. If you had people going around stealing shit and killing one another, you'd have a chaos that wouldn't be very conducive to the government's interest.
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

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#75990 - 04/15/13 06:35 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
TwIzT Offline
member


Registered: 12/21/11
Posts: 127
It seems to me that guy you were conversing with was connecting Social Darwinism with something that is not even a part of society.

The government is all about money and power. Ask yourself what is the U.S. doing overseas, point aside.


Edited by TwIzT (04/15/13 06:39 PM)
_________________________
We are all the lab mice bred for one purpose to run the wheel to power america. Cheeze controls us.

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#75991 - 04/15/13 06:40 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17

If a woman bothers to have an abortion in the third trimester, it's usually not a case of, "Oops, I got knocked up," it's a case of "I wanted this baby so bad, and then when the tests were run I discovered the baby had anencephaly/ Potter's Syndrome/ harlequin ichthyosis/ trisomy 13."

Well I would consider that medically necessary. It would be cruel to make a child survive whatever amount of time with some horrible things like that.

 Quote:
No, the government is all about maintaining order. If you had people going around stealing shit and killing one another, you'd have a chaos that wouldn't be very conducive to the government's interest.

Are morals not for maintaining order?

Again, I ask, If it's ok to end innocent healthy human lives like those of a fetus then what's to stop anyone from taking the life of an innocent healthy adult human? Is it not the value we assign to innocent human life that matters? Or are we hypocritical enough to take from those that cannot defend themselves and expect others not to do the same to us?

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#75992 - 04/15/13 06:54 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
TwIzT Offline
member


Registered: 12/21/11
Posts: 127
Actually revenue is made off crime. And just to point out the bombing in Boston that took place today did happen.


Edited by TwIzT (04/15/13 07:04 PM)
_________________________
We are all the lab mice bred for one purpose to run the wheel to power america. Cheeze controls us.

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#75993 - 04/15/13 06:59 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
XiaoGui17 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1361
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
Again, I ask, If it's ok to end innocent healthy human lives like those of a fetus then what's to stop anyone from taking the life of an innocent healthy adult human?

Go back up to my previous post. Read again. Rinse and repeat until you get it. You having a moral crisis about a imaginary practice. Third trimester abortions (when the fetus can feel pain) are done only for medical reasons. You already got what you wanted. So what are you crying about?
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

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#75994 - 04/15/13 09:01 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2092
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe

Again, I ask, If it's ok to end innocent healthy human lives like those of a fetus then what's to stop anyone from taking the life of an innocent healthy adult human? Is it not the value we assign to innocent human life that matters? Or are we hypocritical enough to take from those that cannot defend themselves and expect others not to do the same to us?


Where in Satanism, as an official position, is the taking of any life condoned?

The concerning issue with abortion is where, exactly, does life begin. We Satanists are not judges of the morality of others. We, as a whole, believe in the ability of one another to make moral decisions that affect our own lives.

As it stands, abortion is not illegal and murder is. Each have a definition under the law and under current conditions remain separate issues. Your conflation of the two things is yours alone.

The law is not confusing.
_________________________
From the ashes arisen

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#75998 - 04/15/13 09:24 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Fnord]
Triumphant777 Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/11/13
Posts: 69
Loc: United Kingdom
As long as a person successfully reproduces during their lifetime, even one chid is enough. Looking at the struggle of life in all living creatures, this seems to be the goal: passing on your genetic code. In crude terms, the chid could be given a chance at life and left to be cared for by others and then itself. If one does not care for the quality of life the chid would get, or is uninterested in teaching and nurturing the child, there is no problem. Now to be fair, the kid might turn out to be extremely capable and talented and excel in life. However, the odds will be against the kid, like planting a seed, leaving it, and hoping it would become a tree one day. It is all about giving your offspring the best possible chance (as is in the natural world). If a person decides to wait for a more opportune time and circumstance, they should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy. As far as the foetus is concerned, it has no self awareness, no personality, no consciousness, and no will. It is like a seed. One has a number of these seeds and may choose complex strategies on how and when to sow them for best chances of success.
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#76003 - 04/15/13 11:56 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: FemaleSatan]
Le Deluge Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: FemaleSatan
The abortion debate boils down to one thing for me, should the Government have the ability to legislate what boils down to a moral issue? In my opinion, no. So abortion should be legal.


I'm kind of amazed to see this topic arise here. It has been settled twice by the Supreme Court. A woman has the right to choose. The poster should address her grievances to Justice Anthony Kennedy ... not us.
_________________________
Apres Moi ... Le Deluge

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#76008 - 04/16/13 05:50 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Le Deluge]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
Again, I ask, If it's ok to end innocent healthy human lives like those of a fetus then what's to stop anyone from taking the life of an innocent healthy adult human?

Go back up to my previous post. Read again. Rinse and repeat until you get it. You having a moral crisis about a imaginary practice. Third trimester abortions (when the fetus can feel pain) are done only for medical reasons. You already got what you wanted. So what are you crying about?

Ok you have a point. For the most part abortions are in the first trimester.


 Originally Posted By: Le Deluge

I'm kind of amazed to see this topic arise here. It has been settled twice by the Supreme Court. A woman has the right to choose. The poster should address her grievances to Justice Anthony Kennedy ... not us.

It's more a case of wanting to know what other Satanists would do and how other Satanists see the issue.

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#76010 - 04/16/13 08:07 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Fnord]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 924
Loc: Nashville
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Where in Satanism, as an official position, is the taking of any life condoned?

It could be argued that in Satanism, as an official position, the taking of life could be “condoned” if it’s what the Satanist wanted.

 Quote:
The concerning issue with abortion is where, exactly, does life begin. We Satanists are not judges of the morality of others. We, as a whole, believe in the ability of one another to make moral decisions that affect our own lives.

It all comes down to that, doesn’t it: Where does life begin? For those who think life begins at conception, abortion is murder. For those who think life begins at birth, abortion is simply a medical procedure. Although I happen to side with the former, I must admit that a plausible argument could be made for the latter. Therefore, I reluctantly find myself siding with the “choicers.” Bottom line: If you’re against abortion, don’t put yourself in a position where abortion becomes a viable option.

 Quote:
As it stands, abortion is not illegal and murder is. Each have a definition under the law and under current conditions remain separate issues. Your conflation of the two things is yours alone.

The law is not confusing.

The law is not confusing, but politics is confusing as hell. You couldn’t pay me enough to run for public office. Well, maybe you could…

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