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#76011 - 04/17/13 12:55 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: William Wright]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: William Wright

It could be argued that in Satanism, as an official position, the taking of life could be “condoned” if it’s what the Satanist wanted.

What about the 11 Satanic Rules of Earth? Do they mean nothing even to a Satanist?


 Quote:
It all comes down to that, doesn’t it: Where does life begin? For those who think life begins at conception, abortion is murder. For those who think life begins at birth, abortion is simply a medical procedure. Although I happen to side with the former, I must admit that a plausible argument could be made for the latter. Therefore, I reluctantly find myself siding with the “choicers.” Bottom line: If you’re against abortion, don’t put yourself in a position where abortion becomes a viable option.

Well it's clearly a human life at conception because of the DNA it contains. The question of whether it's "ok" or not to kill it is probably based in its ability to feel pain, just as it's ethical to euthanize people who are brain death in a coma.

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#76012 - 04/17/13 05:16 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Conchis Offline
member


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 207
Loc: us
 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
What about the 11 Satanic Rules of Earth? Do they mean nothing even to a Satanist?

I would assume that you are referring to number 9: Do not harm little children. Personally I find this statement to be quite vague. So vague, in fact, that I cannot fathom why one would adjust their view of abortion do to this statement. Aside from that I do not feel that I have read anything written by ASL that made me believe he was against a woman's right to choose (perhaps someone here has an example that I am not aware of). Actually I get the exact opposite feeling from LaVey's writing. Also The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, to my eyes, read more like clubhouse rules, (to follow while visiting the black house) than hardened and well reasoned philosophy or ideology to live your life by.

Maybe Im just crazy but it would seem to me that Satanism and occultism in general are concerned, at least in part with enforcing ones will, enforcing ones choices, and the acceptance of the consequences of those choices, what ever they may be. In my opinion that will to power or power of choice should include a persons right to choose abortion or not.

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#76014 - 04/17/13 08:18 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Cassandra Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: Temple, Texas
With the Satanic Rules of the Earth, I would think it applies to children and animals--excluding fetuses--because they have the brain/mind capacity to be aware of pain and abuse, and therefore are imprinted and deeply affected by pain and abuse.

I think whether or not a fetus feels pain is irrelevant. It has not lived yet (if it possibly would--miscarriages are so common, especially during the first 12 weeks or so), whereas an animal and/or a child has been alive for a while, has that awareness, is its own entity.


Edited by Cassandra (04/17/13 08:19 AM)
Edit Reason: punctuation correction

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#76017 - 04/17/13 09:32 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Cassandra]
Ken Barrett Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 29
Loc: Devil's Hole, USA
Life is continous, an un-ending circle, there is no such thing as a 'un-life state' for living entities, children should be protected at conception (do not harm children), considering that all living creatures has one chance at life (no after-life), abortion should be outlawed. My generation (generation X) was decimated by the pill and abortion startin' in 1960 and 1970 respectively. All those great minds, scientist, artist, musicians, buissness men/women, never having a chance to be known ... no wonder a certain racial demographic is now a minoritiy, With all those baby-boomers generation X should of been a huge population rivaling the baby-boom. The act was all for the baby-boomers parents sexual amusement and the gen-x infant is later killed.

As the demon says in the 1974 movie Beyond The Door, "It was all for my amusement, even this infant! (cuts to next scene of dead baby on floor)"
_________________________
"We Are All Just Blades Of Grass. -Burt Munro"

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#76018 - 04/17/13 09:57 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Ken Barrett]
Cassandra Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: Temple, Texas
I never said anything about a fetus being in an 'un-life state', just that it is not aware. Besides, a bacterium is a living entity--shall we all stop taking antibiotics and quit using bleach, to prevent cutting this circle of life?

I do get where you are coming from--a fetus has the potential to become a full-blown human being. Certainly it may have the chance to become a great scientist, artist, et cetera..., or it might become the next Ted Bundy or Ottis Toole. It could be healthy, or it could have some genetic mutation.

I find it interesting that a man should say something like this. What about rape, incest? Not all unwanted pregnancies are just results from wanton behavior.

I personally would never get an abortion, but I think women should have the right, during early pregnancy.

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#76020 - 04/17/13 10:49 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Cassandra]
Modesty Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 17
Loc: Arkansas
I had to have an abortion for medical reasons in 2006. Not a fun procedure and it is mentally and emotionally wearing. Each woman suffers different circumstances, therefore she should be able to fully decide on her own whether or not an abortion is the right choice. There is no doing it all over again, but I wish I could have had it.
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#76022 - 04/17/13 10:53 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Modesty Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 17
Loc: Arkansas

[/quote]


Isn't the government ALL about moral issues? Like "don't murder" or "don't steal" etc?

[/quote]


That sounds like Christianity to me because the Government DOES murder and steal.


Edited by Modesty (04/17/13 10:54 AM)

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#76024 - 04/17/13 02:22 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 921
Loc: Nashville
 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
 Originally Posted By: William Wright

It could be argued that in Satanism, as an official position, the taking of life could be “condoned” if it’s what the Satanist wanted.

What about the 11 Satanic Rules of Earth? Do they mean nothing even to a Satanist?


 Quote:
It all comes down to that, doesn’t it: Where does life begin? For those who think life begins at conception, abortion is murder. For those who think life begins at birth, abortion is simply a medical procedure. Although I happen to side with the former, I must admit that a plausible argument could be made for the latter. Therefore, I reluctantly find myself siding with the “choicers.” Bottom line: If you’re against abortion, don’t put yourself in a position where abortion becomes a viable option.

Well it's clearly a human life at conception because of the DNA it contains. The question of whether it's "ok" or not to kill it is probably based in its ability to feel pain, just as it's ethical to euthanize people who are brain death in a coma.


I don’t think LaVey ever intended for his Eleven Rules, or anything else in TSB, to be the final say with regard to Satanism. I think he was more interested in starting or broadening discussions than ending them with doctrinal “my way or the highway” pronouncements so common in organized RHP religions. Anyway, if Satanism is not about following others (THY will be done) but about living life on one’s own terms (MY will be done), then whether others condone a Satanist’s actions is beside the point.

You’re right about fetuses being alive. The question, then, isn’t where does life begin but should fetuses be entitled to the same legal protections as babies. Pro-lifers and pro-choicers will be debating that question until the world ends.

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#76025 - 04/17/13 02:34 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Ken Barrett]
Conchis Offline
member


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 207
Loc: us
 Originally Posted By: Ken Barrett
All those great minds, scientist, artist, musicians, business men/women, never having a chance to be known ...

It seems that you are putting a large amount of emphasis on traits that exist only in the possible future. Do you believe that future events actually exist in reality even though it is impossible to prove or disprove the literal existence of that future?

For anyone interested in the philosophy of time I recommend checking out the following videos, which discuss some of the modern points of view concerning the existence or non existence of past and future events.

The Philosophy of Time

A Negative Hippopotamus

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
You’re right about fetuses being alive. The question, then, isn’t where does life begin but should fetuses be entitled to the same legal protections as babies. Pro-lifers and pro-choicers will be debating that question until the world ends.

I would have to agree with you on this point.


Edited by Conchis (04/17/13 02:37 PM)

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#76026 - 04/17/13 04:02 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2511
Does someone having an abortion affect you? Then don't worry about it. Not a fan of abortion? Don't have one. Pretty simple stuff.

As far as the whole "do not harm little children" thing goes, I'm pretty sure that was just thrown in there as a preemptive measure. Going public with something called "Satanism" was sure to make more than a few folks uncomfortable so Anton probably figured it behooved him to state the obvious.

And a fetus is not a child, it is a basically an arrangement of cells incapable of sustaining its own existence, it's essentially a part of the woman carrying it. If she wants the parasitic growth removed, that's her right. Anything else is just meddling.
_________________________
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#76030 - 04/17/13 06:45 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
Does someone having an abortion affect you? Then don't worry about it. Not a fan of abortion? Don't have one. Pretty simple stuff.


Abortion effect the future greatly! The smallest choices always do. Imagine if your father had decided to have a difference dinner with your mother before having sex with her. It could have been a totally different sperm cell that got into her egg and created "you". You would be a totally different person.

What if I could have had a brother or sister that was aborted? That would effect my life in so many ways. What if there was the perfect mate for me out there but they were aborted before they had the chance to be born all those years ago?

We never know how abortion will effect the world. Sure they could be the next Hitler but they could also be the next great person too.

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#76031 - 04/17/13 07:37 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2511
I didn't ask how the future was effected, I asked if a person having an abortion affects you. It doesn't. If another sperm fertilized the egg I was born from it's not that I would be a different person, I wouldn't be a person at all. The rest of your points were equally as silly and nonsensical.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#76032 - 04/17/13 08:09 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
The fact that it effects the future means that it does effect me. And hence the quotes around the word "you". What if the person who was able to cure AIDS was aborted? That's not silly and nonsensical. I think you're just not realizing the implications.
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#76033 - 04/17/13 08:42 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
FemaleSatan Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 556
Loc: The Dirty South
 Quote:
Abortion effect the future greatly! The smallest choices always do. Imagine if your father had decided to have a difference dinner with your mother before having sex with her. It could have been a totally different sperm cell that got into her egg and created "you". You would be a totally different person.

What if I could have had a brother or sister that was aborted? That would effect my life in so many ways. What if there was the perfect mate for me out there but they were aborted before they had the chance to be born all those years ago?


What if I woke up and the moon was actually made of cheese?

What would happen if the Earth got two moons?

Come on now, you're doing the same exact thing. The fact that a fetus coulda/shoulda/woulda been something or another is not a logical argument here.

I have a question for you since you keep on quoting LaVey as a reasoning for your anti-abortion stance.


What about responsibility to the responsible?

I am of the opinion that people should only have children if they can take care of them physically, emotionally, financially, etc. Otherwise they are hoisting their responsibility on to others.

The human population isn't in any danger of dying out due to a lack of breeding.

Every single reasoning you have given for being Anti-Abortion I can find in a fundie pamphlet.


Edited by FemaleSatan (04/17/13 08:43 PM)
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#76036 - 04/17/13 10:46 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Conchis Offline
member


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 207
Loc: us
 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
We never know how abortion will effect the world. Sure they could be the next Hitler but they could also be the next great person too.

Exactly, you do not and can not know the outcome. Justifying ones argument on a negative set of data is tricky business. Should I become an xtian and start worshiping god just in case heaven and hell actually do exist? The argument you are currently making is highly indefensible, if you don't understand why then watch the above posted video entitled A Negative Hippopotamus

 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
The fact that it effects the future means that it does effect me. And hence the quotes around the word "you". What if the person who was able to cure AIDS was aborted? That's not silly and nonsensical. I think you're just not realizing the implications.

This is also an argument based on negative data. That's pretty weak sauce as far as an argument for no choice goes. Sure the aborted fetus could have cured AIDS, and maybe if you have AIDS that would be benificial to you, but that fetus could have done an infinite number of unbenificial things to you as well like.

-Fart in your spaghetti.
-Murder your family.
-Mug you in an ally.
-Ad nauseum.

But do not fear this seemingly infinite number of random events caused by said fetus could also be quite beneficial. The point is you do not know and you can not know. Aside from all of that, even if the above mentioned aids curing, spaghetti farting fetus was aborted... well.. its awful hard to miss what you never had in the first place.


Edited by Conchis (04/17/13 10:59 PM)

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