Page 3 of 8 <12345>Last »
Topic Options
#76044 - 04/18/13 12:24 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
The implication is that you have no clue how to formulate a logical argument.your "what if" scenarios are garbage and do nothing to support the idea that abortion is not a viable option. Get back to me after you've studied critical thinking.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#76048 - 04/18/13 01:55 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Conchis Offline
member


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 207
Loc: us
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
The implication is that you have no clue how to formulate a logical argument.your "what if" scenarios are garbage and do nothing to support the idea that abortion is not a viable option. Get back to me after you've studied critical thinking.

My sentiments exactly. I have no problem entertaining a well reasoned argument if said argument is in fact well reasoned. Basing your arguments on "what if's" certainly do not fall into the category of "well reasoned" in my mind. "Poison" I would suggest using the 600 clubs search-o-tronic and find some of our threads regarding critical thinking and open mindedness and share with us your thoughts on these topics.


Edited by Conchis (04/18/13 01:56 PM)

Top
#76050 - 04/18/13 03:05 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Conchis]
XiaoGui17 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1346
Loc: Austin, TX
Cassandra, your response to Ken Barrett pretty much sums up my reaction. If he values "living entities" so much, what the hell does he eat? Does he photosynthesize?

As for Poison's "DNA" argument, that's total weak sauce. What's so special about human DNA? Why is it so much more precious than dolphin DNA or mushroom DNA or amoeba DNA?

And Ken Barrett's opposed to the pill? He thinks a woman getting her freaking period is murdering a child? What does he want, then, every girl to start having compulsory sex at 11 to make sure no eggs are wasted?

 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
We never know how abortion will effect the world. Sure they could be the next Hitler but they could also be the next great person too.

You can't just say "Well, what if..." because then anything could happen, and you have no course of action whatsoever. "Don't get an abortion, it could be Einstein" could just as easily be countered with, "Definitely get an abortion, it could be Hitler."

You have to look at the odds. An unwanted child is more likely to grow up to be a violent criminal. Google "Steven Levitt." Think about it: an unwanted child is more likely to be abused. A child that wasn't planned for is more likely to grow up in poverty. All of this increases the likelihood of crime.

Even if the kid is an upstanding citizen himself, the child is still more likely to be born addicted to crack, infected with AIDS, and to parents that cannot provide for him. So then, he's sucking up Medicaid, WIC, TANF, etc., with a much lower likelihood of even making it to adulthood to become productive.

So if you think about how it affects everyone, it's in everyone's best interest to make sure that every woman who wants an abortion gets one.


Edited by XiaoGui17 (04/18/13 04:03 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#76051 - 04/18/13 04:00 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: William Wright]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
For your consideration...

Followers of the LHP need not concern themselves with the laws of man. It is only of concern in as much as man's law may inconvenience the practitioner directly.

Man's law is a bit confused. On the one hand, if a pregnant woman is murdered, the State will often levy the charge for two murders. Many state courts have found that a pregnant woman can travel in the HOV lane as, in fact, the car does contain two actual people. On the other hand, abortion remains legal. So which is it?

The horrible possibility that keeps the White Light Secular Humanists up at night, is the notion that both things might be true. That a unique individual human live DOES begin at conception AND that it is perfectly legal to kill that particular human.

Infanticide is quite common in the animal world and man is an animal like any other.

To the Practitioner I would offer you the long held sage advice - "do what thou will shall be the whole of the law."
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#76054 - 04/18/13 04:57 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2118
Loc: Poland
This:
 Quote:
I don't mind flushing out embryos as a common practice.

and this:
 Quote:
What if the person who was able to cure AIDS was aborted?

So you don't mind destroying embryos. What if one of these destroyed embryos could develop into a person who was able to cure AIDS? With every embryo that we dispose of, a potential human life is wasted. It could be a great scientist, an artist and so on.

More, this one:
 Quote:
Well it's clearly a human life at conception because of the DNA it contains.

An embryo contains the DNA of the future person. What do you think about masturbation and coitus interruptus? Should we worry about the fact that so much of the human DNA is wasted? Just think about it. This is why some churches, including the Catholic Church, are so much against wasting your precious body fluids. Every drop of your sperm could participate in the creation of a potential child. And that kid could be another Einstein.

 Quote:
The question of whether it's "ok" or not to kill it is probably based in its ability to feel pain, just as it's ethical to euthanize people who are brain death in a coma.

So it should also be OK to kill people if you first anesthetize them. It is ethical to kill everybody as long as they do not feel pain.
According to your reasoning, you can kill an embryo, a fetus until the third trimester, an anesthetized person and a person in the coma, because they are unable to feel pain.

 Quote:
Personally I don't see rape as a reason to justify abortion.

Here, you sound like a typical Christian fundie. I would take you for one if you were not so damn inconsistent. As your reasoning does not make any sense, I think you are just fooling around. ;\)


Edited by Czereda (04/18/13 04:59 PM)
_________________________
Anna Czereda
Crazy Cat Lady

Top
#76055 - 04/18/13 08:45 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Fist]
XiaoGui17 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1346
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Man's law is a bit confused. On the one hand, if a pregnant woman is murdered, the State will often levy the charge for two murders. Many state courts have found that a pregnant woman can travel in the HOV lane as, in fact, the car does contain two actual people. On the other hand, abortion remains legal. So which is it?

Treating a body as property may fix this discrepancy. Consider personhood to be "fee simple in one's own body." The property-body exists at conception. The born are persons: freeholders of their bodies. The unborn, unascertained persons, cannot yet own themselves.

Conception creates a "gestational estate" in the fetus, held by the mother, granted by the father. This is similar to a life estate, terminating upon birth instead of death. The fetus has an exclusive contingent "remainder" in itself. If the fetus is not born alive, this interest fails, and ownership of the fetus reverts to the father. If born alive, the baby takes ownership of him/herself.

Thus, if we treated murder as a crime against a body-as-property, killing a non-person fetus would still be murder--if done without the owner-mother's consent. Paternal consent would not be necessary, since the mere possibility of reverter is only a fallback in the event that a remainder fails: the grantor has implicitly relinquished his interest.

It's iffy whether a contingent remainderman has standing to sue for waste, since his interest is pretty fuzzy. But a fetus is the only possible remainderman, and once born live, (s)he definitely gains self-ownership. So I think a live-born child could have an action against a mother for waste, represented by a guardian ad litem, if born with a narcotic addiction, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, etc.

This way, a mother would retain the right to terminate a pregnancy, since it would inevitably lead to the failure of the contingent remainder. In fact, a mother would be strongly encouraged to abort a fetus damaged by her own negligence, to avoid liability. She would also be deterred from negligence if she wanted to carry to term. Thus, this view could potentially create an incentive for fit maternity.
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#76057 - 04/19/13 08:14 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
The body as property argument is the most compelling I have seen to date and in a highly legalistic society, it is easiest to promote and the most logical.

I would advance, promote, and amplify this argument. The American system is based on fundamental rights to property. The body as property advances society on several fronts such as the right to die, and the right to use drugs. It would further strengthen property rights in general.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#76062 - 04/19/13 12:05 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Conchis]
Ken Barrett Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 29
Loc: Devil's Hole, USA
 Originally Posted By: Conchis
 Originally Posted By: Ken Barrett
All those great minds, scientist, artist, musicians, business men/women, never having a chance to be known ...

It seems that you are putting a large amount of emphasis on traits that exist only in the possible future. Do you believe that future events actually exist in reality even though it is impossible to prove or disprove the literal existence of that future?

For anyone interested in the philosophy of time I recommend checking out the following videos, which discuss some of the modern points of view concerning the existence or non existence of past and future events.

The Philosophy of Time

A Negative Hippopotamus



Time doesn't exist, it's all in the mind, its all just movement-- things going to and fro. Yet, Sting theory has hinted that alternate universe could exist side byside. Could it be possible that alter paths travel along what we call the present.

Interesting links.
_________________________
"We Are All Just Blades Of Grass. -Burt Munro"

Top
#76067 - 04/19/13 06:30 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Czereda]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: Czereda

So you don't mind destroying embryos. What if one of these destroyed embryos could develop into a person who was able to cure AIDS? With every embryo that we dispose of, a potential human life is wasted. It could be a great scientist, an artist and so on.

I can see how this seems contradictory but I was merely saying that abortion does have an effect on the world so it should be a decision made with a lot of thought put into it.



 Quote:
An embryo contains the DNA of the future person. What do you think about masturbation and coitus interruptus? Should we worry about the fact that so much of the human DNA is wasted? Just think about it. This is why some churches, including the Catholic Church, are so much against wasting your precious body fluids. Every drop of your sperm could participate in the creation of a potential child. And that kid could be another Einstein.

No, sperm and egg cells don't contain the DNA of a full human. They are only haploids so it wouldn't make sense for them to have any degree of human rights.



 Quote:
So it should also be OK to kill people if you first anesthetize them. It is ethical to kill everybody as long as they do not feel pain.
According to your reasoning, you can kill an embryo, a fetus until the third trimester, an anesthetized person and a person in the coma, because they are unable to feel pain.

A fetus with no brain and a brain dead person in a coma have no will to do anything. They're essentially non-persons at that point. The difference between an anesthetized person and a person without a functional brain is obvious.


 Quote:
Here, you sound like a typical Christian fundie. I would take you for one if you were not so damn inconsistent. As your reasoning does not make any sense, I think you are just fooling around. ;\)

I'm just saying I personally wouldn't get an abortion because of rape.

Top
#76069 - 04/19/13 09:57 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
XiaoGui17 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1346
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
I can see how this seems contradictory but I was merely saying that abortion does have an effect on the world so it should be a decision made with a lot of thought put into it.

The decision to have a child also has an effect on the world. Yet a lot of people do it because of hormones, accident, reflexive religious doctrine, idealism, to get the boyfriend to stay with them, etc. I've shown you that, statistically, abortion has an overall positive effect on the world. So really, if we think hard about it, women should have more abortions.

 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
I'm just saying I personally wouldn't get an abortion because of rape.

It's real easy to say that until you're actually in that situation. Roughly a third of the women who had abortions that I knew were virulently pro-life until they got knocked up.
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#76070 - 04/19/13 10:15 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
PoisonDrinkMe Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 17
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17

The decision to have a child also has an effect on the world. Yet a lot of people do it because of hormones, accident, reflexive religious doctrine, idealism, to get the boyfriend to stay with them, etc. I've shown you that, statistically, abortion has an overall positive effect on the world. So really, if we think hard about it, women should have more abortions.

Have more abortions or just have themselves sterilized to start with?

 Quote:
It's real easy to say that until you're actually in that situation. Roughly a third of the women who had abortions that I knew were virulently pro-life until they got knocked up.

1 in 6 women are raped within their lifetime. Don't assume I'm not one of them.

Top
#76071 - 04/20/13 02:28 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3385
[quick reply]

The problem with pro-life movement is it being another weak attempt to institutionalize or having the governments meddle into personal affairs. There is not much more to it.

Despite leaving a sour taste in the mouth, for the reason it complies towards ownership and strengthens the idea everything must and shall be seen as a good instead of an irrevocable right, the body as property-argument is indeed the most compelling and sane one.

I tip my hat to Fist for voicing my thoughts exactly.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#76073 - 04/20/13 04:02 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Fist]
XiaoGui17 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1346
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Fist
The American system is based on fundamental rights to property. The body as property advances society on several fronts such as the right to die, and the right to use drugs. It would further strengthen property rights in general.

Thanks, I like to think so. It fits in snugly with John Locke's labor theory of property--the idea that we have a right of ownership in the fruits of our labor. If a body is property, the fruits of a man's labor are his under the fructus property right. It could also enable people to sell their organs or genes.

Because many think of the human body as something "sacred," the idea of a body as property comes across as relatively crass, conjuring up images of prostitution, cannibalism, and slavery. Courts have thus far shied away from recognizing property interests or contracts related to the human body. While it could potentially fit neatly in to our system in theory, it would entail a dramatic reworking of where the law currently stands.

 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
1 in 6 women are raped within their lifetime. Don't assume I'm not one of them.

Want a cookie? Swap your pro-life martyrdom stories with Sarah Palin.

 Originally Posted By: PoisonDrinkMe
Have more abortions or just have themselves sterilized to start with?

If you think birth control or sterilization is a superior choice to abortion, how about you go promote birth control or sterilization, instead of bashing abortion? Do something constructive. You'll catch more bees with honey.
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#76434 - 05/18/13 01:51 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I consider Satanism a religion that is fairly concerned with justice and not harming those that are unable to protect themselves such as children and animals (rules 9 and 10 of the 11 Satanic rules of Earth) but does this extend to the unborn?


Ok, so we have a jump-off point for how you Consider Satanism.

For me, it's not a religion but merely a method of praxis. Rules are for people that need them and all too often behavior is to the contrary. So these proverbial rule breakers are so attached to the framework of dogma that they can't really see the harm in victimizing themselves. How droll.

Discussing Abortion is like playing Russian Roulette. Go ahead, load the chamber, then pull!

Women have been killing off the fruit of their wombs for thousands of years, and certainly don't need a doctor's office to accomplish it, a Law to approve it, or Rules to affirm it. The right blend of herbs and the fetus is poisoned and the body ejects it like waste because that's what it is. In reality this issue really deals in demanding the medical profession handle it in a nice clean and sterile environment. It's all about what 'we' women believe we deserve and are entitled to, right?

Give me my damn Abortion! MOAR Botox! In fact, redesign my whole face to look like cat lady! It's all noise to me, silly human noise. Like birds chirping outside it's all yap, yap, yap!

As far as the concepts of the Holy unborn Fetus, that kind of thinking really stems from an internal Moral Dilemma. You have morals, the next guy has morals and when you don't subscribe to each other's it's all finger-wagging at the amorality. Go ahead, pull the trigger!

It's natural to protect your offspring and property. It's all "MINE!, MINE!, MINE!" I couldn't care less if people use Abortion like birth control, people do a whole lot worse to themselves when they treat their bodies like trash dumps. I couldn't care less if a person wants to breed themselves into Oblivion. Why should I have to pay for that is the question? The government is going to take their share regardless of what we earn, that money is going to where they decide it goes right? To include Social Programs like Welfare/Medicaid in the U.S. All argued on the Legislative floor (Patrician Class) that people rarely pay attention to. It's not their problem, it's someone else's problem, or the problem is too big and complex that they just shove their heads in the sand (poor Plebs!). Every dollar spent is a vote. Click.


The dialogue shared sounds as if you're trying to convince the reader of something, but what? Click.

Rules 9, 10, 11, and beyond! Bang!
_________________________
SINJONES.com

Top
#76456 - 05/19/13 05:41 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: SIN3]
prodigalsun Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 78
Loc: CA, USA
All the political groups and decades of work to keep Pro Choice legal for millions of girls and women if the the choice came down to terminating a pregancy. The topic on Satanism and abortion. Which form of Satanism? If Anton LaVey in stating not to harm little children was including unborn fetuses and the abortion matter. His writings have gone into overpopulation many times, so unplanned or wanted pregnancies, if they are eliminated early on will give the mother part of her freedom back, no child born into economic struggling single parent home, if no co parent exists.
Top
Page 3 of 8 <12345>Last »


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.074 seconds of which 0.054 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.