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#77447 - 06/26/13 04:14 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: prodigalsun]
SIN3 Offline
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Which form? Satanism is Satanism, I create the form.

 Quote:
It's more a case of wanting to know what other Satanists would do and how other Satanists see the issue


Getting back to the OP, what did this Satanist Do?

I took responsibility of my own body. Granted, birth control methods are never 100% guaranteed. I got pregnant on the Pill, while taking Antibiotics. I neglected the fine-print that stated it could render my B.C. useless. So I conceived a child.

Then what? Well, I had a life-altering decision to make. At 20, I had plans but I had to decide if having a baby would factor in. It's also a matter of how you regard your own body and what's going on inside of it (as well as regard a human fetus). The idea that I had choice to terminate the pregnancy was ultimately mine and mine alone. With or without 'legal Abortion' available to me. Having a baby is a life-long commitment, though its not as if you can't just hand it over to someone else if you decide you are ill-equipped. Women sell off their Babies all the time. Some even just sell their eggs, its a profitable endowment.

All those womanly instincts kick in, and I was aware of them. I wasn't going to let them dictate to me what decision I'd make - either way. Ultimately I chose to have a child, *wipes brow* and he'll be 18 in a month.

After the first conception, I made damn sure I didn't get pregnant again and was successful in my efforts. Can't say I've ever needed an Abortion but I wouldn't bat an eye-lash at having one. If people want to run their lives by "Satanists don't harm little children", good luck with that. Harm comes in many forms. It's not just physical assault and murder of children. I see perfectly sane people harming their kids every day, Satanists among them.

A note on Grand-Motherhood:

My son has a serious girl-friend, and naturally they have sex. I've pounded contraception into his head for the better part of a decade. I've also told him that I have no aversion to smashing babies on rocks (like the Greeks). He has plans that don't factor in having a child or a wife at 18. He's joining the Army, already signed up. All he has to do is graduate High School. His girlfriend comes from a very strict Baptist household, so I'm fairly certain the fear of God is in that girl, but shit happens. If they were foolish enough to get pregnant before the end of the next school year, it doesn't really matter what 'I' think of abortion or harming kids. It will be up to Baby Mama at that point. I'll have to contend with becoming a Granny.

My kid has a good head on his shoulders and I've had enough frank talks with his gf to have high hopes for her reasoning and logic. Plus, I think she's absolutely terrified of her parents, that helps.
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#77457 - 06/26/13 11:19 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: SIN3]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
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I tend to roll my eyes when a doctor of pharmacist spells something out to me, but then I read stories like this and realize there are many women who don't have a biologist for a mother and pre-med background.

Every woman I know who's gotten knocked up on the pill took antibiotics, and it's a surprisingly (to me) high number. We really need better sex ed. Good for you for teaching your son both facts and values. Those who claim to have "values" often twist the facts to support their values. (I guess honesty isn't one of their so-called values.) It's quite refreshing to see someone who uses both as mutual support for one another.

I also got knocked up at 20. I didn't experience birth control failure. I was just impulsive. My boyfriend used coitus interruptus (a bad method), and I didn't want to ruin the moment by setting him straight. I was young and dumb, but thankfully not too dumb.

Once I realized I was pregnant, I immediately told him. My boyfriend and I instantly agreed that an abortion was what we wanted. I surprised myself a bit with how calm and practical I was when I ended up in that situation. I didn't cry, I didn't panic, I just saw it for what it was and took measures to handle it.

I can't help but think I was damn lucky. I had the awareness to recognize the symptoms early on and take a test at the first opportunity. I was a legal adult who didn't need parental consent. I lived in a major metropolitan area where there were many clinics I could go to. I had the means to afford it on my own. I had a boyfriend who fully supported my decision, and drove me to the clinic and back home afterwards.

Many women aren't as lucky as I was, which is why I try to support and inform them as much as I can. I tell them about private charity abortion vouchers, judicial bypass, avoiding CPCs, etc. If they're frightened or intimidated, share my positive experience and direct them to cites like http://www.imnotsorry.net/ to debunk the fear-mongering about abortion causing emotional trauma.

It's harrowing to hear some of their stories. I've spoken to a raped woman, a 14-year-old in her second trimester, an abused woman whose husband swapped out her pills, and a woman with five children and preeclampsia. It was extremely taxing yet rewarding at the same time to bond with them and change their lives.
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#77468 - 06/27/13 09:17 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Quote:
I tend to roll my eyes when a doctor of pharmacist spells something out to me, but then I read stories like this and realize there are many women who don't have a biologist for a mother and pre-med background.


At 20, looking back on it, I didn't spend a lot of time reading the paperwork that came with every pill set. I had been on B.C. since I was 9.5 to 'regulate'. I chalk it up to normalization and no real interest. Common sense would have served me better. Considering how I did hold knowledge of how Anti-biotics work, I just failed to employ sense in that instance. When your young, you make mistakes and its all part of the learning curve. For a time I had considered the possibility of sterilization through age and long-term use. My menstruation cycle was 'normal' back then, the reality is I was put on the pill to satisfy my Mother's paranoia about teen-pregnancy. I really didn't have a choice in the matter back then.

Any personal research I conducted when it become a real-concern reaped conflicting answers to my questions. Speaking to doctors on a personal level, always seemed to provide answers through a filter because of my age.

All the trials and tribulations of Birth-Control over the years, I could write a treatise. Post-baby, I went on Depo. The Nurse had been giving me the shot in the arm for about 2 years, until I changed Doctors. Like usual I had rolled up my sleeve for the shot, and the new Nurse gasped. She then went on to explain to me the detriment of getting a shot in muscle tissue vs. fatty tissue (such as my hip). I had read into all the possible side-effects and dangers of Depo-Provera, but I hadn't encountered any warnings about the site where the shot had been given, until that point. I went on to research it further, and most medical advisements claim that the shot should be given in the muscle-tissue vs. fatty tissue. So again, conflicting information. It was just that one shot but I had to confirm with yet another doctor that it wouldn't affect the effectiveness, since the shot was given every (3) months. I had more complications from Depo than I did with any other method, so I'd eventually change to the Nuva Ring. I liked that more than any other method I had used. The hormones were light vs. the pill. I had no real side-effects from it. After 35, I went off birth-control all together due to medical history, being a smoker and age. Condoms work well enough, and no hormonal interference. A friend of mine (close in age) nearly dropped dead at work from a blood-clot, puts it into perspective. There's conflicting medical reports about Birth-control after Age 35 too. Go figure.


Edited by SIN3 (06/27/13 09:18 AM)
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#77513 - 06/28/13 11:17 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: SIN3]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1361
Loc: Austin, TX
I've tried so many methods. Spermicidal suppositories, films, jellies, and foams irritated my crotch and caused multiple cases of yeast infections and bacterial vaginosis. My irregular sleep schedule (I pull a lot of work and academic all-nighters out of necessity) made taking the pill at the same time each day impractical. The patch kept peeling off my skin due to sweat and showering. I have a very small and muscular vagina, which kept ejecting the NuvaRing and any diaphragm I tried (despite me getting the smallest size available), and kept sucking condoms off my partners. My super-cooch actually sucked the condom off my boyfriend when I lost my virginity, which was panic-inducing, but fortunately didn't cause any problems.

There are only two methods I didn't try. Given how tough I have found it to keep doctors' appointments in general, I doubted Depo Provera would be a good idea for me. I depend on unreliable Austin buses for transportation and often have on-demand work schedules, so I end up canceling about 50% of my doctors' appointments due to sheer logistics issues. Plus, after multiple negative reactions, I generally wanted to get off hormones, so I only considered the extremely expensive Implanon briefly.

I have a ParaGard (copper IUD), now. It's hormone-free, super effective, and lasts for up to a dozen years. I've had no side effects. My gyno warned me that the insertion would hurt like a mofo and make my periods heavier. For me, the insertion was no worse than a really bad menstrual cramp, and it's practically impossible that my vomit-inducing periods could get any worse. My gyno was impressed by how easily I handled insertion, since many women passed out or shrieked in agony. I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made. After years of trial and error, I found my perfect BC match.
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#77523 - 06/29/13 06:32 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
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Reminds me of the 80's trends of BC, it seemed to be the era of the Jams and Jellies. Go Super Vagina! Good for you, so many women complain about the IUD that it didn't sound too appealing to me. Your post made me laugh. I swear, we need a Vagina Monologues thread, after this! \:\)

Edited by SIN3 (06/29/13 06:33 AM)
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#77532 - 06/29/13 02:40 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
The issue at the core of the whole abortion brouhaha has to do with the significance of the phenomenon of human life [one could argue any life]. It's either just another routine natural/chemical action, like fire, or it's something special, outside of nature, and should be sanctified accordingly.

If life is merely another chemical reaction, then there is no reason to have any special punishments for murder [after birth] beyond social prohibitions like arson and burglary. And of course the entire concept of metaphysics goes out the window too. Reciprocally, if you're an Atheist, your regard for humans in the general and particular is no more than for a tree or a sheep, and any special affection or protectiveness concerning someone is no different than that for your cat or dog.

So the question is: When a life-phenomenon begins, presumably at the moment a sperm and egg click, is there anything more to it than just that? Does something beyond and alien to "just them" come into existence as well? If so, then questions about abortion and post-birth murder have that metaphysical dimension to them: You're not just tossing water on a fire to put it out. You're making a divine decision to undo another divine decision.

What we've seen in social practice are efforts to get this somewhat intimidating notion off the table. Soldiers are conditioned to kill the enemy without it disturbing them; this is the mission of the entire Corps of Chaplains. Nation/states kill people individually or en masse as a "right of sovereignty". To all of the above, human life is therefore "just another fire".

Why should murder on the private scale also not be "just another fire"? Because of the political power of conventional religion, which uses life/death as its principal control mechanism. Also because of simple human sentiment and affection for friends and relatives; we want them specially protected against being "put out".

Note that if "abortion" occurs on a nation/state level, e.g. the killing of a pregnant woman in an artillery bombardment or drone strike, it's completely incidental to the death of the woman herself. It's only on the subgovernment, individual level, that it becomes an issue.

For most legal reasons: inheritance, family responsibility, etc., "life" begins at live birth. Before then a fœtus is just a sort of tumor. So if you start moving "life" back before live-birth, logically all the other stuff should move back with it. A pregnant woman of any trimester should count for two [at least] on any census, qualify for multiperson discounts, tax filings, etc.

Alternately, if society decrees that "life" officially begins at live-birth, then abortion at any pre-birth time is no different than squeezing a zit.

What you see now is society trying to have it both ways for competing reasons of control, superstition, economics, and convenience. Above all it will not come to grips with the single, overriding determinant of "fire or not".

This determinant also preempts the sub-debate over whether abortion is a woman's decision because she's the pregnant one. If a fœtus is a zit, then sure, it's just an aberration of her body. If it's something metaphysical in its own right, beyond her and the father, then neither she nor he can extinguish it without making a divine decision. Can they? Of course: The ability to make dicine decisions is what makes human life self-conscious. [Setians call it the Gift of Set.] It does make things more complicated.
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#77533 - 06/29/13 03:00 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
then abortion at any pre-birth time is no different than squeezing a zit.


Hilarious. Kermit Gosnell presumably regarded it as such, though his persecutors found his practices beyond the scope of decency. One could argue that his clinic was a shop of horrors unto itself due (even without the fetuses on tap) to the lack of inspection, poor conditions and incapable staff.

None-the-less, the local community he served (minus the complaints) regarded him as highly respectable, capable, and a Godsend.

The babyfeet in jars, bagged fetuses in the freezer and blood on the walls was a nice touch. I don't think the public conscience will fully recover from it. In our lifetime? The fetus will continue to be regarded as the holiest of holy. With added Legislation to protect it to boot. Gosnell and Associates were the proverbial coffin nail for this century.
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#77540 - 06/29/13 06:16 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: SIN3]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
One could argue that his clinic was a shop of horrors unto itself due (even without the fetuses on tap) to the lack of inspection, poor conditions and incapable staff.

Indeed. The fact that Karnamaya Mongar died at Gosnell's hands, and that many other patients reported being severely injured and hospitalized, is really the clincher for me.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
None-the-less, the local community he served (minus the complaints) regarded him as highly respectable, capable, and a Godsend.

I think of Gosnell like the drug cartel someone pays to smuggle them across the border from Mexico to the US. When any legal option is cut off like a door slamming in someone's face and they're desperate enough, they'll work with whoever will do the job and don't bite the hand that feeds. In a way, it's a sad sign of how fucked it was that these women had to resort to going to someone like Gosnell in the first place.
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#77541 - 06/29/13 06:34 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
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I remain skeptical of that, in truth. Chances are if they chose Gosnell, they had their reasons. In some of the cases where the women claimed they were lied to about the weeks gestation, rather easy to do that now after he's been demonized, isn't it?

Even if some of these women were in poverty, he certainly didn't provide services for free. If he catered to illegals, well... It all goes back to that illegal immigration issue doesn't it?

He reminds me of a hood doctor. They are rather common in inner-cities with a high-population of low-income citizens. They are usually the type that will sell a prescription for a few bucks, as a way to forge 'street cred' with the locals. Since many of these people are getting meds without having to jump through hoops, they tend to turn a blind-eye to illegal activity and even guard them like a member of the family.



Edited by SIN3 (06/29/13 06:35 PM)
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#77545 - 06/29/13 07:43 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: SIN3]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1361
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Even if some of these women were in poverty, he certainly didn't provide services for free.

Not for free, but for way less than it would have cost otherwise, hence the unsanitary conditions. A pregnancy is a financial time-bomb for someone who wants to abort: it costs around a few hundred dollars early on and then increases exponentially afterwards to the price of a new car. When I assigned vouchers for abortions, it was all to common too see a woman that had just saved up enough to get a first trimester abortion, only to be well into her second trimester by the time she got had enough. Many can't keep up.

Gosnell was charging roughly 10% what a third trimester abortion costs: not free, but a huge discount. Of course, they got what they paid for.

There's also the fact that, even if the cost of the procedure isn't an issue, finding a doctor in the area that will do it often is. It's basically asking for the religious right to put a fatwa (for lack of a better term) on his head.
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#77561 - 06/30/13 12:59 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
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In the late 80's a school-mate was pregnant at 16, she didn't want to go it alone (or for her parents to find out) so I went with her. She was a kid with a part-time job. She saved money, and made payments to the abortion clinic. She had to have her last payment on the day of the abortion or they wouldn't perform the procedure. Back then it cost a little under $300 for a first-trimester Abortion.

A lot of these clinics (especially Planned Parenthood) will work with low-income patients, often discounting services based on income. This includes prescriptions and bi-annual exams.

The Gosnell case isn't really about abortion or the accessibility of it to poverish women. The case has layer after layer of socio-economic and political issues woven through it. His background and his chosen target market, show that he was an opportunist taking advantage of the current for his own ends.

We see how that all panned out for him, and it just added fuel to the fire for Women's Health Legislation. Thanks to this case, the government is now more-involved than ever. The big hoo-rah in the form of SB-732/SB-100/SB-574. To of course include a laundry-list of fees paid to the State. The result for women living in Pennsylvania, could include a number of clinics closing which limits access. Granted, if these clinics are sub-par its for the protection of women's health but like any bureaucratic red-tape issue, it may not be warranted.

Government handling of this 'clinic' has been foul from the get-go, they only busted up the joint by accident, the original raid was for a drug-trafficking accusation. Never-mind the previous violations that were reported but no real follow-up was performed. PA's best kept secret. To correct the err for the public satisfaction it will now be on the polar opposite extreme end which will end up closing up shops to set an example.
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#77588 - 06/30/13 07:30 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: PoisonDrinkMe]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Simple...

Don't like abortion, don't have one.

How you feel about it has no bearing on whether someone else should use it.

Abortion is not new, what is new is the relative medically safe way it can be done. If it gets outlawed, it will still happen.

M
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#77772 - 07/04/13 09:00 AM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
State impact of the Gosnell case...I've been watching the Texas Bill coverage, what are your thoughts about the Bill's passing?

Donna Campbell spoke on the floor to Women's Health concerns.

The GOP quickly pushed the Bill through ( H.B. - 2) the second time after it didn't meet the deadline ( Texas Bill SB-5). The process of passing Bills is under scrutiny but it doesn't appear to prevent the curtailing of the process, See: (Coverage).



Edited by SIN3 (07/04/13 09:04 AM)
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#77784 - 07/05/13 04:27 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Governor Perry seems to have some latitude to call another special session under Texas law. He must really want this one. That was an epic filibuster by Wendy Davis . Looks like a possible Gubernatorial run. She has become quite the media darling.
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#77785 - 07/05/13 10:48 PM Re: Satanists and Abortion [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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She stood for over 10 hours and didn't even pee! All for a delay. All they had to do was mirror the Bill and kick it through. At best she's a punchline.

I think people just admire her dedication. On the Conservative side there's a seething hatred for that woman.
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