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#7918 - 04/18/08 05:24 PM watcher sacrifices?
king in yellow Offline
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Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 7
I've been performing rites from the necronomicon without a watcher for a couple months, but am moving into deeper territory, so I find it necessary to procure a watcher. As far as I can tell you do the sacrifice every moon, but can you just do it before each ritual instead? The sacrifices are hard to come by so I don't want to do it too often, but I don't want to forget and ,well , die. What do you suggest?
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#7920 - 04/18/08 06:33 PM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: king in yellow]
rob_church Offline
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Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 194
Loc: alberta , canada
i suggest that you find a better source then the necronomicon. did you melt all your jewlery into a dagger like the mad arab suggested? really just know the principles, you can do a ritual naked in the bathtub or you can do it on a full moon in all the gear, the props are just their to solidify your belief as some people need dogma and structure .here an idea make up your own rituals.remember words only have as much power as you give them. so why are you giving some eles words more power then your own?
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#7925 - 04/18/08 07:52 PM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: rob_church]
Mercury_Templar Offline
93 93/93
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Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
Rob is partially right – that book, as far as I am concerned, is only really for entertainment purposes. The current that stems from that publication is weak and corrupt. Why not try some Renaissance, Post Victorian or Modern ritual in the vein of the Western Mystery Tradition, by some reputable Magickians, instead.

M.'.T.'.
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#7964 - 04/19/08 04:40 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: king in yellow]
rubaestellae Offline
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Registered: 03/13/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Australia
Change the type of sacrifice you use. You should be able to easily tell whether they are accepted or not.
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#7965 - 04/19/08 05:02 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: Mercury_Templar]
Xutech Offline
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Registered: 03/18/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Australia
I found the workings to be both useful and workable.

The book needs a lot of tme to make usable, and when you get caught short at certain points you need to fill in the gaps. I would advise quite some time spent in preparation, including preparing your golf bag for all possible circumstances.

You need to not only work from the book, but also need to apply work from other sources and persuations.

The Watcher is not necessary if you are capable of making something else to a similar purpose.

I personally prefer to use something like an elemental or ushapti for protection, and used to use a necromantic figure in the manner suggested by Leilah Wendel. Any kind of moppet or puppet given life will do, and with a few applied seals can prove more than usable for the purpose. Make them by your own hand, of course. When you and others get a weird feeling even looking at it, "it's on".

Since so many forms of banishing and solar forms do not work, you are better off with a battery of charms and sacrifices, including the aforementioned poppet. The thing to understand is that since you cannot effectively protect yourself, you simply need enough wards and charms and sacrifices to act as "fuses" to give you enough time to get your work done.

The other strategy I have heard and then tested is to partially "infect" yourself with the essence of the place. This allows you to partially blend in with the wildlife and attract less predators. Think of it like hunting. You can either go into the woods in a large four wheeled jeep with headlights blazing and loud music, or you can sneak in in camo and make little noise.

I would recommend that you make a plan on what it is exactly that you want to get out of all this. Then break it up into smaller objectives and prepare ahead of time all the materials so you know you are safe.

As long as you think of it like taking a hiking trip you'll be fine and the challenge will be rewarding. keep a level head and fall back on old skills when you need to.

I'll be happy to discuss in detail or more specifically any part you might like an opinion on. The more ideas the better, right?

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#7994 - 04/19/08 10:03 PM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: king in yellow]
king in yellow Offline
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Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 7
I'm taking advice by using some similar thoughtform and just the pine resin sacrifice which is easiest to acquire. Time is winding down!
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#8582 - 05/10/08 05:05 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: king in yellow]
Necrophillah Offline
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Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 6
I agree that the Necronomicon has some usefulness but needs more to make it whole. I just started a group for it outside of here [The Secret order of Azathoth].

In my personal beliefs, I don't think a watcher is necessary. I believe that one should personalize everything... every rite, ritual, or whatever. I believe to get anything to work for you, you have to personalize it or cater/tailor it to yourself.

Rob_Church is right I think....

I would suggest just taking ideas from the Necronomicon and making your own rituals/rites... that's what I do.

I think the Necronomicon has some great ideas - and I don't take the Gods as being literal... they are symbolic/metaphorical to me.

You've mentioned it and now I'm curious of how things work out in the end.

I've tried some of the spells - but most of the ingredients are hard, if not, impossible to gather. Substitutions are in order.
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#8589 - 05/10/08 09:14 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: Necrophillah]
Xutech Offline
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Registered: 03/18/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Australia
Sorry, I don't understand the point of ritual magic if you think it's not literal.

You may as well take part in any form of pantomime, such as fire twirling or an amateur drama group.

I very strongly think that people who consider that their work is merely a psychodrama are attempting to believe away the possible repercussions of the possibility that such things exist.

Just because you don't believe in something, doesn't make it not capable of affecting you. Just because you dearly wish something to be true, likewise does not make it true.

Television, radiation and pollution function perfectly well in our lives. Woe to those that wish them away.

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#8685 - 05/14/08 08:40 PM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: Xutech]
Kon Offline
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Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Well let's see evidence then Xutech. By all means friend, produce irrefutable subjects and I'll solidly back the validity of your claims.

I've attempted to understand tradition before, the ritual followings of lemmings leave me a bit on the sketchy side.

If rituals and tradition weren't backed up by human will, then the righteous would fall and the loyal be accused, though I believe when it comes to matters of things with this type of resonance the act should never seem too outside of the actors control/persona.

Nobody ever said anything about rituals not being literal.
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#8693 - 05/15/08 04:20 PM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: Kon]
rubaestellae Offline
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Registered: 03/13/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Australia
The nature of any sort of occult work does not lend itself easily to proof outside of the person. I think it's not so much the need for absolute truth for or against the validity of certain workings, but the material brought to the table.

If we were to look to the field of science for example, as they at least try and develop tangible truths, we see basically when they preform experiments they have a hypothesis, the materials and method used, and the results. For any sort of outcome to be accepted as a truth the experiment has to be able to be repeated using the same materials and method producing the same outcome.

If we were to approach an occult ritual using the same principles of truth as a scientific experiment then one of the main materials I believe would have to be the mind of the individual. No two minds are the same so it follows that no occult ritual can be repeated using exactly the same materials for a particular result to be validated by other people.

Unfortunately this is the position that those that do any sort of occult working find themselves in. I think the best thing to do at least in my opinion is to approach a ritual without a prejudice in either direction. That is when doing workings of this nature the best result will be achieved if your idea of truth whatever that may be, be as fluid as possible.

I think perhaps what Xutech was saying was that it seems counterintuitive to approach a certain sort of ritual with a preconceived notion of the outcome. If the sort of suspension of belief required for certain workings is impossible or maybe even undesirable then one would probably get more out of doing a ritual that caters more closely to your individual persuasions.
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#10540 - 08/07/08 01:39 PM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: rubaestellae]
SOLERIFT Offline
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Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Originally Posted By: rubaestellae

If we were to approach an occult ritual using the same principles of truth as a scientific experiment then one of the main materials I believe would have to be the mind of the individual. No two minds are the same so it follows that no occult ritual can be repeated using exactly the same materials for a particular result to be validated by other people.

Unfortunately this is the position that those that do any sort of occult working find themselves in. I think the best thing to do at least in my opinion is to approach a ritual without a prejudice in either direction. That is when doing workings of this nature the best result will be achieved if your idea of truth whatever that may be, be as fluid as possible.

I think perhaps what Xutech was saying was that it seems counterintuitive to approach a certain sort of ritual with a preconceived notion of the outcome. If the sort of suspension of belief required for certain workings is impossible or maybe even undesirable then one would probably get more out of doing a ritual that caters more closely to your individual persuasions.


I certainly have found this approach to be best for myself. I started studying occult when I was in my early teens and like many - I began by reading and practicing/reproducing what I had read, but only after trying my own spontaneous and/or pre meditated designs did I achieve any real results - (this may be off topic because I am not really referring to "watcher sacrifices" but I thought I would throw in my two cents in reply to the last post if permitted.......)

I think this phenomenon might have something to do with the creative aspects of our subconscious being activated by creative mindset utilized in ritual as opposed to mental fixation and repetition - again this is not necessarily true for everyone, and both types of ritual have their purpose, place, and degrees of effectiveness.

all in context I suppose......

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#10605 - 08/11/08 11:03 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: SOLERIFT]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Xutech- I'll have to disagree with you on that one.

I don't believe in the supernatural. I don't believe that you can cast curses or love spells on people, or pray for wealth, or any other such unproven things.

I practice ritual and ceremony for entertainment and psychological purposes, and it's done a great deal of help for me. And that alone gives it value.

If the whole "psychodrama" thing doesn't work for you, then that's fine too.
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#10621 - 08/12/08 03:51 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: SOLERIFT]
rubaestellae Offline
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Registered: 03/13/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Australia
 Originally Posted By: SOLERIFT

I think this phenomenon might have something to do with the creative aspects of our subconscious being activated by creative mindset utilized in ritual as opposed to mental fixation and repetition - again this is not necessarily true for everyone, and both types of ritual have their purpose, place, and degrees of effectiveness.


Ritual is merely an aid to facilitate the subconscious to do what needs to be done. It can be done away with if one has gotten to a point where their subconscious doesn't need to be tricked or jump started into carrying out certain things. I think its only natural that you would progress in your development this way.

It's all about the Will and what you want to do with it.
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#10638 - 08/12/08 04:15 PM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: rubaestellae]
SOLERIFT Offline
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Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Dallas, TX
Using ritual for spell casting and other various effects on others/environment is tricky and there are a lot of variables involved. I personally think that one's energy could be put to better use than attempting pop culture witchcraft, if it helps you gain insight, then great....... The psychodrama aspect of ritual is the first part - clearing yourself of emotional debris to make real magic more realistically attainable.

Saying there is no such thing as real magic - well that's all a matter of perception.... Practicing real "magick" works if you know in your heart that it will - having consciousness of the real principles at play - not least the incredible power of implanted suggestion. True belief in your own ability to perform "magic" is actually a subtlety of the power of suggestion being controlled by the aspirant. Most far fetched stories of hypnosis, trances, hexes, spells, etc... are all tied to the power of suggestion. Not a power to be taken lightly.

Make a person accept their fate as an unconscious inevitability - and in some cases depending on other psychological variables (not least their own self hatred)- that person might just cause their own demise. If that person is of stronger will and lifeforce than yourself, likely no effect will be seen........

I am not advocating petty revenge - but there you have it.......

spellcasters be careful - causality is entangled in "higher spheres" \:\)
I guess the old saying stands true - be careful what you wish for.....

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#11280 - 09/08/08 08:09 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: SOLERIFT]
napalm Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 61
Well me personally magic works best when someone elses ideas are put into it.Like if somones testing you.I think this jump starts my will to want to manifest itself.The stuff I do by myself,is harder.A bullet wont just go off without an external trigger.Thats why alot of magicians use mood altering substances.Or cause themselves pain to trigger a reaction in the mind.A good example of this sort of thing,and a good occult read is in the Nocturnicon.They'll give you a couple of paragraphs to read about acting out in your mind something like a burial,and drawing in the darkness.Which in itsef is a good trigger for any type of Negamancy.The Nocturnicon and Necronomicon are a good mix in my opinion.
As far as Sacrifices to the watcher.If it was a dream or not I don't know but like it says they take that sort of thing seriosly.I doubt that it matters to them what type of incense you use as it is that you show your respects.Pine incense is apropriate,dragons blood is apropriate for all sorts of rituals,and it smells awesome.but I've yet to come across any Oleribose grass.


Edited by napalm (09/08/08 08:57 AM)

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#24965 - 05/25/09 12:54 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: napalm]
lefthanded Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Virginia,Us
 Originally Posted By: napalm
Well me personally magic works best when someone elses ideas are put into it.Like if somones testing you.I think this jump starts my will to want to manifest itself.The stuff I do by myself,is harder.A bullet wont just go off without an external trigger.Thats why alot of magicians use mood altering substances.Or cause themselves pain to trigger a reaction in the mind.



This is very true i think it gives a certain motivation to better yourself making for beter magick and pain is an awesome wat to focus on it
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#27621 - 07/28/09 03:13 PM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: king in yellow]
Domonic Offline
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Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 41
Loc: Edgewood New Mex
personally, this is the subject that i have been stressing over. I would believe so to sacrafice always, it does say NEVER to go against the rules and laws that follow under the watchers, they are not at custom ruling. This though of a loophole is probably the idea that was the mad arabs demise.
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#27678 - 07/29/09 01:48 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: Domonic]
bluj666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
Magick is a very personal thing yet, it is also a literal ritual thing. Depending on what you are doing and attempting to accomplish decides between the two. If all you are wanting is some private personal desire such as cast a spell then Id say take from established practices or others spells and then make it your own. Like if you use a poppet id say to fill it full of the mentioned items and also add your own items that you feel at to what you want. then Make your own spell, mantra and or chant. For things like this the more personal you make it the better for its success. for you have then put into it what is meaningful to you thus attaching and focus your energy and will in to the workings. Such coping what someone else has done makes it very hard to emotionally attach to the working because its no longer personal for you which lessens the chance of success.

Now if you are attempting a ritual such as what it sounds like the creater of this thread is doing, following what is said in the necronomicon would be adviced. I can't say much towards what he or she is doing because ive never read the necronomicon. But if the sacrice is herbs or something of that nature, id stick with it, but if you cant find it then substitute with something with the same characteristics or species. Most rituals such as invoking forces or dieties its best to follow whats writen as it puts one in the mindset of what they are doing and may have important keys to accomplishing what is being attempted, but that does not mean you can not add if you know of a another practice that deals with that same issue and you feel will add to the success of whats being done. Like for example, I could be doing something with satanic magick but will add things from voodoo into it. Both practices that im working with would be aimed towards the same goal and to me adds more power to what im doing.

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#27696 - 07/29/09 07:48 AM Re: watcher sacrifices? [Re: bluj666]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
So, you say that he should conduct his rituals using the Necronomicon, although you've never read it yourself. Brilliant.

I see the Necronomicon written as a jest, to see what fools would buy into it and follow the mumbo-jumbo rituals and symbolism. Most of the precious metals and such are impossible to obtain nowadays, and if you try to follow it to the letter, you'd have to make substitutes for half of the tools used.

Just use your own rituals. Quit being led by the nose.
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