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#8781 - 05/17/08 09:43 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Ringmaster]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
I didn't get hypersensitve, I didn't whine. I'm simply asking you not to. Wether you decide to take the polite question from one man to another and comply or disregard it, is completely in your hands and your choice...

~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8967 - 05/24/08 09:29 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
Sasspra Offline
lurker


Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 3
 Originally Posted By: selene
Sasspra:
I have to say, your post jumps from idea to idea, thus making it rather hard to understand your conclusion. So are you trying to say that in your belief, it is permissible to tell little white lies for the sole purpose of 'keeping the peace'? This is what I gather from your post:

Premise 1: Everyone deceives others to a certain extent.
Premise 2: In some rare cases it is ok to deceive others.
Premise 3: 'White lies' are an acceptable deception when 'keeping the peace'.
Premise 4: The permissibility of deception is based on possible extent of harm.
Premise 5: There is a moral difference between a deception of "destructive action" and deception of "keeping the peace".
Premise 6: There are many people who deceive to get what they want without regard to others.
Premise 7: Some of those who deceive to get what they want are not held accountable.
Premise 8: Those who deceive to get what they want may whine and cry when held accountable.

Honestly, I think this is a very simplistic "moralized" viewpoint. To me, deception is equivalent in all forms. I'm still using it for my own purpose, whether I'm deceiving you as to avoid hurting your feelings and thus having to comfort you afterwards; or, if I'm deceiving you to achieve my own personal goals without regard to you. It makes no difference why I'm doing it, deception is based on what will present best for me.

Selene



I do apologize for jumping from point to point. That was my opinion of deception, albeit a moralized and simplistic one.

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#9228 - 05/30/08 01:23 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Sasspra]
Skippi Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 8
i cant say i believe the threefold law and karma are absolute.. more just something to take into consideration.

if someone does you wrong, i find it important to create your own justice and not expect it to fall from the sky. in effect you are MAKING karma real when you retaliate..

say somone steals your money.. dont just say "oh.. karma.. theyll get whats coming to them"

you cant rely on that. MAKE IT HAPPEN! sometimes everyone fears someone and you have to be the one to step up and put them in their place. the weak people will be glad you did

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#9277 - 05/31/08 02:07 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Skippi]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
 Originally Posted By: Skippi
i cant say i believe the threefold law and karma are absolute.. more just something to take into consideration.

if someone does you wrong, i find it important to create your own justice and not expect it to fall from the sky. in effect you are MAKING karma real when you retaliate..

say somone steals your money.. dont just say "oh.. karma.. theyll get whats coming to them"

you cant rely on that. MAKE IT HAPPEN! sometimes everyone fears someone and you have to be the one to step up and put them in their place. the weak people will be glad you did



OH dear satan!
can't put it any better myself!
personally i have found that the idea of vilgianty (i know i can't spell for shit) justice has always suited me well it's such a shame that the rest of this weak and blind society doesn't share the same views.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#9290 - 05/31/08 08:22 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Ringmaster]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
You guys are talking about cause and effect again and still calling it Karma.

Something is done, to which you retaliate. Cause and effect, cause and effect, cause and effect.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#9293 - 05/31/08 08:27 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
You guys are talking about cause and effect again and still calling it Karma.

Something is done, to which you retaliate. Cause and effect, cause and effect, cause and effect.

Zeph


i see what your saying but i gotta disagree, mainly because the person seeking revenge is doing it by choice it's not like some strange and unknown force is driving them to persue such a vendetta, the only drive for such a thing that i can think of is personal satisfaction and the pleasure of causing pain on someone who has done them wrong wheither it be something big or something little.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#75042 - 02/07/13 01:49 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
Surrounded Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 5
In smaller societies - tribal ones - deception used against other members is a serious ( even lethal ) taboo. Such societies simply cannot survive if their members are involved in deception for the profit of self at the expense of anyone else.
In modern Western societies deception is rampant, but as you can see; the societies are crumbling i n numerous ways. In fact, the deterioration of modern society has reached pathological levels. NO ONE can be trusted anymore. Perhaps this is natural? That is; when human populations and stationary societies reach certain levels of size and complexity, there's a natural trend toward deterioration which includes deception everywhere for every reason.
But another question is; how does the deceiver feel about his/her deception? There are those who point to how different species use deception as a matter of routine in order to survive day-to-day. BUT, do those species employ the deception against members of their own kind? "SOCIOPATH" is a label that is stuck on those humans who openly, routinely, and happily deceive their fellows. But in the case of modern society, its a case of many pots calling many kettles black since damn near everyone deceives in a knee-jerk manner.
I'd say its a matter of personal choice, but I don't employ it. To me its a declaration of impotence and weakness in that if I can't use my intellect and physical form in a straight forward manner to reach my objectives and I have to resort to the warped, twisted pattern of lies and manipulations, I see myself as being much less than I could and should be.

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#75093 - 02/08/13 12:34 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Surrounded]
Le Deluge Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
It is interesting to observe what has become orthodox praxis these days. I doubt many here would deny ever having deceived people, but that is barely the tip of the iceberg. I tend to beckon back to lost concepts such as chivalry, honor, loyalty in the proper circumstances. It would seem deception, narcissism, even odd forms of unenlightened? "selishness" are societal norms. One could argue this is simply human nature, but I see it happening in hyperspeed. Reality TV, seeking fame, self-debasement to achieve same. Arguments from (a)moral agency fail at some point. I'll expand on it all in a future thread.
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#75095 - 02/08/13 01:23 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Surrounded Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 5
I wonder how the one practicing the deception feels when they themselves are deceived?
Furthermore, it might be worth noting by all those who see deception as a desireable means to achieving their goals that there are plenty of personality types "out there" in today's world who hold grudges with a bulldog's grip. And some of these characters will determinedly wait decades for a chance to smite someone who has screwed them over. Usually these grudge holders will met out punishment far in excess to what the slight's impact was on them. In other words, they'll happily - and literally - gut you as if you were a caught fish over the loss of money, time. effort, or if they were emotionally manipulated in some manner by you. In a society where laws are upheld more often than not upheld, this type of retribution may not be too big of a concern, but as society deteriorates and crimes of all sorts increase, the grudge holders will find more and more opportunities to accomplish their desires for revenge without the worry of ever getting caught. Something to bare in mind.

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#75473 - 03/22/13 08:21 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
debra Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/15/13
Posts: 2
Loc: England
I personally think its okay to lie and deceive, everyone around you is doing it all the time, I'm hoping you don't get found out, I myself have just had as special relationship end because I lied to the person concerned it wasn't to gain any material benefit just comfort and sympathy, but if I could do it all over again I guess I'd still make the same mistakes I'd just be more care full to avoid detection
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#75482 - 03/22/13 02:21 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: debra]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: debra
I personally think its okay to lie and deceive, everyone around you is doing it all the time, I'm hoping you don't get found out, I myself have just had as special relationship end because I lied to the person concerned it wasn't to gain any material benefit just comfort and sympathy, but if I could do it all over again I guess I'd still make the same mistakes I'd just be more care full to avoid detection


Because you think that such volitional entities as lying arise in people, are you of the mindset that thinks feelings and will are individual, also?

For example, I have a pen here. In the moment of seeing it there isn't volition, there is just a single actuality (seeing the pen). When various associations concerning it arise, the center of consciousness by seeing the pen shifts. In contrast, let me imagine that an associated idea (lying) arises that this pen is for writing (lies). While an associated idea (lying) is attached, the pen becomes knowledge of how to write lies. But, when the center of a pen is shifted toward writing lies, the pen becomes not a writing instrument--but, rather a thing of your desire (to write lies).

You change when you intentionally lie, debra. Do you want that? I ( a male) know that beauty in another person (female) develops out of honest actions towards one another. It's how I managed to stay married for so long! ;\)
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tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
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[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#76061 - 04/19/13 09:53 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Ringmaster]
Werbinox Offline
member


Registered: 04/06/13
Posts: 118
Tom Waits was once quoted as saying "The truth will set you free. And if it doesn't, lie". Pretty simple that, and brutally honest in its way.

Another example that comes to mind: a scene in Clint Eastwood's movie "White Hunter, Black Heart". An Jewish movie mogul rides in a limo with a young, idealistic movie writer. They are arguing about truth telling. The writer say's "I always think telling the truth is the best thing", to which the mogul replies "If I always told the truth I'd be a lampshade now."

Self-preservation is a right, and even a duty if you want to stay alive and maximize your situation. So long as you don't start believe your own cover-stories, and remain aware of who and what you are and why you are doing what you are doing, there is little to no chance of deceiving yourself in the way you are (sometimes) worried about.
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"We need what is most evil in us for what is best in us" - Nietzsche

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#76631 - 05/24/13 03:33 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Skippi]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6676
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Skippi
i cant say i believe the threefold law and karma are absolute.. more just something to take into consideration.

if someone does you wrong, i find it important to create your own justice and not expect it to fall from the sky. in effect you are MAKING karma real when you retaliate..

say somone steals your money.. dont just say "oh.. karma.. theyll get whats coming to them"

you cant rely on that. MAKE IT HAPPEN! sometimes everyone fears someone and you have to be the one to step up and put them in their place. the weak people will be glad you did


I believe this is a misappropriation of Karma. It doesn't always translate well from East to West. A contextual example of Karma that is rather simplistic enough to understand:

A Serial Killer's Karma is to Kill.

Perhaps this might help:
The Matrix: Karma
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SINJONES.com

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#81566 - 10/26/13 03:39 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: SIN3]
seeker1 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/13/13
Posts: 16
In my opinion.

deception is natural. It is acceptable to deceive in a business environment, because if you don't someone else will. It is acceptable to deceive in social situations to attract what you desire and gain social power, because again, if you don't someone else will. it is okay to seduce for sex, heck its okay and natural to seduce for power.

It is NOT okay to deceive the person you are in a relationship with. unless perhaps they are the original deceiver and you want to turn the tables on them.

If the person loves you and you encouraged these feelings; If they have been kind and done you no wrong; please don't deceive them. Even if your feelings have through, even if your Birthdays next month and you want to hold out for a present. If you no longer love someone stop telling them you love them. If you love them but want to sleep with other people tell them. Don't string along and them crush them randomly, because that hurts someone that has not harmed you. you could staunch their potential as a human for quite sometime. why would you do that to someone you used to love?

I know that this goes against "radical self interest". But this is my opinion.


Edited by seeker1 (10/26/13 03:43 AM)

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#81567 - 10/26/13 03:47 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: seeker1]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6676
Loc: Virginia
General response or response to me personally? Seems a bit off the beaten path of the OP.
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