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#8040 - 04/21/08 01:13 AM Opinions on intentional deception
selene Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/17/08
Posts: 15
I'm curious to what your thoughts are on deceiving someone purposefully for your own good. As an example, I currently am in a profession that certain people find distasteful, and that future employers will likely look down upon. Therefore, I generally tell a cover story to these individuals to protect myself from any negative repercussions. And yes, to answer the most often asked question, I am prepared to deal with consequences if I am "found out".

This practice fits fine with my personal beliefs, but I would like alternate opinions. One thought that I have from time to time is 'am I just deceiving myself through this practice?' Which leads me to think: 'should I simply be brutally honest with these individuals and live with my repercussions?'

My apologies if this is in the wrong forum, I wasn't sure where to place it...!

Many thanks for all intelligent responses,
Selene

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#8041 - 04/21/08 03:10 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Its a dog eat dog world out there. People lie to you constantly. Every time a guy smiles and talks to you, no matter what he says, he only want one thing...

The pharmaceutical industry lies to you. They tell you how great their pills work... invent new disorders and syndromes, make new pills for them... sure they work great, but there are the side effects they brush under the rug...

Politicians, do you think they're honest with you?

Every one is lying to you in someway, and they're making a profit off it it. Its like a game, which you haven't learned to play like them.

Kayla
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#8042 - 04/21/08 03:18 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
Sinistar Offline
member


Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 174
Loc: New York City
Everybody will do it to you so might as well, right? If you're doing it as part of your profession, then be good at it. "Self-preservation is the highest of law."

Interesting that Luc brings up the pharmaceutical companies. I've already got issues with them. People do it us.

Nothing positive ever comes about from brutal honesty. That's why it's "brutal".
_________________________



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#8043 - 04/21/08 05:44 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
psiren Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Spain
Honesty can come back and bite you on the ass. Even when people admire your honesty and openess, they've always got that knowledge about you to use against you if necessary to their own ends. I speak from personal experience, I'm often too open for my own good.
It's not deceiving yourself to omit certain information and have a useful cover story. It's self-protection.
Doesn't everyone lie to prospective employers to some extent?

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#8046 - 04/21/08 09:28 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: psiren]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
"He who stand on the tallest pile of skulls can see the farthest".
"Rise above all, even yourself. Only then can you truly at your greatest."

I might have gotten those quotes a little off but the idea is there. If lying about something makes you in a better position than the outsider, then yes, do it. Do what you have to do to make your life better, not theres.

Think of it this way, everyone is an opponent. Because at one point or another they will screw you over, hurt you, lie about you, do something negative to you in one way or another. So the less your opponent knows about you, the better position you are in.
"What mama don't know can't hurt her." Right? And if they do find out use your cunning intelligence to figure out what your next step is. You are the one that has to make the decision on when to lie and when to tell the truth. You have to make the decision of when it is right and wrong, a positive impact or negative. Asses the situation, and deal with it so it end in your favour. It's your life, the ball is always in yur court, what are you going to do with it? Always think of the possible reprecussions of your actions. It is up to you to find out if what you are doing is worth it or not.

Good luck, and may you be succesful in and, enjoy your work.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8049 - 04/21/08 10:00 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: PigFeeder]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 267
Loc: New Mexico
Yes, I think so, and once upon engaging in such debate, one will come to learn truth is always the best option. to become a Lord of Lies, one needs to become truth...
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#8052 - 04/21/08 10:23 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: PigFeeder]
selene Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/17/08
Posts: 15
@Luciferific: It's rather ironic that you bring up men's desires first in your post because that is exactly what I exploit. Well, women as well but to a much lesser extent.

@Sinistar: Do you really think absolutely nothing positive comes out of brutal honesty? I believe there is a time and place for its use, just that it should be used selectively with certain persons. The employers/people I refer to in my OP are excluded from this, of course.

@psiren: Your last line made me laugh, because it is so true, I remember taking a pre-hire ethics "test" while I was a teenager which had to be answered a certain way in order to be hired. I don't believe anyone would have answered that test honestly and still been considered for the company!

@PigFeeder: I live by "what they don't know won't hurt them" in reference to certain familial figures in my life. Also, I do very much enjoy my work, and it's quite lucrative for me at the present time. It will be interesting to see what happens come summer as the economy continues to worsen.

@97and107: I'm not quite sure I understand what you have posted... I interpret what you mean as one should always present their "truth" as "the truth" and ensure it is accepted as such with whomever they should encounter?

To all: I appreciate your willingness to respond to me. One thing I've always despised about most online forums is that until you have XX number of posts, you tend to be ignored or written off. Granted, we mostly do that to avoid baiting trolls and wasting time with ignorant posters, but it is frustrating to simply be new and not be answered.

Thanks again for all the logical responses,

Selene

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#8076 - 04/21/08 11:34 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
As a hobby, I make a small living off of lying on a daily basis. I play poker. I have to lie. And I am lied to constantly. I find it easy to read an opponent and see if they truly have the hand or not. I also try to disguise my tells as best I can. By learning to read an opponent, I can carry that over into every day interaction in daily life. I can see when a coworker or one of my kids is fibbing. I don't think anyone can claim to being 100% honest in their life.

Secondly, did you ever think that by being active online, you could be found out? Myspace, Facebook, 600club. All are accessible by doing some simple searches based on user names and real names. An employer or lover could google you and find out about your secret life. Be wary about what you share online.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#8078 - 04/22/08 12:02 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Its a dog eat dog world out there. People lie to you constantly. Every time a guy smiles and talks to you, no matter what he says, he only want one thing...



Fuck, I HATE this stereotype. Contrary to popular opinion, men CAN think without using their cock. I can certainly appreciate an attractive female without ulterior motives. When I smile at a woman at work, I'm not thinking about what I want to do to her; I'm thinking about how much money I can get her to spend in my store. If that means doting on her like a little princess because she's putting off the "worship my cuteness" vibe, no problem. But that doesn't mean I want to bone her. In fact, if she's putting off that kind of vibe I'm actually TURNED OFF. Narcissism is transparent and obvious. (Just look at School Bully's posts...sorry, mate.) Actually, few things give me more pleasure than shutting down some sweet thing who thinks she's "all that."

Confidence is one thing, and is certainly alluring, but a pretty woman doesn't automatically send all men into rape-mode. And don't come back with some tired argument about men and their uncontrollable testosterone, or how nature drives the human male to reproduce on a subconscious level. Yes, we are animals. However, we are intelligent animals who can control our erections.
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#8080 - 04/22/08 01:54 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Octavius]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
As a women of the world, I would like to back you on that post Octavious. That type of stereotype only makes it harder for men that aren't like that to be taken at face value and for ones that are easier for them to justify that behaviour.

Good on YOU Octovious, more power to ya!

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#8083 - 04/22/08 07:01 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Octavius]
School Bully Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 142
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: Octavius
Narcissism is transparent and obvious. (Just look at School Bully's posts...sorry, mate.)


The only crime I am guilty of is that the only person I wish to know absolutely and thoroughly well is myself.

I've got my beady little eyes on you, Octavius ... you'll keep.

.
_________________________
.


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#8095 - 04/22/08 03:02 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: fakepropht]
selene Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/17/08
Posts: 15
@fakepropht: I agree with you, I would find it very hard to believe anyone is completely honest in every interaction they encounter. As far as online activity, I do tend to be ever so slightly paranoid and thus restrict what information is shared on any site.
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#8096 - 04/22/08 03:08 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Octavius]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
Yes I agree with you. I became sort of inferiror because I also HATE this stereotype. I've heard it used many times and I get mad everytime. I was debating on answering but you inspired me I must say. I absolutely despise this stereotype. Men can think and converse without the desire for sex. It isn't always about getting laid.. Not everyone has desires they cannot control. I don't know about you Kayla, but I can control myself very well and my goals are hardly ever sex. I have older friends and we talk about many things. One of them beibng women. I have friends who say "Wow I really like her, I'd really like to get to know her". But I know fromthere personality and the thibngs discussed that the goal is merely conversation; a result of finding the person interesting. And by the way, you're all up for "Women and men are equal"? Well.. This speaks for itself.. What men do women do as well. Women are just quiter and less obvious about it.. Most of the time..


~~ Snow ~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8107 - 04/22/08 11:49 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: PigFeeder]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 267
Loc: New Mexico
Yeah? Well I'm shallow...I size up every guy I come across as makeable or not...

All of my friends are fuckable, except that I'm monogamous at heart. Well....not all of them. On some level, sure. I'm a Narcissist...straight up. I love looking at myself in the mirror. Curvy curvy curvy....squeezing my nipples to make my boobs look nice and perky...oh yeah...

Vanity.

XD

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#8108 - 04/23/08 12:00 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: 97and107]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Oh baby! Naomi, that post was *tit*-illating \:\) I think we already talked about this sizing up thing in a different thread. But I was being general with men, just to try and show Serene that men lie, and thats its okay for her to lie also.

K
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#8112 - 04/23/08 06:11 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: 97and107]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Thank you so much, Naomi.

Sorry, Octavius, but sometimes a boner is just a boner... wasn't that Freud?

Physiology does not mean intent or action, but you have to admit... chicks are hot!

Please tell me that you've never glanced at cleavage, or a beautiful curvy (97 and 107) style bunnocks (my word, thank you) - and I won't know what to do.

Monogamous does not equal "dead". At least that's what I keep telling myself...

(Maybe it's just because I'm so damn hot.) \:D
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#8121 - 04/23/08 01:50 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
gods418 Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 12
selene im just curious at what your job really is????
what kinda jod needs lying to men??? hhhmmmmmmm.........

ill be on the lookout for women like these...
_________________________
3 5 2 BOLDLY STAND ERECT

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#8130 - 04/23/08 07:56 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: gods418]
selene Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/17/08
Posts: 15
@97and107: Would you like to borrow my mirror? Really, I won't mind.

@daevid777: Bunnocks? I would associate that as meaning similar to the buttocks of a rabbit. Monogamy? I mean, there is nothing inherently "wrong" with monogamy, but it seems rather boring, and could stagnate rather quickly- just as you pointed out.

@gods418: Actually, I lie to men AND to women. Just men more so. In addition, you could say my profile job description: professional enticer of lust is an accurate summarization of what my work is.

-Selene

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#8141 - 04/24/08 03:16 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 267
Loc: New Mexico
I think people have a right to lie, and I don't condemn them for it. I believe that it may even be beneficial to lie constantly for some people. Right now I think I'm in the zone to just tell the truth for me, and there's nothing wrong with that.

That's the beauty of Satanism to me, we can choose our ethics based on whatever works for us and wherever our own personal truth or paradox lies...

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#8423 - 05/06/08 07:55 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
Sasspra Offline
lurker


Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 3
I think everyone deceives others to an extent, some more than others. In fact, I think in some rare cases it's ok to deceive others. Here's an example: Let's say you have a friend who's trying on an outfit at a store and you already know they like it and are probably going to buy it anyway. You might think it doesn't look good on them, but you tell them otherwise when they ask your opinion because you know they aren't really asking for your opinion, but moreso confirmation.

It all just depends on what extent and how harmful the deception is that really differentiates destructive actions vs. just "keeping the peace". I think there are too many people in this world that have no objection to stepping on others and lying to get what they want (with no regard whatsoever of the damage it might do to others).

I also think they should be careful of what they do because some of them are accustomed to being around people that don't hold them accountable or retaliate. Sooner or later they'll run into a person like that, and when they do, they usually whine and cry when the other person decides to retaliate.


Edited by Sasspra (05/06/08 07:56 AM)

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#8507 - 05/08/08 12:05 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Sasspra]
selene Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/17/08
Posts: 15
Sasspra:
I have to say, your post jumps from idea to idea, thus making it rather hard to understand your conclusion. So are you trying to say that in your belief, it is permissible to tell little white lies for the sole purpose of 'keeping the peace'? This is what I gather from your post:

Premise 1: Everyone deceives others to a certain extent.
Premise 2: In some rare cases it is ok to deceive others.
Premise 3: 'White lies' are an acceptable deception when 'keeping the peace'.
Premise 4: The permissibility of deception is based on possible extent of harm.
Premise 5: There is a moral difference between a deception of "destructive action" and deception of "keeping the peace".
Premise 6: There are many people who deceive to get what they want without regard to others.
Premise 7: Some of those who deceive to get what they want are not held accountable.
Premise 8: Those who deceive to get what they want may whine and cry when held accountable.

Honestly, I think this is a very simplistic "moralized" viewpoint. To me, deception is equivalent in all forms. I'm still using it for my own purpose, whether I'm deceiving you as to avoid hurting your feelings and thus having to comfort you afterwards; or, if I'm deceiving you to achieve my own personal goals without regard to you. It makes no difference why I'm doing it, deception is based on what will present best for me.

Selene

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#8539 - 05/09/08 07:30 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
Personally, little white lies can be the most ridiculous lies ever. Example: If your friend puts on an outfit, don't lie and say it looks good. Tell her to her face, no it makes you look like an idiot. There is a such thing a constructive criticsm. Lying about it won't help her or make your friend better. Now on the subject of lying to people to get your own way in life; if you find it has benifit for you, then yes go for it. One of the many basic ideas of Satanism is to do what it takes and rise above all else. Sometimes secrets from the people and lies to them can better your position over them. It's all in your judgment.

~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8550 - 05/09/08 04:59 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: PigFeeder]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
pigfeeder I do agree with what you are saying fully...
Personally i see nothing wrong with intentionally decieving others at all. I find that the omission of certain things or just a flat out lie to get what one desires is a copmletly natural thing. If I remember right doesn't the deception of others fall into the lesser black magick picture? I personaly take enjoyment out of the minipulation of other people I find it quite amusing that it is so damn easy to fool someone into doing or thinking something that you want them to do or think.
I also think that this act like other things should be thought out and not become a habitual compulsion/impulse to do. Indulgence not compulsion. (I believe that is the qoute correct me if I am wrong it has been a while since I have read TSB)
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#8597 - 05/10/08 07:42 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Ringmaster]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
And I agree with you sir. I don't see anythign necessarily wrong about lying. It lies in your judgement that wether the persone you are lying to deserves the truth. Or they rather don't need to know. As I've stated it is all in your judgement. I don't see really how it falls into black magic picture. [Magick for those who are insecure enough and need to give it a different name to change it up a bit]. But I do believe as I have already previously stated, it is in fact quite 'Satanic' to lie.

[A Satanist usually has the habit of doing whatever they need to do, to get to the top.] If you find lying gets you in a better position, then power to you my friend. But personally I would find it sick for someone to find pleasure in manipulating tthem to an extreme degree. There is a such thing as positive manipulation, but be careful. Although, if you are truly Satanist, you will do what you will because there is no such thing as " What goes around comes around, what you do is done upon you threefold, etc etc. So in short, manipulation can be used, but do it to better yourself, not for the degrading of other or for pleasure.

You are very right, indulgence not compulsion.

~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8601 - 05/10/08 10:24 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: PigFeeder]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: PigFeeder
Although, if you are truly Satanist, you will do what you will because there is no such thing as " What goes around comes around, what you do is done upon you threefold, etc etc.

I have known a Satanist that I respected as a best friend for 20 years that also believed that there was power in the mind… Visualization and meditation were also very high on his list of things that work… He also believed in the phases of the moon and other astrological influence…

To disregard what you reap you sow is just ignorant talk…

Funny he would have called me a fool for putting my words and thoughts on the internet for all to see… Perhaps I am but I do not expect others to see things the way I do…

Lesser magic is real all you need to do is see and understand what lesser magic is as defined by Anton… Deceit can be called lesser magic if it helps you towards your goal… Now greater magic and black magic well those I will leave to others…

Remember in your own words PigFeeder Satanism is what you make it… You did just say that in a thread yesterday I believe… Stand behind what you believe fully and remember what you state as your beliefs from day to day… Otherwise you simply end up a hypocrite…

If you think I am an asshole with holding you to your words and beliefs then trust me, you sir would never handle a friendship with a true Satanist…

Be as you are…

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#8602 - 05/10/08 10:28 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: PigFeeder]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
What goes around comes around


Actually I disagree with that statement. The common law of cause and effect, or 'what goes around comes around' is certainly something that I would think most Satanists beleive in.

That is one of the reasons you need to carefully weigh up what you put out in the world.

I agree however that a beleif in karma or the wiccan three fold law is not one held by Satanists.

Zeph

PS I hadn't seen Ta2zz reply when I wrote that, so sorry for doubling up here and saying a similar thing.



Edited by ZephyrGirl (05/10/08 10:31 PM)
Edit Reason: noticed anothers reply to topic
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#8607 - 05/11/08 01:11 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: ta2zz]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
I'm not in the mood to argue, I'm really tired of arguing here so what I'll do is disregard the condescending attitude..

Satanism IS what you make of it. But no matter what one says, Satanism has it's basic princepals. Like you said to me one time, " Well that's not very Satanic of you." If it was what I made of it then you would never had said that. So in other words Satnism is what you makje of it, but there are basic princepals as I said. I don't worship TSB but one of the main points which I find are a part of our foundation is that, you control your own destiny. There is none of that BS you find in The Holy Bible about "Do upon others what you would have done upon thyself" stuff or " What you send out comes back to you threefold", "What you give out comes back threefold, Sevenfold" [Pagan belief], etc. You're life is what you make of it and there is no 'God' up there controlling your destiny. There is no 'Karma'. Your actions may have consequences but, just because you do something bad doesn't mean something bad is coming to you. Read over TSB and a few other things and tell me if I'm wrong?

I'm simply saying that our destiny is what we make of it. And there is no Christian beliefs of "If you do something bad, God will make sure something bad will happen to you".
This is just my opinion. Everyone has a different idea of Satanism.

Ta2zz, would be nice if you stopped questioning my belief in Satanism. Unless you had some emaculate evidence or theory to say that I was completely not Satanism, I'd ask you to stop. I find it quite the insult for someone to tell me I'm not something, when in fact I live by it everyday...

Good day to you.

~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8609 - 05/11/08 02:30 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: ZephyrGirl]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 267
Loc: New Mexico
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
 Quote:
What goes around comes around


Actually I disagree with that statement. The common law of cause and effect, or 'what goes around comes around' is certainly something that I would think most Satanists beleive in.

That is one of the reasons you need to carefully weigh up what you put out in the world.

I agree however that a beleif in karma or the wiccan three fold law is not one held by Satanists.

Zeph

PS I hadn't seen Ta2zz reply when I wrote that, so sorry for doubling up here and saying a similar thing.



Karma isn't well understood in the western world, it was never some boogeyman coming to get you, instead one could merely call it the Indian conceptualization of time and space and the laws of gravity for all it tells us about "Karma".

Quantum physics today is telling us that we are constantly projecting our reality and this biofeedback is what causes reality itself, that is, we are alone and constantly being battered about (or coddled) by the forces created by our mind...something the Indian mystics knew over 8000 years ago!

Still, it's good to see east and west finally synching up. I'd like to reccomend a video I watched recently - maybe you've already seen it - it helps sum up real karma and not the pop wicca-new age bs we've grokked form the 60's era pseudo-magickal revivalism.

http://www.whatthebleep.com/

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#8613 - 05/11/08 07:16 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: 97and107]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
What if one has no conscience? Harbors no feelings of guilt? It seems as if only those who feel guilty when doing something are the first ones to believe that when something negative happens to them, that it is a form of spriritual payback, whether it's from a deity or karma.

For instance, if I felt guilty somewhere deep down about stealing something expensive, then somewhere down the road I get something expensive stolen from me (or be stupid enough to get caught), it's only natural to think that I'm being punished karmically for my earlier transgression.

However, if I felt completely justified in obtaining this property illegally, and lost no sleep over it whatsoever, would there be a smaller chance (or no chance at all) of it "biting me in the ass", so to speak?

Granted, there are levels where one's conscience (and mental health) should be questioned. Murder (unless you or your family was attacked), grand theft, basically the fundamental boundaries that make up Western society and make it possible for most of us to be safe.

I think karma is only in our minds. It's like seeing shadows in every corner and ghosts in a haunted house--it only affects you if you believe in it. But that's me, and my personal beliefs certainly don't apply to anyone else. I don't expect anyone to agree with me either, but again, that's okay.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#8728 - 05/16/08 07:18 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: PigFeeder]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
 Originally Posted By: PigFeeder

Ta2zz, would be nice if you stopped questioning my belief in Satanism. Unless you had some emaculate evidence or theory to say that I was completely not Satanism, I'd ask you to stop. I find it quite the insult for someone to tell me I'm not something, when in fact I live by it everyday...

~~Snow~~.

pigfeeder:
take this as you will, because I won't shed a tear if I happen to offend you but that is not my intent.
Yes people questioning your belief in something is quite iritating but you don't need to be hypersensitive about it. If anything it should serve as a challenge to gain more knowledge and an oppurtunity to back up your own beliefs not an invite to whine about it.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#8781 - 05/17/08 09:43 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Ringmaster]
PigFeeder Offline
member


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Near Montreal, QC
I didn't get hypersensitve, I didn't whine. I'm simply asking you not to. Wether you decide to take the polite question from one man to another and comply or disregard it, is completely in your hands and your choice...

~~Snow~~.
_________________________
For all murderers, I am the leader.
Forever, Rob, The 49 PigFeeder.
NecroMantic Sin.

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#8967 - 05/24/08 09:29 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
Sasspra Offline
lurker


Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 3
 Originally Posted By: selene
Sasspra:
I have to say, your post jumps from idea to idea, thus making it rather hard to understand your conclusion. So are you trying to say that in your belief, it is permissible to tell little white lies for the sole purpose of 'keeping the peace'? This is what I gather from your post:

Premise 1: Everyone deceives others to a certain extent.
Premise 2: In some rare cases it is ok to deceive others.
Premise 3: 'White lies' are an acceptable deception when 'keeping the peace'.
Premise 4: The permissibility of deception is based on possible extent of harm.
Premise 5: There is a moral difference between a deception of "destructive action" and deception of "keeping the peace".
Premise 6: There are many people who deceive to get what they want without regard to others.
Premise 7: Some of those who deceive to get what they want are not held accountable.
Premise 8: Those who deceive to get what they want may whine and cry when held accountable.

Honestly, I think this is a very simplistic "moralized" viewpoint. To me, deception is equivalent in all forms. I'm still using it for my own purpose, whether I'm deceiving you as to avoid hurting your feelings and thus having to comfort you afterwards; or, if I'm deceiving you to achieve my own personal goals without regard to you. It makes no difference why I'm doing it, deception is based on what will present best for me.

Selene



I do apologize for jumping from point to point. That was my opinion of deception, albeit a moralized and simplistic one.

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#9228 - 05/30/08 01:23 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Sasspra]
Skippi Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 8
i cant say i believe the threefold law and karma are absolute.. more just something to take into consideration.

if someone does you wrong, i find it important to create your own justice and not expect it to fall from the sky. in effect you are MAKING karma real when you retaliate..

say somone steals your money.. dont just say "oh.. karma.. theyll get whats coming to them"

you cant rely on that. MAKE IT HAPPEN! sometimes everyone fears someone and you have to be the one to step up and put them in their place. the weak people will be glad you did

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#9277 - 05/31/08 02:07 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Skippi]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
 Originally Posted By: Skippi
i cant say i believe the threefold law and karma are absolute.. more just something to take into consideration.

if someone does you wrong, i find it important to create your own justice and not expect it to fall from the sky. in effect you are MAKING karma real when you retaliate..

say somone steals your money.. dont just say "oh.. karma.. theyll get whats coming to them"

you cant rely on that. MAKE IT HAPPEN! sometimes everyone fears someone and you have to be the one to step up and put them in their place. the weak people will be glad you did



OH dear satan!
can't put it any better myself!
personally i have found that the idea of vilgianty (i know i can't spell for shit) justice has always suited me well it's such a shame that the rest of this weak and blind society doesn't share the same views.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#9290 - 05/31/08 08:22 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Ringmaster]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
You guys are talking about cause and effect again and still calling it Karma.

Something is done, to which you retaliate. Cause and effect, cause and effect, cause and effect.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#9293 - 05/31/08 08:27 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
You guys are talking about cause and effect again and still calling it Karma.

Something is done, to which you retaliate. Cause and effect, cause and effect, cause and effect.

Zeph


i see what your saying but i gotta disagree, mainly because the person seeking revenge is doing it by choice it's not like some strange and unknown force is driving them to persue such a vendetta, the only drive for such a thing that i can think of is personal satisfaction and the pleasure of causing pain on someone who has done them wrong wheither it be something big or something little.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#75042 - 02/07/13 01:49 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: selene]
Surrounded Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 5
In smaller societies - tribal ones - deception used against other members is a serious ( even lethal ) taboo. Such societies simply cannot survive if their members are involved in deception for the profit of self at the expense of anyone else.
In modern Western societies deception is rampant, but as you can see; the societies are crumbling i n numerous ways. In fact, the deterioration of modern society has reached pathological levels. NO ONE can be trusted anymore. Perhaps this is natural? That is; when human populations and stationary societies reach certain levels of size and complexity, there's a natural trend toward deterioration which includes deception everywhere for every reason.
But another question is; how does the deceiver feel about his/her deception? There are those who point to how different species use deception as a matter of routine in order to survive day-to-day. BUT, do those species employ the deception against members of their own kind? "SOCIOPATH" is a label that is stuck on those humans who openly, routinely, and happily deceive their fellows. But in the case of modern society, its a case of many pots calling many kettles black since damn near everyone deceives in a knee-jerk manner.
I'd say its a matter of personal choice, but I don't employ it. To me its a declaration of impotence and weakness in that if I can't use my intellect and physical form in a straight forward manner to reach my objectives and I have to resort to the warped, twisted pattern of lies and manipulations, I see myself as being much less than I could and should be.

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#75093 - 02/08/13 12:34 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Surrounded]
Le Deluge Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
It is interesting to observe what has become orthodox praxis these days. I doubt many here would deny ever having deceived people, but that is barely the tip of the iceberg. I tend to beckon back to lost concepts such as chivalry, honor, loyalty in the proper circumstances. It would seem deception, narcissism, even odd forms of unenlightened? "selishness" are societal norms. One could argue this is simply human nature, but I see it happening in hyperspeed. Reality TV, seeking fame, self-debasement to achieve same. Arguments from (a)moral agency fail at some point. I'll expand on it all in a future thread.
_________________________
Apres Moi ... Le Deluge

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#75095 - 02/08/13 01:23 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Surrounded Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 5
I wonder how the one practicing the deception feels when they themselves are deceived?
Furthermore, it might be worth noting by all those who see deception as a desireable means to achieving their goals that there are plenty of personality types "out there" in today's world who hold grudges with a bulldog's grip. And some of these characters will determinedly wait decades for a chance to smite someone who has screwed them over. Usually these grudge holders will met out punishment far in excess to what the slight's impact was on them. In other words, they'll happily - and literally - gut you as if you were a caught fish over the loss of money, time. effort, or if they were emotionally manipulated in some manner by you. In a society where laws are upheld more often than not upheld, this type of retribution may not be too big of a concern, but as society deteriorates and crimes of all sorts increase, the grudge holders will find more and more opportunities to accomplish their desires for revenge without the worry of ever getting caught. Something to bare in mind.

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#75473 - 03/22/13 08:21 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
debra Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/15/13
Posts: 2
Loc: England
I personally think its okay to lie and deceive, everyone around you is doing it all the time, I'm hoping you don't get found out, I myself have just had as special relationship end because I lied to the person concerned it wasn't to gain any material benefit just comfort and sympathy, but if I could do it all over again I guess I'd still make the same mistakes I'd just be more care full to avoid detection
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#75482 - 03/22/13 02:21 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: debra]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: debra
I personally think its okay to lie and deceive, everyone around you is doing it all the time, I'm hoping you don't get found out, I myself have just had as special relationship end because I lied to the person concerned it wasn't to gain any material benefit just comfort and sympathy, but if I could do it all over again I guess I'd still make the same mistakes I'd just be more care full to avoid detection


Because you think that such volitional entities as lying arise in people, are you of the mindset that thinks feelings and will are individual, also?

For example, I have a pen here. In the moment of seeing it there isn't volition, there is just a single actuality (seeing the pen). When various associations concerning it arise, the center of consciousness by seeing the pen shifts. In contrast, let me imagine that an associated idea (lying) arises that this pen is for writing (lies). While an associated idea (lying) is attached, the pen becomes knowledge of how to write lies. But, when the center of a pen is shifted toward writing lies, the pen becomes not a writing instrument--but, rather a thing of your desire (to write lies).

You change when you intentionally lie, debra. Do you want that? I ( a male) know that beauty in another person (female) develops out of honest actions towards one another. It's how I managed to stay married for so long! ;\)
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#76061 - 04/19/13 09:53 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Ringmaster]
Werbinox Offline
member


Registered: 04/06/13
Posts: 118
Tom Waits was once quoted as saying "The truth will set you free. And if it doesn't, lie". Pretty simple that, and brutally honest in its way.

Another example that comes to mind: a scene in Clint Eastwood's movie "White Hunter, Black Heart". An Jewish movie mogul rides in a limo with a young, idealistic movie writer. They are arguing about truth telling. The writer say's "I always think telling the truth is the best thing", to which the mogul replies "If I always told the truth I'd be a lampshade now."

Self-preservation is a right, and even a duty if you want to stay alive and maximize your situation. So long as you don't start believe your own cover-stories, and remain aware of who and what you are and why you are doing what you are doing, there is little to no chance of deceiving yourself in the way you are (sometimes) worried about.
_________________________
"We need what is most evil in us for what is best in us" - Nietzsche

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#76631 - 05/24/13 03:33 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: Skippi]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6676
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Skippi
i cant say i believe the threefold law and karma are absolute.. more just something to take into consideration.

if someone does you wrong, i find it important to create your own justice and not expect it to fall from the sky. in effect you are MAKING karma real when you retaliate..

say somone steals your money.. dont just say "oh.. karma.. theyll get whats coming to them"

you cant rely on that. MAKE IT HAPPEN! sometimes everyone fears someone and you have to be the one to step up and put them in their place. the weak people will be glad you did


I believe this is a misappropriation of Karma. It doesn't always translate well from East to West. A contextual example of Karma that is rather simplistic enough to understand:

A Serial Killer's Karma is to Kill.

Perhaps this might help:
The Matrix: Karma
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#81566 - 10/26/13 03:39 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: SIN3]
seeker1 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/13/13
Posts: 16
In my opinion.

deception is natural. It is acceptable to deceive in a business environment, because if you don't someone else will. It is acceptable to deceive in social situations to attract what you desire and gain social power, because again, if you don't someone else will. it is okay to seduce for sex, heck its okay and natural to seduce for power.

It is NOT okay to deceive the person you are in a relationship with. unless perhaps they are the original deceiver and you want to turn the tables on them.

If the person loves you and you encouraged these feelings; If they have been kind and done you no wrong; please don't deceive them. Even if your feelings have through, even if your Birthdays next month and you want to hold out for a present. If you no longer love someone stop telling them you love them. If you love them but want to sleep with other people tell them. Don't string along and them crush them randomly, because that hurts someone that has not harmed you. you could staunch their potential as a human for quite sometime. why would you do that to someone you used to love?

I know that this goes against "radical self interest". But this is my opinion.


Edited by seeker1 (10/26/13 03:43 AM)

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#81567 - 10/26/13 03:47 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: seeker1]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6676
Loc: Virginia
General response or response to me personally? Seems a bit off the beaten path of the OP.
_________________________
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#81570 - 10/26/13 04:26 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: SIN3]
seeker1 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/13/13
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
General response or response to me personally? Seems a bit off the beaten path of the OP.


general response. what do you mean OP?

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#81584 - 10/26/13 02:42 PM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: seeker1]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6676
Loc: Virginia
Thanks for the clarification. Using the reply under the last commentator implies a personal response vs. using the general reply button.

OP = Original Post or Original Poster.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#82389 - 11/17/13 06:16 AM Re: Opinions on intentional deception [Re: SIN3]
Pestilence Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 29
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
I find that to be a good liar you have to also have a very good memory. In that you have to be able to remember what you told and who you told it to and when you told it and why you told it or you're going to come undone in a big, bad way.

It's not that I condone lying, just sometimes telling the truth can get you into more trouble than it's worth.

I tend to save the truth for my dealings with Satan. The mundane can all go to Hell.
_________________________
May Satan release the beast from the holy spirit and unto Hell as I entreat.

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